Drum Sound

[Openurlife]

Hey everyone,
This is my first time posting here. I've only been using Reaper for a few months. I've been recording drums. I watched tons of videos on how to set up mics etc. and I think I got a pretty decent sound for the room I'm working in (a converted garage) with 7 mics. I'm using the Pyle Pro drum mics (the cheapies on amazon). I would like to get some opinions on the drum sound I got. I did play around with the EQ's to get it to sound a little better but I want to touch up the snare a little more and make it a little deeper sounding. Unfortunately in this recording one of the snares was broken so you might here a faint *boing* sound haha and I also noticed that one of the lugs completely broken and the skin isn't tightened completely around so I'm not getting the best sound out of the snare at all. It's a Pearl Reference snare, Pearl is sending me replacement lugs soon.

Here is a snippet of something I recorded. My friend and I are recording hard rock/power metal to give you an idea at what kind of sound I want to try to achieve with fixing up the drum sound with eq's etc. I don't want to use plug ins.

I'm basically just looking for opinions/feedback.

Here's Drums with FX off.
https://we.tl/mMCszNeXTN

Here's Drums with FX that I tried playing around.
https://we.tl/thP7zDKNMS

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Openurlife

Hey everyone,
This is my first time posting here. I've only been using Reaper for a few months. I've been recording drums. I watched tons of videos on how to set up mics etc. and I think I got a pretty decent sound for the room I'm working in (a converted garage) with 7 mics. I'm using the Pyle Pro drum mics (the cheapies on amazon). I would like to get some opinions on the drum sound I got. I did play around with the EQ's to get it to sound a little better but I want to touch up the snare a little more and make it a little deeper sounding. Unfortunately in this recording one of the snares was broken so you might here a faint *boing* sound haha and I also noticed that one of the lugs completely broken and the skin isn't tightened completely around so I'm not getting the best sound out of the snare at all. It's a Pearl Reference snare, Pearl is sending me replacement lugs soon.

Here is a snippet of something I recorded. My friend and I are recording hard rock/power metal to give you an idea at what kind of sound I want to try to achieve with fixing up the drum sound with eq's etc. I don't want to use plug ins.

I'm basically just looking for opinions/feedback.

Here's Drums with FX off.
https://we.tl/mMCszNeXTN

Here's Drums with FX that I tried playing around.
https://we.tl/thP7zDKNMS

Hi Openurlife, and welcome to the forum.

I DLed your mp3s and gave a listen. The cut with no FX is pretty muddy sounding. The cut with FX is much better.

If you want critique, I think the drums are very narrow sounding and lack clearness on the cymbals. How have you got your overheads setup? Are they in stereo? If in stereo, where did you place them.

Did you record the mics on individual tracks, or did you mix them in real time all down to two tracks stereo?

If you have them on separate tracks, then try to use your overheads a little more and also brighten them up some.

Have you done any soundproofing in that garage? Is it a cement floor? These are also important factors.

Hope that helps some.

[Openurlife]

Thanks for writing back!
I have 2 overheads a left and right. I believe everything is in mono. All the mics are individual tracks. There's really no sound proofing but I payed a rug down on the whole garage floor. The room itself doesn't have any echo at all.

[dug dog]

Welcome to the forum.

You've asked for opinions, so I'll chime in. Of course, my opinion is probably worth exactly what you're paying for it and, as always, it's a matter of personal taste!

I think you've done a good job capturing the kit but would agree with Tod that the overheads are pretty narrow. Try panning them further left and right.

I'm not metal guy, but I like your processed kick sound. I would be happy with that for MY tastes but I don't know if there's enough click there for modern metal or not. It's pretty much industry standard (as I understand it) to replace or enhance kick sounds with samples.

If you're not gonna replace with samples, then I DO know that some engineers take great pains to get that click in the original recording. Plastic beaters and a couple other tricks. (Check out the guy at Spectre Sound Studios for details.)

The snare sound doesn't do it for me. I'm not down with the reverb on it. If it works for you, then great, but I actually prefer the untreated snare sound. Maybe less verb or a different one?

