Another computer thread.. I think I found a deal

[thequietroom]

I can get this for $699 from Dell. It seems to be a pretty smokin deal. Anyone know off hand anything I should worry about with using a Dell for a DAW (chipsets etc..)



XPS 8700
basic details

Intel Core i7-4790 3.6GHz (Turbo Boost to 4GHz) Quad-Core HASWELL; 8GB RAM (4x2); 1TB HDD; DVD burner; 802.11n + gigabit + bluetooth 4.0; Windows 7 64bit Professional; NVIDIA Geforce GT720 1GB; 1yr warranty



Sorry i just realized this may not be the best forum for this.. mods pls move if need be

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by thequietroom

Anyone know off hand anything I should worry about with using a Dell for a DAW (chipsets etc..)

Noise maybe.

[stratotak]

Thing I dont like about buying Dell,HP,Acer,etc..Especially at end of hardware life cycle is no future upgrade ability .
That has a 1150 socket board.That computer is full of at end of life cycle of parts.Processor,memory,etc. Future upgrade ability is a no go. In 2-3 years If you ever decide you want to upgrade to a newer faster processor you pretty much have to buy a new PC.
If you just build your own and want to upgrade you can just swap in a newer motherboard,cpu and whatever RAM will be in 3-4 years from now. DDR5????
For $600-700 you could build your own. You could still build a 1150/DDR3 system and If 2-3 years from now you could just spend a couple hundred bucks to upgrade it.

[thequietroom]

Originally Posted by stratotak

Thing I dont like about buying Dell,HP,Acer,etc..Especially at end of hardware life cycle is no future upgrade ability .
That has a 1150 socket board.That computer is full of at end of life cycle of parts.Processor,memory,etc. Future upgrade ability is a no go. In 2-3 years If you ever decide you want to upgrade to a newer faster processor you pretty much have to buy a new PC.
If you just build your own and want to upgrade you can just swap in a newer motherboard,cpu and whatever RAM will be in 3-4 years from now. DDR5????
For $600-700 you could build your own. You could still build a 1150/DDR3 system and If 2-3 years from now you could just spend a couple hundred bucks to upgrade it.

Where are you finding the parts? I've quickly pieced systems together window shopping at newegg and cant get close to this for 600-700

I can get close with pricewatch vendors but by the time I pay shipping from 3 or 4 vendors.. self defeating

I typically don't do a lot of upgrades.. I have kids that will probably be getting hand-me-downs as we cycle through pc's every 5 years or so.

I would possibly re-consider building one.. but I cant get close to 6-700 for an i7 system with an OS (i need an OS also).

Used to build all my systems but hassling with retailers over a couple defective motherboards kinda took the fun out.


Maybe im not looking at the right places.

[msmucr]

Seems to be good buy to me.
Friend of mine has similar HP elite PC (closest competitor to DELL range, you mentioned).
From my experience, it is not so hot with future upgrades (most people swaps whole PCs anyway). Maybe I would specify different arrangement of memory (2x4GB), that is reasonable for hassle-free upgrade to 16GB later. It will be maybe few percent slower in memory benchmarks, but it is IME almost undetectable during normal workload.

And generally what do you gain and loose with that kind of PC.
+ complete system with OS without necessary component matching
+ support for whole package
+ usually good thermal design
+ motherboard without overclocker autotuning features (i take that as advantage)
+ stability
+ good price

- sometimes worse case (eg. thin sheet metal) than what you can build by yourself by using somthing like Arctic Cooling or step-up with Lian-Li, Silversone (but this is anyway 150-300 USD premium by model, you'll choose)
I don't have direct experience with particular DELL, but this needs to be personally checked, sometimes if there is good mechanical construction and reinforcements there are no issues like rattling etc. even with thin plates.
- expandability (drive bays count, weaker PS for gamer VGA cards)

I don't know, how quiet it is, but mentioned HP is comparable to better component builds. If you need something really silent, you'll likely pay another 150-200 bucks for damping material, silent fans and non-stock CPU cooler.

EDIT: Sorry, you've also asked for chipset. I think Z87 will be fine, USB performance and compatibility is best IMO, same with SATA controller. I don't see any reason, why this won't work well with DAW.

Michal

[thequietroom]

Originally Posted by msmucr

Seems to be good buy to me.
Friend of mine has similar HP elite PC (closest competitor to DELL range, you mentioned).
From my experience, it is not so hot with future upgrades (most people swaps whole PCs anyway). Maybe I would specify different arrangement of memory (2x4GB), that is reasonable for hassle-free upgrade to 16GB later. It will be maybe few percent slower in memory benchmarks, but it is IME almost undetectable during normal workload.

And generally what do you gain and loose with that kind of PC.
+ complete system with OS without necessary component matching
+ support for whole package
+ usually good thermal design
+ motherboard without overclocker autotuning features (i take that as advantage)
+ stability
+ good price

- sometimes worse case (eg. thin sheet metal) than what you can build by yourself by using somthing like Arctic Cooling or step-up with Lian-Li, Silversone (but this is anyway 150-300 USD premium by model, you'll choose)
I don't have direct experience with particular DELL, but this needs to be personally checked, sometimes if there is good mechanical construction and reinforcements there are no issues like rattling etc. even with thin plates.
- expandability (drive bays count, weaker PS for gamer VGA cards)

I don't know, how quiet it is, but mentioned HP is comparable to better component builds. If you need something really silent, you'll likely pay another 150-200 bucks for damping material, silent fans and non-stock CPU cooler.

EDIT: Sorry, you've also asked for chipset. I think Z87 will be fine, USB performance and compatibility is best IMO, same with SATA controller. I don't see any reason, why this won't work well with DAW.

Michal

Thank you!

[karbomusic]

DAW wise it should be fine. What you want to be aware of is replacing parts. DELL is especially bad sometimes for making some random part proprietary then you have to pay them 200.00 for a 30.00 part or search out a replacement hiding somewhere. It' the reason I left DELL after my machine died a couple years ago simply due to bad PSU, DELL wanted 230.00 and I was down for days for something I should have been able to pick up at any major retailer for 15% of that price.

