Old 08-19-2010, 09:05 AM   #121
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whilst looking for something else entirely, i just stumbled upon this:

http://www.greenwych.ca/natbasis.htm

not waded all the way through yet but looks quite interesting.

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Old 08-19-2010, 09:28 AM   #122
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Well, Danii, it is not about what you believe, but what is true. You can believe that Mickey Mouse is the leader of the world, but it is still not the truth. The evolution is the TRUTH, the creationism is just a pathetic 'workaround' to deny the real truth. I do not 'believe' in evolution, I KNOW it does exist.

If you don't believe in real things like evolution, it just show your lack of comprehensive capabilities.

And to believe to some woman who gave birth to a child, that she is a virgin, is only very naive. And the belief that she was flying to the sky, just shows very unintellectual person. Where are the arguments? One particular book says it is true? I can write many books. If only justice courts would be so easy to believe everything without the proof.
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:32 AM   #123
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Dannii didn't do the hi-jacking. She offered her ASKED FOR opinion.
We'll have to agree that you are 100% wrong with that one....

The T&Cs of this thread specifically excludes members of any extremist splinter group of any religious (or otherwise) faction that doesn't subscribe to the observable and accepted proof of evolution from offering their opinions.

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Old 08-19-2010, 09:47 AM   #124
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whilst looking for something else entirely, i just stumbled upon this:

http://www.greenwych.ca/natbasis.htm

not waded all the way through yet but looks quite interesting.
hmmm... i am so far disappointed at the lack of mention of the basiler membrane, frequency dispersion and the development of the human ear but still quite interesting... opinionated but interesting... there's alot to wade thru, tho...(links to follow an' that)

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Old 08-19-2010, 10:18 AM   #125
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That ^^^ was the answer given to the question asked. Pure and simple.
...

Grow the f$%k up...

D
My own reply was based upon people being judged intolerant for disagreeing. That's the part of the answer that wasn't being asked for. With all respect, I don't think you should be judging who is grown up and who is not. It is a matter of what we define as adult behavior. And some of us act as naive children in adulthood - not just people who follow blindly the path of faith, but also "Darwinist" politics and ideologies.
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:28 AM   #126
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And some of us act as naive children in adulthood.
if only we all did... was it r buckminster fuller who said 'dare to be naive...' ?
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:40 AM   #127
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I was simply stating my belief. I wasn't attempting to force anyone into that belief. I DO believe evolution is ludicrous. You clearly do not. I accept that but that doesn't mean I have to agree with you, nor do you have to agree with me.

..To each their own.
"Ludicrous" is the judgment of an idea, not the reason for its rejection. Likewise, "Stresslessness" judges you defective for doubting Evolution. Not to judge, but both you guys are on opposite extremes of the same issue: witnesses testifying without verifiable proof; and a deeper insinuation of one another's worth based upon how we feel about that person's belief.

That is how it comes across, to me anyway. Judge not or <<<<<<ZAP!!!!>>>>>
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:41 AM   #128
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if only we all did... was it r buckminster fuller who said 'dare to be naive...' ?
There is a huge gulf between childlike and childishness. I was talking about the latter.
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:43 AM   #129
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There is a huge gulf between childlike and childishness. I was talking about the latter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller

*edit* just re-read your post - gotcha - doh!

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Old 08-19-2010, 10:56 AM   #130
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"Ludicrous" is the judgment of an idea, not the reason for its rejection. Likewise, "Stresslessness" judges you defective for doubting Evolution. Not to judge, but both you guys are on opposite extremes of the same issue: witnesses testifying without verifiable proof; and a deeper insinuation of one another's worth based upon how we feel about that person's belief.
I know In fact I am not so extreme in my life, but I like to provoke extremists by showing them a mirror, but they refuse to see the image. In fact, I do not believe in satan, this would be stupid of course. Only christians believe in satan.
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:00 AM   #131
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller

*edit* just re-read your post - gotcha - doh!
I know about Bucky. We have one of his Geodesic domes here in Toronto.
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:03 AM   #132
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I know In fact I am not so extreme in my life, but I like to provoke extremists by showing them a mirror, but they refuse to see the image. In fact, I do not believe in satan, this would be stupid of course. Only christians believe in satan.
Actually, I was pointing you out as an extremist too. Never mind this "they" stuff. You are a "they" in what you wrote to Danni. I think we all need to be careful not just to talk at random in strong and often hurtful terms (demons, idiots, morons, Lefties, Repugs, etc.) that can hurt other people's feelings.
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:05 AM   #133
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I know about Bucky. We have one of his Geodesic domes here in Toronto.
he's not so well known round these parts, i came across a quote of his in the sleeve of an add n to x record many moons ago. much like tesla, his ideas aren't that much publicised and one wonders why...
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:09 AM   #134
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he's not so well known round these parts, i came across a quote of his in the sleeve of an add n to x record many moons ago. much like tesla, his ideas aren't that much publicised and one wonders why...
It's those pesky "theys" again! Give it time, we're evolving spiritually. [doh!].
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:13 AM   #135
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oh, them!
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:46 AM   #136
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I LIKE TURTLES!
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:55 AM   #137
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I LIKE TURTLES!
You mean this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y ?
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Old 08-19-2010, 12:56 PM   #138
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my spoon is too big
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Old 08-19-2010, 12:59 PM   #139
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my spoon is too big
I AM A BANANA!
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Old 08-19-2010, 01:07 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Dannii View Post
I personally believe God created music. I also believe He created us in His image and gave us musical ability and appreciation.
I no longer believe in evolution either. To me, it is a ludicrous concept.
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
That ^^^ was the answer given to the question asked. Pure and simple.

The REST of you jumped all over the answer because it did not suit YOUR own thoughts/beliefs or lack of.

Grow the f$%k up...

D
I don't think so, because:

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I mean let's assume for the sake of discussion that evolution is responsible for all of our features, and those of all other animals.
If one doesn't like the assumption being made for me it would be logical to simply not post in this discussion.

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Old 08-19-2010, 02:26 PM   #141
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I mean let's assume for the sake of discussion that evolution is responsible for all of our features, and those of all other animals.


In the moment you exclude arbitrarily one possibility, you change your topic from a real truth searching to a mere game of "who create the more verosimil possibilitie". You can still convince the jury, but that doesnt means it´s true.


btw: I have seen others nice forums like this one go to the "hell", sorry for the religious word, because religion and politics discussions, instead of the main topic.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:48 PM   #142
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In the moment you exclude arbitrarily one possibility, you change your topic from a real truth searching to a mere game of "who create the more verosimil possibilitie". You can still convince the jury, but that doesnt means it´s true.
The issue is though that the explanation of extremist christians is so simplistic that what they believe is such a given with threads like this that there is no point saying it at all. Especially when it is specifically asked not to be given in the OP.

Signatures like these would suffice....

- God did it.

- God made it.

- It's because God wanted it.

- God moves in ways we mere mortals cannot understand.

- I am superior to you in every way because only I have access to the Truth and in fact all the knowledge you have studied towards attaining your entire life, along with the libraries of the scientific communities of the world are all wrong because some rent-boy rimming born-again pastor in some vocal but otherwise obscure sect of "christianity" says so.

The majority of Christians have transcended the notion of destroying of science in the same way that the crusaders were guilty of doing 1000 years ago. Imagine where the world would be today if all the collections of scientific Islamic texts and scholars that were destroyed in the name of Christ back then were allowed to live.

It can't happen again.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:08 PM   #143
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The issue is though that the explanation of extremist christians is so simplistic that what they believe is such a given with threads like this that there is no point saying it at all. Especially when it is specifically asked not to be given in the OP.

Signatures like these would suffice....

- God did it.

- God made it.

- It's because God wanted it.

- God moves in ways we mere mortals cannot understand.

- I am superior to you in every way because only I have access to the Truth and in fact all the knowledge you have studied towards attaining your entire life, along with the libraries of the scientific communities of the world are all wrong because some rent-boy rimming born-again pastor in some vocal but otherwise obscure sect of "christianity" says so.

The majority of Christians have transcended the notion of destroying of science in the same way that the crusaders were guilty of doing 1000 years ago. Imagine where the world would be today if all the collections of scientific Islamic texts and scholars that were destroyed in the name of Christ back then were allowed to live.