Also, if you take your EQ and boost the frequencies between 550 and 650 ish Hz, you'll hear some weird stuff going on there that I would definitely be removing.

Have fun.

[Lokasenna]

It sounds like the recorded tones are decent, just needs a bit of mix work. My thoughts:

1. Why do you have the drums in mono?

If you have a pair of overhead mics, they should be out to the sides - personally I like them around 70% to leave room for the guitars. Likewise, the hi-hat, ride, and tom tracks should be panned appropriately for where they are in the kit - once you pan the OHs, you can use that as a rough guide for where to pan the spot mics.

2. That reverb doesn't work. It's really metallic and sounds more like a slapback delay. Try something like epicVerb (awesome free VST, Google it)and fiddle with the presets - they're all pretty good. I've also really been enjoying u-He's Protoverb (also free) lately - it's a little darker, so it doesn't clutter up the mix as much as some.

3. Sounds to me like the kick and snare need a bit of automation or compression to even out the performance - there are a few hits here and there that are quieter than they should be.

4. The snare rings a little too much for my taste; there's probably a couple of narrow EQ bands between 500 and 2kHz you could hunt for to kill that.

5. The cymbals need more "oomph" IMO. If you're cutting the lows, consider easing up. Or maybe just bring the overhead mics up a tad.

One concept I've found really helpful is "get as much as you can from the room/OH mics, and then use the spot mics to fill in what's missing".

[Openurlife]

Haha any advice is good advice. I did take the advice from Tod and moved the overheads actually more over the kit aimed towards the snare which I think opened the whole kit up more. I recorded something but stupid me I forgot to adjust the volume on the interface so the cymbals are a little bit too loud.
The snare is the only one I have. It sounds great while i'm playing but for some reason I'm not getting that same sound on the recording. I have mics on top and bottom. Maybe it's just a mic placement issue? I'll upload a sample of the new recording later.

[Openurlife]

Here is another recording I did today, Its a different song. I moved the overheads more inside the kit and pointed them towards the snare. Does this sound any better? There are no EQs done this is just a straight recording.

https://we.tl/YRmdGDfylM

[Lokasenna]

Sounds pretty good for not having any FX yet, IMO.

[Openurlife]

so better than the previous one?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Openurlife

so better than the previous one?

Yes, much better.

It's still a little tight, don't be afraid to set your overheads full left and right. It's a stereo track and is meant to be panned that way, at least that's my perspective of it.

Do you have individual mics on the cymbals as well as the kik, snare, and toms. You said you used 7 mics, so probably not.

One concept I've found really helpful is "get as much as you can from the room/OH mics, and then use the spot mics to fill in what's missing".

This is good advice from Lokasenna, and it's the way I approach it too.

[dug dog]

Originally Posted by Tod

Yes, much better.

It's still a little tight, don't be afraid to set your overheads full left and right. It's a stereo track and is meant to be panned that way, at least that's my perspective of it.

Agreed.

[Openurlife]

Lokasenna, Sorry I didn't even see your first comment. I was actually wrong, the drums aren't in mono they are stereo. The Toms are panned as if your behind the kit. The overheads I had panned on another template but when I made this new one I forgot to pan them so I fixed that. The kick I thought sounded pretty good. I just bought a new skin for it. I have a pillow inside but I think I'm gonna use something else that doesn't kill the sound so much. I also have another kick drum which I think I'm going to use since it has deeper tone to it. I don't know what is up with the snare. I might have to buy another skin. I just bought the one this was recorded with but it just has way too much echo. I tried to dampen it some with tape but I'm not getting the sound I'm looking for, but it actually sounds better in person than it does when recorded so I don't know what the issue could be. I'll try repositioning the mic.

I'll look for the epicverb and protoverb VST's.
Thanks for the advice. Wish I would have seen it sooner. Don't want to seem like I avoided you haha

[Openurlife]

Originally Posted by Tod

Do you have individual mics on the cymbals as well as the kik, snare, and toms. You said you used 7 mics, so probably not.

