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Old 08-29-2012, 05:08 AM   #41
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ned,

that demo video is old, PiP content drawing changed since.
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:07 AM   #42
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That's what I kind of figured. Doesn't really affect it's functionality at any rate.

Thanks for clearing that up Beatbybit.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:49 AM   #43
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ah come on no updates in the pip department yet??

i would settle for just realtime audio without rendering..

if in the pip you have track fx, changing some parameters is annoying cause in the project you have to wait for the pip to render...

i'm thinking even installing mac on a hard-drive (hackintosh) to just test logic and it's folders to see how things are there...
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:06 PM   #44
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ah come on no updates in the pip department yet??
Reaper is what it is, a $60 app, i wouldn't expect any updates to PIP at this point, it has been left to rot like a lot of Reapers unfinished features for a long time
Use it as is and just understand the apps issues, you will be much happier haha
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:09 PM   #45
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I'm finding pips more than useful and if you add vsts it pays to freeze those tracks before you save. Maybe one day pip files will do a render wave automatically on save and then the parent project file will reference that
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:00 PM   #46
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This is what a lot of us guys using Energy XT 1.4 loved.
Projects inside of projects, multi-project view (so that a "track" would represent such a PiP and arranging several of them would create your main arrangement).

Triggering PiPs hold/toggle/one-shot via MIDI and thus arranging your track "on-the-fly". Kinda like triggering scenes in Ableton Live, but much nicer and deeper.

Using PiPs hold/trigger/one-shot/arrangement to automate parameters.
Since the resolution could be chosen to be more than MIDI resolution (0-127), this was perfect for triggering your automation "clips".

It doesn't matter if it's MIDI/audio or automation/VST-routing, you can build a library and just insert it into a project and route signals to it or triggers signals sent back to the main arrangement from it.

Of course using PiPs as multi-FX "effect boards".
Have your delays, verbs, eqs, side-chain compression all within one PiP alongside automation for said FX and routing a single/multiple outputs from the main arrangement to them.

Is this hard, workflow-wise for the user? Nope. It's nothing else than having a drum machine playing a pattern, triggering different patterns via MIDI/keyboard/arranging scenes or time selections, while you play a chord on your keyboard or recording your guitar and using switch pedal to trigger different effects (including FX routing and automation, see above) on the fly or sync'ed to your projects tempo.

This is a dream-come-true for all musicians and a perfect way to build a universal library of MIDI parts/audio snippets & arrangements and FX "containers".

This is "templates with sequencing capabilities" on steroids.
And yes, we Energy XT 1.4 user had it and loved it.
The concepts seem overwhelming and at first you think, it's not usable or will be way too complicated, but once you used it you realize how simple the implementation can be and you ask yourself, why not every DAW/sequencer works like that.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:31 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Stargard View Post
This is what a lot of us guys using Energy XT 1.4 loved.
Projects inside of projects, multi-project view (so that a "track" would represent such a PiP and arranging several of them would create your main arrangement).

Triggering PiPs hold/toggle/one-shot via MIDI and thus arranging your track "on-the-fly". Kinda like triggering scenes in Ableton Live, but much nicer and deeper.

Using PiPs hold/trigger/one-shot/arrangement to automate parameters.
Since the resolution could be chosen to be more than MIDI resolution (0-127), this was perfect for triggering your automation "clips".

It doesn't matter if it's MIDI/audio or automation/VST-routing, you can build a library and just insert it into a project and route signals to it or triggers signals sent back to the main arrangement from it.

Of course using PiPs as multi-FX "effect boards".
Have your delays, verbs, eqs, side-chain compression all within one PiP alongside automation for said FX and routing a single/multiple outputs from the main arrangement to them.

Is this hard, workflow-wise for the user? Nope. It's nothing else than having a drum machine playing a pattern, triggering different patterns via MIDI/keyboard/arranging scenes or time selections, while you play a chord on your keyboard or recording your guitar and using switch pedal to trigger different effects (including FX routing and automation, see above) on the fly or sync'ed to your projects tempo.

