Yet another smooth jazzy track...

saulopv · 11-03-2009, 03:01 AM

Hey folks,

Would you please have a listen to this and let me know how it translates? I'm not sure I can improve the mix any further without help.

MIX 1: http://www.box.net/shared/i6h77dlii6
MIX 2: http://www.box.net/shared/84b8z1ffc8
MIX 3 (and final, for now): http://www.box.net/shared/o7sazrvv2s

Your time and ears are much appreciated.

moio · 11-03-2009, 03:43 AM

Hi,

first: nice tune, congratulations! I like the guitar sound.

What comes first to my mind concerning the mix: Compared to the vast guitar and E-Piano the drums seem a bit too roomy to me. The relation is not right to my ears. Give the drums more reverb/a bigger room.

Cheers,
m

stupeT · 11-03-2009, 05:16 AM

Coooool tune

Drums -2dB, Bass +2dB, Solo Guitar -1dB... otherwise the overall sound seems to be OK...

saulopv · 11-03-2009, 05:49 AM

Thanks for your responses and compliments, guys.

I tried to keep the drums' level slightly lower than everything else and hipassed in the room bus. Do you mean there isn't enough of it or that this particular reverb isnt' working out?

Relative levels seem to be what always catches me out, so that is particularly helpful. I will check it out when I next get a chance.

stratman · 11-03-2009, 11:55 AM

Very nice playing and arrangement Saulo.

I agree with moio's comment that the drums are a bit roomy. But what do I know about drum sounds after my recent effort.

On my system, I agree with stupeT. The bass (instrument) could come up a bit and maybe the guitar could go down a tad, but I like the tone, presence and immediacy of it.

Overall, the track sounds big and spacious.

Pete

Sheppola · 11-03-2009, 12:45 PM

I agree with some of the aboves.
Overall sound quality is excellent.

I didn't think the drums were too,"Roomy" just out-of-mix a little.

Drop the guitar track to zero and mix all the other parts so they sit nice and no one part seems to hog the stereo field in placement or volume.
Then bring the Guitar back in so it doesn't stand out in volume by much if at all.It will stand out by being the,"Solo" instrument IMHO.If you have to use a volume envelope on the guitar to lower and raise the volume where required if parts,"Jump -out".Same with any of the instruments as they progress/change.
When near the end of mixing or after rendering walk away from the speakers and distract yourself and then see if anything stands out as wrong with the mix.

HTH

smueske · 11-03-2009, 01:12 PM

And just to play "Yet Another Opinion" -- there's definitely something wonky about the drums. But its really only apparent in quieter sections. In my mind, I think it is the room (which I'd cut way back). Not sure if it is over heads, ambient mics, or what's introducing it, but it's conflicting with the space of the other instruments. I'd go for less room and more reverb. I do think the guitar is a touch too loud, too, but I probably wouldn't mess with it much. Love the clav sound and that bass is just dreamy and cool. Best of luck with this. Digging the song overall!

Steve

taigablues · 11-03-2009, 01:46 PM

First of all, great tune! Great playing! Love the guitar sound - silky smooth...

I also don't have a problem with the drum sound in terms of it being too 'roomy'or small - except for the snare, which I think might benefit from a touch of bigger reverb. Also, the drums and the bass in general need to come up in the mix. The balance between the guitar and the keys is fine, but the rhythm section is defintely too quiet IMO.

spikemullings · 11-03-2009, 01:59 PM

Great track and great sounds Saulo! Superb playing as ever.
I agree 100% with Steve.
I was trying to think what is it about the drums that is not sitting so well. So on a whim I fired up spotify and had a listen to Crusaders Street Life (what a track!). The drums on that are so sharp and present. Each element of the kit (espesh kick and snare) is in and out so very quickly that there is no clutter and yet the beat is just rock solid. Kick is actually quite loud for that disco feel of course.
So I'm no expert in this genre at all but maybe gating the kick and snare quite heavily and as Steve says use very focussed reverb rather than room ambience.
Really enjoyed this Saulo.

camerondye · 11-03-2009, 02:04 PM

Frist to start off, I like the song and the direction or I wouldn't even comment to you so take everything with a grain of salt because it's only my opinion and it may very well suck.

