how do you mix drums? as in stereo field

[dmoss74]

do you mix drums as if you are watching a band on stage? whereby the floor toms would be stereo left (taking into account a right handed drummer)? or do you mix them as if you're hearing them from the drummer's vantage point?

i hear examples of both all the time, and was wondering how folks address this. me, personally, i like the "listening from the stage" perspective.

[Coachz]

Eddie Kramer ....

What perspective of the drum kit do you like to depict—the audience perspective or the drummer’s?

What I do that not many people do, is that I record everything from the drummer’s perspective, and present it on the record as the drummer sees it—not as the audience sees it. So the drummer’s hi-hats are always on the left. Always. I like to pretend that I’m the drummer—it’s more exciting that way.


http://www.chipstern.com/chip_sound_ekp1.htm

[dmoss74]

i guess it wouldn't matter with a 3 mic glyn johns setup.

[dub tree]

I think it depends on the song. My default, since I used to drum in bands, is to go for drummer perspective. Hearing the hihats panned right just confuses my right-handed drummer brain. But sometimes, a song might call for mono drums, or something different. If I'm mic'ing up my drum kit, I only have two inputs at the moment so I just go for a 58 on the kick and a single LDC overhead; sometimes I will automate the pan of the overhead to get a sort of "stereo sweep" during an important fill or something like that.

It seems like on a lot of older records, there was some weird LCR stuff going on, where perhaps the kick was panned hard left and the snare hard right. I think maybe this was due to technical limitations of older consoles, though I might be mistaken. I've always wanted to try mixing a project in earnest in LCR but it comes out sounding unnatural and lopsided when I've experimented.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Coachz

Eddie Kramer ....

What perspective of the drum kit do you like to depict—the audience perspective or the drummer’s?

What I do that not many people do, is that I record everything from the drummer’s perspective, and present it on the record as the drummer sees it—not as the audience sees it. So the drummer’s hi-hats are always on the left. Always. I like to pretend that I’m the drummer—it’s more exciting that way.

Heh heh, well it's really easy to turn it around if you want to.

Actually when recording a live drummer, I've basically done it that way to coachz, although I never really paid that much attention to it. I think I just had a tendency to put myself in the drummers shoes back then.

The thing about it is when your recording a live band, after a few takes they're all going to be headed for the control room, wanting to hear what they did. At that stage, I always found that having the drums really sounding good was the most important thing, and if you impressed the drummer, it was even better.

http://www.chipstern.com/chip_sound_ekp1.htm

That's a great link, I need to go back when I've got a little more time.

Originally Posted by dub tree

It seems like on a lot of older records, there was some weird LCR stuff going on, where perhaps the kick was panned hard left and the snare hard right. I think maybe this was due to technical limitations of older consoles, though I might be mistaken. I've always wanted to try mixing a project in earnest in LCR but it comes out sounding unnatural and lopsided when I've experimented.

Humm, how old are we talking about dub tree. Back in the 1950s, things like that might have have been experimented with, mostly due to the lack of multi-track taping. But kick on the left and snare on the right would never work due to the difference in frequency.

If you're stuck with recording drums in stereo, just mic them up like you would a full drum kit but use the OHs for the stereo and then pan the rest of the mono mics as you see fit, L&R.

Now if you don't have enough mics, then just experiment, trial and error is your friend.

[dmoss74]

Originally Posted by Tod

Humm, how old are we talking about dub tree. Back in the 1950s, things like that might have have been experimented with, mostly due to the lack of multi-track taping. But kick on the left and snare on the right would never work due to the difference in frequency.

If you're stuck with recording drums in stereo, just mic them up like you would a full drum kit but use the OHs for the stereo and then pan the rest of the mono mics as you see fit, L&R.

Now if you don't have enough mics, then just experiment, trial and error is your friend.

no, there were plenty of bands that went deep into the '70s that did a lot of lrc drum mixing. they may have been emulating beatles era stuff, but it happened a lot.

per example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1A5WBf1EFQ

todd always did a lot of interesting drum mixing, but i know for sure he was influenced by the abbey road recordings.

[dub tree]

Originally Posted by Tod

Humm, how old are we talking about dub tree. Back in the 1950s, things like that might have have been experimented with, mostly due to the lack of multi-track taping. But kick on the left and snare on the right would never work due to the difference in frequency.

Well it may not be how I remember it; perhaps I was thrown off by all the hard-panned drums of the Beatles era, where they would have the drum kit hard left and maybe some jangly percussion bits hard right. Revolver comes to mind.

Then there's that Todd Rundgren album; the song linked above has the whole kit hard left with a snare overdubbed hard right. Interesting production all across that album, really.

Soft Machine had some stuff where they just went bananas with sweeping hard pans on the drums in sync with the beat; "So Boot If At All" off their first album comes to mind in particular. A bit experimental, certainly.

