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Old 11-16-2014, 02:46 PM   #41
Dannii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plush2 View Post
I just tried and 32 bit does indeed crash. I'm not even going to speculate as to why. Just confirming the buggy behaviour then.
The crash is a secondary issue. I get crashes when I push things past the RAM limits but just before that limit is when the ASIO i/o disappears.
Are you running Win7 or Win8?
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Old 11-16-2014, 03:09 PM   #42
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I just tried this same test using my older laptop running Win7 32 bit, REAPER 4.75 32 bit and ASIO4ALL with Realtek HD audio and I can't get the ASIO i/o to play up. I just get the crash. The crash happens WAY earlier though (13 tracks vs 28 tracks for the Win 8 system). Both have the same amount of RAM though.


A summary on my systems:
(Note - CPU load on both these systems is low with any of the projects that load successfully).

Win 8 64 bit, REAPER 4.75 32 bit, i5 3317 CPU, 4GB RAM:
  • 23 tracks loaded by clicking REAPER project without REAPER previously open - ASIO4ALL or RME ASIO - Project plays, no i/o errors
  • 24 - 27 tracks loaded by clicking REAPER project without REAPER previously open - ASIO4ALL or RME ASIO - i/o disappears
  • 28 - 32 tracks loaded by clicking REAPER project without REAPER previously open - ASIO4ALL or RME ASIO - REAPER crashes

Win 7 32 bit, REAPER 4.75 32 bit, Core 2 Duo T9300 CPU, 4GB RAM:
  • 12 tracks loaded by clicking REAPER project without REAPER previously open - ASIO4ALL - Project plays, no i/o errors
  • 13 tracks loaded by clicking REAPER project without REAPER previously open - ASIO4ALL - REAPER crashes
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Old 11-16-2014, 03:27 PM   #43
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@ReaDave: Many thanks for extensive testing! I would expect too that Win7 won't show the issue. Never saw it happening here.

@plush2: Yeah been trying a clean install of Reaper as well. My machines have been both i7's with 8gb of ram and Win8.

The test project I posted consumes here about 1.6gb of ram, so it's not even close to the limit. But I agree crashing is probably a separate issue.

@Darkstar: Unfortunately I don't have any other daw, so I can't really test that.
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Old 11-16-2014, 03:39 PM   #44
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Can x86 REAPER actually use any more RAM than that, even on an x64 system?
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The crash is a secondary issue. I get crashes when I push things past the RAM limits but just before that limit is when the ASIO i/o disappears.
Yes 2gb is the barrier but at 1.5 GB point 2GB becomes a virtual barrier due to memory fragmentation. IOW, after about 1.5-1.8 all bets are off. This is of course true for any 32bit app.

For 64bit it's going to occur when getting closer to whatever limit based on the amount of memory installed. Either, way let me offer that it matters not if reaper could handle this better, hope they do but it does not fix the underlying issue if it is using to close the memory available. It is pretty much impossible not to have memory fragmentation when memory is dynamically created and destroyed. So again IF this is due to nearing memory limits, that really is what needs to be fixed or, you'll just get less crashes and anomalies and errors that stop you instead.
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Old 11-16-2014, 03:40 PM   #45
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Just loaded this up. Zero problems at 64buffer Asio.
i7 with 16gb ram reaper 64bit win 8.1 pro

Forgot to check cpu load - I will be back with more extended thoughts.

This is an interesting one.

But once again I sit here smug as buggery with a decent setup which has been slowly and carefully upgraded over the last six or seven years with NO issues like this or any of the many others people report.
Ditto on my i5 laptop with the RME Babyface.

I had so many problems after I upgraded from a dual core lappy to the i5....... Nothing but crashes and disasters with focusrite saffire 6, Scarlett 2i2 and 2i4, Line 6UX1, Tascam144, Alesis USB, etc., usb interfaces and finally broke down & spent the money. NO issues since then.

