Old 03-22-2014, 06:10 PM   #1
jazzmandan
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Default Would sure appreciate a little help

1 month ago I finally agreed with everyone I knew and invested in hearing aids for both ears. On test I was told I was missing all much of the high frequency range, besides that I just simply could not hear quite conversation.

So here is my problem. I spend about as much time as any serious musician hobbyist recording, mixing and mastering my own my music. When I am in the studio I don't wear the hearing aids - the sound is too strange to me. Over the past couple days I have finalized a tune I have been working on. Like you all, I listen to it pain stakingly for hours trying to get it right in the mix. But are my ears fooling me? If I can't hear high frequencies how can I expect to mix them? Am I fooling myself?

Here is the help I need. Please listen to this final mix. I don't need a critique of the performance. I know what I can and can't do musically. But please listen to the mix. Does it sound like it was done by someone who can't hear high frequencies?

Hope this isn't a stupid request. I just need some independent review to help me with a serious issue.

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Old 03-22-2014, 06:24 PM   #2
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Maybe it does.....a little bit. The hi-hat seems to be out front a bit more than it should be. Might be a direct result of you having difficulty hearing it. Other than that, I don't think the high frequencies are being over-compensated in any way. Does it sound muffled and lacking high end to your ears? If it does, you seem to have a decent handle on what to do to make it translate for those without hearing loss. With the exception of the hats being a bit too loud, it sounded fine to me.
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Old 03-22-2014, 07:02 PM   #3
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I think it sounds pretty good, and I listened on 2 decent systems. I empathize for ya, and I wish that we all had perfect hearing right until we leave this earth, but very few of us get that lucky. Aside from a miracle, the best thing I think you can do now is to retrain your "new" ears by listening to music that you already know is mixed and mastered in ways that you consider good, and listen in your studio without your hearing aids. Try to mimic those mixes in your own work, and regardless if it sounds "right" to you, you will know that they translate if they are similar to your reference material. It's very much like learning a new set of monitors and/or headphones. Good luck, and nice work!
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Old 03-22-2014, 08:08 PM   #4
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HF loss due to age is a bitch ain't it...? you are not alone.

I agree with what has been said, perhaps the symbol crashes are a shade much on the hi end...

at the same time what 'bothers' me more is the 'booming' of what I think is the the bass but sometimes I'd guess is it the bass as it combines with other sounds [piano and drums?]... just my opinion... and 'what bothers me' may not bother anyone else.

tell ya a story though... I had a friend who was mostly a percussionist, and who also did his own home recordings... two live mics and a tape deck. Computers and DAW's did exist but he was too old to get a handle on them.

So one time he sends me a cd of his latest stuff... and I call and tell him to come up and let's see if I can remove some of the noise and make it better. There really was a lot of hiss noise throughout.
OK so he comes up and I work on the tracks and make 'em way better and then A\B them for him and he looks at me and says, "I don't hear anything diff"... so I turn up the vol. Still... same story. WTF I think, ...this is like night and day... wtf???

Then he turns to me and says, "you know I do have some hearing loss, ...but they sound the same to me"... ummm well the diff was not a subtle thing, lemme tell ya.

So he gets pissed at me! Ends up telling me his wife things they sound OK as they are... [hahaha... she is the same age]...
Oh well.... good to have less friends sometimes.
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Old 03-23-2014, 05:21 AM   #5
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You guys are great, thanks for the listen.

Your comments have given me insight into this mix and the overall process going forward.

I hear the "boomy sound". Mostly at the very beginning when the bass and piano are both playing the intro. I will try to tame that part by panning them apart. The piano is midi so I may be able to remove some of the left hand bass notes which muddy the mix at that point.

I don't hear the volume on the symbols! But I now realize I had "cranked it up" in JamSticks in order to "hear" a crash at the very end of the song (last note). I suspect this volume is now turned up through the whole song. I will look into this closer. I am sure playing with the volume of these drum parts is going to be a problem for me.

