Old 02-18-2012, 10:10 AM   #241
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[edit] please ignore this post and the previous one, I was using some wrong method[/edit]

Last edited by miche; 02-18-2012 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:50 AM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinx View Post
Here's what I've found by testing with different softwares:
The so called "pregap"= the first 2seconds of the CD, always 2 seconds of silence (created automatically with DDP export, using the project's first two secs ).Writing it index0 seems not completely correct, because:
it belongs to Track1 indexO but you can have a second tack1 index0 beginning after the pregap, wich can contain audio (pre-hidden track) as long as you want
Then there is track1 index1 wich sets the begining for "normal" playing with a cdplayer
Hmm, how did you come to that conclusion? It would be in sync with the experiences posted here from DDP Creator and ImgBurn. I just somehow thought having two track 1 index 0 marks would be impossible on a CD, maybe I'm wrong.

Quote:
I have successfully burned a Cd including a prehidden track with Imgburn and rip it with EAC, and could match the cuesheets
How did the cue sheet look like? Did you maybe also export a DDP from the same REAPER project, and how did that look like?

Quote:
@Anrug
I've tested your DDP to Cue converter:
It works with reaper's DDP only when track1 index1 is set @ 2"00
otherwise, in every different scenario, I get this error:
Error: number of sectors included in data file (150) does not match PQ data <0>.
Hmm, may or may not be a bug. Can you send me or post the DDP files (not the big data file, but everything else), so I can see what's going on in detail? I think I've not seen a DDP without the first track at 2 sec., so that case is certainly not properly tested.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:07 AM   #243
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[edit]
Ok, I am on an editing spree. I managed to understand my problem, it took me some time to absorb vinx's reply. Thanks to you! Can you just confirm I am doing it right?

If DDP Player tells me my track is 00:38:40 and reaper says it's 00:38:533, what I have to do is to take the DDP milliseconds (40) and multiply it by 1/75 to get the reaper value (533).


[/edit]




Now my last question remains: is it normal that 1 second of silence is added to the DDP render at the end of the last track?

Last edited by miche; 02-19-2012 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 02-20-2012, 03:59 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by anrug View Post
Hmm, how did you come to that conclusion? It would be in sync with the experiences posted here from DDP Creator and ImgBurn. I just somehow thought having two track 1 index 0 marks would be impossible on a CD, maybe I'm wrong.
finally some exported cue from sonoris showed me that probably:
the pregap is part of a cd = no cd without 2"00 pregap. It's there "by default"
pregap not necessary written in the cuesheet, but it shows in some app editor (imgburn/sonoris)
ex: sonoris editor = pregap(@index0)+index0 but sonoris exported cuesheet= just index0

here's the file with a ddp from reaper+cues from EAC and Sonoris for a project with prehidden track (audio in index 0 after the pregap). Hope this helps
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:24 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinx View Post
finally some exported cue from sonoris showed me that probably:
the pregap is part of a cd = no cd without 2"00 pregap. It's there "by default"
pregap not necessary written in the cuesheet, but it shows in some app editor (imgburn/sonoris)
ex: sonoris editor = pregap(@index0)+index0 but sonoris exported cuesheet= just index0
What Sonoris is showing in that case might not be intentional, maybe ask Pieter about it.

My understanding (which may not be correct!) is that the range from track 1 index 0 (which is the beginning of a CD's program area) and track 1 index 1 is called first pregap and has to be at least two seconds long. If we want a hidden track in there, we simply have index 1 coming much later than usually.

Quote:
here's the file with a ddp from reaper+cues from EAC and Sonoris for a project with prehidden track (audio in index 0 after the pregap). Hope this helps
Thanks for the examples! I don't quite understand how you created those files. The DDP was done from Reaper, right? And then, how exactly did you create the cue sheets from that?

DDP2Cue's error message signals that the internal structure of the DDP does not make fully sense to me, I don't know how I could reliably derive a cue sheet from that DDP. BTW, is Sergej around?

The cue sheets look like I'd expect them, but the DDP has two seconds of silence prior to the already specified pregap. Are the cue sheets really derived from that DDP, and if so, how?

