Old 05-17-2017, 12:23 PM   #1
hopi
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Default Windows 10 Pro RANT

I just need to vent and say this:

History... we built a great new computer and were intending to use Thunderbolt on it via the ASUS TB card.

We first intalled win 7 and then learned we had to have 10 to use the TB...
After exhaustive attempts with advice from EVERYONE possible, we found the TB to be not really working for an audio device [foucusrite Scarlett] so we tossed the TB card and the scarlett and went to RME 802 Pro.

We still had win 10 pro 64 as the OS.

Spent a good month installed and setting up all the vaious softs, FX, lib's etc. and it was all working fine.

There was one instance where the OS got hosed because of a M$ auto update that got interrupted because of a power failure that happend while it was going on. That left the system useless but I did have an image back up of a week prior and restored from that.

All seemed OK until... the brand new Dell 43 inch monitor suddently went dead.
OK... deal with Dell and got a replacement delivered a day ago. So now that works.
Expected to just boot up... ahhhh but no.
Instead the nortorius Welcome screen hangs [been there before so we wait it out] ...Eventually that screen puts up an error notice never seen before.

Group Policy Service error... Look it up on the net and find all the solutions [a major registry edit]...which of course you can't do if you can't actully boot up... [M$ ...how can you be sooooo bad]
...and reading the info on it the 'fix' [if you can get to it] merely makes the service run in it's own separate process. WHY THE HELL NOT DO THAT BY DEFAULT M$?

OK... well then let's restore from the latest system image again... that one was made about a month ago when everything was working perfectly.

We do that and still get the Group Policy error during the Welcome screen.
So very clearly whatever it saved and restored was not truly and exactly what was working at that time.

Try the recommened method to boot from the install disk and troubleshoot to 'repair start up'.... hahahaha Can't repair [M$ ...if I ever get my hands around your neck it will be a pleasure to strangle you]

Currently trying the restore from image one more time... but not much hope really...

So what I see now that I did not see until now:

Win 10 may be just lovely, until it eats itself and then you can be really screwed with no way out.

I am about one day away, some more attempts first, to go back to fresh install of Win7 Pro 64. Don't need TB anymore so...

However it will take weeks of time to get everything back in terms of software.

But I have had win7 pro running 24/7 on my other PC for years with barely a hiccup.

At this point I am officially pissed!

End of RANT [for now]
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:54 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
I just need to vent and say this:

History... we built a great new computer and were intending to use Thunderbolt on it via the ASUS TB card.

We first intalled win 7 and then learned we had to have 10 to use the TB...
After exhaustive attempts with advice from EVERYONE possible, we found the TB to be not really working for an audio device [foucusrite Scarlett] so we tossed the TB card and the scarlett and went to RME 802 Pro.

We still had win 10 pro 64 as the OS.

Spent a good month installed and setting up all the vaious softs, FX, lib's etc. and it was all working fine.

There was one instance where the OS got hosed because of a M$ auto update that got interrupted because of a power failure that happend while it was going on. That left the system useless but I did have an image back up of a week prior and restored from that.

All seemed OK until... the brand new Dell 43 inch monitor suddently went dead.
OK... deal with Dell and got a replacement delivered a day ago. So now that works.
Expected to just boot up... ahhhh but no.
Instead the nortorius Welcome screen hangs [been there before so we wait it out] ...Eventually that screen puts up an error notice never seen before.

Group Policy Service error... Look it up on the net and find all the solutions [a major registry edit]...which of course you can't do if you can't actully boot up... [M$ ...how can you be sooooo bad]
...and reading the info on it the 'fix' [if you can get to it] merely makes the service run in it's own separate process. WHY THE HELL NOT DO THAT BY DEFAULT M$?

OK... well then let's restore from the latest system image again... that one was made about a month ago when everything was working perfectly.

We do that and still get the Group Policy error during the Welcome screen.
So very clearly whatever it saved and restored was not truly and exactly what was working at that time.