This is a dream-come-true for all musicians and a perfect way to build a universal library of MIDI parts/audio snippets & arrangements and FX "containers".

This is "templates with sequencing capabilities" on steroids.
And yes, we Energy XT 1.4 user had it and loved it.
The concepts seem overwhelming and at first you think, it's not usable or will be way too complicated, but once you used it you realize how simple the implementation can be and you ask yourself, why not every DAW/sequencer works like that.
Nice post, totally agree. It's a shame that here we are in 2012, and still we're stuck for the most part in the old linear DAW paradigm for making music. Like you say, there's been some timid efforts by ableton (and Renoise) towards changing this a little - and I also remember 'live mode' in energyXT 1.4, and the promise it held... but it never ended up maturing to something that seriously could be used.

The basic thing for me is the need to separate the building of short ideas from the arranging of them. I use reaper for music making now (as the least worse of options I guess) and get some mileage out of project tabs for this... and the project bay is helpful to an extent, but I still always get to a point where I have 16 or 32 bars that sound decent, and get afraid to mess with them and experiment for fear of losing what I have. Really need some ableton on steroids arrangement view with PIP's to be able to combine/layer them without committing. It's a different way of working, like TR-909 patterns.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:16 AM   #48
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not sure if resurrecting a dead thread but

Jesus Christ, I was looking for this future all over the place... And I randomly found it. any good info on this? I read the thread but yeah some nice tutorials would be good!
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:44 AM   #49
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Have been playing around with Studio One's mastering feature for a while and find it quite amazing. And it seems to be right up PiP's alley. Maybe the biggest problem right now is that the projects are rendered into RAM, so if you have 10 large tracks to master for an album, then you won't have much memory left! I think Studio One's way of rendering the project to audio and then re-rendering it whenever the original project is modified is just brilliant.

Hopefully it'll show up for V5.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:06 AM   #50
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soon we gotta start a "PiPs 2013" thread..

oh well.

btw PiP wasnt meant to be a mastering tool. original idea is pattern based audio composition. (.reaparts)

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not sure if resurrecting a dead thread but

Jesus Christ, I was looking for this future all over the place... And I randomly found it. any good info on this? I read the thread but yeah some nice tutorials would be good!

you can find a video here:

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p=43780
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:30 AM   #51
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I know this is an old thread but I didn't want to start a new one just to ask... PiP in v5?
Do we have any hope for a stable PiP feature in v5? Or 5.x? What do you think? Will devs surprise us like they did with VCA? I hope so! I think it would be more important than notation for exampe but of course that's just my personal opinion.
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Old 01-28-2015, 12:31 PM   #52
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I'm really helping they will

I think they know why it would be really useful and they will get around to it so all good.

They have their hands full now with the new bits they've just added so it might take some time or be a later release but I'll be on it like a hawk to help with fine tuning it when they do!
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Old 01-28-2015, 12:45 PM   #53
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Justin has said it will be a lot of work to get it to being usable with nested saving of PIPs and implode/explode, so while it may happen at some point, just use it as is.
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Old 01-28-2015, 01:12 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
Justin has said it will be a lot of work to get it to being usable with nested saving of PIPs and implode/explode, so while it may happen at some point, just use it as is.
Even without the nested feature there are a few much smaller "features" that would be a massive help.

Things I'd like to see improved though would be:

-a button on PIP items to temporarily "freeze"/commit a PIP to a physical disk file (instead of ram) so that you can load a big project without it having to load all the other PIPs first for the RAM renders.

-An option to have any new PIPS "take" the project settings from the master PIP they were created in. (this one would really help guys)

-An option to select a bunch of tracks/items and turn them into a PIP. (we can kind of do it but it's messy)

-The other thing would be an option to "expand" a pip into a visible set of tracks and items into the same master project like cubase's folder system does now.