[suleiman]

Im slightly confused :

Why would we go for desktops instead of laptops , especially if there is no go regarding upgrading ?

Can't you get an i7 with 8 gb RAM for around $ 750. Lord knows its way more covenient ...

[msmucr]

Originally Posted by suleiman

Im slightly confused :

Why would we go for desktops instead of laptops , especially if there is no go regarding upgrading ?

Can't you get an i7 with 8 gb RAM for around $ 750. Lord knows its way more covenient ...

It can be easily reversed :-)
Why go for laptop at place of normal computer (and go with crowds of people today), which has limited expandability, lower power (for example mobile low voltage i7 isn't same as regular i7).
Lord knows its way more convenient to work with regular keyboard, mouse and 24 inch screen.

You can of course connect external monitor and peripherals to notebook, but you actually pay two times for it. You can also buy high-performance notebook, but you'll either pay premium (3x more for top of line Thinkbook, HP Elite or Apple MacBook Pro) or accept mobility compromise (eg. 3.1kg gaming notebook, which is noisy, runs hot and looks like spare sun roof to car )

Michal

[thequietroom]

Originally Posted by suleiman

Im slightly confused :

Why would we go for desktops instead of laptops , especially if there is no go regarding upgrading ?

Can't you get an i7 with 8 gb RAM for around $ 750. Lord knows its way more covenient ...

I have a small but comfy little recording desk.. A laptop on top of it would be cluttery with cords keyboard etc. My DAW is pretty much a dedicated DAW with not much else going on with it. I have phones and tablets and even a laptop (from my work) for internet fiddling.

I also have 2 large 3.5 in drives (one for samples and one for projects) that I will add to the desktop.

Trying to do this with a laptop and external drives would be a mess for me. I don't have any desire for it to be portable.

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by suleiman

Im slightly confused :

Why would we go for desktops instead of laptops , especially if there is no go regarding upgrading ?

Can't you get an i7 with 8 gb RAM for around $ 750. Lord knows its way more covenient ...

Trust me - if yo CAN go for a desktop forget laptops.

As you know I have both and also have good RME cards with both.

The laptop rig is strictly for on the road.

[suleiman]

So in summary , laptops are :

- noisy
- need peripherals
- low spec even for the same specs

Having said that, i have been making music exclusively on laptops for 12 years so i dont know what im missing. Yes there are peripherals like an audio interface and mouse / keyboard but still they work great for me till now.

[thequietroom]

Originally Posted by suleiman

So in summary , laptops are :

- noisy
- need peripherals
- low spec even for the same specs

Having said that, i have been making music exclusively on laptops for 12 years so i dont know what im missing. Yes there are peripherals like an audio interface and mouse / keyboard but still they work great for me till now.

Its probably to some degree just what your used to. There are some reasons at home I want my DAW to be a desktop.. but that doesn't mean you have to have a desktop. Its good times when our phones have quad core CPU's, laptops make great DAWs..etc, you have options with technology now.

I just personally find that when considering the price.. what my goals are, and my home recording setup is made of.. the desktop format is still what I would prefer for DAW. My current DAW is a core 2 duo e8400 and frankly.. it still does the job pretty well. Im just starting to run into Vista compatibility things.. and its not as stable as it once was. Also.. I can't play any guitar soft amps without an irritating amount of latency.

I did a little research and found that others have been able to succesfully swap PSUs on these 8700s (that was a concern as my last 2 needed a PSU replacement at some point..) so short of a MB failure It looks to be user expandable/maintainable enough for me.

I usuall steer clear of Dell, HP etc for reasons noted in this thread but this particular package seems to have pretty much what I think I need so I pulled the trigger.

$720 shipped and taxed

now to brace myself and get ready to try and reload and authorize all my softwares..

[ivansc]

Dont forget I use both.

The desktop really is necessary for anything I do that uses multiple VSTis. I have yet to see an affordable laptop that can run a pile of ram, i7 cpu and also has enough reliable USB ports,et.
My lappy is under 2 years old and three of the four usb ports are fucked already through no fault of my own.
Powered USB hub saved the day but the whole system is becoming less and less portable by the minute.

[stratotak]

Originally Posted by thequietroom

Where are you finding the parts? I've quickly pieced systems together window shopping at newegg and cant get close to this for 600-700

I can get close with pricewatch vendors but by the time I pay shipping from 3 or 4 vendors.. self defeating

I typically don't do a lot of upgrades.. I have kids that will probably be getting hand-me-downs as we cycle through pc's every 5 years or so.

I would possibly re-consider building one.. but I cant get close to 6-700 for an i7 system with an OS (i need an OS also).

Used to build all my systems but hassling with retailers over a couple defective motherboards kinda took the fun out.


Maybe im not looking at the right places.

Newegg.Not a i7-4790 but a i7-4770 for $575

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboB...=Combo.1626952

My bad. I thought that one was a total system.Case,PSU,Drives,etc..I have seen a i7 complete combo for $600 range on there.

EDIT: Heres a i7-490 combo complete for under $700.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboB...=Combo.1751405

[thequietroom]

Originally Posted by stratotak

Newegg.Not a i7-4790 but a i7-4770 for $575

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboB...=Combo.1626952

My bad. I thought that one was a total system.Case,PSU,Drives,etc..I have seen a i7 complete combo for $600 range on there.

EDIT: Heres a i7-490 combo complete for under $700.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboB...=Combo.1751405

Thats pretty good but after adding windows and a dvd drive it goes over.. but not too much. This is a pretty nice set up. I would be happy with that one.

I had a bad experience building pcs on 2 occasions where the mother board was faulty. The first was not faulty in a way that was obvious. Only 3D intensive programs would freeze up. The Vendor told me it was a video card problem.. (this was when best buy would let you return video cards).. I tried 3 different ones.. tried every driver/firmware update possible.. bios settings etc.. then the vendor told me it must be a microsoft Driect x problem..