Try the recommened method to boot from the install disk and troubleshoot to 'repair start up'.... hahahaha Can't repair [M$ ...if I ever get my hands around your neck it will be a pleasure to strangle you]

Currently trying the restore from image one more time... but not much hope really...

So what I see now that I did not see until now:

Win 10 may be just lovely, until it eats itself and then you can be really screwed with no way out.

I am about one day away, some more attempts first, to go back to fresh install of Win7 Pro 64. Don't need TB anymore so...

However it will take weeks of time to get everything back in terms of software.

But I have had win7 pro running 24/7 on my other PC for years with barely a hiccup.

At this point I am officially pissed!

End of RANT [for now]
I tried winn 10 for about 3 hours last year, then saw I did not want none of this and reformatted my drive and back to win 7 pro 64
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Old 05-17-2017, 02:25 PM   #3
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Boy, some unlucky sods (and I mean it in the most endearing way ) with W10 here...

Just updated to Creators Update today, everything went without a hitch and continues to sail smoothly...
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Old 05-17-2017, 02:36 PM   #4
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Hopi, that really sucks ... it's one of the reasons I am staying with Windows 7 for the foreseeable future (another consideration is that my peripherals are several years old, and are no longer officially supported).

I upgraded my other DAW computer to Windows 10 and it was not a good experience - my midi controller (motorized fader) stopped working. And that thing is almost brand new.
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Old 05-17-2017, 02:59 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
I am about one day away, some more attempts first, to go back to fresh install of Win7 Pro 64. Don't need TB anymore so...

However it will take weeks of time to get everything back in terms of software.

But I have had win7 pro running 24/7 on my other PC for years with barely a hiccup.

At this point I am officially pissed!

End of RANT [for now]
Hey my friend, I didn't realize you were going through this BS, and it makes me sad.

I'm still using Win7 although I've got Win10 too, as a dual boot. I tried to get lined out with win10, but trying to get everything to work was just to time consuming, not to mention difficult, so I'm still using Win7.

I know I can't help, but I wish I could.

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Old 05-17-2017, 03:09 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Just updated to Creators Update today, everything went without a hitch and continues to sail smoothly...
Really? Even after MS themselves said to upgrade at your own risk?

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/04/mic...pdate-for-now/
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:10 PM   #7
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I'll shortly be walking out the door, but in a few hours I'll be able to provide a longer answer.

In the meantime try disconnecting from the internet and then restarting.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:15 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Magicbuss View Post
Really? Even after MS themselves said to upgrade at your own risk?

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/04/mic...pdate-for-now/
That's not what MS said.

This is what MS said.

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexp...py1XrLyHRJ3.97

In summary: "We know there are problems with some devices. We have scheduled our rollout to account for these devices. If you use the manual update, you will work around those blocks and we can't account for it."
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:14 PM   #9
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Thanks to you all... I really needed some shoulders to cry on...

some news maybe... today I again did a restore from the saved image and it has gone a little better... not home free yet by any means but at least I am on the desktop and able to copy off some some files...

I don't have the net cable plugged in yet... and the nvidia card says it needs an update so the screen is stupid enormous... and I don't even understand that... would have expected the back up image to truly put everything back exactly as it was... I think I can say there is something amiss with how win10 creates it's backups... on my win7 PC I use paragon back up and those images are for real...

anyway... at the moment my fingers are crossed but I'm left with a delimna
I've been burned by 10 now a couple of time and the wounds are still smoking
Yet if I go to 7 I'd have tons of time to install tons of stuff from scratch..

Might be time to flip a coin or two...
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Boy, some unlucky sods (and I mean it in the most endearing way ) with W10 here...

Just updated to Creators Update today, everything went without a hitch and continues to sail smoothly...
Insider Preview Build 16199.rs prerelease today on all (3) Desktop PC(s). All is well and has been since Initial Win 10 Intro. Some temp glitches, but usually resolved promptly and moving forward.

Sad, that more than one provider enjoy blaming MS/Win10 for their issues. Have major one, ongoing for months, with highly regarded global hardware/software provider. Close to $1k pissed away so far and little hope of solution soon.