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Old 02-21-2012, 11:11 AM   #246
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Anrug
The DDP has been created with reaper.
I've set it like that: there is two seconds without any sounds and no marker=this is the pregap
then there is @2"00 an indexO marker, and 4 seconds later index1.
there is audio inbetween there (the prehidden track).

I've imported the ddp in sonoris, checked it and then exported in cue/wav. I've burned a cd from this cue with imgburn, then rip it with EAC to get the second cuesheet.

I 've just tried to export the same project without any track1 indexO marker in reaper: this gives the same result= same cuesheet.
And I get the same error message with this DDP in your converter (in fact the message appears as soon as index1 is not at 2"00)

I think that Sonoris export cuesheets in the "type 1", but the editor shows "type3" (the pregap appears). The exported sonoris cuesheet write track1 index0 only for the duration above the 2" pregap
If index1 is at 2"00 there is no index0 nor pregap mention in the resulting cuesheet

Maybe your converter should do also that way: insert an indexO for the duration between pregap's end and index1, as soon as this one is set after 2"00 ?
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:16 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinx View Post
Anrug
The DDP has been created with reaper.
I've set it like that: there is two seconds without any sounds and no marker=this is the pregap
then there is @2"00 an indexO marker, and 4 seconds later index1.
there is audio inbetween there (the prehidden track).
Are you sure, such a layout makes any sense? On a CD we can't have anything before track 1 index 0 and we can't have a second track 1 index 0, as far as I know (let me know if I'm wrong). What's the reason, you're not putting the track 1 index 0 right at the start 0:00?

Quote:
I've imported the ddp in sonoris, checked it and then exported in cue/wav. I've burned a cd from this cue with imgburn, then rip it with EAC to get the second cuesheet.
Which shows, that apparently on the CD there is only one pregap from 00:00:00 to 00:06:00.

Quote:
I 've just tried to export the same project without any track1 indexO marker in reaper: this gives the same result= same cuesheet.
That makes sense to me. I would probably also remove the two seconds of silence from the beginning, but I've never had to do a hidden track, so I might just be wrong. Why do you think, you need the additional two seconds?

Quote:
And I get the same error message with this DDP in your converter (in fact the message appears as soon as index1 is not at 2"00)
Yes, that's because there is one field inside the DDP which specifies the pregap length to 2 seconds, while the PQ data in the same DDP say something different. I simply don't know how to handle such a situation properly. If you say that Sonoris, imports such a DDP, then maybe it ignores one of the fields. Would maybe have to check how other programs handle this special case.

Quote:
Maybe your converter should do also that way: insert an indexO for the duration between pregap's end and index1, as soon as this one is set after 2"00 ?
I believe there is no "duration" between the pregap's end and index 1, because the pregap per definition ends with index 1. Also the PQ data inside the DDP is perfectly fine (index 0 at 00:00:00 and index 1 at 00:06:00), there's no need to modify anything. I'm just aborting with an error, because I'm not sure whether the DDP is broken or not. If it's important for you, I can make a version which emits only a warning and spits out a cue sheet including index 0 (which would look like the one you've got from EAC).

EDIT: BTW I just checked the MMC specification (which has quite some details on the structure of CDs) again and it says, that on an audio CD the pregaps are called "pause", but I'm too lazy to correct all my posts, sorry.

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Old 02-21-2012, 03:19 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by anrug View Post
Are you sure, such a layout makes any sense? On a CD we can't have anything before track 1 index 0 and we can't have a second track 1 index 0, as far as I know (let me know if I'm wrong).
But there can be audio before track 1, index 01. That's how hidden tracks are done (HTOA), if the burner will allow that.

According to CUE sheet standard, index 01 defines the start of each given track. Index 00 marks the the start of pre-gap for a given track. In other words and like you said above, there is no need for a separate mark for the end of pre-gap, index 01 is that.
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Old 02-21-2012, 03:42 PM   #249
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But there can be audio before track 1, index 01. That's how hidden tracks are done (HTOA), if the burner will allow that.

According to CUE sheet standard, index 01 defines the start of each given track. Index 00 marks the the start of pre-gap for a given track. In other words and like you said above, there is no need for a separate mark for the end of pre-gap, index 01 is that.
I completely agree with all you write. Did I write anything else?