It took forever for them to send a new board (which immediately resolved the trouble). I also built one for a relative and after them double charging for all the parts (and shipping 2 of everything).. there was a bad MB there too. Sort of luckily..since there was 2 shipped i swapped it out. She had to dipute charges with the bank to settle that one..

Ive had succesful builds, but sort of like working on cars... i got it out of my system when I was younger. Maybe next time I will look closer at one of these combos.. Im guessing they are known compatible parts?

[joelsampson]

Originally Posted by thequietroom

I can get this for $699 from Dell. It seems to be a pretty smokin deal. Anyone know off hand anything I should worry about with using a Dell for a DAW (chipsets etc..)



XPS 8700
basic details

Intel Core i7-4790 3.6GHz (Turbo Boost to 4GHz) Quad-Core HASWELL; 8GB RAM (4x2); 1TB HDD; DVD burner; 802.11n + gigabit + bluetooth 4.0; Windows 7 64bit Professional; NVIDIA Geforce GT720 1GB; 1yr warranty

I've been look at this as well. I could use an upgrade. It only has one card slot open, but that's probably ok. I would need to add an IEEE 1394 Firewire card to mine. I don't know where you live, but Sam's Club has a slightly better model, but it's $849.

[thequietroom]

Originally Posted by joelsampson

I've been look at this as well. I could use an upgrade. It only has one card slot open, but that's probably ok. I would need to add an IEEE 1394 Firewire card to mine. I don't know where you live, but Sam's Club has a slightly better model, but it's $849.

You also could take the video card out. It also has integrated Intel video

[Jbyrd]

Originally Posted by joelsampson

I've been look at this as well. I could use an upgrade. It only has one card slot open, but that's probably ok. I would need to add an IEEE 1394 Firewire card to mine. I don't know where you live, but Sam's Club has a slightly better model, but it's $849.

Check the PCI slots , it has 1 pci e x16 and 3 PCIe x1. Will FireWire run on a x1 slot? The manual says its x4 but after some digging on a dell post it was deemed x1

http://en.community.dell.com/support...513/t/19536759

The one I found has 16 gb ram for $699

I'm torn as well, do I do a build or buy an easy street no hassle box....

Another question is will usb2 work as well as FireWire? I won't be recording more than 4 tracks at a time.

[JGrabowMST]

If you get a PCIe X1 Firewire card, it will work just fine. I have one in my machine and I have no problems with it (well, one problem, but it doesn't affect my usage).

The thing with Dell or HP vs DIY is that Dell buys hardware in bulk quantities that causes a very big shift in pricing. What might cost your or I $100 could end up below $60 for Dell in the amount they're purchasing. Volume discounts at their best. It also shows with local PC shops, as the parts may run a total around $700 or so, but the built machine ready to go could be close to or over $1000 in some cases. Labor factors into it, so does the fact that local PC shops don't typically order in enough bulk to see a worthwhile discount. I work in a local PC shop myself, and I can tell you firsthand that the #1 reason I don't build more computers is because people don't want to pay for them.

Seeing as I build, fix and support systems, it doesn't affect my income as much, but I've seen a large decline in custom builds, even for speciality applications (engineering, AutoCAD or audio production) because people take their chances with an off the shelf machine, and then end up on forums where in many cases I end up providing them with a solution one way or another (I've had a couple local cases a few years back even).

As far as a DAW goes, there is no "easy street, no hassle box." You can build one that works great for you, but in my environment, it might have a ton of problems. You just have to research your components and anticipate problems.

As far as the name brand machines go however, you have far less flexibility for troubleshooting BIOS or EFI related latency issues. In some (most) cases, there isn't anything you can do if the machine ends up having high latency other than trying a BIOS update. If it doesn't get fixed with that, sad fact of the matter is that it wont be fixed for some time (if at all).

Most importantly however, ask yourself if you really trust a machine with a 1 year warranty. DIY cases you have individual component warranties from 1 year, 5 years, or even lifetime for certain components. Buy with AMEX in the US, and you might get 1 additional year warranty from a name brand, if AMEX approves the work and the damage is not considered your own fault.

My advice? Custom build. Build it right and it'll last a really long time, you control the parts, the warranty and most importantly, the quality. No bloatware, or anything you don't expressly want installed on the machine, and it's as fast or slow as you want it.

Whatever you do though, buy a backup hard drive, and set it up right away. Don't buy one in a few months, do it the day you open the box and set the thing up. I've seen an alarming number of hard drives fail in the past couple months. A $100 backup drive is absolute peanuts compared to the cost of data recovery (at my shop it starts at $199 and goes up from there depending on severity of the drive failure). I've seen clean room quotes well over $2000. Running a backup on a consistent basis removes the worry of data loss, and the burning sensation from the wallet. Preventative measures are the most important ones to take.

I'll just leave you with this little tidbit of info: The two brands that come in most often for failed components at my shop are Dell and HP. Power supplies and motherboards fail at a high rate in both their laptops and desktops. Seagate 2TB drives seem to have the highest failure rate of all the 1.5+TB sized drives that I've seen, most failing either before 1 year, or shortly after, OEM or purchased individually. The only time I see a custom build come in for work is when the owner broke something, most typically not knowing what they were doing.

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by JGrabowMST

The two brands that come in most often for failed components at my shop are Dell and HP. Power supplies and motherboards fail at a high rate in both their laptops and desktops.

That could also mean that they sell more units and have the same failure rate as anything else.

[JGrabowMST]

Both Dell and HP use Bestec brand power supplies. They're just known for being complete crap and failing early on. Part of the problem is that in the Dell Inspiron series, and the HP Pavilion series, they use power supplies that aren't outputting enough power for what people use them for. The Dell XPS series usually comes with a higher wattage unit, but not always, the same with the HP Elite line.

In the end, if I could have $5 for every Bestec unit I've replaced in the past 4 years, I'd probably look into property in Monaco.

[Jbyrd]

Thanks a ton for your detailed response JGrabowMST, you rock.