Hang in there. You'll be far better prepared than many as Win 10 is here to stay.
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Old 05-17-2017, 07:24 PM   #11
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update...

damn... finally got a resemblance of the desktop as it was when the backup image was made... but even to get that far took 3 times of restoring the image... why the hell would that be I ask?

but then the restored C drive [from image] does not include the NVIDA drivers as they were when the image was made...

NVIDA say, try to reboot and see if that fixes it...

So... I do and we are now back at the error of the welcome page where the group policy service is not happy....

OK... look... I"m sure ED and a million others have 10 running happily
but it's my good fortune [HA!] to be seeing a fragile area of 10 that really should not exist. I say this because the fix for that group policy is a complex reg. tweak to make it run in its own separate process... then M$ could have, should have done that by default... IMHO.

Win 10 is 'here to stay'... of course
but it may not stay with me
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:11 PM   #12
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Congratulations on getting Windows 10 installed!
Seriously though, I'm seeing a lot of problems with it. I regret purchasing it, but did so only to help guarantee forward compatibility.
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:50 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
Group Policy Service error... Look it up on the net and find all the solutions [a major registry edit]...which of course you can't do if you can't actully boot up...
hopi, Some weeks ago I had a similar problem (although now that I've had a chance to look at your first post more closely, probably not the identical one).

After spending time googling etc. the solution that worked for me was to

1. start offline (this worked, hence my earlier post - did you try it?)
2. having now started offline, make a simple registry change
3. close down, reconnect the internet, reboot

This has been a permanent fix.
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:54 PM   #14
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Details follow. If not a help to hopi, hopefully this will help somebody.

I have Win 10 Pro normally connected via wired ethernet.

One morning I turned it on and could not get past the following message:-
Security policies on this computer are set to show information about the last interactive sign-in, but Windows couldn't retrieve that information. Contact your network administrator for help.
When starting offline, i.e. internet disconnected, there was no problem*. I was then able to change the following from 1 to 0 (a solution I found by googling).

HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Pol icies\System\DisplayLastLogonInfo

No problem since.


*After much testing I found that I could start Windows with no internet or internet via wi-fi, but not via wired ethernet. I'm sure that when starting on-line (i.e. an interactive sign-in), a number of things are checked. If the registry value was changed unexpectedly, it was probably looking for information that didn't exist, so it just gave up. So why could I start with wi-fi? My guess is that Windows gets further through its start procedure before wi-fi is turned on.


Nothing I found by googling indicated any known reason for the problem occurring in the first place.

None of my Win 10 Home computers had a problem - I think gpedit is normally disabled in Home.
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:59 PM   #15
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Have to say the whole thing seems like a crapshoot. ED and I and countless others have had zero issues with Win10 Pro or Home Premium.
That said I am a little wary of the Creators edition arriving.
Rumours that you are obliged to use Edge for internet browser dont help.
But as always who the hell knows what the truth really is?

The worst part in all this is that OS`s seem to be getting like politicians. Apple have hordes of screaming users bitching about problems/hardware anomalies as does MS.
Linux Audio is Not Ready For The Big Time as far as I am concerned.
ALL untrustworthy, it seems.

So who the hell do you vote for?

In the meantime, I am happy to say I have had no more OS issues with 10 than any other MS offering & my Mac Mini (on which I am a real newbie) is on some elderly version of OSX but works just fine.
I must have been really good in a previous incarnation.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:06 AM   #16
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Rumours that you are obliged to use Edge for internet browser dont help.
False. Using Waterfox and Iron here, with WF as default.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:10 AM   #17
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Latest Build yesterday 16199. Just added Opera after 'tech news' post complaining about some Chrome issues. PITA as nothing remembered, but seems fine otherwise.

No restrictions here on browsers .... Firefox, Chrome ...
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:26 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanofoz View Post
Details follow. If not a help to hopi, hopefully this will help somebody.

I have Win 10 Pro normally connected via wired ethernet.