No I have 2 Mics for the overheads, 2 for the snare top and bottom, 3 Tom mics and 1 kick that's inside.

I'll have to take a picture of how I have everything if that even helps

[Lokasenna]

I legitimately thought it was all in mono when I listened to it last night. I just looked at the second file in Reaper and there's virtually no stereo content. Either there's cancellation going on, or you've only got things panned out to like 10%, or your overheads/room are just way too low.

The snare itself sounds fine to me - ringing like that is fairly typical, and easily EQed out. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

If you wanted to put up the individual tracks I'd be happy to have a go when I get a chance.

[Openurlife]

Yea I didn't have those overheads panned at all. I fixed all of that now. I panned the overheads around 70% like you suggested. Also panned the toms differently. I had them panned like your behind the kid but with the way these overheads are now it sounds better as if your in front of the kit. Also I have 2 tom that don't have mics. I really don't use them that often and I wasn't at all since the overheads weren't picking them up that well but now that I moved the overheads they came out really clear. They aren't in this snippet, but anyway here is what I have now. Oh and this is after I changed kick drums. The one in this recording is deeper sounding. So theres one with FX the other is with a little EQ I did and some other stuff I added to the kick drum to give it a little more punch and then a sample with the guitars. I'm pretty happy with how it sounds now, but again if you hear something not right or could be improved let me know.

Drums with NO FX
https://we.tl/oOEM6xtppn

Drums with FX
https://we.tl/lw4KHD6zya

Drums with FX and Guitars
https://we.tl/5TlBdvVqpg

[Lokasenna]

Big improvement. My thoughts this time:

- The kick and snare would both benefit from a little transient "pop"; either a transient designer with the attack turned up just a little, or a compressor with the attack around (guessing) 50ms, compressing a few db, and then turning the track up to compensate.

- Both might also cut through better with a high shelf boost. Just for fun, try 3db at 10kHz on each of them and see how that sounds.

- This one is entirely a matter of taste, but my brain wants to hear some reverb on there. Try creating a reverb bus to use for the whole mix, and add sends to it directly from the kick, snare, and tom tracks, as well as the guitar bus. Try a nice hall preset, 100% wet, add an EQ afterward with a high-pass at 200, a low-pass at 5k, and a healthy scoop around 1k, then slowly bring up the reverb track's fader until the mix starts to sound a little bit bigger. Be careful not to overdo it.

- If you're planning to add a bass guitar, you'll probably need to clean up the low end on the kick so that they aren't fighting for space.

[Openurlife]

Cool! I'll give that a try. I still have to look for those VST's you told me about. Yea we're adding bass as well. Once he gets it done I'll see how it sounds with everything together. I have a track with bass on it but that was with the other drum sound so it'll all sound really different now.

I'm feeling better about the snare sound now. I changed how I had the tape on it to dampen some of the ringing. Ringing drives me nuts haha!

I keep trying to post pictures of how I have things set up but I keep getting errors, oh well...

Once I get those VST's and play around with them I'll post what I did. I really appreciate all the help!

[Lokasenna]

Incidentally, I would highly recommend buying a copy of this: http://www.systematicproductions.com/mixing-guide.htm - it's cheap, and very worth it.

[Openurlife]

I just downloaded those Vst's you suggested. I'll play around with them during the week. $25 isn't bad for that book either. =) Thanks!

[Openurlife]

Ok....how do I add those plug ins to reaper without messing up the ones I have? I tried watching a video but it made no sense.

[Lokasenna]

Look in Options | Preferences | Plugins | VST. The top of the window lets you specify a path where Reaper can find your VST plugins. If there's a folder listed there, you can put the included .dll files in it, or use the Add button to find wherever you put them.

Reaper will automatically scan every folder in that list on startup, or you can refresh the list yourself by pressing F5 while in the FX Browser. Then you should just have to search for them by name.

[Openurlife]

Yea I was able to get the EpicVerb working with no problem but the one from Uhe says error. Something about it needing permission.

[Lokasenna]

Hmm... make sure you're running Reaper in Administrator mode would be my first guess.

