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Old 04-13-2013, 12:12 AM   #1
Celphor
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Default Support for Steinberg CMC Controller Series

Hi guys,

I came across these controllers last days and purchased the so called six pack, since it is reasonable priced now. So I want to start development on a control surface integration in Reaper. I did some preliminary tests so far and studied the MIDI implementation chart delivered by Steinberg.
To sum it up: A nice integration should be possible.

Why do I announce that now? Just to avoid work is done twice. If someone already started an implementation effort, please report it to me so I could save my precious time ;-)

Ideas and suggestions will be welcome any time...

So long

Celphor
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:02 PM   #2
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Default Update

I have setup a basic framework now and started development for the TP (transport) controller. Everything still looks good.
I guess the development will take about 200 hours in sum. Since I have a job I can only work on it on weekends. So please be patient ;-)
I plan the release in late Q2/2013.

If you want to have fun: In this video (http://www.musotalk.de/video/steinbe...r-fuer-cubase/ )the Steinberg guy talks about the controller series to support Mackie HUI. Mh... Well, in fact the protocol has nothing to do with HUI. It's closer to MCU. But of course different, so you can't use it out of the box without Cubase...

Last edited by Celphor; 04-14-2013 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 04-16-2013, 02:01 AM   #3
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After a weekend of hacking I almost finished the implementation for TP. I just hang with stuff which has nothing to do with the controller itself.
For example I couldn't figure out how to set the global tempo via Reaper API. This is needed for the tap tempo feature of the controller.

Another problem is the missing jog/shuttle support in Reaper. If anyone has a clue how to provide this functionality in a smart way, please let me know.

Next steps for me are the FD and CH controller...
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:18 AM   #4
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Again good news: I fiddled around with FD last night and have almost finished the implementation. Found an error in Steinbergs specification for the level meter saying F9 for the status byte instead of E9. Btw, mackie uses D0 for that, so it's obviously not working in mackie emulation mode of any DAW.
Seems like Steinberg doesn't want to see the controllers run with other DAWs than Cubase. Ok, we'll change that ;-)

I made big progress so far and think I can release earlier than expected. But I be aware of the 80/20 rule ;-) And I'm on vacation soon, without computer.
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Old 04-18-2013, 04:20 AM   #5
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Leiwand!!!!
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Old 04-18-2013, 05:37 AM   #6
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Leiwand!!!!
Ursläschig ;-)
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:36 AM   #7
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Development on FD is almost done, there are only a few improvements to do. I would be curious about who many FD controllers can be tied to the system. Steinberg sets a limit of 4 FD units for Cubase, but I think this is a Cubase-only limitation. IMHO the MIDI driver is a generic one from Yamaha, which should not count devices. So it would be a nice experiment to connect more than 4 to Reaper. If anyone near Vienna has some FD units for a test session, please let me know.

Yesterday I started with CH. The fader unit is again working different (like TP an FD) and seems not to support a level meter function.

And I read about a new dimming feature (requires firmware update), which allows the units to dim their lights in a dark surrounding. The commands to control this feature seem not have been published yet, so I will have to install Cubase AI *shudder* and trace the traffic. Maybe this reveal some other secrets..
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:05 AM   #8
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Default Dimming

I made a trace to see what is happening when Cubase requests the dimming mode.
Here's the result:

Sys ex to enable dimming:
F0 43 10 3E 18 00 01 02 01 F7

Sys ex to disable dimming:
F0 43 10 3E 18 00 01 02 00 F7

There's also a ping function:

Sending
F0 43 10 3E 18 00 01 F7

to a unit makes it respond with
F0 43 10 3E 18 00 01 01 00 F7
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:26 AM   #9
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The first and last Cubase version I owned was Cubase VST. Must have been in 1997 or so. I dumped it quickly because it was buggy, slow and absolutely unusable on my computer.
Today I installed Cubase AI6 to evaluate what the controllers are exactly doing. It didn't take long the programm starts to freeze my notebook for about 1 minute. After 20 minutes the computer totally hanged and needed a hard reset!!
Mh, I really had a bad deja vu after 16 years ... Looks like time stands still.