One morning I turned it on and could not get past the following message:-
Security policies on this computer are set to show information about the last interactive sign-in, but Windows couldn't retrieve that information. Contact your network administrator for help.
When starting offline, i.e. internet disconnected, there was no problem*. I was then able to change the following from 1 to 0 (a solution I found by googling).

HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Pol icies\System\DisplayLastLogonInfo

No problem since.


*After much testing I found that I could start Windows with no internet or internet via wi-fi, but not via wired ethernet. I'm sure that when starting on-line (i.e. an interactive sign-in), a number of things are checked. If the registry value was changed unexpectedly, it was probably looking for information that didn't exist, so it just gave up. So why could I start with wi-fi? My guess is that Windows gets further through its start procedure before wi-fi is turned on.


Nothing I found by googling indicated any known reason for the problem occurring in the first place.

None of my Win 10 Home computers had a problem - I think gpedit is normally disabled in Home.
Thanks for trying to help... I was able to look into the reg. today but there is no such entry as the one you posted... wtf?
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:47 AM   #19
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My W10 Creators became unstable this last weekend. Kernel errors, IRQ issues stuff going wrong all over the place.
Each time it crashed there was a different error message so very hard to find root cause.

Hours of analysis later other than the MS updates the only other thing that had changed was the Nvidia drivers which had updated on their own.
Uninstalled the Nvidia drivers, blocked MS updates from updating them using the hide updates tool and touch wood everything has been solid since.

For me this is the last time I will use Nvidia drivers either via MS updates or direct.
Been burned before by them and it's not happening again.
Their QC is just not good enough IME.
YMMV.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:49 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
False. Using Waterfox and Iron here, with WF as default.

Thank goodness for that!
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:53 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by wallace View Post

For me this is the last time I will use Nvidia drivers either via MS updates or direct.
Been burned before by them and it's not happening again.
Their QC is just not good enough IME.
YMMV.

ABSO-bloody-LUTELY!

I too am one of those clobbeed by MS's misguided attempts to "update" my NVidia drivers. Which is why I no longer have an NVidia card & also make damn sure not to let 10 pro go near my video card software.

I would like to know why NVidia are still just sitting on their thumbs letting this happen.
It's not like it just started - I first had issues with this back on Win7 Pro.
Surely they get advance copies of anything MS is planning to do regarding NVidia hardware/software???
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:12 AM   #22
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Only nVIDIA issue since Win 10 Intro is current GeForce GT660 _ BUT only as I changed Hisense 55" HDTV to 2160p using side HDMI port. Video is great, but nVIDIA does not recognize for updates. Really not up to speed on this issue, but changing back to HDMI #2 bottom port (1080p resolution) works fine ???

Other (2) Dual 27"/24" Desktop PC setups GeForce 560Ti/760 have never presented Win10 Pro problems ... . Sorry others have issues.....
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:14 AM   #23
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If that was the pro rant I'm a little afraid of what the con rant might be!

OK, I'll stop complaining about the latest OSX release. All happiness and light apparently.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:20 PM   #24
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serr ...hahaha indeed OK then let's get to the con rant...

After going as far as anyone could with trying to restore 10 from the recent sys image it made... I have now started doing it all fresh with Win 7 Pro 64...
[that was the original intent for this new pc but we got waylaid about needing 10 to deal with Thunder Bolt stuff]

I can say something that might be a warning to some people:
That Win 10 sys image back up ...is bullshit... there are lots of things it did not include nor restore ... various drivers, etc., all of which are critically important...

Even Win 7 back up is better but I don't trust that anymore either... think I'll go with Paragon again for those needs...

OK so then... as I get into the Win 7 Pro install, after having lived with 10 for a couple months, I am even more impressed with how much more I like 7...

There are so many little system tweaks [like the look and feel for starters] that they stripped out of 10.

And I know other may not agree but 7 runs faster... boots faster, looks cleaner... is easier to get around in....

I know, I know.... support will die away... but it's gonna work well for our needs...