What surprised me was simply, that vinx seems to have been trying to have some date (silence only though) before track 1 index 0, and I doubt that can be put on a Red Book CD.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:03 PM   #250
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Oh, you wrote other correct things too. What I intended as a confirmation of what you said while also wondering what vinx was trying to do with hidden tracks was maybe a bit one-sided in presentation, sorry.

I think what JHughes said earlier about CD standard is right. Not only it's not rigid enough, or maybe also because of that, device manufacturers can't seem to get their recording/playback gear to work the same way either. Exploiting the looser limits of standard will cause funny issues, but not with all the gear or all the time.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:17 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by xpander View Post
I think what JHughes said earlier about CD standard is right. Not only it's not rigid enough, or maybe also because of that, device manufacturers can't seem to get their recording/playback gear to work the same way either. Exploiting the looser limits of standard will cause funny issues, but not with all the gear or all the time.
You are unfortunately right, I think. The trouble with standards or file format specs also is, that I gain roughly one third of the knowledge from reading it and the other two thirds by reading (if source code is available) or reverse engineering existing implementations (i.e. software). Even for something as simple as the DDP format you can't simply read the spec and do it right, you have to find out how others do it and what the plant will accept. Speaking as a developer that is, as an audio engineer I should hope, that other people are taking care of the irritating details and hide them from me.

Vinx,
I've modified DDP2Cue to include the first pregap/pause if it's longer than two seconds, so it should now accept DDPs with a hidden pregap. The resulting cue will be the same, that you showed me from EAC, if you place your track 1 index 0 marker at 00:00:00. Feel free to test.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:06 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by anrug View Post
I completely agree with all you write. Did I write anything else?

What surprised me was simply, that vinx seems to have been trying to have some date (silence only though) before track 1 index 0, and I doubt that can be put on a Red Book CD.
hmmm .... Not exactly that . I was trying to explain that the 2"00 of "necessary" pregap belongs to index0, but it's not written in the cuesheets from eac or sonoris.
The track1 index0 from eac cuesheet is showing only the audio part of track1 index0(hidden track)= 4" in my example. But on my burned CD, when I rewind on a cd player, I can read 6seconds on index0: first the 2" pregap+the 4" hidden audio

What I may have done wrong in the reaper project is setting an index0 after the pregap, though it changed nothing on the resulting cuesheets when I removed it.
I'll test your new DDP2cue tomorrow and I'll send you the "correct" DDP files.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:10 PM   #253
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hmmm .... Not exactly that . I was trying to explain that the 2"00 of "necessary" pregap belongs to index0, but it's not written in the cuesheets from eac or sonoris.
The track1 index0 from eac cuesheet is showing only the audio part of track1 index0(hidden track)= 4" in my example. But on my burned CD, when I rewind on a cd player, I can read 6seconds on index0: first the 2" pregap+the 4" hidden audio
That is quite interesting information!

Having done some experiments with ImgBurn I can confirm, that it always adds two seconds of silence at the beginning of a CD, even when the cue sheet already specifies the first pregap. In the latter case the pregap simply gets extended by two seconds. This is in sync with what ImgBurn does when reading CDs: it simply leaves out the first two seconds.

This maybe a sane thing to do, as may computer drives can not read the first two seconds anyway, I believe. But I'm not sure if all programs reading cue sheets will behave in a similar way. For the moment DDP2Cue will include the full pregap specified in the DDP, which in the case of ImgBurn will lead to a two seconds longer pregap.

When you burned the Reaper DDP with Sonoris DDP Creator it did not add anything to the six seconds pregap specified in your DDP.

Quote:
What I may have done wrong in the reaper project is setting an index0 after the pregap, though it changed nothing on the resulting cuesheets when I removed it.
In the end, that's a question for Sergej, I guess. Because he decided to ignore your first index0 marker anyway, and probably has his reasons for doing so.

Quote:
I'll test your new DDP2cue tomorrow and I'll send you the "correct" DDP files.
I'll be curious to hear, what you find out. If I find time, I'll try and see how other burn programs behave with regard to always adding two seconds, even for cue sheets with track 1 index 0 specified.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:34 PM   #254
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Keep up the excellent work gentlemen!