(that last one is the nested bit which would take a lot of work but be bloody awesome. I'd MUCH rather just have items on folder tracks that represent the items on the children tracks. Like below

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Old 01-28-2015, 01:26 PM   #55
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Temporary freeze button
Implode selection to pip

Would be really really good

Plus have the option to save project and pips to the one rpp
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Old 01-28-2015, 05:21 PM   #56
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(that last one is the nested bit which would take a lot of work but be bloody awesome. I'd MUCH rather just have items on folder tracks that represent the items on the children tracks. Like below

Create your tracks in your folder, place an empty item on the folder track, group it to all the items ?
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Old 01-28-2015, 06:00 PM   #57
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Create your tracks in your folder, place an empty item on the folder track, group it to all the items ?
Totally doesn't work I've tried!

If you try it in nuendo/cubase or now even logic what you'll find is that it's dynamic where by any additional items on any new child tracks are automatically included and reflected in the folder item.

Cutting, stretching and copying the folder item accurately copies the child items without having to ungroup, disabling grouping, adding to group etc.

Editing drums for instance is much cleaner this way (especially if the folder item shows audio waveforms) plus if the items are disparate, the folder still edits them well.

Another thing is stretching wouldn't work with grouping, you wouldn't get the relative stretch for items with gaps in them, their starts wouldn't move correctly.

Another thing to have like this would be the protools way of grouping items over multiple tracks whereby upon grouping you get a single item over all the tracks and any gaps, automation and things like that are included properly.

Reaper grouping could be improved to do this and that would be a good start.
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Old 02-12-2015, 02:20 PM   #58
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Had to post this from Lawrence/studio1 as it's a better example of how folders as containers could look in reaper. (this would be separate to PIPs as we have now.

It should be able to also expand the folder like normal to child tracks if we want too for deeper editing but then collapsing them again to become just a folder of all the stuff contained on the child tracks.

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...

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Old 02-15-2015, 08:24 AM   #59
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pips have a very important use in film work because they have their own independent tempo track and playrate envelope

You need your master project to have "real" time on the ruler - but it is great to be able to put multiple cues with tempo and playdate changes in the project.

When the editor decides to make the car chase shorter you can just make the PiP shorter or increase its playrate and you're done - this can be practically impossible otherwise...

Then when he decides he wants more bass in that cue you can still open up the underlying project and change the mix...

A working and efficient PiP would be incredibly helpful when assembling a film mix - basically like having live-linked stems.
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Old 02-15-2015, 08:34 AM   #60
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Exactly! It's very powerful for this and I use PIPS for each sound effect in sound design for games too.

Justin/Schwa. Please can we get one small thing that would make a big difference.

Can newly created PIPs inherit the same properties as their parent/master project. This means, all project properties

This would help a lot right now

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pips have a very important use in film work because they have their own independent tempo track and playrate envelope

You need your master project to have "real" time on the ruler - but it is great to be able to put multiple cues with tempo and playdate changes in the project.

When the editor decides to make the car chase shorter you can just make the PiP shorter or increase its playrate and you're done - this can be practically impossible otherwise...

Then when he decides he wants more bass in that cue you can still open up the underlying project and change the mix...

A working and efficient PiP would be incredibly helpful when assembling a film mix - basically like having live-linked stems.
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Old 02-15-2015, 10:07 AM   #61
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I am still dreaming with PiP.
One may think, ok, in V4 PiP was disabled and a hidden not supported feature, maybe because they prioritized other features first. Now in v5 it is time for PiPs to come back right? Well.. It seems there are new features in v5 that seems to go first again... It is really sad. Maybe not for 5.0.. but for 5.1 or 5.2... or 5.3.... or even 5.4 ! But PiP must come back Look at Sony Vegas! It supports PiP. REPAER, are you going to let Vegas win you in that? It doesn't matter for me if it doesn't support PiP within a PiP. But at least something! Some basic PiP support without crashes would be great.
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Old 02-15-2015, 10:19 AM   #62
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I'm posting this again so it's in the Devs faces when they see this!

Things I'd like to see improved though would be:

-a button on PIP items to temporarily "freeze"/commit a PIP to a physical disk file (instead of ram) so that you can load a big project without it having to load all the other PIPs first for the RAM renders.