10 or 7 ??? hahaha IMO Less is WAY more
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:08 PM   #25
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Ha, back on track, glad to hear it hopi.

I'm so glad I did a dual boot with 7 and 10. I played around with 10 a little bit at first, but getting everything re-registered was such a pain, and I haven't been in ten for quite a while now.

I did buy an extra SSD drive just for 10, but that's no biggy, I can use it for a sample drive if I want.
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:18 PM   #26
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What worked for me -
1) Installed Win 10 pro 64 upgrade over win 7 pro 64 - to activate Win 10 Pro 64 on the MS Cloud
2) Clean installed Win 10 pro 64
3) Added pgms

PGP - was the only pgm Win 10 pro 64 didn't like. Soln: install after installing Win 10 pro 64 and run PGP compatible with Win 7.

Win 10 Pro 64 is A++++ for music / film production. Much better than Win 7 Pro 64.

- self built PC - i7 4690k CPU - 32bg ram - Asus Z97-A

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Old 05-19-2017, 05:32 PM   #27
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What I find seriously annoying about W10 is that it can change your default file associations just like that. Html, pdf, mp3, it can happen to anything. And yes, I know about 'StopResettingMyApps', but even that is not 100% M$-proof.. And, it doesn't fix problems with pdf and mp3 either..
Just my 2 cents..
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:44 PM   #28
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What I find seriously annoying about W10 is that it can change your default file associations just like that. Html, pdf, mp3, it can happen to anything. And yes, I know about 'StopResettingMyApps', but even that is not 100% M$-proof.. And, it doesn't fix problems with pdf and mp3 either..
Just my 2 cents..
It can't/doesn't, just like any earlier OS couldn't, either some app changed it during config or install or something else is going on, or wrong.
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:53 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by alanofoz View Post
Details follow....
^This sounds sound. If you have some of the cloud features enabled, it would have asked/required OK to apply certain security polices to the machine; likely soon after the initial install or upgrade. If something about that policy went wonky later, like flipping this bit which is domain/forest related, I could see this occurring.
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Old 05-20-2017, 03:45 PM   #30
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hopi, sorry for the delay replying - too many things got in the way.

Quote:
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Thanks for trying to help... I was able to look into the reg. today but there is no such entry as the one you posted... wtf?
That particular registry entry solved my problem but I expect that your problem might involve a different reg entry. The main reason for my post was that at first I was unable to log on and make the change required, as you found:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
Group Policy Service error... Look it up on the net and find all the solutions [a major registry edit]...which of course you can't do if you can't actually boot up...
My situation seemed very similar, disconnecting from the internet allowed me to get past that point, then in my case changing that reg entry completely fixed the problem.

Anyway, glad you're back in business, sorry Win 10 didn't work out for you.
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Old 05-20-2017, 03:55 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
^This sounds sound. If you have some of the cloud features enabled, it would have asked/required OK to apply certain security polices to the machine; likely soon after the initial install or upgrade. If something about that policy went wonky later, like flipping this bit which is domain/forest related, I could see this occurring.
This is pretty much what I thought. It's interesting that hopi doesn't have the registry value

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Originally Posted by hopi View Post
...there is no such entry as the one you posted...
I had wondered in my case whether the entry had originally existed on my system, but no way of knowing now though after the event. My other 4 systems don't have that entry, but they're all Win 10 Home, so no help there.
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:47 PM   #32
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Default 'bare metal' backups

What a nightmare. May I suggest that you use 'bare metal' backups in the future? Cloning the whole drive seems like the only reliable way to really restore everything; and the price of the hard drive is nothing compared to the time and grief spent fixing weirdo problems like these.

Now I think I'll sign-off and update my backup drive.
Best of luck to you.
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Old 05-20-2017, 09:04 PM   #33
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hi alanofoz... hey thanks for your help and thoughts....

I'm just much happier now to go again with 7....

There is quite an involved reg fix [not the one you posted] for the group policy problem... it is documented and google with get to it...

quite involed with taking ownership of the process via cmd stuff and editing the reg...

the major catch 22 is of course you gotta be able to boot into the system to even do that... hahahahaha OMG M$ what weren't you thinking?