This issue with ImgBurn adding unspecified pregap is long known and will likely not be fixed.
http://forum.imgburn.com/index.php?s...ndpost&p=62497
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/maste...ap-tracks.html

Also, has anyone tested CDBurnerXP?

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Old 02-24-2012, 02:20 PM   #255
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Keep up the excellent work gentlemen!
Thank you.

Quote:
This issue with ImgBurn adding unspecified pregap is long known and will likely not be fixed.
http://forum.imgburn.com/index.php?s...ndpost&p=62497
I didn't know that. Interesting to read that he adds the two seconds just in case anybody would forget that otherwise, and not because he thinks that's the meaning of the cue sheet syntax. I'd tend to add the standard two seconds only if no pregap is specified already--but maybe I'm not understanding the issue to the full extend.

Quote:
Also, has anyone tested CDBurnerXP?
Just did. When I import my cuesheet

Code:
FILE "test.wav"
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    INDEX 00 00:00:00
    INDEX 01 00:04:00
it ignores the pregap altogether, so I didn't even try burning. But interestingly enough Nero accepted my cue sheet and extended the pregap to six seconds, like ImgBurn did.
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Old 02-24-2012, 02:49 PM   #256
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This problem is maddening. Maybe Reaper devs will program a solution into Reaper, once realizing there is no truly satisfactory consumer solution.
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:34 PM   #257
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This problem is maddening. Maybe Reaper devs will program a solution into Reaper, once realizing there is no truly satisfactory consumer solution.
I'm not even sure it's a problem. Who cares if there are two seconds more before the first track, which CD drives may not even be able to read out (due to limitation in the SCSI commands used). And there are many burning applications which I haven't tested. Furthermore I've never had a CD with a hidden track manufactured from a DDP, so I'm not sure how a plant would interpret a DDP in this regard. But since DDPs (as opposed to most other CD image formats I have seen) usually include the default two seconds of pause at the beginning, I'd expect they would not mess around with it any more.

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Old 02-25-2012, 05:23 AM   #258
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@ Anrug
your new DDP2cue is working on my project now!
But as expected, the resulting cuesheet is different:
your index 0 is 2seconds longer (6" ) than the cuesheet from sonoris or EAC
(4", because it doesn't include the pregap).

I think it would be nice if you could do a "modded" version of your DDP2cue so it doesn't include the 2" pregap, because:
cue wav is not used by the plant, only for testing purpose (studio/clients),
and in 99% it will be burned with a software that will automatically add the pregap anyway (nero/imgburn/sonoris etc...).
I think the key for this is the cue's .wav image should be 2" shorter than the DDP's .dat image ...

EDIT: I've just checked that, the sonoris exported cue .wav image doesn't include the pregap: it's 2" shorter than the ddp and 2" shorter than your .wav image!
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Old 02-25-2012, 08:44 AM   #259
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I think it would be nice if you could do a "modded" version of your DDP2cue so it doesn't include the 2" pregap, because:
cue wav is not used by the plant, only for testing purpose (studio/clients),
Just a side node: some plants accept that format (and even Nero images). Would be interesting to know how they deal with adding two more seconds to the first pause.

Quote:
and in 99% it will be burned with a software that will automatically add the pregap anyway (nero/imgburn/sonoris etc...).
I've now also checked cdrecord (current version 3.01), and have to tell you it's also adding the two seconds. Seems like I might have a false understanding of what a cue sheet's track 1 index 0 entry means. But it's hard to tell.

Quote:
I think the key for this is the cue's .wav image should be 2" shorter than the DDP's .dat image ...
Ok, so that would mean:

1) if a DDP's first pause is exactly two seconds, we chop it off and do not specify a pause at all in the cue sheet, assuming it was only silence anyway and the burning/mastering application will add the two seconds again

2) if a DDP's first pause is longer than two seconds (which is probably a hidden track), we shorten the pause by two seconds assuming there was now audio in there anyway and the burning/mastering application will prepend two seconds to our pause again

Certainly doable. Ideally I'd even check if it's really silence we're chopping off and spit out a warning otherwise. Pyramix e.g. let's you easily create DDPs with a hidden track that starts right at 00:00:00, hard to tell if that's a sensible thing to do though.