So I purchased the dell xps 8700 because it was such a good deal and I knew the deal would be gone the next day... ( through costco, so I can return it with ease) and I open the case and realize how cheap this dog is. I did see a review about how cheap the new dells are, and I didn't take heed. The case is riveted together and the extra slots are limiting, and I read a few horror stories about power supplies crapping out in a few months. That's NOT easy street in my book. So, its going back today. I read Dell "locks down the bios" as well. I dont need to find this headache in a few months... So, it back to the custom build, and it will be a technical tank!

I have done one successful build for a digi001 box back in 2003, it turned out great, but its old now, and your totally right, there is so much more control with components. So, what your thoughts on this configuration?

CPU - Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core
CPU Cooler - Noctua NH-U9B SE2 37.9 CFM
Motherboard - Asus Z87-A ATX LGA1150 - OR - ASRock Z77 Extreme4 LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel
Memory - G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1866
Storage - 2- Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM HDs
Video Card - Asus Radeon HD 6450 2GB
Case - Antec Three Hundred Two ATX Mid Tower
Power Supply - OCZ 550W ATX12V
Optical Drive - Asus DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS DVD/CD Writer

Cost $850

OS - Win 7

I've read I'm better off going with Xeon for multi core processing and longevity. I may use this box for some light gaming, nothing major, but it will mostly be a dedicated DAW. And thanks in advance for your response.

NOTE: I also need a board with a PCI slot so I can reuse the digi 001 as input.
NOTE 2: should I go for a dual cpu MB for future expansion or is this overkill?
NOTE 3: the MOBO is probably the biggest question.

[JGrabowMST]

CPU - Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core
CPU Cooler - Noctua NH-U9B SE2 37.9 CFM
Motherboard - Asus Z87-A ATX LGA1150 - OR - ASRock Z77 Extreme4 LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel
Memory - G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1866
Storage - 2- Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM HDs
Video Card - Asus Radeon HD 6450 2GB
Case - Antec Three Hundred Two ATX Mid Tower
Power Supply - OCZ 550W ATX12V
Optical Drive - Asus DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS DVD/CD Writer

Let's break this down by the important components, because there are things that aren't exactly important (DVD burner and case primarily).

The CPU is one that I could not recommend enough. Before I built my current desktop, I was very close to ordering the earlier model (would have been the original E3-1230). I have no problems with this whatsoever. It's a great CPU, and Xeons are great workhorses. If you need something that never fails to impress, it's Xeon or bust really. AMD doesn't make anything that I consider comparable for a professional machine that will be used as a work computer. I've certainly had and used AMD machines in the past, but the Xeon CPUs really are something else.

The Noctua cooler isn't bad (Noctua is an incredibly good company), but I don't see why you would choose a 92mm cooler over something a little more robust. Will it be enough? Certainly, but in terms of CPU cooling, the cooler the better. Larger coolers allow you to run the fans slower. Running the fans slower means less noise. Less noise is always better. Always. I would say the NH-U12P would be a better pick for the cooling. It will certainly fit inside the Antec 300 with no trouble at all. I will say though, use only one fan with it, on the front side of the case blowing through the heatsink towards the back. You aren't going to need the second fan, but you could certainly use it to replace the rear exhaust fan on the case. Antec fans are okay, but the bearings are a little on the cheap side, and the fans will start to rattle over time.

The motherboard is fine. I don't really see any reason to say no to it, you just need to make sure that the BIOS version that comes shipped is version 1405, which includes support for the E3-1230v3. It has a lot of expansion slots on it, which some people like, but most people never use. It'll fit just fine in the Antec 300 case as well. The Antec 300 supports up to a 10x12 inch eATX motherboard, I know from experience. It's a very simple case as well, and has rolled edges, so you aren't going to get cuts all over your hands from putting it together, something I've always liked about Antec. We'll come back to this later for the Digi 001 though.

G-Skill RAM is something I always liked. In all of my previous custom builds for myself, I've used G-Skill with no problems. I've never had any trouble with their RAM in several years. More recently I've been using Kingston a lot, mainly because of the need for ECC or Registered (or Registered ECC) RAM, and I trust them a lot for mission critical applications. That's not to say I wouldn't use G-Skill, but last I checked, G-Skill just didn't offer what I need for that end. For your desktop, this should work totally fine.

Much like G-Skill, I've exclusively used Western Digital hard drives for a significant amount of time. Fun fact: Western Digital bought out Hitachi, so now drives sold under HGST are under the same QC as Western Digital. I would suggest looking at the WD Black series for the desktop drives, as they will operate a little faster than the Blue series. Otherwise, even just using the Blue drives will be fine. It's not something that will cause any sort of significant detriment to your workflow. Something important that I always tell everyone (including my clients) about storage is to always have a backup. If you don't have a dedicated backup system, you are throwing caution into the wind. In complete seriousness, drive failure happens, and it's no fun for anyone. The cost of a couple external drives that you can copy projects or sample libraries onto as a backup is so much cheaper than sending a drive out for recovery that you may as well add them to your list now. There is no better time to set a backup than right now. Most importantly, just because the data is on a secondary drive doesn't mean it's safe. Drive failure can occur to anything, and even more importantly, there are some extremely malicious viruses that exist today that can cause complete data loss across every single drive connected to a computer at any given point in time. You never want to leave your backup drives connected 24/7, but you want to stick to a backup schedule. The headache of drive failure or data loss is the worst kind, so start off prepared. As the saying goes, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

The video card you linked is a bit dated. Not that it wont do the job, but it is dated. I would look at maybe either a 7000 series AMD graphics card. Something a little more modern is what I would look for simply out of longevity, mainly because of driver support in the future. That's all. More of a personal preference than a necessity, because using the 6450 will more than do the job for what you want.

The case is the case, that's what you want. Personally, I use the NZXT Source 210 Elite. Cost about as much as the Antec 300, just something I liked more. Just a good example of how it's all personal preference.