Reaper never ever crashed in all the time I've been using it, nor stopped the computer from working.

I'm pretty sure we're all in the right forum ;-)
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:47 PM   #10
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Little progress with CH is made. The problem is not the controller, but with assigning senseful actions with Reaper.

I did some investigation on QC and PD. Both have 3! MIDI in and out ports. There are also some sysex messages for both models. Needs some reverse engineering first...
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:26 AM   #11
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Ursläschig ;-)
I hia scho verschtanda

Any news?
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:04 AM   #12
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As mentioned in a previous post I have to interrupt development until May 8 because I'm on vacation now.

If someone has the controllers and wants to join testing, please let me know.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:47 AM   #13
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Time to continue development :-)
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:27 PM   #14
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I don't have any of those controllers, however they are clever little devices and i just wanted to say great stuff with your development
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:34 AM   #15
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Thank you, but hold on until there are first public results ;-)

The controllers are really nice and have much potential. Much more than Steinberg does within Cubase.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:15 AM   #16
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Currently I have to do an internal redesign. Every button should have a singleclick, doubleclick and "long press" handler. Together with shift this gives nice 6 function on one key :-)
Progress is a little slow now since I'm blocked by the job. I hope the long weekend will be rainy ;-)
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:15 PM   #17
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I'm watching this with interest, since these little units seem so darn cute and fit anywhere on a desk.
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:39 AM   #18
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Me too. Happy to see control surface implementation for Reaper.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:55 AM   #19
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Hello Celphor ( and you other guys)
This i s WAY cool!! I'm a 20+ year long Cubase user, owning 8 CMC's and been looking for a way to use these controllers in a smarter sense than using them with Cubase,which is insanely retarded when finding out they won't develop integration further from it's current state... ( to get the function i'm looking for i need to pay 23000 Euro for the Nuage )

I have been using Reaper some time and been trying to figure out what is possible by looking at all scripting functionality but haven't figured out really what the different possibilities are aimed at ( the SWS mainly.. is there other ways?)

So, how far do you think it will be possible to integrate the CMC's with Reaper?
And what tools do you use? ( If i may be som bold to ask)

If i can assist with anything, in any way,just send me a PM.. this is something i would kill for for to get
and also have a lot of time to put into it if it's leading to some serious integration.

Take care

/Magnus
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:49 PM   #20
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Hi Lundin,

nice to hear you are burning for it too ;-)

I try to sum up what I want to do:

1) Integrate all 6 devices. FD must supported at least 4 units at the same time - I will set no limit, so the limit is the Yamaha driver.
I'm not sure if it makes sense to allow multiple units of the other types, we'll see.
2) All buttons must be user assignable and will be assigned reasonable by default - assignment will be done in an INI-file and maybe later in an editor
3) All buttons have a click, double click and long press function (in two layers using shift)
4) The assignable functions will be Reaper actions, including custom actions. So you can assign functions of any reaper plugin providing actions (like SWS)
5) FD will work like in Cubase (if someone has additional ideas, let me know)
6) I have no final idea for QC and PD - I would like to avoid the external Steinberg editors if possible
7) AI may be a little problematic. Maybe Cockos can provide functions for the "control under mouse cursor". I didn't find something like this when browsing through the plugin functions...

Well, and 5893 other things are in my head ;-)
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:34 PM   #21
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That seems to be a good startingpoint.
As i'm not that familiar with all of Reapers core functionality and can't really find what i'm looking for in the manual or the SWS documentation it might not me possible, but as i find most of the basic structure is similar between the 2 programs (Cubase <-> Reaper) it really shouldn't be

There's basically 3 things i'm missing in Cubase:which to me is crucial to a fast workflow

1. CMC-FD: Visual Feedback which channel is selected in the projectwindow

i have 4FD's and there's no easy way to tell just by looking at them, you have to either press solo or Mute to do that, or move a fader and look at the monitor which renders them a bit un-intuitive)

2. Having direct access to inserting Plug-ins on channels and mimicing the "Right-mouse click-menu" to pop-up a sorted list of the available plugins

3. Shift-lock faders and other functions for a "precision-mode" for finetuning of whatever function is used.

The 8 rotaryencoders ( quick-controls) in Cubase is one thing that would be great to port ( CMC-QC)


EDIT: I've never used "use under mousebutton" and don't really see the point of it.. the meaning for me is to get rid of using the mouse and keyboard when working with a controller i.e One knob /button - One function.