Quote:
EDIT: I've just checked that, the sonoris exported cue .wav image doesn't include the pregap: it's 2" shorter than the ddp and 2" shorter than your .wav image!
Yepp I know. It's been a "tradition" among many DAWs to include the default two seconds in the DDP. Pyramix is the only one I know of, which has a setting to not include the first pause in the DDP (the DDP format itself offers very many options on how to describe a CD, far more than most software would be willing to support). Interestingly this setting does not have any effect if I do a hidden first track (specify the first index 0 myself) in the project. So it does only add the default pause, if I don't specify one. This all is for DDPs, not cue sheets.

So, I'll see how I can best adjust my software to the forces being. The nasty thing is, that this also affects my DDP creation tool cue2ddp.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:24 AM   #260
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What about cdrdao? It has some info about the hidden track.
http://cdrdao.sourceforge.net/

My Son and I are currently working on a basic front-end for either cdrecord or cdrdao, or both. Andreas, which one is better?

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Old 02-25-2012, 11:38 AM   #261
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Ideally I'd even check if it's really silence we're chopping off and spit out a warning otherwise. Pyramix e.g. let's you easily create DDPs with a hidden track that starts right at 00:00:00, hard to tell if that's a sensible thing to do though.
here in reaper when I put audio in the first 2seconds of the project, it's converted to silence when exported to DDP. No warning, but everyone should know it (it's explained with the DDP export "manual"):
I think it's the same in sonoris, you can't have audio in the 2"pregap
but index0 (or index1) 0:00:00 sets the begining of the CD after the 2" of silence pregap

what I think now:
DDP include the pregap
cue/wav don't
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Old 02-25-2012, 11:43 AM   #262
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What about cdrdao? [...]
My Son and I are currently working on a basic front-end for either cdrecord or cdrdao, or both. Andreas, which one is better?
Well, I'm probably not expert enough to answer that. I feel attracted to cdrdao because it's scope is disc-at-once and CD only, also it's source code is much more readable than cdrecord. But cdrdao is not developed any more and it's cue parser is a bit limited, also with the old driver tables you may have to explicitly enable CD text for some drives, if you need that.

I'd go with both options. What feature are you missing from the existing GUI front-ends for those tools? And which platform are you interested in?

I have been thinking of calling cdrecord from my ddpinfo tool, as I call SoX for playback (experimental), but I'm not sure it really adds much value. These command line tools are meant to be used in combination anyway. You could burn a DDP like this (upcoming version):

ddpinfo MyDDP -w MyCueImage.wav
cdrecord -dao -text cuefile=MyCueImage.cue

And of course you can make a batch file to be used a droplet for this.

I had once considered adding DDP reading support to one of the open source burning programs, but the DDP license (and DCA) does not like that, is not compatible with the open source licenses. That's why my DDP tools (mainly cue2ddp and ddpinfo) are not open source either.

At the end of the day, given how cheap the new generation of DDP software is (Wave Editor, Sonoris, DSP Quattro) it's not too attractive reinventing the wheel I feel, but I may be wrong.
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Old 02-25-2012, 12:29 PM   #263
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I'd go with both options. What feature are you missing from the existing GUI front-ends for those tools? And which platform are you interested in?
I'm new to trying to do any coding with the exception of a few Reaper python scripts . My Son is doing most all the coding, while I'm learning at the same time.

I wanted to see if we could create a real simple front-end just for burning a cue/wav. We are doing this in visual basic. I'll send you something soon.
Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:37 PM   #264
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what I think now:
DDP include the pregap
cue/wav don't
Try this one, it should always chop of two seconds from the pause before the first track. Should give an error when the pause is shorter than two seconds.

Also new: when the DDP has CD text the appropriate fields in the cue sheet are filled out (TITLE, PERFORMER, SONGWRITER to be exact), an extra binary CD text file (linked from the cue sheet with the CDTEXTFILE command) is only written if the DDP has other CD text fields set than the three mentioned above.

Please be aware that software is not tested much yet!