For the power supply, I personally wouldn't use OC-Z. OC-Z is not a bad brand, but I would not personally trust it in my own computer. I would look at Be Quiet, Antec or Enermax as top choices. All of those are extremely high quality units. You'll need something in the ballpark of 380-450W. You can certainly get something more like a 500W, but you'll never use it unless you go to put in a high powered graphics card (I'd be willing to bet that you wont be doing that).

Windows 7 will be totally fine, you should have all the drivers you need for the motherboard and other hardware straight off the website. I would download all the latest drivers online first and then install them, and you can basically toss the disc that comes with the motherboard. Don't even put it in, because it's a combination of likely older drivers and bloatware, none of which you want on your machine.

So getting to the Digi 001, this is a bit of a big deal. I used to do tech support for Avid, and with the experience I had doing support primarily from the Delta series, you need to be extremely wary of the fact that your interface could experience problems. You will not really be able to tell until you get everything together and you try it. If you had say a Digi 003, it's just a firewire unit, and you could get an upgraded PCI-e FW card, and be on your way with using it. Keep it in mind though. It's the crux of the build, and my testing and support ended when I stopped doing work with Avid, so that was about 2012. Motherboards have changed a lot since then, and I wouldn't be able to tell you about most new hardware.

Going for a dual socket motherboard is certainly a possibility, but I would base it on what kind of power you need out of the computer, in comparison to how long your previous machine lasted. I run a dual CPU machine (two E5-2620 CPUs) and it's power that I need, because I do primarily video editing on my machine. I need massive power available very quickly for rendering. Something to keep in mind is that if the computer is going to last you probably 3-5 years as is, building a new computer in 3-5 years is going to result in more power. If you felt that you would need a substantial amount of power increase in less than two years, it could work out to get a dual socket machine, but not all Xeons are scalable to multiple CPUs, and the ones that are scalable typically cost a lot, and don't drop in price over time as quickly. Unless you're really itching for serious processing power (which Reaper wont necessarily need with most users), you'll be fine with just a single CPU.

So, in all, the motherboard really comes down to how badly you want to keep the Digi 001. I would say that given it's age, you may be better off upgrading to something newer like the Digi 003 or just a new USB or firewire recording interface now, along with the rest of the computer so that you aren't being trapped or held down by hardware that is significantly older than your machine. I used to run 2x Delta 1010 and 1x Delta 66 with the Omni IO box. I basically had to abandon all of that hardware, and I replaced it with a ProFire 2626. Cost a big chunk of change to do it, but I'm glad I did. My current machine has no PCI slot, only PCI-e. That's at least my two cents about it. I currently work at a repair shop, so I have conversations like this on a regular basis with clients.

[Jbyrd]

Awesome response JGrabowMST.

I have to give a shout out to pcpartpicker.com. What a great site to create a build.
That being said I published my DAW build with updates \ suggestions from the man... JGrabowMST, and anyone else that would like to give input please do.


Heres the pcpartpickerlink --> http://pcpartpicker.com/user/jbyrd01/saved/mGrwrH
With the current build Im looking at about 250w, but want room for growth for cards and more drives.

I went with the NZXT Source 210 Elite case, looks nice.
I also went with the NH-U12P.
I also went with the Antec 550W ATX12V

ALL good sugestions. Thank You.

Video card: I need the Video card to have a VGA , DVI, and HDMI ports. If you have better suggestions here please chime in, There are an ocean of video cards out there and I dont know squat about them all. also, should I get one with a fan? Most of my work is midi with some live direct overdubing and "some" mike recording. Is a card with a fan going to make THAT much noise? Maybe I need to look at a list of many with db level indicators.


Backup: I alreay have a seagate FreeAgent 9nn2a3-500 GB external drive for backup and though I'd use the DVD burner for hard copy long term individual song backups. Have any betters ideas for the long term backups that are cost efficient?


The MOBO does have mucho expansion slots, which your right, I will probably never use, but it does have the PCI, and PCIe(s), Im still on the fence with the MOBO, I want the most stable unbreakable bad boy I can find ( within reason) which bring us here...

The Digi001 interface. Well this is a big question. My thoughts were "Hey if I could reuse a quality unit, do it." it has all the inputs I will ever need and if it didnt work I can then say "at least I tried". OR should I shy away from this entire approach because it could be the weakest link? I need at least 4 to 6 simultaneous inputs for jam \ live recording. Maybe just go for the Behringer FCA610 for $200 and be done with it? This way I could go USB or firewire with possible input expansion if needed. http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FCA610.aspx.

The digi001 AD-DA converters are pretty good, and it looks like the FCA610 's are just as good, maybe better. Maybe Im just being dumbbb? ( get the new stuff jbyrd.. it works..) lol.

I dont want to create to much thread drift with this but it is an important decision to make before doing a new build. I've never used USB as an interface, is it as fast or better as the digi 001 was? I dont want to be dealing with latency issues. On another note I'm a keyboard player of 35 years and have ton of old vintage gear that Im starting to part with that will generate cash for new goodies. Thats one of the main reasons for this new build, besides reaper Im going to fill this tank with Omisphere and well as a slew of other softsynths, plugins, and any other goodies I can find.... yum.

thoughts?

[huberkinky]

I would add some few cents of my experiences as a computer tech. Not any more but still have some basic knowledge.

For something so sensitive as compatibilities of many plugins I would never buy a Dell o any branded PC for music.

Two reasons.

Most those guys are using THEIR custom version of Windows with THEIR extras. These can and often will cause crashes of plugins or DAW, because DAW's are not tested on such modified OS because these modifications are constant. Also their extras like better graphics card and their motherboards designed to do the basic stuff, mainly Windows, Internet and Office.

And most of branded machines are running perfect... Windows and Office and big companies love it! Less maintenance, good price, which is squashed form sub contractors.

So it's possible to get some nasty crashes on full rig, because graphic card made by sub contractors was made without all normal features for crazy gamers.

They video card made for the mas market will be much better for games and have to be competitive and of course stable.

Otherwise... no sales.