It can't happen again.
Im sorry to say this, but even a simplistic explanation can be true, and a more reasonable, can be false.

I understand your annoyance with religious groups that use their religion to the more obscure and non-sense things, but the idea of a "Creator" or "Disegner" is not exclusive of christians. Is interesting that you mentioned the islamic science. I can assure that that "scientist" were believers in a Creator, in a similar way that lot of renaissence and modern era scientist were.
So, sorry to say, i believe that if we are talking about of prejudice, at least in this discussion, it is not much very clear that it is from religious people, since from what i read, "evolution guys" are posting like fundamentalist ones.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:30 PM   #144
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ok, this is a random way off question i have thought about sometimes. have you ever wondered why music exists?

I mean let's assume for the sake of discussion that evolution is responsible for all of our features, and those of all other animals.

but then why or how have we evolved the abilty to create and have the appreciation for music?

you know?
Ha crap...another debate or Creationism and the evolution theory :P (this is a joke so please don't messed up the thread...there is already another messed up thread for that in lounge!)

The most accepted theory about how music appear is because humans needed to communicate from settlement to settlement. which makes perfect sens considering how much volume can come out of a basic 8 inches djembe...I really don't see why you would need that many decibels to dance and cut through the crickets at night.

If you want to believe God gave humans a djembe then just do...obviously nobody's point of view is gonna change based on these thread so we might as well get back to friendly talk and leave religious and beliefs debate elsewhere than in threads here.

Even if am sure someone can find a way to flame me with this post but please refrain to do so and let's just can the religious and beliefs debates...nothing good comes out of them.
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Old 08-19-2010, 04:09 PM   #145
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Im sorry to say this, but even a simplistic explanation can be true, and a more reasonable, can be false.

I understand your annoyance with religious groups that use their religion to the more obscure and non-sense things, but the idea of a "Creator" or "Disegner" is not exclusive of christians. Is interesting that you mentioned the islamic science. I can assure that that "scientist" were believers in a Creator, in a similar way that lot of renaissence and modern era scientist were.
So, sorry to say, i believe that if we are talking about of prejudice, at least in this discussion, it is not much very clear that it is from religious people, since from what i read, "evolution guys" are posting like fundamentalist ones.
Apart from the last paragraph, I totally agree with you.

The Islamic and Christian faiths are obviously not incompatible with the idea that God/Allah is an omnipotent being. Where the extremism "christians" are arrogant to disgusting measures is that they assume the One to be so limited that the beautiful possibility of Divine Intervention cannot be true because they have.... *cough*.... *splutter*.... added up all the ages of the people in the Old Testament to get the age of the world.

As for the last paragraph, let's forget about evolution for one moment. Let's just talk about geology and geography. Eye-witness accounts (which is apparently important in their silly minds) of rock strata forming, the analysis of previously formed strata, the ability of geologists to predict where oil and coal is located based on extrapolated knowledge of where ancient forests where and how they have been transported across borders since by continental drift. So much of our lives seem separate from this scientific knowledge, yet we are totally dependent on it.

These applications of science enable extremist creationists to charge up their phones and power their computers to spread nonsense about the world, yet (again forgetting about evolution for a moment) you cannot on the one hand accept the benefits of research and exploration that accurately relies on and reaps the benefits of a model of the Earth that is billions of years old and at the same time say it is 10,000 years old.

I assume by their logic that "creationists" will stay in their homes when the Big One is predicted along the San Andreas fault.

And again I have to assert that the views of these extremists are not representative of the vast majority of Christians. This "born again" extremism is a very new phenomenon.