I seem to recall some strange panning on Electric Ladyland. "Rainy Day, Dream Away" has some funny stereo stuff going on, but notably the kick seems to live only in the left channel, but the rest of the kit is kind of all over. I'm pretty sure it's not the only song on that album to do that. I think that's the album that got me into the whole pan-automation-during-drum-fills idea. Overall, that album has some confusing stereo stuff going on, though that goes beyond the scope of LCR I suppose.

I'm not a fan of their style, but Thrice did it on part of a song, kick hard left and the rest of the kit hard right. Of course, it's a genre where the kick is mostly click, and this was done purely for effect during a breakdown. The Strokes also have a song, "Razor Blade," where the kick mic is definitely panned hard right for whatever reason, but the overheads place the snare more to the left.

So maybe it's not a thing as I had thought, but it's not entirely unheard of. I think my memory's just hazy, and I was just recalling so many albums where the whole drum kit is panned hard to one side and the rest of the band is on the other side and up the middle.

[Tod]

Hi guys, I didn't mean to indicate that it's never been done, I actually meant that it's not the norm and I guess I could have said it better.

I should add, that there are some engineers today that advocate LCR recording, with instruments either direct left, center, or right. However they're doing it in a balanced way, and that's okay, it can sound great if you get a good balance. However, it can sound pretty strange in a set of earphones.

[dmoss74]

Originally Posted by Tod

I should add, that there are some engineers today that advocate LCR recording, with instruments either direct left, center, or right. However they're doing it in a balanced way, and that's okay, it can sound great if you get a good balance. However, it can sound pretty strange in a set of earphones.

all true. it reminds me the old days in record stores, where the two speakers would be a large room apart from each other. if they were piping in beatles (stereo mastered) records, and you were on one side of the store, it could be quite disconcerting to listen to.

i have a lot of old jazz and pop records (heavily orchestrated) that were done very well in lrc mixes, but one can easily see how challenging it was to get a proper balance. if something went too long on one side, you could easily find yourself getting a bit disoriented.

here's a great example of doing it right. the engineers knew to keep the rhythm section in the c position, and the l/r horns are arranged almost perfectly. plus, judicious amounts of reverb added to the overall balance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA9nxbz2h4Y

[ivansc]

A thought: how many of you record drummers with twenty foot long arms and legs?

I put "the kit" sort of in the middle with a narrow stereo width to get it sounding like a kit does in a real space.

[slipstick]

So did we decide whether you mix from the drummer's perspective or the audience's ? It never previously occurred to me that there was even a question. Why would you do anything other than the audience perspective ?

But then I've been deaf in one ear for 40-odd years so stereo is just a rumour to me and I set the stereo field by metering (checked by a friend or two for important mixes). Hardly anyone ever seems to complain but maybe they're just being polite .

Steve

[Wolffman]

Personally i think it makes sense to mix drums from the audiences perspective, after all the only person who hears it from the drummers perspective is the drummer.
Even the other band members hear drums from either there left or right side or from behind them.

We as players are the minority.

I also mix drums like ivansc, using up to about 50% of the stereo field, i don't like it when i hear a tom roll and the toms are panned hard left & right, it just seems very unnatural to me, personal opinion of course .

cheers

[Winfield]

Drummers perspective - non-players are none the wiser.

-W

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by Wolffman

Personally i think it makes sense to mix drums from the audiences perspective, after all the only person who hears it from the drummers perspective is the drummer.
Even the other band members hear drums from either there left or right side or from behind them.

We as players are the minority.

I also mix drums like ivansc, using up to about 50% of the stereo field, i don't like it when i hear a tom roll and the toms are panned hard left & right, it just seems very unnatural to me, personal opinion of course .

cheers

Eddie Kramer didnt do to bad doing drummers perspective.

[dmoss74]

i broached the subject after many years of wondering how certain engineers/producers addressed this matter. like i said, i've heard it done both ways, even sometimes from the same band/engineering team.

i could see the pros and cons for either way; but i do tend to prefer to hear it as if i'm in an audience. that's pretty much how everything else is mixed, and kind of the basis for the whole "sound staging" thing.

but as mentioned, a very wide stereo field for drums isn't quite right, either. extending beyond half way (on either side) would sound very unnatural. and yes, in most live situations (unless nothing is miked) you aren't going to hear the drums (or anything else) in a stereo field, unless you're sitting right in front of the stage.

[Wolffman]

Originally Posted by Coachz

Eddie Kramer didnt do to bad doing drummers perspective.

as i said

Originally Posted by Wolffman

personal opinion of course .
cheers

[ivansc]

Just to expand slightly on comments so far, at one time in my life I mixed FOH in some pretty large venues. 99% of the mix was as near to straight mono as I could get it.
Some spot effects did need to be stereo, but I was always aware of the poor saps in the cheap seats extreme left and extreme right, who never heard most of what was going on musically on the other side of a full stereo mix.
This is really worth bearing in mind even when mixing for someones living room.
Stereo as an effect works great, but it is all too easy to over-egg the pudding.


And I thought Eddie Kramer only worked with left handed drummers! Who knew?


(humour alert)