Having a button ( as in F-keys) holding Macro's or being able to execute strings would be really neat.

I also could see better configurability ( is that really a word?)to all buttons and knobs so you could pretty much configure the layout how you tend to work, not the way the CMC like you to work.. ofcourse there's nearly endless possibilities in Cubase but most of the functions aren't that well thought out without the need to a lot of "in-between-tweaking" which hinders the creativity.

A good controller should be kind of transparent so you could focus more on what's important.

Anyway, i sense there's hope for it now

Last edited by Lundin; 05-19-2013 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:12 PM   #22
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That seems to be a good startingpoint.
As i'm not that familiar with all of Reapers core functionality and can't really find what i'm looking for in the manual or the SWS documentation.
Press Alt+? and see the list of Reapers actions. Plugins can provide extra actions. Actions can be combined to macros

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundin View Post
1. CMC-FD: Visual Feedback which channel is selected in the projectwindow

i have 4FD's and there's no easy way to tell just by looking at them, you have to either press solo or Mute to do that, or move a fader and look at the monitor which renders them a bit un-intuitive)
The only thing we can do is displaying a kind of number using the vu leds. In FD they are only working like bars filled from bottom to top. If you have an idea how to encode the track number with these LEDs, let me know.

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2. Having direct access to inserting Plug-ins on channels and mimicing the "Right-mouse click-menu" to pop-up a sorted list of the available plugins
Should be possible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundin View Post
3. Shift-lock faders and other functions for a "precision-mode" for finetuning of whatever function is used.
Easy, no problem. Every shift button will be "caps locked" when double clicked. Also the slider mode button on TP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundin View Post
The 8 rotaryencoders ( quick-controls) in Cubase is one thing that would be great to port ( CMC-QC)
Also possible, but where to store the assignments? Or do you mean the EQ mode?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundin View Post
the meaning for me is to get rid of using the mouse and keyboard when working with a controller i.e One knob /button - One function.
Maybe we can popup a window with the instruments parameters and browser/select with the buttons and the knob

Quote:
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Having a button ( as in F-keys) holding Macro's would be really neat.
...or being able to execute strings..
That's basic and will come
Executing a string? What should this be? ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundin View Post
I also could see better configurability ( is that really a word?)to all buttons and knobs so you could pretty much configure the layout how you tend to work, not the way the CMC like you to work.. ofcourse there's nearly endless possibilities in Cubase but most of the functions aren't that well thought out without the need to a lot of "in-between-tweaking" which hinders the creativity.
Every button will be customizable, if it makes sense. The play button, for example, will never do something different ;-)
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:12 AM   #23
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Press Alt+? and see the list of Reapers actions. Plugins can provide extra actions. Actions can be combined to macros
Ah, yes i now recall i've seen that one but i think i meant that i haven't
taken the time to actually try them out in context, i.e hands-on experience.

When you say "Plug-in's can provide extra actions" do you mean core plugins for extending Reaper functionality?

Quote:
The only thing we can do is displaying a kind of number using the vu leds. In FD they are only working like bars filled from bottom to top. If you have an idea how to encode the track number with these LEDs, let me know.
Do you think it will be necessary at all to have them numbered? I've always felt it would be self explanatory if you have one (1) track that is visually different in the arrays of 4 faders.. i had an idea that maybe the LED's on the selected track (fader) could be a little brighter ( ..or maybe better to make the other non-selected a little less bright), maybe you could make the active track slowly blinking, maybe you could light up an extra "led-dot" beneath the one that's mimicing the faderknob, maybe using the one's that today is showing if the track is muted or soloed e.t.c

If i would now how you work and what tools you are using and how the coding should be done maybe i could investigate what i had in mind and present them in a better technical way. I'm no coder in that sense but find this kind of "reverse-engineering" challenging and fun.