Finally, converts to the "born agains" are never had when they are doing all right. They are got when they are down and nearly out or when they are children and just want to love mummy and daddy.
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Old 08-19-2010, 04:14 PM   #146
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Stephen Mithen wrote an interesting book on the evolution of music called "The singing neanderthals" - too much to go into here but a great read
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Old 08-19-2010, 04:25 PM   #147
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if my dog is lying next to me on the bed, as soon as i start singing or playing my guitar she jumps off the bed and runs down stairs! So maybe humans evolved to make music to scare animals as a survival thing.
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Old 08-19-2010, 04:54 PM   #148
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if my dog is lying next to me on the bed, as soon as i start singing or playing my guitar she jumps off the bed and runs down stairs! So maybe humans evolved to make music to scare animals as a survival thing.
It all depends on how many wrong notes you it per measures! :P Many it's just your dog sending you a message
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Old 08-19-2010, 04:59 PM   #149
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Sound asleep, I apologise for misinterpreting your statement. I never intended to derail your thread. I simply intended to answer your question with my perspective on "why music?"
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......I mean let's assume for the sake of discussion that evolution is responsible for all of our features, and those of all other animals.....
Here's a simple analogy I hope explains how I interpreted your quoted statement...

Let's assume I get pulled over by a traffic cop who's radar gun registered my speed as 20 percent above the limit, yet my speedometer registered the legal speed. Either the radar gun is wrong (which is known to happen) or my speedo is wrong (which is also known to happen). Exactly which occurred we are not certain.
The traffic cop then says to me, "Let's assume for the sake of discussion that you travelling 20 percent above the speed limit is responsible for me writing you a speeding ticket."
I would not interpret that as the cop saying to me, "You are not allowed to respond to me with your belief on how fast you were travelling."
I would say to the cop, "Officer, my speedo stated that I was travelling at the legal limit."

Now if the cop had stated, "Let's assume for the sake of discussion that you travelling 20 percent above the speed limit is responsible for me writing you a speeding ticket. Do not debate with me. You may respond later to the infringements court with your claim", then I would reluctantly do what the cop requested.
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Old 08-19-2010, 05:06 PM   #150
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let's assume assumptions can be be very misleading , and may also be divisive.

for instance, children usually make the assumption that their parents are right about stuff, even when it's not in keeping with what other parents think.

Not every parent can be right about stuff, so many children grow up not knowing true from false - until they investigate for themselves that is.

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Old 08-19-2010, 05:12 PM   #151
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let's assume assumptions can be be very misleading , and may also be divisive.
Indeed.
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Old 08-19-2010, 05:18 PM   #152
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Guys, please note I was not intentionally ignoring the rest of Ted's reply. He was editing his reply as I was responding to his post

Also, for the record, there are a number of people here making general assumptions that I am an unintelligent person with no background or interest in scientific research. Clearly, these people have no idea of my background or qualifications. Perhaps a little less assumption, as Ted so eloquently stated, would be good.
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Old 08-19-2010, 05:44 PM   #153
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......I mean let's assume for the sake of discussion that evolution is responsible for all of our features, and those of all other animals.....
I really don't see how this could be interpreted any other way than as-is. People do the above all the time in discussions, TV shows, books, articles whatever. It's how you frame a discussion to cover certain areas that would otherwise be ruined by not creating the setting for the discussion. Notice the use of the word "discussion" not "debate"? Trying to bend his request into valid reasons to ignore it do nothing but prove the reason he requested it. Please start another thread with different criteria and state beliefs that are outside sound asleep's request there. I don't see what is so hard about that other than the undeniable desire to be heard or have the last word regardless of what he so politely asked. I could understand the misinterpretation followed by "oops I'm sorry" then staying out of it but here we go with the next 50 posts of how it was OK to derail what he hoped to talk about. Showing respect via actions (or lack of them) is more important than having the last word.

Back to the original question...

I still think there are multiple reasons, mostly communication of emotion that words simply cannot transfer. As far as rhythm it simply makes sense to keep beats (like the pound of a hammer) at somewhat equal intervals. Who wants to hammer a nail or walk by constantly speeding up and slowing down? Its much more natural to even things out a little and that is easier to "autopilot" without thinking about it.