Sorry. I know how galling it must be to read this. I WAS you on the laptop until I bit the bullet.
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Old 11-16-2014, 03:42 PM   #46
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What I find interesting with my tests is the massive difference between the Win 7 rig and the Win 8 rig despite the low CPU use on BOTH machines. This suggests to me one of two possibilities:

Win 8 handles RAM much better than Win 7,
or
64 bit OS handles RAM much better than 32 bit OS even with only 4GB available.

I'm leaning towards the latter.

Either way, my Win 8 rig gives me much more to play with before ANY issues arise. I get double the track count before I even see the ASIO i/o problem. Nonetheless, there IS an audio i/o problem when REAPER is loaded RAM wise under Win 8.

It would be interesting to be able to compare the two operating systems on the same machine with a dual boot configuration. That would rule out different hardware configurations. Unfortunately, I cannot do that test because my only copy of Win 8 came pre-installed on my Sony Vaio and I don't want to mess with it by trying to get it to dual boot with Win 7 (besides, I don't have enough disk space left to try that).
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Old 11-16-2014, 03:44 PM   #47
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Quote:
64 bit OS handles RAM much better than 32 bit OS even with only 4GB available.
If you guys truly are getting close to the limit, the best thing to do is always expect that last 20% of it to be questionable at the process level. See my memory management thread from a few years back for deep analysis as to why. It's the latter btw way because 32bit only allows 2GB virtual address space per process so regardless of what is installed once Reaper is using > 1.5 GB @32bit, you are getting into territory where that remaining 500MB may not have a contiguous block of memory big enough to service whatever is being requested, the moment that happens, you're done. It's almost exactly like disk fragmentation except you can't really defragment it easily while in use and most memory allocations can't be broken up into smaller pieces.
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Old 11-16-2014, 03:50 PM   #48
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Hi Anomaly,
I had the same shit like you a few months ago on Wion 7 pro 64 bit.
Your thought, that the internal memory of Reaper could be a reason,
might be right. But also some bad plugins and windows itself might be reasons too.

I did the following:
I deleted all *.ini related to plugins like recentfx.ini, vstplugins.ini and the vst path. Then I updated my portable Reaper-Version.
Then I started reaper without the vst path and closed Reaper.
Then I started Reaper again and inserted the Vst path again.
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Old 11-16-2014, 04:13 PM   #49
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Further update:

I just downloaded REAPER 4.75 64 bit and did a stock portable install and I can load the project with all 32 tracks without any ASIO errors or crashing. The project plays fine despite maxing out my system RAM.

So, I then figured I'd do another stock portable install of REAPER 4.75 32 bit just in case the issue was something with my REPAER configuration. Alas, I got exactly the same errors as I posted in my earlier summary.

I am now even more convinced that this is a 32 bit REAPER RAM limit issue.
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Old 11-16-2014, 04:15 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
If you guys truly are getting close to the limit, the best thing to do is always expect that last 20% of it to be questionable at the process level. See my memory management thread from a few years back for deep analysis as to why. It's the latter btw way because 32bit only allows 2GB virtual address space per process so regardless of what is installed once Reaper is using > 1.5 GB @32bit, you are getting into territory where that remaining 500MB may not have a contiguous block of memory big enough to service whatever is being requested, the moment that happens, you're done. It's almost exactly like disk fragmentation except you can't really defragment it easily while in use and most memory allocations can't be broken up into smaller pieces.
Sounds feasible to me, particularly given the 32 bit vs 64 bit REAPER test I just did.

Interesting that I have never come across this issue previously though. I have regularly mixed projects in 32 bit REAPER on this rig (my Sony Win 8 one) that have plenty of tracks and some fairly RAM hungry plugins (Kontakt for example) and never had problems.
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Old 11-16-2014, 05:18 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
Sounds feasible to me, particularly given the 32 bit vs 64 bit REAPER test I just did.

Interesting that I have never come across this issue previously though. I have regularly mixed projects in 32 bit REAPER on this rig (my Sony Win 8 one) that have plenty of tracks and some fairly RAM hungry plugins (Kontakt for example) and never had problems.
Glad its better. There is no pattern typically since it all depends on who asks for what allocations in what order and size and their subsequent deletion which causes the gaps/fragments. Based on that you can see how easy it is for behavior to vary widely even between users of identical systems because their patterns differ, even clicking things in different orders could affect that fragmentation footprint.