Cheers
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:34 AM   #6
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I once new an ear specialist/surgeon that let me in on a little secret.
All you have to know is what sounds good to you. You don't have to have perfect hearing. Just memorize what sounds good and replicate those sounds and balances...
Obviously for severe hearing loss the above doesn't work.
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:39 AM   #7
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Hey Jazzmandan,
I actually had HF hearing loss early in life and wore a pair of in ear aids for quite a while. It was caused by tire noise from driving a truck. For some reason after wearing the aids for a few years my hearing actually improved tremendously while not wearing them. Just a thought and probably not medically documented, but 15 years later I still will use soft foam earplugs that most types of contractors give to their employees, pink and yellow roll up type during any free time when I'm just sitting around and don't have to hear much. I use them of course whenever there's an abundance of noise as well, but the moral of the story is that by giving my ears a serious rest when they are not needed as much will boost my HF deficiency by about 15 db. A few hours prior to a mixing session, or even during the composing and repetitive stages of testing try them out, crank up the noise enough to get the idea over the plugs, then turn things down, remove the plugs and mix after your ears have been protected and isolated. You'll be amazed at how much more you will hear.
This works very well for me, not only messing with music, but in conversation, and every other part of day to day hearing.
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Old 03-23-2014, 07:13 AM   #8
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I once had a weird experience in a BBC studio. The engineer played some test tones and said "But this one you wont even hear cos its too high". In fact of the four people in the room only me could hear it (soft but distinct enough for me to do it "blindfold"). It was slightly surreal that the others could not hear a thing- as if I was hallucinating...
Alas that was 20 years ago and I am probably now in the same boat as others in this thread.
One other thought - can hearing deficiencies be compensated by using visual spectral analysers? A good tutorial on this topic may help many.
One other other thought- do we know the average age of Reaper users? I guess not but the statistic would be interesting?

Loved hopi's story BTW.

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Old 03-23-2014, 08:21 AM   #9
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Thanks for the input guys. The mix has changed in the linked file. Also, now sharing the project with a fellow forum member to see what better may be done here.

I don't care what everyone else says about you all, you're OK in my book.
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Old 03-23-2014, 08:26 AM   #10
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just a thought on the 'boomy' low end stuff

besides checking the volume of the bass and piano, you might like to try an EQ on each of those... Some EQ that includes a freq. meter reading that can show both the input and also the changes you that you set would be helpful.

Then see where the bass freq's and the piano freq's are piling up and tweak them so the give each other some room.

Without going back to listen again, I seem to recall thinking it had something to do with reverb on the bass... but I have memory loss too... LoL
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:28 AM   #11
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Bass guitar is too woofy/98-110hz, 250-310hz on the drums too much, everything generally sounds too forward around 500-1k.

If anything some 10k could go on the drums and maybe some 8k on the vocals.


Uhm... watch out for timing on hats/snare, some sketchy-flammed hits.
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:02 AM   #12
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From the OP.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzmandan View Post
I don't need a critique of the performance. I know what I can and can't do musically.
Ahem...... (might or might not be true, but see above)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
Uhm... watch out for timing on hats/snare, some sketchy-flammed hits.
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:36 AM   #13
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I too have major hearing loss and started in with just ONE hearing aid in my left ear last year.
Got fed up with the fake sounds I got from it, so I tried taking the plastic earmould bit off and just dangling the tube in my ear.
MUCH more natural sounding, although you are still stuffed when it comes to using headphones....

When I go back for a checkup I am going to go with the second device IF they can make something that will work OK without the moulded bits.
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Old 03-23-2014, 01:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
Bass guitar is too woofy/98-110hz, 250-310hz on the drums too much, everything generally sounds too forward around 500-1k.

If anything some 10k could go on the drums and maybe some 8k on the vocals.


Uhm... watch out for timing on hats/snare, some sketchy-flammed hits.
OK, that is a little Greek (or geek) to me, but I think you are suggesting an EQ cut for the bass and drums in those two frequency ranges. Got ya. But what does "..sounds too forward around 500-1k mean. Do you suggest all tracks should be reduced in that range or boosted? And are you suggesting a boost of drums and vocals at the listed frequencies.

And don't worry about offending the drummer, he is a machine and can take it.

Thanks for the listen and feedback. All input is appreciated.
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
I too have major hearing loss and started in with just ONE hearing aid in my left ear last year.
Got fed up with the fake sounds I got from it, so I tried taking the plastic earmould bit off and just dangling the tube in my ear.
MUCH more natural sounding, although you are still stuffed when it comes to using headphones....

When I go back for a checkup I am going to go with the second device IF they can make something that will work OK without the moulded bits.
I kinda' have to laugh a little wondering if we are all losing our hearing. I received my first pair of hearing aids 2 days ago. Without them I hear nothing above 10KHz, am down 41 db at 8 KHz, down 30 db at 5 KHz, down 10 db at 3 KHz, and normal from 2KHz on down.

Nothing will bring back the loss higher than the 10 KHz mark, but everything else is now flat from 20 to 10 KHz. OMG what a difference. I can actually hear the snare on the bottom of the drum, the schhuup of a hat, and a Martin guitar sounds fabulous - so do violins!

Two points...
1. I've always mixed to get a sound like that of a known artist's CD. I listed to my own stuff with these new hearing aids. The mixes sound fine.

2. What ivansc said about moulded earpieces was interesting. The audiologist ordered my new hearing aids without the earpieces to allow the natural sounds I can already hear come through into my ear canal.