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Old 08-19-2010, 05:52 PM   #154
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Guys, please note I was not intentionally ignoring the rest of Ted's reply. He was editing his reply as I was responding to his post

Also, for the record, there are a number of people here making general assumptions that I am an unintelligent person with no background or interest in scientific research. Clearly, these people have no idea of my background or qualifications. Perhaps a little less assumption, as Ted so eloquently stated, would be good.
I can say I am not one of them. I know I made some strong comments lately, I do have very definitive opinions and point of views and am very convinced about them and agree with myself in a very definitive way

BUT anyone considering someone unintelligent or stupid because they don't agree the least bit with someone else point of view or beliefs is not exactly showing signs of intelligence him(her)self. A stupid person buys everything he/she is told or presented at face value and don't question anything and just follows...you're light years away from that and it's obvious. But you're still wrong

When's this thread being moved to the lounge? We are not exactly talking about Reaper here!! lol
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Old 08-19-2010, 05:53 PM   #155
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I have a friend who like to think he plays twelve bar blues, most of the time though it's 9-10 or 11 bar blues. he gets upset if you tell him it's wrong, he says that's the way he likes to play it - I should also add that he has no idea how many bars there are and doesn't care, he thinks "twelve bar blues" is the name of the song. So who's right?
You.

Is this a trick question?
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Old 08-19-2010, 06:15 PM   #156
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I have a friend who like to think he plays twelve bar blues, most of the time though it's 9-10 or 11 bar blues. he gets upset if you tell him it's wrong, he says that's the way he likes to play it - I should also add that he has no idea how many bars there are and doesn't care, he thinks "twelve bar blues" is the name of the song. So who's right??
Who cares who's right? It doesn't matter really, if he's having fun and making music that's all that matters unless *he* wants to do it differently. There should be no rules
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Old 08-19-2010, 06:41 PM   #157
Paradiddle
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My Theory.

Music evolved over time.

The most primitive cultures had rhythm instruments. Two sticks hit together, and eventually drums.

Thousands of years later came simple flutes.

Thousands of years later came plucked string instruments.

There was no musical harmony for thousands of years.

Orchestration came much later.

All of this developed in different locations, at different rates. Sometimes it involved sharing of ideas. Sometimes it was done in isolation.
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Old 08-19-2010, 08:06 PM   #158
Bezmotivnik
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Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
Who cares who's right?
Ted, apparently. He asked.

Words have meanings. His friend is obviously laboring under a misunderstanding of them.
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:12 PM   #159
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thinking out loud... on rhythm - anyone mentioned heartbeats yet? read somewhere that all mammals live out a similar amount of heart beats over their life time, hummingbird and blue whale for example the birds heart pounds a lot faster than the whales and it lives a shorter life span but both animals hearts will beat out approximately x number of beats before they die a natural death. one would assume this would effect their perception of time (does a life time always feel like a life time regardless of species and *actual* time spent on earth?) which reminds me of a radio show i heard where they sped up whale song and slowed down bird song to create a duet. can't remember how scientific it was.
at what point does a rhythm become a tone? if i could beat out a rhythm at a thousand beats per second you would hear a 1k tone.
there is an ancient hut in england, somewhere near stone henge, i think, with one slim entrance that a grown man can just about squeeze through that was found to allow the perfect view of the rising sun on the longest day of the year. it also had some very specific geometric designs and spirals painted at specific points on walls and ceiling which mathematically matched up to standing waves present in the structure, which turned out to have some very peculiar acoustic properties. for example, one could be in one position humming a particular note and not hear much of anything near where you were humming whilst creating a very loud tone on the other side of the room quite some distance away or conversely not be heard anywhere else but deafeningly loudly in close proximity to the source. they reckon the ancients had all night parties in there to celebrate summer solstice. there would be fires and therefore smoke and they would have danced and drummed which would kick up dust. they would sing and chant and generally have a good time. then the sun would rise creating an intense shaft of light to cut through the room from that skinny entrance, highlighting a slice of that smoke and dust, making visible to the eye all those resonant frequencies trapped in the air. they could see the sounds. and they painted them on the walls.
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:19 PM   #160
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Guys, please note I was not intentionally ignoring the rest of Ted's reply. He was editing his reply as I was responding to his post

Also, for the record, there are a number of people here making general assumptions that I am an unintelligent person with no background or interest in scientific research. Clearly, these people have no idea of my background or qualifications. Perhaps a little less assumption, as Ted so eloquently stated, would be good.
Sorry Dannii, but we think about you as you show yourself on the forum.
I am god! You can't prove me wrong! (I shifted the burden of proof, as most religious ppl do) Sorry if this is offensive to you, but I don't feel bad telling my opinion, because first of all, the op kindly excluded "anti-evolution" people from this thread.
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