It may not be an app that needs lots of ram but rather one that uses and reallocates lots of smaller ones leaving kontakt stuck with nowhere to go if it needs a large block. The total sum it needs may be there but not contiguous hence the problem
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Old 11-17-2014, 05:42 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Just loaded this up. Zero problems at 64buffer Asio.
i7 with 16gb ram reaper 64bit win 8.1 pro
...
Could you please test with 32-bit Reaper?
64-bit Reaper doesn't have the ASIO issue.
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Old 11-17-2014, 05:58 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Glad its better. There is no pattern typically since it all depends on who asks for what allocations in what order and size and their subsequent deletion which causes the gaps/fragments. Based on that you can see how easy it is for behavior to vary widely even between users of identical systems because their patterns differ, even clicking things in different orders could affect that fragmentation footprint.

It may not be an app that needs lots of ram but rather one that uses and reallocates lots of smaller ones leaving kontakt stuck with nowhere to go if it needs a large block. The total sum it needs may be there but not contiguous hence the problem
This is a very good theory. But I still don't understand why does ASIO I/O disappear? I understand that it could crash or do some other things that require you to restart Reaper. But this is not particularly such problem. When ASIO I/O disappears you can get it back by removing some tracks from your project. No need to close your project or restart reaper. Weird?

Isn't memory locations protected? Plugins and stuff should not write into protected areas? If such thing is happening here, then how it can so cleanly decide hmmm... I won't crash or cause any other weirdness but let's see... YES! let's take your ASIO I/O away... there you go! See you soon, happy reapering.
There seems to be some kind of intelligence behind this.
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:08 AM   #54
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A note to anybody who is interested in trying the test project I posted.
Please try it many times. There are some occasions when the issue does not show up when loading it. Also you can try to duplicate the tracks and reload the project.
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Old 11-17-2014, 08:03 AM   #55
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Considering the 64 bit version of REAPER doesn't suffer this ASIO problem and seems to be better under high RAM usage, I decided to download and install 64 bit versions of the plugins I use that have 64 bit versions (nearly all of them) and give 64 bit REAPER another shot.

My first findings seemed to be very positive. I have had none of the stability issues I had with 64 bit a couple of years ago and everything seems to be working well.

However, and it is a BIG however, 64 bit REAPER uses around 20 - 25 percent MORE CPU than the 32 bit version even when running all native 64 bit plugins! I was NOT expecting that!

I've tried changing some of the preferences but to no avail. It seems that at least on my rig, 32 bit REAPER, although not as good memory wise, is FAR more efficient CPU wise.

I'll make a new topic about this Anomaly so as not to hijack your topic but I posted those findings here because they may also be of concern to you.

At the end of the day, it would be good to find out why REAPER 32 has this ASIO issue (I know, stating the obvious here given that is what this topic is all about!)


Edit for update - On further investigation, this issue seems to be plugin specific. I just tried creating a test project with u-he Diva, BlueARP and a couple of JS plugins (32 bit project with 32 bit plugs and 64 bit project with 64 bit plugs and the same patches) and the CPU use seems to be almost identical.

The other, much larger, project where I was seeing the large discrepancies in CPU use makes extensive use of Ozone 5 Advanced. Perhaps this is an iZotope issue. I might look into trying varying 'run as' methods for Ozone and see if that helps.
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Old 11-17-2014, 08:23 AM   #56
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But I still don't understand why does ASIO I/O disappear?
If what I mentioned is the problem, the symptoms can be very unexpected and weird. For example, opening up the audio driver dialog is going to cause allocations even to display the list for the ASIO IO. When in such a state, it likely cannot even present that list. Or previous failed allocations cause a state where it can't create the list due to the fact that everything is now all mucked up.

I've seen this many times in my own 32 bit apps and when I started running out of memory, multiple GUI elements would simply disappear, go blank and/or other unusual behavior. I found the thread I posted a few years ago that talks about memory fragmentation when near the memory ceiling but it's a little deep depending. I thought I'd post it here just in case it helps discover if relevant or not....