The same idea applies to all component of branded PC.

I would recommend only one computer branded for music. MAC! If you can afford it!

Still using one since 1998 with early version of ProTools. Still rock stable

With laptops regards of OS is the same and... worse.

CPU is not the same as CPU desktops. Simple proof. How hot is CPU in notebook and what kind of cooling needs to be on desktop PC?

It's not the same CPU, uses much less power and there is a reason. It's not the same performance. Mostly in Windows appears to be the same but in DAW you will fins quickly where limits are.

Ad one more thing. Motherboards - ASUS or MSI. Personally I do prefer MSI.

Never buy the latest! Buy one year old, well updated in BIOS, version 1.24 or something like that, where bugs are fixed.

The same idea applying to any equipment, software, plugins, OS, DAW.

I was assembling a lot of machines and since I started using MSI motherboards 1 year old, older stocks, I was selling very stable machines and business was going very well.

That's my rant anyway.

[JGrabowMST]

Originally Posted by Jbyrd

Awesome response JGrabowMST.

http://pcpartpicker.com/user/jbyrd01/saved/mGrwrH
With the current build Im looking at about 250w, but want room for growth for cards and more drives.

Video card: I need the Video card to have a VGA , DVI, and HDMI ports. If you have better suggestions here please chime in, There are an ocean of video cards out there and I dont know squat about them all. also, should I get one with a fan? Most of my work is midi with some live direct overdubing and "some" mike recording. Is a card with a fan going to make THAT much noise? Maybe I need to look at a list of many with db level indicators.

Have any betters ideas for the long term backups that are cost efficient?

I want the most stable unbreakable bad boy I can find (within reason) which bring us here...

I need at least 4 to 6 simultaneous inputs for jam \ live recording. Maybe just go for the Behringer FCA610 for $200 and be done with it? This way I could go USB or firewire with possible input expansion if needed. http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FCA610.aspx.

thoughts?

I trimmed some of the non-essential things I'll cover, but kept the main points I'll touch on.

Firstly, thread drift is important. Building a computer isn't just putting parts in a box and hitting the power button. It's completely worthless if you finish it and you can no longer use what you want to use with it. Just a bunch of expensive parts that require even more money. As with any system I design or implement, it's as strong as the weakest link.

PC Parts Picker is okay, but it's not something I've used on any of my personal builds. I push the limit of what's physically possible with building a computer. I've built computers that shouldn't physically fit together, and yet they do, and they look and work great. PC Parts Picker is good for basic things, but it doesn't tell you if parts will fit, that's the very tricky end of building a really custom machine. The only thing I see on your list to get rid of is the Arctic Silver. Look up something called Innovation Cooling Diamond 7. Get that instead. Costs more, but I have yet to find something better, and working in a computer shop, I get to try out a lot of different stuff on a weekly basis.

That said, 550W is more than you'll ever need, and that's fine. With parts going down in power usage every year, you'll be just fine for several years to come. Treat the computer well and keep it clean and it should last just as long as your last machine, if not longer. For the graphics card, needing a lot of different outputs is fine, and a little bit of a moot point today, because you can get adapter cables from nearly anything to nearly anything else. Don't shy away from adapters, with most video outputs being digital, there isn't any significant quality loss that you'll experience, much less even notice. A good display and a good cable are all that matter. DVI to HDMI, DVI to VGA, HDMI to DisplayPort, it's all available, and works great. Any modern graphics card will do what you need it to do, that's the answer in the end. The 6450 will be just as good as anything else for DAW work and very light gaming. Being fanless is nice, keeps the noise down.

Burned discs are effective, but nothing I would consider a long-term storage solution. I have plenty of burned media that's nearly 15 years old now. Trying to get all the data off of those discs today is proving to be a pretty big challenge. Sometimes I have to try 3-4 different computers before being able to get a file off. Short term, or providing a client with a backup, fine, discs are acceptable. For the long haul, it's a very bad strategy. If they get stored incorrectly (too humid or get wet for long periods of time) they can turn into a coaster very quickly. The cost of a hard drive to store data is pretty cheap. Are the immune to problems? No, drives fail, and can do so with literally no warning. Data recovery off a spinning hard disk is generally more easily done than any other media. Solid State Drives also can fail, and when they do, you just have to really hope the only failure point is the controller, otherwise you're in for a new world of pain for data recovery. Keep in mind many data recovery labs have final costs between $500 to $3000, and the costs can go up from there. I've had $1800 unsuccessful attempts for clients, and I've had $480 complete success stories. It's impossible to say what will work, but a damaged CD, DVD or BluRay? Consider it a write-off.

The motherboard decision comes down to the interface you use. If you're dead set on trying the Digi001, then you can keep a PCI slot and stick with the same motherboard. Personally, I would not build a brand new computer riding on the gamble of whether a pretty old recording unit will function correctly. Having done tech support for the M-Audio Delta series, I saw firsthand how the PCI bus got messed up and effectively made useless on a very large number of motherboards people were trying to use. There were even users who were still buying brand new Delta series cards hoping to use them. There were plenty of cases when a solution could be reached, but I wouldn't promise it for anyone. In your case? USB interfaces work just fine. I have an M-Audio C400, and I've never had a single problem with it. I also have the M-Audio ProFire 2626, and Firewire Solo. I most definitely prefer Firewire over USB, but for the input count you need (4-6 inputs), it isn't going to make the slightest difference. If you end up going to a different interface, you could change the motherboard or keep it. It wont make a difference if you never use the PCI slot, but unless I were to get that motherboard and set up a test bench, I'd never be able to tell you if the Digi001 will function the way it's supposed to.