Well I think by now you know the drums are the focus of everybody and me also. When the song first comes in the drums instantly remind me of Superstition by Stevie Wonder. Which isn't a bad drum sound but it completely doesn't match your sound. Try making some bigger cuts in the 400-500 region on the drums to get some of the midrange out a little bit. I would also pull the reigns in volume wise on a couple parts of the song. The midrange cut might help the snare but if it needs more try HP filtering it to thin it out a touch. You need tight sounding drums IMO.

The lead guitar might need a touch of a hp filter instead of turning down the track. I think if you get some more of the lows out it will stop conflicting with the other tracks and sit on top a little better. Love the guitar tone and great playing overall. At 4:43ish the guitar starts sounding like it is clipping something...mic, preamp, AD...etc possibly.

Good luck and great start on this.
cam

carbon · 11-03-2009, 03:20 PM

Nice tune!

As just about everybody mentioned the drums, I will also - they sound like they're not in the same room with the rest of the band.

So, maybe cutting down the room levels and adding a bit of similar reverb that other instruments have could help?

I'm an amateur though...

Tedwood · 11-03-2009, 03:49 PM

Saulopv, well done my friend.

Playing is great, but if I were just trust my ears I would say the drums were done some other time and you couldn't get rid of the reverb.

So I can't really tell what the desired effect should be. The reverb on the guitar is a studio amp sound, not a room reverb. Mixed mixes to my ears.

I can't arrange or play this kind of thing at all but since you put it up for critique I would say a good idea would be to strip a lot of that reverb back and then add in a reverb buss for "glue"

I also have no hesitation in saying the drums are too loud for sure, lower them a tad. try and give the bass more authority and then see if the guitar is still too loud

saulopv · 11-04-2009, 04:51 AM

Wow, that's a lot of very useful feedback there guys. I really appreciate the time you all have taken to listen to it and post here.

I suppose it is pretty clear I need to work a little more on the drums sound and some relative levels. (Doh! I was pretty much happy with most of the drums sound, probably messed it up when I created a flipping room reverb bus attempting to “glue” the mix a little bit!) Perhaps I will also investigate a more focused drums sound.

I felt the bass was loud enough but I suppose that'll probably be due to not enough bass trapping in my small room causing bumps in the lower frequency range I hear. Always living and learning.

I am taking your (very constructive!) criticism onboard and will try again. Hopefully I’ll get a little closer this time.

saulopv · 11-04-2009, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camerondye

At 4:43ish the guitar starts sounding like it is clipping something...mic, preamp, AD...etc possibly.

Yeah, I suppose I picked the strings a bit harder than usual which drove the valves a little more than I meant on the amp. I kinda liked the "smokyness" of that, so I left it there on purpose.

saulopv · 11-04-2009, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spikemullings

...So on a whim I fired up spotify and had a listen to Crusaders Street Life (what a track!). The drums on that are so sharp and present. Each element of the kit (espesh kick and snare) is in and out so very quickly that there is no clutter and yet the beat is just rock solid. Kick is actually quite loud for that disco feel of course.

Thanks for that, Spike. I will try and check that track out as a possible reference.

smueske · 11-04-2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

probably messed it up when I created a flipping room reverb bus attempting to “glue” the mix a little bit!

Ah, so it's not from the mics at all! In that case, maybe you could post your reverb settings. My gut feeling is that you have an "RT" setting cranked and fairly low depth (which would focus on a small space near the front). I'd ease up on the RT setting, set the drums further back depth-wise, and bring back the mix level a little. It's really difficult to say what's causing the problem without knowing what controls the reverb has, but I'd be willing to bet it's an RT setting of some sort. The problem, for me, is that there's too much focus on the space of the drums. Sort of like hearing too much container and not enough drum (if that makes any sense).

saulopv · 11-04-2009, 12:45 PM

No, Steve. Drums are Addictive Drums (built-in reverb switched off) and the reverb is a Small Hall IR loaded in Reverberate LE.