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=26
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Old 11-17-2014, 11:14 AM   #57
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Isn't memory locations protected? Plugins and stuff should not write into protected areas? If such thing is happening here, then how it can so cleanly decide hmmm... I won't crash or cause any other weirdness but let's see... YES! let's take your ASIO I/O away... there you go! See you soon, happy reapering.
There seems to be some kind of intelligence behind this.
My naive guess would be that there is a bug in reaper's 32bit memory management that is relatively random, which reveals itself more often when memory is low, and which when triggered overwrites some other area of the program's working memory. Depending on which part of the memory that gets overwritten, different results could occur: losing the ASIO driver, crashing the program, etc. Trying to run a test program with very many instances of a VST may cause the overreach to be greater, which may in turn lead to an outright crash, as opposed to running with a medium number of instances and simply going out of bounds a little bit, which might just corrupt some neighboring data structure, e.g. some ASIO related area, the code for which may reset itself out of confusion, etc etc. Software is complicated. :-) When you start throwing random monkey wrenches in the works, there is no telling what will happen. Most often things just grind to a halt, but not always.
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Old 11-17-2014, 11:26 AM   #58
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Isn't memory locations protected? Plugins and stuff should not write into protected areas?
These aren't protected memory locations per se, they are memory blocks used for whatever in the process address space needs them for. So a memory address could get overwritten then 5 minutes later get accessed and their be a crash. However, I don't really suspect that unless it can be reproduced with small and large memory footprint. If it occurs in all cases above 1.5GB or near the limit then my money is always on lack of memory which the ceiling can get unnecessarily reduced due fragmentation. IOW it would be quite rare for such an application to always run out of memory at the exact 2.0GB mark. I might even deem it extremely rare unless for example there were exactly zero bytes left before the next allocation occurred.

If it were pointers getting overwritten it can be shimmed (gflags.exe) so that anytime something overwrites its boundary the program immediately crashes but that only helps in dev diagnosis (due to the scenario above where we wanted to know what happened 5 minutes earlier, not later).

There are also two types of memory management here, the management of the general process memory that is for the process to use which AFAICT reaper does a great job of (allocations and frees), then true virtual memory management which is all done by the OS (where those allocations and frees go). The latter is the one I'm discussing. Though both go together, the former is ultimately managed by the latter (usually).

I'd really like to see it reproduced with 200MB in use, if so, it isn't what I described.
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Old 11-17-2014, 11:41 AM   #59
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Karbo, wouldn't the memory fragmentation thing only be an issue if the block sizes of the data being written was larger than the block sizes of fragmented area of free RAM? Even then though, aren't the block sizes a fixed value or are they dynamic?
It has been a long time since I dabbled with assembly language or machine code and my memory of such things is..... ahem... fragmented!

Other than that, surely fragmentation would not be the same issue it is with HDDs because of the near instant address access of RAM vs linear addressing (and the limits of seek time for the r/w heads) on a HDD.
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:00 PM   #60
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Karbo, wouldn't the memory fragmentation thing only be an issue if the block sizes of the data being written was larger than the block sizes of fragmented area of free RAM?
Of contiguous blocks yes but that isn't hard to hit with only a few hundred MB of total free virtual memory left. A single byte sitting in the middle of a large 250MB block now automatically splits that into two ~125 MB blocks. A few more of those and you have 250 MB free but only a few MB available for any allocation that needs a contiguous block.


Quote:
Even then though, aren't the block sizes a fixed value or are they dynamic?
It has been a long time since I dabbled with assembly language or machine code and my memory of such things is..... ahem... fragmented!
I hope I don't cast too much focus on fragmentation but I did so only with the assumption we are down to those last few hundred MB. If you think about it like we would disk fragmentation where it occurs due to writes and deletes, you can't help but end up with fragmentation which is a price paid for it's being dynamic. Especially with small allocations that get stuff written after them, then those small ones get deleted. You are left with those tiny slots which can account for lots of free total but very few larger blocks.