I would strongly advise looking at MoTU, Presonus, Avid or Sound Devices. I would avoid Behringer and M-Audio right now. Why? You're looking to produce music, you want it to sound good. Not just good, but the best you can do. Did I list "budget" interfaces? No, but each of those companies offer something in the range you're looking for as far as inputs are concerned. Think of it this way, when you build a computer you want the best quality components you can get. Most importantly is the power supply. It keeps the computer running, and has to do so through power fluctuations and needs to withstand a surge if it happens. You simply don't want to hope that a cheap, low quality unit will be passable in the end, because your ability to work relies on that single unit. Music production is no different. Software only handles the data that it is given. A poor quality recording unit is going to sound just like that. They cost so little for a reason. Poor power control boards, cheap preamps, low quality AD-DA converters that only end up sounding "okay." The recording interface is your biggest investment, because it's what translates the sound you want into the software. The computer could really be anything you want, but it's like listening to music on cheap speakers. They simply don't translate what you're playing to what you're hearing.

You have more playing experience than I have years on the ground. I wont say by how much, but I have quite a few "vintage" goodies myself, and they all have a unique sound. The most important thing is knowing that the sound you want to have gets into the computer. My "studio" has quite a few very strange "instruments" sitting around that would make most people scratch their heads, or wonder what they're doing in a studio, but that's what makes my space unique (imagine a Nintendo DS sitting on a Roland Juno 60, and you'll have have the same reaction as most other people when they see it).

In the end however, like you said, when it's possible to reuse a good unit, often times it's best to. With this case however, my advice would be to look at something new, but along the same level of quality. Behringer or M-Audio will certainly take you a step down from where you want to be, and while you may not notice right away the difference in quality, someone with a trained ear, or someone just listening for the little details will be able to tell instantly. I have custom gear that people can't tell apart for gear that's well out of my price range, but modding certainly isn't for everyone, just like keeping up with the technology. I may be young enough to keep up with the technology, but it certainly takes a lot of time away from doing other things, like just using some of the tech that I already have.

The only major disagreement I have with huberkinky is the Mac comment. Sure, I'm sitting in front of a 2011 MacBook Pro with the 2.2GHz i7, 16gb of RAM and a 750gb HDD, but it doesn't do anything better than my Toshiba Tecra M11. Yes, I love the hi-res screen, I love the feel of the keyboard, but was it really worth the obscene amount of money I shelled out for it? No. I bought it because I actually needed to have a Mac around for troubleshooting cross platform software. As I tell many of my clients, if it died tomorrow, I wouldn't replace it with another Apple. I never owned an iPod, and while this is my 3rd Apple laptop, it's a gimmick. They only thing they do better than any other brand laptop is clear your wallet out. They cost more to buy, the replacement parts cost more, they typically require more labor to replace some parts. Simply not worth it, even as a long-term purchase meant to last several years. Otherwise, I very much do prefer MSI and Asus, and have moved to Asus on my most recent personal machine because MSI didn't make anything comparable. Gigabyte and Asrock are also very good brands I'll use regularly. The only brand name of components that I stay very far away from is ECS. I've only had one product from them work as it was supposed to. Otherwise everything else has been complete junk.

[Jbyrd]

Happy Holidays All!
OK, I refined a few things, Mobo, GPU, and power supply


CPU - Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core
CPU Cooler - Noctua NH-U12P SE2 54.4 CFM
Motherboard - Asus Z97-A ATX LGA1150
Memory - G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1866
Storage 1 - Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM
Storage 2 - Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM
Case - NZXT Source 210 Elite (Black) ATX Mid Tower
Power Supply - Antec 450W ATX12V
Optical Drive - Asus DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS DVD/CD Writer
video card - Zotac Video Graphic Card ZT-71108-10L - 4GB DDR3

Zotac - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00M4K6IYG/...I24HNTE4MG3RAO

1. I think the video card should be compatible with the Mobo
2. dropped the power to 450W, that's plenty, your right, current rig pulls around 240W

I'm ready to make a purchase but wanted the final approval from the pros on the config and the video card. I wanted the most ram I can get and be quiet at the same time. The Zotac has 4GB, but I know nothing of this brand. Its pretty hard to find anything above 2 GB with no fan and the newegg reviews for zotec cards look pretty good.

Also found this:
Palit Geforce GTX 750 Ti Kalmx Silent 2GB
http://www.quietpc.com/pal-ne5x75t00941-1073h

and this:
ASUS GeForce STRIX GTX 750 Ti OC 2GB DDR5
http://www.quietpc.com/asus-strix-gtx750ti-oc-2gd5

Thoughts?

[JGrabowMST]

I would say that Zotac is a perfectly fine brand. I don't usually see any problems with the parts (one failed motherboard in 4 years is pretty good as far as I'm concerned).

As far as the graphics card goes, 4gb? It's completely pointless on a non-GTX card. The GT730 will be just as good with 1 or 2gb of RAM, that extra 2 is just a gimmick and you'll never really make use of it. If there's a 2gb model for cheaper that's also fanless, go for that instead.

Palit also makes pretty good cards, but as I said, if you can find a lower RAM version of the GT730, it'll do more than what you need it to do. It'll handle dual displays, it'll play HD videos no problem, and it'll just work without complaints or noise. It's all you could ask for. If you need to play video games, a 750 would be preferable, even a 760, but if it's really basic/minimal intensity games, the 730 will be just as good.

You have two WD Storage drives, what is the OS being installed to? Something you already have?

If the video card can plug into the motherboard it will do just fine. Anything modern is good enough to be honest.

Other than that, looking good. Just clear up what your OS drive is, and you'll be all set!

[Jbyrd]

All GREAT info here.... thank you very much! I just looked up the difference between GT and GTX. This ol boy went to school thanks to you but Im still killing myself trying to make a decision on the MOBO. Im NOT going to overclock, and I want it to be rock solid. Im reading all the "bad egg" reviews on asus boards and seeing a LOT of DOAs and died in 4 months posts.... as well as other makes... Makes me worried.
Do I go Z87, Z97 , H97?
ASUS or ASRock or MSI or Gigabite? Yikes! -- lol)

PS Im making this purchase either today or tomorrow to get the sale into this years taxes. If you could respond soon that would be awesome.

This has NO bad eggs --> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157512
This has all the stuff I want --> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813132121

ALSO:

Originally Posted by JGrabowMST

You have two WD Storage drives, what is the OS being installed to? Something you already have?