[Openurlife]

I think its a windows 10 issue. I went to the site and it says to send them an email so I did. Hopefully I'll get it to work.

[insub]

I only listened to the No FX, because you really want to get the sound 95% of the way at the source rather than try to fix it in the mix.

OPINIONS:
To me, the kick is too muddy and lacking definition. The hi-hat is getting a bit lost and the snare is a little thin sounding. Some of this might be by design, as metal is not my preferred genre. To be honest, I don't like that snare sound at all, but you've already addressed that there needs to be some repair/other work to the snare. Keep in mind, I'm not a drummer. I just handle the recording for our band and the last one I was in.

Here is the mic technique that I've been using:
Overheads: Kind of a hybrid between Recorderman and Glyn Johns. Recorderman didn't quite get the stereo width I prefer and Glyn Johns let in too much room sound for the home-recording spaces that I'm in. So, I basically used the Recorderman with the floor tom side OH mic down lower, closer to the floor tom. This positioning made it impossible to get equal distances for both snare and kick so I chose the kick to have priority. The two overheads are exactly equidistant from the kick beater strike point.

That Overhead setup gets plenty of top snare sound. So, I only used one mic to supplement the snare. I placed it on the bottom side.

That frees up a mic to place on the hi-hat. Which I want to be more prominent than the cymbals which is not what you get from the overheads.

You have 3 tom mics. You can either position them where they pick up more than one tom each, or, what I'd probably do, is place them on the 3 largest toms. You're going to want to supplement the bass tone of those toms. The smaller toms should be picked up pretty clearly by the overheads. We had 3 tom mics too, but only 3 toms. So, each tom got its own mic.

I placed the kick mic inside the drum about 2" away from the beater skin and 2" below where the beater stikes the skin. That gave me the lots of isolation from the rest of the kit and plenty of snap. My new drummer prefers a kick resonant head with no mic hole. So, I'm not sure how I'm going to mic his kick yet.

These mic placements worked well for rock. They might not help you at all for the sound you're after. Just thought I'd share because it took me a lot of experimenting to get to this setup.

If possible, you could place a single large diaphragm condenser mic either over your head or out in the room at listener position to get a mono reference of the entire kit to compare your multimic recording against. Currently, I have a single LDC set up to capture the drums for rehearsal and it sounds surprisingly good. I have it set up in front of the kit, about 6.5' high and directly above the far edge of the kick drum, slightly off-center toward the snare (about equidistant between cymbals), and pointing downward (cardiod pickup pattern). I just threw that mic up to capture something, and when we listened back the first time we were really amazed. A little compression and HF reduction with EQ and it sounded full and almost professional with just one mic!

Side note: You might be able to reduce some ringing by tuning all lugs evenly and slightly high. Then detuning a single lug down to get the pitch that you want.

[Openurlife]

Hey Insub,
Sorry I Didn't see your reply sooner I've been busy with other things so I haven't had a chance to come on here. Did you listen to my last post where I moved the mics, cause my friend and I were actually pretty happy with that sound I got. By mistake I recorded something yesterday with just the overheads and I was thinking I might just use the overheads and the kick mic cause it sounded really good. I might have to mic the snare just to make it sound a little more tighter but otherwise I was shocked by the sound alone from the overheads.

Do you have a sample of drums you recorded so I can hear? also what kind of room are you working with?

Also the only way to really get rid of snare ringing is either tape, moon gel, or a thicker snare head. The head I had previously was perfect, but when I went to the store to buy another one they didn't have it so I bought one I thought would sound pretty similar. It doesn't but it's fine. I actually used some more tape after that last recording and it sounds better now. I just wish I could get a really fat sound out of it.

Everyone has different opinions on drum sound and I appreciate everyone's input. I listen to other stuff besides metal and I'm not looking to mimic other metal drummers sounds. If a drum sound, sounds good it should fit with any style of music really. Nowadays tho so many bands use plug ins or triggers and it takes the realism away and it all sounds too mechanic to me so I want to get as good of a realistic sound as I can with minimal tweaking.