EDIT: bug fixed, where audio file was too long, posted a new version, thanks to vinx!
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:01 PM   #265
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wow, that was fast!
Thank you very much Anrug!

(I've sent you a PM)

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Old 02-27-2012, 05:29 AM   #266
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This latest DDP2cue is working perfect for me on the projects I've tested so far (I could null the .wav file with the sonoris one).
Many thanks

I must say I've checked a CD from the plant for wich I had sent a reaper's made DDP and I noticed there's the regular 2" Pregap I had specified. Reaper's DDP export seems to be perfect...

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Old 02-27-2012, 08:21 AM   #267
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Can't wait to try this, thanks everybody!
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:22 AM   #268
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A bit OT, but I mentioned how flaky the CD format is, and how the emulation community butts heads with it left and right. Here's a perfect example: http://dknute.livejournal.com/40102.html
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:44 PM   #269
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First off, thank god for reaper and the tools by anrug. I don't think anything beats Reaper.

That said, all this talk of extended pre-gaps and such has gotten me a little nervous. Well, nervous is an overstatement; it's just two extra seconds, at worst.

What is the ideal way of working with Reaper and DDP Tools to get identical results between the DDP and .bin/.cue formats? Do I even need to use DDP Tools?

Here's what I did:
1) Create track markers in Reaper, using the song title as the name of the track.
2) Export the result using Reaper's "bin/cue" format, specifying 2000ms for the "Extra lead-in silence for disc."
3) Add missing CDTEXT information in the .cue sheet ("ISRC," "PERFORMER," and "ALBUM TITLE").
4) Convert the .bin/cue to DDP, using DDP2Cue.


Will the .bin/cue disc have an extra 2 seconds of silence at the beginning? I would test all of this out, but I have run out of blank cds and my DDP Creator trial has expired.

Thanks for your help.
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:38 PM   #270
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you could import your ddp in reaper!

But I think you would have better:
create a DDP with reaper DDP export:
- read the manual that appears when DDP export is selected
- don't put audio in the first 2 sec
- check your markers are on 1/75s, first marker at 2"00 for standard
- choose time selection export (start at 0"00) to get precise cd length

if needed, convert the ddp to cue/wav via DDP2cue and burn a cd for checking purpose.
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:48 AM   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glitched View Post
That said, all this talk of extended pre-gaps and such has gotten me a little nervous. Well, nervous is an overstatement; it's just two extra seconds, at worst.
Stick to what vinx has suggested and all will be fine: have your first marker always at exactly 2" and no audio before that, then make sure the rendered time span starts at 0". And stay away from any non-English Characters in CD text fields, Reaper does not handle them correctly (yet).

And to your other question: DDP export and cue/bin export will usually produce (slightly) different results, they use a different concept as far as I can tell. DDP export is certainly more powerful and more completely documented, so I'd go for that.

If you want cue/bin export and DDP export to produce identical images, you need to restrict yourself a bit:
- set the first track start marker to exactly 2" with no audio before
- layout your music exactly as you would like it on the CD, including pauses between tracks
- name all track start markers like this: "#My Title", make sure there is no space after the # (DDP export eates them cue/bin does not)
- do not use any other meta data (they would not make it into the cue/bin)
- do not use any non-English characters in your title, and don't use double quotes (cue/bin export turns them into single quotes DDP export does not)
- do not use pause markers "!" nor disc meta data markers "@" (they would not make it into the cue/bin)
- render DDP with custom time span from 0" to where you want the CD to end
- render cue/bin with custom time span from 2" to where you want the CD to end, use track mode "markers define new tracks", check "only use markers starting with #", do not add any lead-in silence

EDIT: Sorry, just did another test and it turns out DDP export does not write CD text track titles, if no disc title is given. So it's a bit tricky, you'd have to stay away from track titles as well, simply use markers named "#" and all will be fine!

So I'd not recommend trying to get cue/bin and DDP to produce identical images at the moment.

(All this is for normal CDs without the hidden track trick.)

Quote:
Here's what I did:
1) Create track markers in Reaper, using the song title as the name of the track.
2) Export the result using Reaper's "bin/cue" format, specifying 2000ms for the "Extra lead-in silence for disc."
Don't do that, the burning software will add that any way.