I was going to use one of the WD drives for the OS, should I have a separate drive besides the 2 WD drives?

[JGrabowMST]

I strongly recommend you use a separate drive for the operating system, so that you aren't storing projects or important data on it for any length of time (it's one thing to download a file, another to run the project from start to finish). Reason being, if something happens to the OS or you need to reinstall, you can rest assured knowing that your data is not going to be affected if you reformat the OS drive. I suggest using a smaller drive for this purpose as well. My OS drives are typically in the range of 240-250gb (SSD capacities are sometimes listed as slightly smaller). It makes it easy to identify at a glance as well, and forces you to store larger files elsewhere. It's a good habit to get into, because it's to your own benefit.

I personally have a Gigabyte Z97 motherboard that I use as my "experimental" machine, and have never had a problem with it. I've used Z87 and Z97 many times, and have not see one fail that I have installed yet. The biggest thing to keep in mind is that the motherboards are mass produced. Due to the manufacturing process, there will be bad units, it's a part of life. They come with a warranty for a reason. Make a good backup of your software, and you should have nothing to worry about in the event of a setback like motherboard failure. I prefer Gigabyte and MSI. My latest personal machine uses an Asus board. I'm not a fan of Asrock, but I rarely see problems with them. This is all subject to my experience, so it is what it is, but I've been repairing computers for a long time, and know my way around them well.

I'd say your biggest decision regarding the motherboard is if you're gambling to try out the Digi001 or you want to upgrade to a new interface. Otherwise, you shouldn't have a problem regardless of what you go with. It's totally possible you could get a bad board, but RMAs and warranties help with that. Is it ideal? No, but it can be remedied no matter what the problem is. I would also note that in plenty of cases, the poor reviews come from people who don't know what they're doing, or haven't completed the software installation. All the drivers need to be installed, not just a few. I don't install the software that many motherboards ship with, but the drivers are critical for proper operation of the motherboard.

[Jbyrd]

DONE! I got the order in today!!

CPU - Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core
CPU Cooler - Noctua NH-U12P SE2 54.4 CFM
Thermal Compound - Innovation Cooling Diamond "7 Carat" Thermal Compound - 1.5 Grams
Motherboard - Asus Z97-A ATX LGA1150
Memory - G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-2133
Storage - Sandisk Ultra Plus 128GB 2.5" SSD - OS Drive
- Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM
- Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM
Case - NZXT Source 210 Elite (Black) ATX Mid Tower
Power Supply - Antec 550W ATX12V
Optical Drive - Asus DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS DVD/CD Writer
Video Card - Zotac GeForce GTX 750 1GB ZONE
OS - Windows 7 64 Bit

- Current Rig is 274 W - the 550 Power supply was on sale FOR $55, its modular, and the rig has much room to grow
- Mobo is Thunderbolt ready, that may happen down the road, I love this option...
- Mobo also has tons of Fan controls, love that. I did a full comparison of all mobos with PCI slots, hands down the Z97-A has the best options. I love the compare 5 function on newegg, which allowed me to whittled it down from 50+ mobos to one of my original choices, love when that happens...
- The 128 GB SSD was a steal @ $55 plenty big for the OS, My current work laptop windows folder with all the updates is 39 GB.
- Eons of other expandable options, bells, whistles, stuff.
- Some of the prices dropped since its the end of the year. ( that's nice...)

Great thinking there JGrabowMST, if the OS goes bad, wipe it and reinstall. done. No data on the OS drive. Now THATS easy street! And on that note I like to thank you again for all the information you shared. You have helped me tremendously. So has huberkinky, thank you.

The final mongo woohoo is this, I would have spent $750 on a Dell that was made like crap, OR build my own DAW Reaper love'in monster for $925 with mucho expandability.( Not including OS) I choose to spend an extra $175 for my new long life DAW monster, and I cant wait to start building her teeth. Yum.

As far as input\output, I may do both. I have a ton of work I've done on the digi001, and I want to install Protools 5.3.1. If it plays nice with Win 7 thats great, if it doesnt I may setup a VM running windows XP if needed. I have some unfinished work that needs a polish. For the New I\O I'll probably go with presonus or one of the other quality items, there are many, and I dont want to start thread drift. I'll be reading \ posting on those threads soon enough.

Super phyched to do this build, this will be my 2nd full build, and I've fixed my share of existing boxes within my days and I have a ton of old spare parts about, but wanted to go all new for this one.
Its time to rock and roll.

Yar.
JByrd

[JGrabowMST]

I don't think a virtual machine will help you with running an older version of Pro Tools. I would expect PT5 to install under maybe a compatibility mode, but if you installed it in a virtual machine you aren't going to be able to map the PCI audio interface to the virtual machine. Pro Tools will just open and give you a missing interface error. Virtual Machines limit your ability for connecting physical hardware to USB devices, hard drives and optical drives. You aren't going to be able to map the Digi001 to the VM and have it be fully functional for Pro Tools, that simply doesn't work like that.

If you have a newer version of pro tools, you could make a copy of the session and see if you can open it in the new one, and see what plugins are missing and how the session will work. If you only have V5, then see if it will install and run, otherwise, you'll just need to keep the old machine as a reference. I'm only familiar with Pro Tools starting from 7.04 and newer. Not only that, but older versions of Pro Tools have to use Avid compatible interfaces. It wasn't until Version 9 that third party interfaces became compatible (first being the Mackie Onyx firewire mixer).

If you're thinking about getting a new interface, I would say it's time to do that with the new machine. If you're going to be running Reaper alone, the sky is the limit as far as interfaces go, but you'll be in good hands if you're looking at a Presonus unit. It'll also work just fine with Pro Tools 10 or 11 without problems, as they have good ASIO drivers. Newer versions of Pro Tools can open older sessions but be sure to have a backup copy of the session in case anything goes wrong, or changes don't work correctly.

Beyond that, the new machine should do well for you. Has plenty of go power inside to last you a long time.