To drive that point further when you decide on block sizes on a disk, you cannot write to half a block later, 1 byte uses the entire 64k block (had you used 64k blocks sizes). This is why it is important (from an advanced server level) to understand what type of data said disk will be using since 256k blocks would be ridiculous for lots of 1k files but probably great for 10GB video files.


Quote:
Other than that, surely fragmentation would not be the same issue it is with HDDs because of the near instant address access of RAM vs linear addressing (and the limits of seek time for the r/w heads) on a HDD.
In many ways they are exactly the same because it isn't how long it takes to get there we are speaking of, we are speaking of the size of the contiguous free blocks. 1024 single byte allocations peppered all over the place = 1 MB but there could never be a 1MB allocation of those because they are non-contiguous. Consider an array which is nothing more than a contiguous linear block of memory divided by the size of the data type. For example...

int [100] foo;

The above would require 400 bytes of contiguous memory AKA 100 * 4 bytes assuming a 4 byte integer. That can't be chopped up, has to be contiguous. This is the reason you can't resize an array (typically and at the processor level) without first destroying it and creating a new one. This restriction is exactly why things like linked lists exist.

Maybe better stated that for disk, the bottleneck is the loss of performance due to the head jumping all over the place to read/write those 1024 peppered bytes but for memory it's the fact that some allocations MUST be a single contiguous block and cannot be split up across boundaries making it completely inaccessible for that allocation.
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:01 PM   #61
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bootsie is a legend. but after becoming a prize winning plugin developer, would it hurt to make plugins the real way like everyone else does?
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:08 PM   #62
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....but for memory it's the fact that some allocations MUST be a single contiguous block and cannot be split up across boundaries making it completely inaccessible for that allocation.
I didn't word things too well but that is pretty much what I was trying to get at in the first sentence of my last reply.
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:18 PM   #63
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I didn't word things too well but that is pretty much what I was trying to get at in the first sentence of my last reply.
Oops sorry! I figured I'd also go ahead and explain as much as I could before I forget again LOL Sorry for the derail guys.
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:26 PM   #64
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Oops sorry! I figured I'd also go ahead and explain as much as I could before I forget again LOL Sorry for the derail guys.
No need to apologize. You worded things far more eloquently than I did!!
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:08 PM   #65
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Yeah, that is the strangest part. This is happening with 2 completely different machines. The only thing that remains the same is Reaper (any version), and RME (any driver version) and Windows 8 (or 8.1). Yet I'm the only person on this planet to experience it.
But it can't be that simple. You're only using Reaper, and no third party plugins?
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Old 11-17-2014, 10:10 PM   #66
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Awesome posts from karbo in this thread, really glad I caught the link to his earlier write-up.

This is what I love about this community, there is still actual "stuff" to learn from fellow-users after all these years, not just wanky recycled debates.
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:17 AM   #67
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You don't LIKE the wanky recycled debates????


I may have to adapt my sig to include this phrase.....
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Old 11-18-2014, 05:44 AM   #68
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But it can't be that simple. You're only using Reaper, and no third party plugins?
Yes, of course, the same plugins too.
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Old 11-18-2014, 10:14 AM   #69
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Anomaly,

After figuring out which plugins were using more CPU in 64 bit than 32 bit, I've been using 64 bit REAPER for the last couple of days extensively and haven't had a single crash. Even one of the projects that was causing REAPER 32 bit to crash on exit works fine.

Given that we're both using RME hardware (admittedly different), I'd be happy to share my REAPER configuration with you if you want to do a portable install and see if that works. Perhaps there is something in your configuration that is causing the 64 bit crashes on your system.
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Old 11-18-2014, 11:45 AM   #70
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Anomaly,

After figuring out which plugins were using more CPU in 64 bit than 32 bit, I've been using 64 bit REAPER for the last couple of days extensively and haven't had a single crash. Even one of the projects that was causing REAPER 32 bit to crash on exit works fine.

Given that we're both using RME hardware (admittedly different), I'd be happy to share my REAPER configuration with you if you want to do a portable install and see if that works. Perhaps there is something in your configuration that is causing the 64 bit crashes on your system.
Certainly, I could try it. Perhaps you could put it into the stash?