-An option to have any new PIPS "take" the project settings from the master PIP they were created in. (this one would really help guys)

-An option to select a bunch of tracks/items and turn them into a PIP. (we can kind of do it but it's messy)

-The other thing would be an option to "expand" a pip into a visible set of tracks and items into the same master project like cubase's folder system does now.

-The following bug just got brought to my attention too and severely limits the use of PIPs.
Currently, all imported projects always get turned into copies so there's no way to affect the original project once turned into a PIP. It always gets turned into a new copy (in the project directory) with the suffix "-imported".
Hope we can get that fixed as it would be very powerful for many uses in music and post production/sound design/games.
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Old 02-15-2015, 10:27 AM   #63
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some features have been added that seem to be with PiP in mind.
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:01 AM   #64
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some features have been added that seem to be with PiP in mind.
I didn't spot those (although I haven't been following super closely) - can you be more specific?
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Old 03-18-2015, 04:54 AM   #65
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can't remember now, something about multiple project tabs being more easy to control or play in sync, i feel like there was one other thing, you'll have to go through the pre 5 changelog.
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Old 03-18-2015, 05:07 AM   #66
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here's to more changes soon I hope!
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Old 03-18-2015, 10:13 AM   #67
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can't remember now, something about multiple project tabs being more easy to control or play in sync, i feel like there was one other thing, you'll have to go through the pre 5 changelog.
http://www.landoleet.org/whatsnew5.txt

hmmm i always keep an eye on anything related to playing multiple project tabs at once / having multiple in-project play cursors and i haven't seen anything pop up
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Old 03-18-2015, 10:19 AM   #68
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ok maybe this is the only one

Code:
Automation: support for recording automation in background projects
*shrug*
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Old 03-27-2015, 01:04 PM   #69
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Awesomeness!

In the Feature Requests forum I stated:
Some experimental workflows I've done so far with PIPs:

1) For making a DJ like mix/arrangement of parts, I've used PiPs for the parts, which are automatically timesynced. Also, in them, I've used regions to show the Chords of the progressions. Great that the regions show with the waveform of the PiP's media item. I just wish there was an option to also show the colors of the regions.

2) I've used PiPs as an alternative for freezing at times. This allows me to easily access the source instruments and interestingly save cpu at the same time. Also, these kind of PiPs also act as Ableton-like clips, which can be auditioned, then extracted (to use the instruments involved)... Kinda like cooler, audible Track Template.

- Overall, I believe that if PiPs are truly embraced by the developers and community, and maybe through SWS extensions or something, allow scripters to interact with them (foreground and background), there could be new features and workflows that give the users capabilities that no other DAW can replicate for quite a while.

===========================================

However, I just had a thought... Is is possible to send midi between project and PIP. And the answer is YES.

A tool that I've come to really love linker4 is what I used.

It seems that PiPs' linker4's can control the those of the parent, but not vice versa. Which means that a PiP can indeed modulate parameters of the parent.

But being that they can't both run at the same time, it's like moving sliders in the PiP and then jumping back to the parent to see the changes implemented, instead of the changes being made while playing the parent, since the scripting of the PiP isn't being run, when not active.

- So currently for sending midi data, It may be possible, but it isn't usable.

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Old 03-27-2015, 02:47 PM   #70
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That's some good stuff there Ozman and glad you love this feature as much as some of us here!

Even today they saved my life as I had an advert to do that had a 60, 30, 15, 10 and 5.

Now that can normally be a nightmare but I managed to save a lot of time by putting each scene (including the crazy "graphical idents") into their own PIPS (complete with the video inside the PIP as these don't get rendered out thankfully.)

What this means is that as long as I put markers in the scenes (so I can have pre and post scene sound for crossfades) I get to create the sound for the scene and then for the other videos sizes I can simply copy them across and making a required change to one, effects all of them which is great.

It's so much faster as it keeps all the complex edits neatly inside the PIP (like a folder) so you can work much faster and not worrying about automation etc being copied over.