They work really well. I was in a restaurant at lunch today, and two servers were having a normal-voice conversation a good 30 feet away from me, and I could understand every word! A lady three tables away was talking with her mother seated across from her. I could hear every word they said.

Great for being nosey and eavesdropping on other's conversations.
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Old 03-28-2014, 09:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzmandan View Post
1 month ago I finally agreed with everyone I knew and invested in hearing aids for both ears. On test I was told I was missing all much of the high frequency range, besides that I just simply could not hear quite conversation.

So here is my problem. I spend about as much time as any serious musician hobbyist recording, mixing and mastering my own my music. When I am in the studio I don't wear the hearing aids - the sound is too strange to me. Over the past couple days I have finalized a tune I have been working on. Like you all, I listen to it pain stakingly for hours trying to get it right in the mix. But are my ears fooling me? If I can't hear high frequencies how can I expect to mix them? Am I fooling myself?

Here is the help I need. Please listen to this final mix. I don't need a critique of the performance. I know what I can and can't do musically. But please listen to the mix. Does it sound like it was done by someone who can't hear high frequencies?

Hope this isn't a stupid request. I just need some independent review to help me with a serious issue.

Can't Live Together - Joe Jackson Cover
How shall I say this... the good news is that the mix is way down on the list of priorities, here. It's really not bad at all, especially for an amateur mix, and you've got some enviable guitar sounds in there, and a nice instrument balance with the bass and piano, overall. The drums and cymbals are a little iffy, but aren't drums always iffy in home recordings? And it's actually quite a good song, although I could find some nits to pick with the arrangement.

I think a more serious problem might be that hearing damage could be affecting your vocal intonation. Is that you singing? Because it sounds to me like someone whose voice is workable, and who knows something about music, but who is singing with a really bad headphone mix, and can't find the right upper-mid pitch/harmonics to "glom" onto, if that makes sense. It sounds like the kind of problems that happen a lot in live shows, where the singer is wearing earplugs and only hearing the bass and the resonance in his own skull, and also like the kind of thing that happens when the singer's headphone mix is too bass-heavy and loud.

You know how when you hear deaf people talk, how they don't really get the consonants right, and their vowels are kind of monophonic, blurry, and "off"? Like, they have learned the mechanics of how to speak, but they can't really self-correct or evaluate? Well, your consonants are just fine, and so is the enunciation of your vowels, and unlike most "bad" singers, you are singing actual and deliberate notes, they are just... not quite right. They have the mushy and "off" quality of a deaf person speaking, something I always associate with a bad headphone/monitor mix, where the singer can't hear the upper harmonics clearly.

"Pitchy" is a term used in the music/production industry to refer to problematic singing that is not outright or categorically "wrong". It's one of those infuriating words that nobody seems to be able to define (maybe like "warm" or "Punchy"), but everyone who says it seems to know what it means, and to expect everyone else to, even though people sometimes seem to mean different things. To me, "pitchy" means something like (and I know this doesn't make any sense) "it's not that they are singing the wrong notes, it's that they are singing them wrong". Sometimes it means the voice is like an instrument that is slightly out-of-tune, but sometimes it means that they are singing the right note, but the harmonics of the voice are not blending the way they should be with the instrumental bed, or something. You can maybe think of it like a guitar with really old strings that just never seems to sound quite right, it sounds boingy or rubber-bandy or something...

In any case, as a sound-engineer, when I hear "pitchy" vocals (as distinct from "bad" vocals), my first reaction is to blame myself, and look to the headphone/monitor mix-- my instinct is to look for a way that I can better help the singer hear what the audience is hearing, and see if the singer will naturally self-correct. This is a tricky and delicate mix of art and science: the singer's voice is resonating inside his own skull, and as most of us know all too well, the mic often hears something vastly different than what we hear when speaking or singing.

Most often, the biggest problem is that the singer is hearing a "scooped" upper-midrange and bass-heavy version of the sound that is coming out of their mouth: the internal resonance in their head is more low-end or lower-mid than the open-air sound, and the singer hears and feels every tooth-click, lip-smack, breathiness, and other high-end stuff much more acutely than a person standing a foot away from them. Meanwhile, the listener or mic is mostly hearing midrange and upper-midrange content, the opposite of what is emphasized in the internal resonances of the head. I believe this disconnect is responsible for most "pitchy" vocal problems: the singer is not hearing what the mic is hearing, and is therefore singing to the wrong reference. I suspect hearing-damage might exacerbating this problem, in your case.

So how would I try to fix this?