Quote:
3) Add missing CDTEXT information in the .cue sheet ("ISRC," "PERFORMER," and "ALBUM TITLE").
4) Convert the .bin/cue to DDP, using DDP2Cue.
You mean "cue2ddp" I assume? That's a different tool, which has not been discussed here, because Reaper has DDP export built in. I'd use that, as you can enter your meta data within Reaper already.

Quote:
Will the .bin/cue disc have an extra 2 seconds of silence at the beginning?
If you don't add "extra lead-in silence for disc", all will be fine. If you do, the first pause on your CD might indeed become 4 seconds long, but you'd not really notice that because a CD player starts playing from the first track, not before.

Last edited by anrug; 03-09-2012 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:35 AM   #272
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I also noticed there the Sonoris DDP Creator has some problems with DDP images coming from Reaper. When I insert the ISRC code in Reaper, the DDP Creator always doubles them. One on Index 00 and a second one on index 01 for each track. The DDP Creator only wants them at index 00... Still Reaper has no checksum and PQsheet printing and so I had to go back to the DDP Creator again for my DDP export. I will also check the reaper project attached to the last message and see if I can help you.
By the way, Is there anyone who knows a bit more about the marker script that was once created by the guy who made the DDP plugin? (He did a great job, anyway!) I'm not really familiar with installing python scripts, so can anyone tell me what I need to install it with reaper?
Many Thanks!!
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Old 03-14-2012, 08:27 AM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaaijmusic View Post
I also noticed there the Sonoris DDP Creator has some problems with DDP images coming from Reaper. When I insert the ISRC code in Reaper, the DDP Creator always doubles them. One on Index 00 and a second one on index 01 for each track. The DDP Creator only wants them at index 00...
Really, does it? What is the message it gives you? It should not complain, as there is nothing wrong with the ISRC set during the pause and the actual track. Some programs even write the ISRC only in the pause but not the track (which if it get's taken literally would probably be wrong, as you want the ISRC to be embedded in the tracks Q-subcode) and the masters have turned out perfectly fine. Safest is certainly to write the ISRC for index 0 and index 1, like Pyramix/Gear (among others) does.

Quote:
Still Reaper has no checksum
I don't know if they plan implementing it, but there are many free tools even for Windows which generate MD5 checksums, search for "md5" or "md5sum". It may be worth noting, that the checksums are not part of the DDP format. I've seen at least 4-5 different flavours so far. If you're familiar with the command line, you can also use my "ddpinfo" program (http://ddp.andreasruge.de) as an interim solution. With the "-x" option it adds checksums to an existing DDP image (Pyramix and Seuqoia style at the moment).

Last edited by anrug; 03-14-2012 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 03-14-2012, 02:39 PM   #274
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Here's a nice tool for generating checksums: http://www.exactfile.com/

I also noticed the double ISRC in the Sonoris DDP player but when converting the DDP to cue with Andreas's ddpinfo tool the cue sheet looks perfect. I don't think Reaper's DDP output is faulty, maybe this is "by design" in the Sonoris stuff...

Andreas, I tried your cue2ddp tool too and it's great! Thank you for such a nice app. Although I noticed that the generated md5 checksum fails with the IMAGE.DAT file. The other files validate without problems. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:53 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mullerpeter View Post
I also noticed the double ISRC in the Sonoris DDP player but when converting the DDP to cue with Andreas's ddpinfo tool the cue sheet looks perfect.
I hate to say it: that's simply because the parser I wrote is tolerant in that regard, so it doesn't prove anything more than that.

Quote:
I don't think Reaper's DDP output is faulty, maybe this is "by design" in the Sonoris stuff...
I just checked with the Sonoris Player and don't get any error message when opening and checking a Reaper DDP with ISRCs. What exactly did you experience?

Quote:
Andreas, I tried your cue2ddp tool too and it's great! Thank you for such a nice app. Although I noticed that the generated md5 checksum fails with the IMAGE.DAT file. The other files validate without problems. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?
Strange, have never seen that in my tests. Would you mind sending me a very short (< 30 sec.) DDP which shows that behaviour?
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:57 PM   #276
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No, the Sonoris player doesn't give any error messages. That's why I also think the ddp image is ok. I just see the ISRC next to both index0 and index1 as seen on the attached image.