The other great thing is you can add EQ and effects to these PIPs on the item so they can be mixed for what each of these advert lengths need. They can even be stretched and pitched to fit too without affecting the other adverts. I even use "render to new item" to try out variations in the main project but also folder up different options inside the PIP too for quickly testing stuff.

It's awesome!

Please devs, finsh them off!
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Old 04-08-2015, 06:33 PM   #71
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Default I will buy Reaper when PIP gets its act together.

I will buy Reaper when PIP gets its act together.
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Old 04-08-2015, 07:01 PM   #72
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Looks like a pip with changes in its master playrate (static or with envelope) doesn't render the playrate change... I am almost sure this used to previously work.
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Old 04-09-2015, 08:17 AM   #73
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+1 for PiP! musicbynumbers' use case is mine also although flakiness has kept me from using it as much as I'd like.

and +1 for project setting inheritance (maybe select template for PiP also?)

rendering the PiP can be cumbersome - what about an indication that the underlying project has been changed and a button to rerender?

And disk should be used instead of RAM always I would think...

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Old 04-09-2015, 10:01 AM   #74
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Quote:
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+1 for PiP! musicbynumbers' use case is mine also although flakiness has kept me from using it as much as I'd like.

And disk should be used instead of RAM always I would think...
Glad to have more people wanting this.

The only issue with having disk always is that it's much slower for live editing which you can do with pips by right clicking a tab and setting reaper to run background tabs.

This way it's basically like a proper folder system in other daws but you can't see both at once (which is why an option to open pips in a dock able arrange window would be awesome)

Rendering to disk rather than ram could be done with an item button where it has 3 States.

1. Render to ram (needed for near real-time Previews in the main project)

2. Render to disk (great for systems with less ram or fast drives)

3. Freeze to disk (this one is crucial and allows reaper to simply treat it as an audio file stored in the normal set folder until you set it back to either ram or disk render.)

That's what I'm thinking so far but if there's a better way, post it. We need all the good ideas we can.
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Old 04-09-2015, 10:02 AM   #75
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Quote:
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Looks like a pip with changes in its master playrate (static or with envelope) doesn't render the playrate change... I am almost sure this used to previously work.
Have you tried doing something small to trigger the render like change an item length and then check the main project.

I find certain things don't trigger a render.
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Old 04-09-2015, 10:57 AM   #76
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Have you tried doing something small to trigger the render like change an item length and then check the main project.

I find certain things don't trigger a render.
Unfortunately yeah...Doing other changes in the subproject do cause a render to happen and the pip in the other project is updated. But the master playrate changes are never included. (Tested this on OS-X, by the way, but I doubt it would be a bug specific to the OS-X build.)
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Old 04-09-2015, 11:39 AM   #77
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I'll try and test in PC then when I get a sec but as you mention.. Probably the same result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
Unfortunately yeah...Doing other changes in the subproject do cause a render to happen and the pip in the other project is updated. But the master playrate changes are never included. (Tested this on OS-X, by the way, but I doubt it would be a bug specific to the OS-X build.)
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Old 11-04-2015, 02:30 AM   #78
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The idea of PIP is growing on me. Usually I would use a stem recorder for that but this seems more convenient because assets are connected to their source. This seems brilliant fir media composers like myself.

Should there be a new feature request to bring it to the devs attention again?
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Old 11-04-2015, 02:44 AM   #79
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Glad you feel that way!

I think the devs definitely have an understanding of what needs doing to it still and will get around to it at some point.

I did a list of some of the things that are missing in a post above (post 62) and they don't seem that hard to implement (but maybe they are).

The devs don't like to commit to stuff in posts so at some point they will just start adding to and fixing it in a new pre.

Anyone who loves them though should definitely let them know here

They are essential to my daily work flow now and a few tweaks would make me happy and most of the sound designers I know who have switched to reaper because of PIPs and other media orientated features.
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Old 11-04-2015, 01:37 PM   #80
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PiP sounds amazing and I would love all over it.
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