Quote:
Quote:
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The 8 rotaryencoders ( quick-controls) in Cubase is one thing that would be great to port ( CMC-QC)
Also possible, but where to store the assignments? Or do you mean the EQ mode?
No, you're right, i meant to use these 8 knobs for user functions.
But in conjunction with a pushbutton maybe group the knobs together for different functions.. ie. tieing a pushbutton to an "Instrument-mode" which switches these knobs for Instrument specific parametertweaking or a pushbutton that's named "EQ" to switch the knobs to EQ-parameters.. i.e dedicatied EQ-mode, or maybe a deluxeversion which dedicates one knob to one insert-slot i.e dedicated plugin-selector for each insert.

I managed to borrow the new Nektar Panorama 2 weeks ago and this one's using some kind of "bank-funktion" and are able to recall map's of the learned plug-ins parameters. The maps are saved to disc and is recallable from the controller. But the Panorama is using i High-Res minidisplay so it makes more sense there.. the only thing this one is lacking is when selecting plug-ins presets from the controller it doesn't display the Preset names.

I could easily see a little "config-window" in reaper that holds the names tied to the 8 knobs, kind of like the Automap software ( I have this one too and could send screendumps for ideas) and from this you could load and save these maps. The Novation Remote has 16 map-layers and can be switched from the controller, but i don't think more than 8 paramaters isn't that necessary at this point as i find the Novation Remote'ss layout more of a tool when you editing sounds or dig deeper into plug-ins.

But again, i believe your'e into extensive "User-config"? which must be the absolutely most flexible way to do it


Quote:
Maybe we can popup a window with the instruments parameters and browser/select with the buttons and the knob
I like this idéa, flexibility again.

Quote:
That's basic and will come
Executing a string? What should this be? ;-)
Executing a string?.. Kill the violin ofcourse .
Executing several keycommands in one go, string them together.
( I think it's the right term anyway.)

Quote:
Every button will be customizable, if it makes sense. The play button, for example, will never do something different ;-)
It would be more fun if these functions are randomized everytime

..No, ofcourse you are right.

One other thing about the AI knob: This one i'm using for main-volume in the mastersection, i also use this one when selecting Plug-in presets ( push the button when a plug-in is open, opens the Preset-dialog of the Plug-in, turning the knob scrolls through the Plugin list, pressing the knob again selects and loads the preset) and also for Jogging.. these three things are a bit crucial too.. i didn't think i would use the AI knob at all, but have come to find it a necessity.

Last edited by Lundin; 05-20-2013 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:13 AM   #24
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Puh, so much text to handle ;-)

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When you say "Plug-in's can provide extra actions" do you mean core plugins for extending Reaper functionality?
It's possible to write libraries containing actions (e.g. a DLL in Windows). SWS does it this way too.


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Do you think it will be necessary at all to have them numbered?
No, but I had no other idea yet, since the fader LEDs are very limited. They only can make bars and the mute/solo display, not the other patterns like in TP.

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..track (fader) could be a little brighter ( ..or maybe better to make the other non-selected a little less bright),
I haven't found a way to do so. The CMC lists all possible MIDI commands in the addendum and there seems to be no (documented) command to do so.