I have a hunch though. I believe the freeze happens more likely when reaper32.exe process is larger than certain amount of memory. That's the process where firewalled 32-bit plugins run. Of course this theory needs more testing.
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Old 11-18-2014, 11:52 AM   #71
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Certainly, I could try it. Perhaps you could put it into the stash?

I have a hunch though. I believe the freeze happens more likely when reaper32.exe process is larger than certain amount of memory. That's the process where firewalled 32-bit plugins run. Of course this theory needs more testing.
Here you go. Just the ini files saved to a REAPER config file. (Use 'Preferences' -> 'General' -> 'Import Configuration')
https://stash.reaper.fm/v/22331/ReaDa...eaperConfigZip
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:38 AM   #72
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How did you go with that Anomaly?
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Old 01-17-2015, 01:07 AM   #73
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How did you go with that Anomaly?
Greetings,

I'm sorry I missed your post. I tried the config file you posted, but the results were unchanged - the problem didn't go away.

But I have some updates too. I installed VB-Audio's Voice meter, which seems to have similar features as ASIO-for-all. http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr...ter/banana.htm. I use it to "firewall" my RME ASIO driver and now the issue has not surfaced (so far). If I were shortsighted, I would call RME driver "faulty". But as you demonstrated, it happened also with other hardware. So that conclusion would be incorrect.
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Old 01-17-2015, 02:37 AM   #74
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I had this kind of a problem in Win7 x64. It was caused by antivirus software, changing it to different vendor solved my problem. It's a longshot, but worth trying ;-)
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Old 01-18-2015, 12:58 AM   #75
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I had this kind of a problem in Win7 x64. It was caused by antivirus software, changing it to different vendor solved my problem. It's a longshot, but worth trying ;-)
I don't have any antivirus software in my daw. But thank you for the suggestion. I believe this issue is strictly related to Windows 8. Perhaps in your case the antivir was blocking your asio driver as a suspicious file?
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Old 01-18-2015, 02:14 AM   #76
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Greetings,



As I stated in my first post, only Reaper thinks there is a problem with the driver. I can access the ASIO without problem in any other ASIO capable program at the same time when Reaper sits clueless where did the I/O go? But of course it still could be very much possible that the cause is in the driver. The nasty thing is, there is no certainty of it because the very peculiar nature of this problem. In my opinion, Reaper is definitely behaving strangely, too. I have updated every possible driver from rme, of course.

I had a similar issue with W7 and Reaper - unable to open asio device.

But that was because I had Windows sound use the same.

First level workaround was removing Windows sound.

To have media player work to play final mixes - I did something, but don't remember what exactly. If I chose DirectX or similar.

So problem seems related to exclusiveness of device.

As you discovered, I could open Sonar without issues. Just Reaper open in a special way.
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Old 01-18-2015, 02:30 AM   #77
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I don't know if this is the problem, but I was reading here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/libr...=vs.85%29.aspx

And it looks like 32bit processes on windows x64 can only address 2 gigs of memory by default. Windows often behaves in a strange manor when you get close to RAM limits in my experience.
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Old 01-18-2015, 02:42 AM   #78
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I'm still on Win7 but I use 32bit REAPER on 64bit OS and the way I beat this RAM limit problem is this: I use some of my RAM hog plugins as dedicated processes so that way I can have that theoretical 4GB on EACH of the instances. I actually have 8GB ram on my system BTW. This way there is not one single process that gets even close to RAM limit and everything has run smoothly. I have RME HDSP 9632 soundcard.

I'll say though, that lately I haven't used sample libraries etc. as much so my memory usage has been down, so to speak. Anyway, this is something that you can try to cope with this 32bit memory barrier.
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Old 01-18-2015, 07:47 AM   #79
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Just revisited this thread and saw I had forgotten to reply that I had tried the project in 32bit reaper/64bit win 8.1 and it seemed to run fine.
Lit it up several times with no glitches. Odd....
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Old 01-18-2015, 01:43 PM   #80
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Busses,Busses,Busses. Try putting all drums through a drum bus with one reverb on the bus channel. Take off the reverbs on each drum track.
+1 times 1000.....
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