I sent you an email with a test ddp file. Many thanks for checking the checksum issue.
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File Type: png ddp_isrc.png (7.3 KB, 305 views)
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:43 AM   #277
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Thanks for your replies! Much appreciated! I downloaded the ddptools and will check them later today! I think your right in saying that the problem has to do with the DDP Creator. I bought it three years ago, long before Reaper had the DDP option, but I was already a big fan of Reaper by that time and also a daily user... The interface of the DDP creator has changed over the last few years, which is a little problem for me, because it isn't accessible anymore for my Braille and speech software, which I need to use with my computer. So as you can imagine, I'm really happy with the DDP plugin in Reaper!!
Some weeks ago I had to master an album which I also produced for a client and we needed an index 02 for the hidden track at the end of the cd, which isn't possible with Reaper, so I had to import the ddp from Reaper into the Sonoris DDP Creator to add the index 02 for the hidden track and so I noticed that the ddp creator had some problems with the ISRC. (Actually my girlfriend did)
Sorry for not cutting this long story short, but you'll probably understand what I mean anyway. It will surely be a good option to create a Cue/bin or cue/wave, edit the cuesheet with Notepad and convert it to DDP... It's been a long time since I used command line options, but I try to find out which commands to use.
Many thanks!!
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:39 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaaijmusic View Post
Thanks for your replies! Much appreciated! I downloaded the ddptools and will check them later today! I think your right in saying that the problem has to do with the DDP Creator.
Sorry to be pedantic, but I didn't mean to say that. I can't see anything wrong with the DDP creator yet.

Quote:
Some weeks ago I had to master an album which I also produced for a client and we needed an index 02 for the hidden track at the end of the cd, which isn't possible with Reaper, so I had to import the ddp from Reaper into the Sonoris DDP Creator to add the index 02 for the hidden track and so I noticed that the ddp creator had some problems with the ISRC. (Actually my girlfriend did)
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. What "problems" exactly did she notice? Any specific error message, any command not working as expected?

Quote:
Sorry for not cutting this long story short, but you'll probably understand what I mean anyway.
Actually the part about index 02 I'd be interested to hear more about, I'm not so familiar with the different "hidden track" approaches. You simple want the last track on the CD to have and index 02? How does that hide the music? Are you also adding a long section of silence or something? All I know is that many CD player cannot skip to these (sub-)indexes, so usually you can simply leave them off.

Quote:
It will surely be a good option to create a Cue/bin or cue/wave, edit the cuesheet with Notepad and convert it to DDP... It's been a long time since I used command line options, but I try to find out which commands to use.
Read the manual and if you have trouble, drop me a mail. At least the output should work pretty well with a braille line, I think. But if there is anything that can be done, to improve the usability with such a device, let me know!
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:16 AM   #279
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Thanks! I was just reading the manual of your DDPtools, so that won't be a problem, I think. It will surely work with a Braille display, screenreaders don't have problems with command line tools, actually.
Your right, most cd players will not recognize markers other than index 00 or 01, but I don't like one track on my cuesheet with the hidden track being a part of it. We had 30 seconds of silence after the last track and the hidden track was the guitar part of the last track with the Piano melody of the first one. Considder it as the end of the story.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:47 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaaijmusic
Your right, most cd players will not recognize markers other than index 00 or 01, but I don't like one track on my cuesheet with the hidden track being a part of it. We had 30 seconds of silence after the last track and the hidden track was the guitar part of the last track with the Piano melody of the first one.
Ah, I understand. Would be nice if Reaper did offer to set sub-indixes in tracks but it's probably low priority to them. And there is still code from Sergej waiting to be included, right? So, who knows if it's not already in the pipeline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mullerpeter View Post
Andreas, I tried your cue2ddp tool too and it's great! Thank you for such a nice app. Although I noticed that the generated md5 checksum fails with the IMAGE.DAT file. The other files validate without problems. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?
Nope, there actually was a bug in my code, which is fixed now. I've posted an updated version at http://ddp.andreasruge.de.
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