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i could investigate what i had in mind and present them in a better technical way.
You don't need to be a programmer to investigate the possibilities. Download MidiOX and send the MIDI commands directly to the device to see what happens :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundin View Post
No, you're right, i meant to use these 8 knobs for user functions.
But in conjunction with a pushbutton maybe group the knobs together for different functions..
ie. tieing a pushbutton to an "Instrument-mode" which switches these knobs for Instrument specific
parametertweaking or a pushbutton that's named "EQ" to switch the knobs to EQ-parameters..
i.e dedicatied EQ-mode, or maybe a deluxeversion which dedicates one knob to one insert-slot i.e dedicated plugin-selector for each insert.
I'm happy if your having a concept, since I didn't think about it much yet. It will be the last device I will work on, because it's at least usable in MIDI mode without any programing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundin View Post
I managed to borrow the new Nektar Panorama 2 weeks ago and this one's using some kind of
"bank-funktion" and are able to recall map's of the learned plug-ins parameters.
The maps are saved to disc and is recallable from the controller.
But the Panorama is using i High-Res minidisplay so it makes more sense there..
the only thing this one is lacking is when selecting plug-ins presets from the controller it doesn't display the Preset names.
I have not seen any controller which solves these problems elegantly. Same with e.g. NI Machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundin View Post
I could easily see a little "config-window" in reaper that holds the names tied to the 8 knobs,
kind of like the Automap software ( I have this one too and could send screendumps for ideas)
and from this you could load and save these maps. The Novation Remote has 16 map-layers and
can be switched from the controller, but i don't think more than 8 paramaters isn't
that necessary at this point as i find the Novation Remote'ss layout more of a tool when you editing sounds or dig deeper into plug-ins.
Yes, I also thought about kind of OSC (on screen display), maybe in a dockable window. But I think this should be programmed in a generic way to be used with other controllers too.
Maybe a nice additional project for the future :-)

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But again, i believe your'e into extensive "User-config"? which must be the absolutely most flexible way to do it
Yes, flexibility is most important. Everybody works differently and this must reflect in the design of the controller plugin.

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Executing a string?.. Kill the violin ofcourse .
Executing several keycommands in one go, string them together.
;-) You can chain commands in the actions window (press ?, not Alt-?, my mistake) and on the right bottom you find the "New" button to create this kind of chains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundin View Post
One other thing about the AI knob: This one i'm using for main-volume in the mastersection,
Ok, that's easy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundin View Post
i also use this one when selecting Plug-in presets ( push the button when a plug-in is open, opens the Preset-dialog of the Plug-in,
turning the knob scrolls through the Plugin list, pressing the knob again selects and loads the preset)
I guess this should be makeable.

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and also for Jogging..
Easy :-)
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:19 AM   #25
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Puh, so much text to handle ;-)
The ball is rolling so you have to get used to it..

Quote:
You don't need to be a programmer to investigate the possibilities. Download MidiOX and send the MIDI commands directly to the device to see what happens :-)
Ah, yes, the fantastic Midiox, that one's easy.. i'll check what i find to see if any ideas spring to mind.

As you see i didn't quote the all lenghty text this time.. i'll just say good luck and keep up the posting.
Also it'll be interresting to see this project come to life.
Take care
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:22 AM   #26
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Hi,

time to give you an update.
I'm still refactoring the code, because new ideas doesn't fit well the current code base. All configuration will go to an INI file.

Lundin will support me with ideas and testing, so I don't fight alone ;-)
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:58 AM   #27
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Yup, and it's looking good so far.
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Old 06-02-2013, 10:06 AM   #28
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First alpha build delivered to Lundin - stay tuned :-)
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:51 AM   #29
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Hi Celphor,

Thanks for all the great work !
I am very interested by the CMC support as well ! If you want me to alpha-test as well, let me know.

Cheers
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Old 06-05-2013, 03:17 AM   #30
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Hi Giom,

thanks for your interest in the project. I will include you in the beta phase when things are more stable and we have a little manual. Otherwise I have to invest too much time in explaining things, if you understand...

CU

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Old 06-08-2013, 11:16 AM   #31
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Sure no worries
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Old 06-08-2013, 02:26 PM   #32
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Ever wanted to know what happens if you connect a second CMC device of the same type to your computer at the same time?

It's recognized and shows up with an evocative name like: "2- Steinberg-CH-1" (in my case when using a second CH).

The two devices are addressable independently so one application for a secondary CH could be to have it solely on the master, while the other is on the selected track. Not in Cubase of course. But soon in Reaper ;-)

I will test this with all device types, because I have a second of each at hand now.