I will look out for the control you mentioned and also experiment with different impulses, etc. Not tonight though... watching the footie!

Thanks for your comments.

stratman · 11-04-2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saulopv

No, Steve. Drums are Addictive Drums (built-in reverb switched off) and the reverb is a Small Hall IR loaded in Reverberate LE.

I will look out for the control you mentioned and also experiment with different impulses, etc. Not tonight though... watching the footie!

Thanks for your comments.

What's the distance of your room mic in AD? Have you tried reducing it?

Just a thought

Pete

camerondye · 11-04-2009, 01:23 PM

There was a fill at 3:01 that made me think that they were canned drums but other than that I though they were real myself and I didn't want to say it on a hunch. Keep the programming and use a completely different kit...the kit just doesn't match the song. This is an easy fix I think. BTW, excellent job on drum programming...I need to take your class on drum programming because you did an excellent job. Tell us your process on getting them to sound so natural.

The only problem with changing the kit sound is that every single one of the suggestions will now most likely be off and you will have to re-post the changed version.
cam

saulopv · 11-05-2009, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stratman

What's the distance of your room mic in AD? Have you tried reducing it?

Just a thought

Pete

Very good question, Pete. Will check it out soon! I just picked the clean DW kit (with subwoofer) and EQ/Compressed/Tape saturated it in AD itself. Don't remember looking at that particular setting.

Thanks for the thought!

saulopv · 11-05-2009, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camerondye

There was a fill at 3:01 that made me think that they were canned drums but other than that I though they were real myself and I didn't want to say it on a hunch. Keep the programming and use a completely different kit...the kit just doesn't match the song. This is an easy fix I think. BTW, excellent job on drum programming...I need to take your class on drum programming because you did an excellent job. Tell us your process on getting them to sound so natural.

The only problem with changing the kit sound is that every single one of the suggestions will now most likely be off and you will have to re-post the changed version.
cam

Thanks very much for the compliment, Cam.

For this particular song, I just played the part on a korg nanopad (makes it a lot of fun!). I have to admit I did use quite a few fills from the AD library as well though. No quantizing other than manually moving a few hits here and there.

I think we may have to agree to disagree on the kit sound though. Perhaps it is not what most people would choose for this type of song, but it was certainly a conscious decision and I like it. I will just try my best to make it sit nicely in the mix (and once I fail miserably, I will probably realise that I should have taken your advice in the first place!)

camerondye · 11-05-2009, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saulopv

Thanks very much for the compliment, Cam.

For this particular song, I just played the part on a korg nanopad (makes it a lot of fun!). I have to admit I did use quite a few fills from the AD library as well though. No quantizing other than manually moving a few hits here and there.

I think we may have to agree to disagree on the kit sound though. Perhaps it is not what most people would choose for this type of song, but it was certainly a conscious decision and I like it. I will just try my best to make it sit nicely in the mix (and once I fail miserably, I will probably realise that I should have taken your advice in the first place!)

I've been starting to try and play the parts on a nice set of pads that I have but it still takes some practice. On the drum choice, if you like it...you like it. I think it's a great sounding kit.
cam

jussi · 11-05-2009, 07:14 AM

Just found out about reverbnation because of this thread.. its a bit bloated with so many features but Iam getting the hang of it lol

Here's my link.. I will be listening to the songs on your profiles.

http://www.reverbnation.com/iursnitram

Anyone made any money with the revenue thing they have there?

stratman · 11-05-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saulopv

Very good question, Pete. Will check it out soon! I just picked the clean DW kit (with subwoofer) and EQ/Compressed/Tape saturated it in AD itself. Don't remember looking at that particular setting.

Thanks for the thought!

No I'm definitely wrong on that point. The clean DW kit (with subwoofer) has a minimum distance room mic setting. Maybe the room level fader just needs to come down a bit. Dunno.

Pete

saulopv · 11-06-2009, 02:59 AM

Yeah, Pete... that's exactly what I found when I had a quick look last night. Bringing down the room mic is one of things I have just tried, although by doing so the drums lost quite a bit of "sparkle". I then tried to compensate a little for this with AD's master EQ.