First, I would turn down all the lows in your headphone mix. For starters, I would just try something like a shelving filter set to drop everything below maybe 1k by -12dB or more. And I mean everything, I would just put that across the main out to your phones, maybe with a little "bump" around 50-150Hz so you can get the energizing "kick" of the bass and drums. Then I might further cut and scoop your vocal feed to the phones especially in the 200-800Hz range, maybe drastically, maybe a big, wide scoop of -20dB or so, so that the phones are purely pumping into your head what is missing from your own internal hearing. Then I might put a distortion effect or overloaded compressor on your voice (just for the headphone mix) to really hammer home those upper harmonics. Last but not least, I would also typically throw in some exaggerated reverb with a short decay to really make your voice and the note "bloom" in the phones: I want you to cringe and instantly self-correct every time this big, upper-midrange wash of vocal harmonics goes into "iffy" pitch-territory.

Finally, in my experience, almost all singers benefit from singing to a headphone/monitor mix that is turned down just a little bit quieter than their comfort-zone, and then turned down just a little quieter still. Singers always want a mix that drowns out their voice, and they want the flattering effects of volume. But they tend to sing better when they are "naked" and just a little outside of their comfort zone. Lower volume has a focusing effect on the ears, and is a little embarrassing to sing to. It forces a kind of deliberate and purposeful attention to pitch and sound. And contrary to popular belief, most singers sound most passionate, emotional, and authentic when they ignoring the lyric and focusing most acutely on controlling the sound of their voice.

Hope that helps.

Have fun.

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Old 03-29-2014, 05:39 AM   #17
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OK, but don't hold back, tell me how you really feel! Yes, I do know my vocals are a challenge - and it may be related to hearing loss as I only began singing in later life (..past 50).

After reading your post I initially reached for the shotgun under my bed thinking "..heck what's the use in going on", but then I thought, maybe this guy knows something. I have to admit much of what you say goes right over my head. But, then I read the part about "singing naked", and thought maybe that would be fun.

So I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you are talking about. Actually, much of what you say does "resonate" with my interpretation of my vocal issues. You just may have done a good job of putting it in writing. I need to study what you have said here - there is a lot to digest. I do appreciate your input.

By the way, I have just begun keeping the hearing aids on in the studio. After reading this I can only agree it can't hurt.
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Old 03-29-2014, 11:37 AM   #18
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Interesting thread, Glad to see you are trying your best and pushing on.. don't stop.. never stop!!


Over time we all lose the ability to hear HF, Normally most cant hear above 18-19khz. then it drops down to 16khz with age.. and also dynamic volume perception.. Its easy to test your hearing in reaper just pull up the tone generator. But be aware of your speakers capabilities and your listening room (some rooms can dramatically change the HF from the speakers).. some speakers have significant roll off in the high range.. I just do not want anyone to think there hearing is shot when the problem could be there listening environment.


About the track, the drums are loud. and the cymbal hits are very loud. Personally I prefer the vocals to be dominate on mixes, but not by a large margin. and cymbals similar to the snare or just below..

But yes the mix dose have some bright elements..

doesn't sound like the hf is completely out of control here but just a little high in volume.. I have received mixes from people with good hearing create mixes that are brighter than this.



Yes there is a lot of timing issues here.
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Old 03-30-2014, 10:57 PM   #19
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Quote:
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...After reading your post I initially reached for the shotgun under my bed thinking "..heck what's the use in going on"...
Please do hold off on the shotgun for now. You are making the world a better place to live in by making music, even if you don't know the ways in which it is getting into people's ears. If you have a song to sing, and a day in which to sing it, then the world will be better off if you take that opportunity, even if nobody else hears it, and even if you yourself are deaf. The tree that falls *does* make a sound, even when nobody is there.

The song is a good one. Your singing voice is significantly better than bad. Your playing and instrumental skills are quite good, and some of the guitar stuff in particular is pretty sick.

I suspect that cranking the upper-mids (roughly 700Hz-2kHz) in your headphone mix or hearing aid will help align your voice pretty quickly.
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Old 03-30-2014, 11:15 PM   #20
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yep is legendary in these parts! The man has a lot of experience, and is willing to share it for the greater good. Like anything else, what we do with the information is subjective, but I believe he knows what he's talking about, so you can't go wrong by giving his input some thought. You're in good hands here, my friend!
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Old 03-30-2014, 11:46 PM   #21
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excellent advice from yep.. identified and explained in a way only an experienced tracking engineer can.. I really look up to guys like you, that can create an environment to capture a beautiful moment under the mics.. very specialized skill.. very awesome!!




never give up your passion to make music.. always will be a way with drive..
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Old 04-02-2014, 06:47 AM   #22
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Quote:
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Your singing voice is significantly better than bad.
"...significantly better than bad" - that's got to be the name of my next band. I love it.

You guys are great. Thanks for all the input.
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Old 04-04-2014, 07:44 PM   #23
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I went through what you are dealing with about 2 years ago. It took me a while to get used to them and now I wouldn't consider mixing without them. Can't mix what you can't hear, right? I'm glad I had the patience to get used to them. respectfully, -S
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