Ya know, I just have to say this out loud:

After all these years of computer OS developement we still don't really have an OS that you can install over and existing bad one and have it keep all your installed programs and other settings...

Damn Apple had that back in the old days where you could just drop in a new 'system' and everything was still there ready to roll...

Yes I know we are in today... but it amazes me what the M$ go for and then also what they don't go for....
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:50 PM   #34
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I am pretty sdure that all thesde anomalies people have are down to the sheer breadth of hardware that MS have to take into account.
Understandable, but they are going to lose corporate customers eventually unless they resolve this stuff OR at least give a clearer explanation as to what their updates consist of BEFORE we get to install them.
From talking to folksd on the enterprise release, things are a little clearer but still no bed of roses.
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Old 05-21-2017, 01:36 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by wallace View Post
My W10 Creators became unstable this last weekend.
Been on this Creators update for a week now. My PC disconnects itself from the net after 15 mins on first boot, then hangs when shutting down to restart. Needs hard reset.
Likewise, sometimes it won't shut down at all and needs hard reset, reboot then shutdown.

I'm sure they'll iron out the bugs.

...
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Old 05-21-2017, 01:52 AM   #36
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Understandable, but they are going to lose corporate customers eventually unless they resolve this stuff
All the corporate customers are getting the resolved stuff, since they're on the slow branch (Current branch for Business, which is what you get when you defer feature updates in W10 Pro - up to a year of deferring, now - plenty of time to fix the bugs in the fastest branch - Home).

Of course, super-corporates are on Enterprise and they don't need to worry about a lot of stuff since they don't get Edge, Cortana and all the other cool (IMO) W10 stuff.


Been on Creators Update for a week. Did a wrong registry tweak and explorer.exe process started hanging. Did a system restore to the state directly after the update - everything works fine! Case in point: don't do unnecessary registry tweaks, just let the OS work as designed. And lo and behold - it works as designed! Stable, no crashes, and boots every time!
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Old 05-21-2017, 04:24 AM   #37
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I don't even trust any restore and backup tools provided by Windows. Macrium Reflect Free supports differential image update to keep the backup files small. I used Macrium's USB rescue boot disk to upgrade from Win7 to Win10 and reverted to Win7 several times without problems.

https://www.macrium.com/reflectfree
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Old 05-21-2017, 05:50 AM   #38
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W10 has definitely some random bells and whistles.
I am running into trouble with Korg devices USB..it just chooses not to reflect on one computer , however on my other machine it seems to be running okay !
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:28 AM   #39
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I heartily second Macrium, though I had dual boot W10 and (ahem) XP, and as long as W10 was default OS on another HDD, the restored Macrium XP image wouldn't boot (no internet). That makes my third and last attempt to try and get along with W10. Less actual functionality than XP SP3, let alone W7.

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Old 05-21-2017, 07:10 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
All the corporate customers are getting the resolved stuff, since they're on the slow branch (Current branch for Business, which is what you get when you defer feature updates in W10 Pro - up to a year of deferring, now - plenty of time to fix the bugs in the fastest branch - Home).

Of course, super-corporates are on Enterprise and they don't need to worry about a lot of stuff since they don't get Edge, Cortana and all the other cool (IMO) W10 stuff.


Been on Creators Update for a week. Did a wrong registry tweak and explorer.exe process started hanging. Did a system restore to the state directly after the update - everything works fine! Case in point: don't do unnecessary registry tweaks, just let the OS work as designed. And lo and behold - it works as designed! Stable, no crashes, and boots every time!
ED you have a lucky charm with 10... I know that and good for you so far..
But I say again... beware of it coming around someday and biting you on the butt... for no reason you can figure...
I'm not the only one who did no tweaks to it other than stuff like theme's choices and eventually [two times now] had it do the thing where the welcome screen takes an hour to clear it self... IF it does.

anyway... screw 10 back in 7, very loaded system and boot up is 30 seconds
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