I tried this new mix, following some of the suggestions above:

http://www.box.net/shared/84b8z1ffc8

Any improvement? Still badly missing the point?

Again, thanks for taking the time to listen and comment.

taigablues · 11-06-2009, 12:41 PM

Sounds awesome!

Has a really cool, George Benson kinda vibe, I think.

stratman · 11-06-2009, 02:04 PM

To me the drums have lost some of their life now.

I wonder whether something with similar settings to the AD PopRock(Medium) Edgy Kit setting might work. This is bright, but has a lower room setting.

But change the Edgy Kit kick to the DW Woofer and the Toms to the DW Toms. So you're back to something similar to your original kit, but with the sampler and insert settings of the Edgy Kit. Then tweak things a bit from there.

I would point out that this is all nitpicking, because it's a great track

Pete

saulopv · 11-10-2009, 05:10 AM

Thanks for the suggestion, Pete. Will give that a go as well, why not!

I wonder whether the drums have actually lost some of their life or you feel that way due to their lower overall volume in the mix?

Tedwood · 11-10-2009, 06:47 AM

To me the kit sounds a lot better without the big roomy sound now. I don't really like the DW woofer drum for much. I haven't used on anything yet.

My choice would be the Tama kick drum but carefully eq'd with phat but tight bottom I would only fine tune the other kit pieces.

Not to be too presumptuous but It's just easier to show you pic of a good tight kick I use a lot - note how the eq resembles a fit lady laying on her back, oops! maybe I had too much of that mirror image therapy

Well just a suggestion

saulopv · 11-11-2009, 05:35 AM

Thanks again for listening and the suggestion, Tedwood. I must say I never thought of creating EQ curves based on ladies' curves! Surely it SHOULD sound great?!

I have just made a few very sutble alterations to MIX2 and think that (at least for now) MIX3 will be final. Perhaps to be revisited in the future.

Oh, here it is: http://www.box.net/shared/o7sazrvv2s

Many thanks to everyone who cared enough to listen and post here. Seriously appreciated.

camerondye · 11-11-2009, 06:22 AM

Wow, this third mix is sounding a lot better...a lot more even sounding. The lead guitar isn't sticking out as much, the snare isn't either. Everything is sounding a lot more even. Great job on a great song.
cam

smueske · 11-11-2009, 09:27 AM

This third mix is definitely a lot better in terms of the instruments playing with each other. I actually think the drums could come up in volume a little. They do seem to lack a little sparkle. Mostly, the snare sound could use a little more definition. Anyway, it's still a great track and I think you are heading in the right direction.

saulopv · 11-12-2009, 04:06 AM

Thanks again, Cameron & Steve.

I think I will give this track a rest for now (as the basic mix seems to be more or less listenable as it is) and perhaps revisit it in a few weeks. I think I'll also have some other drums sounds to play with by then, so we'll see what happens.

PS: Cam, I haven't forgotten you. Things have just been really hectic with work and family but will get back to you soon.

kindafishy · 11-13-2009, 08:39 AM

Why do I feel like I am sitting in the waiting room at my doctor's office?

This is really awesome man. Great composition and great sounds. I really enjoyed listening to this. It's amazing the variety of stuff one gets to listen to around here...

somogyi23 · 11-14-2009, 02:40 AM

Fantastic music! Awesome

Tedwood · 11-14-2009, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kindafishy

Why do I feel like I am sitting in the waiting room at my doctor's office?

This is really awesome man. Great composition and great sounds. I really enjoyed listening to this. It's amazing the variety of stuff one gets to listen to around here...

I like the sound of your doctor's waiting room

shemp · 11-15-2009, 01:51 PM

excellent tones all around!

capthook · 11-16-2009, 12:37 AM

Really smooth - me likey!

My recs:
Less hihat - and pan more center
Master Eq: +2.0dB @ 3.0K

saulopv · 11-16-2009, 03:57 AM

Thanks again for listening and taking the time to post here, guys.

henge · Yesterday, 07:23 PM

Sweet tones and great playing. Do I hear a Yellowjackets influence? I only listened to mix 3. Good stuff.