So we can assume that the number of connected devices is only limited by the size of your purse, USB (127) and your local power plant ;-)

Last edited by Celphor; 06-08-2013 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 06-10-2013, 12:59 PM   #33
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Sounds great.
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Old 06-17-2013, 12:58 AM   #34
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Development is still in progress. While working on the project new ideas came up which increased complexity as well as effort.
So it will take a little longer to finish as originally expected.
Hold on.. :-)
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:17 AM   #35
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I can really confirm the "complexity part" Celphor is speaking about but from what i've seen (and ofcourse tested) so far, even though it's still in very early stages i have a strong feeling this project will be something else when the final version is released.
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:18 AM   #36
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It's time to give you an update again.
As I told you new ideas came up while development and this requires a new way to express the configuration. The old approach with an INI file was so unreadable, overloaded and limited that I decided to create a little configuration language.
This ensures extensibility for any future ideas and provides the most generic way of integration.
To get this all realised a lot of extra tasks need to be done: inventing a grammar, lexing, parsing, building the abstract syntax tree and then builing a high performance backend to allow realtime application in Reaper.
This requires a few extra weeks of work so please give me little time to get it all done. It'll be worth waiting, be sure ;-)

It doesn't make sense to release the current version when the update will provide such a major change.

CU soon
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Old 06-30-2013, 03:48 PM   #37
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I had a thought that this INI file were going to be very large and the complexity would make the whole idea a bit unflexible but always trusted you to b the expert so i kept my trap shut :-D

Good to see the inspiration is still there.

I've begun to study the idea about using the GetSetTrackState() to use in conjunction with the VST insert FX but so far i can't really see that this is the most flexible way to accomplish the task.. but again.. i'm having a hard time figuring out how ReaScript v.s Python should interact.. it's a pity there's so little explanation regarding this topic amd that it's more down to trial and error to learn..

Talk soon.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:02 PM   #38
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I' veread through this thread so far and it sounds like that you are creating a monster.
I guess when you are done that your version is able to perform stuff that the Steinberg / Yamaha developers were not even thinking about.
Thanks for all your work and spent time on this project.

I am very interested in these controllers because of their price, their size, and the abillity to create your own modular system covering your personal needs.
Today I called my local music dealer (Just Music Hamburg) and asked if the CH model does work with Reaper or different DAW's right out of the box. Just the basic functions. but he said that it only works with Cubase. But he told me that Steinberg is going to change that in the future due to public demand. He told me that they will provide drivers for different DAW's also.
Maybe thats an interessting information.

Do you have a version ready for beta testing for the CH model of the series that is able to perform the basic functions like transport, fader and pan ? I would like to test it on my system.


Cheers SchlemmieZ
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:13 PM   #39
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watching this. Even though I have no interest in buying one of the Steinberg controllers I want to show some support for the development. Keep up the hard work.
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:12 AM   #40
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Hi Schlemmie,
thanks for your supporting words and offer to help.
Well, the project changed a little bit from the early assumptions. The first approach was to just make it work in some way. But during development new wishes and possibilities came up, so I made hard changes to the base.
It's pretty much work, but it will be very cool ;-)
And I have a lot to do in my regular job these days, so I need my rare spare time to relax :-(

Your dealer is right. It can't work out of the box with another DAW, because the protocol is not standard. Some features are, but most are not.
If Steinberg says they will provide support for other DAWs I hardly can believe. This would mean they prodive native "drivers" (like CSurf in Reaper) for other DAWs. I'm pretty sure this will never happen...

I will do it the other way. My development aims towards CMC integration in Reaper and this will be done. But the new system is very powerfull and has potential to use it with other controllers too. I just need to find a way to express it in the configuration. Wouldn't it be cool to have e.g. some CMC devices work together with a BCF 2000 or a Faderport? :-)
These are ideas for the future, I keep them in mind while developing for the CMC and then we'll see.

Please be patient a little bit, if there is stuff to test I will provide you with a version...
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