Old 02-11-2017, 03:48 AM   #1
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Default Speculations on reverb

I've been experimenting a lot with revert lately (as in the past 3 years).

I'm going firstly for good sounding, and secondly for realism (realism is important, but goodness moreso). Here's something I'm working on. Does it sound real?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fat9vslgq3...%20v2.mp3?dl=0
slightly different version.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r9t4qdzg6p...Part1.mp3?dl=0


I'm wondering what your thoughts are on

1 - having separate ER and LR sends.
2 - Sending the ER send to the LR.
3 - EQing ER, and LR
4 - Should ER be 100% wet?
5 - Spacial positioning within a verb. Altiverb has it's own positioner, and it's recommended to only use it 100% wet? What is the consequence of being less than 100% wet? I was thinking to send a mono signal to the positioner, but have my own separately mixed stereo dry-signal. Separate sends for ER, LR, and EQs. Using adaptiverb only to filter unharmic sounds before the LR.

I jusst got Altiverb, and I should say... it's much better than the algos I've been using... maybe I just don't know how to use them.
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Old 02-11-2017, 05:34 AM   #2
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Sounded "fairly real", except with a hole in the middle; sounded like an X/Y combination split out with a Haas trick for extra width.

The impression is about a 15' square room with carpet and drapes. Mixed up size proportions, though, the pizzicato bits seemed too loud and with a different ER. Bass extension on the double bass was interesting, maybe too woofy around 98-180hz?
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Old 02-11-2017, 05:56 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
Sounded "fairly real", except with a hole in the middle; sounded like an X/Y combination split out with a Haas trick for extra width.

The impression is about a 15' square room with carpet and drapes. Mixed up size proportions, though, the pizzicato bits seemed too loud and with a different ER. Bass extension on the double bass was interesting, maybe too woofy around 98-180hz?
Wow, thanks!!

I've done everything you mentioned, except I kept the same ER. I'm using 'Teldex ER' for everything, but I'm using different 'distances', e.g. a 5m, 7m, 10m, and 19m. Some are mono and some stereo. Should I use the same exact ER for everything and just place them differently?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ro7q8wnyoj...%20v3.mp3?dl=0

Now what do you think?

Edit, here is it with all 7m ERs

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n14ona9k0z...%20v4.mp3?dl=0

And with a Tail
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1l17fdnvoc...0Tail.mp3?dl=0

I think it does sound better. So now what are your thoughts? You really helped me by pointing those things out!
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Old 02-12-2017, 07:32 AM   #4
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Here it is with only the tree mics, almost no mixing. Does it sound better?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pvmipyszj6...trees.mp3?dl=0

And here are close-mics with verb plus Tree mics without verb together.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4gzc75jp0n...close.mp3?dl=0

but I haven't "placed" the close mics in the same areas as they're naturally positioned through the trees. Maybe that's a problem.
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Old 02-12-2017, 08:35 AM   #5
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Can't really judge that well with unnatural instruments.
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:23 AM   #6
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I prefer your V2, but with less low end on the reverb, and the level maybe dialed back 3 db.

On V3 (I think) it sounds like the bowing is overdone, I don't know why that one sounds different?

Without trees version is a nice "baseline typical" orchestral sound. But for my tastes (and why this thread is interesting to me) for a quartet effect I'd prefer a smaller room.

Overall the impression I get is that there are an unrealistic amount of basses and they're in a different room/theatre. BUT, I like the bloom on them, so there's that.

I would say go for the V2/1 process, bring the room sound down a bit, EQ the send from the basses (if you can do separate outs) to thin out the low end some, watch where the breakpoint is on the velocity for the "too much rosin" effect, and maybe try adding a simple ER-range single tap delay with a high pass around 700 to add a "in front of you" effect.


What VSTi are you using? What/where are Teldex IRs?
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:27 AM   #7
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I'd disable the vibrato on the basses and not worry about trying to achieve an "ensemble vibrato attack" effect, that kind of thing greatly annoys me on non-real strings.

Also are you using DSK strings? There is a descending part that has an aliased sound that bugs me about that particular VSTi (and a lot of sampled strings), .... I'll stop, sorry.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:09 AM   #8
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Thanks!

So I'm using a combo of Orchestral Tools First-Chair and Embertone (only using the Embertone Viola and Bass here, which come in at the end).

Maybe I should get rid of the Embertone... maybe they're not blending. But I wanted to have more instruments / lines.

I'm using Altiverb and Adaptiverb (I often use B2, but not on this one). I only use Adaptiverb to get rid of that bow-noise before the Tail, but I'm really not sure about it...

So are you suggesting I use only a single ER on it's own send, rather than having an individual ER for each instrument? That would really simplify things. Then I would pan from within Kontakt, and not use the Altiverb 'Positioner'.

I keep listening to the room mics, and they sounds really good... it's only that

1 - I like the small room sound
2 - I'm worried about the 'baked in verb effect' when I'm doing a lot of CC11 on legato lines. Maybe the tiniest bit of tail could fix that? I'm afraid that putting reverb on top of a room signal will make things way too wet. Maybe I'm wrong about that?
3 - Mixing in other libraries, they won't fit as well as using close-mics and verb.
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:39 AM   #9
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I was thinking about the delay to try to tie together the differences in the way the samples were made. For example the basses sound like they're on stage in a theater, the violins in a chamber.

It's easy to make everything sound distant together, but to sound like they're "in a room in front of you" is the trick IMO. You've got to commit to the intention of the longest reverb sound on the samples being used IMO.

$.10
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
I was thinking about the delay to try to tie together the differences in the way the samples were made. For example the basses sound like they're on stage in a theater, the violins in a chamber.

It's easy to make everything sound distant together, but to sound like they're "in a room in front of you" is the trick IMO. You've got to commit to the intention of the longest reverb sound on the samples being used IMO.

$.10
Ok, let me try to understand you.

Making all the instruments sound far away and realisticly-in-space is easy.

Making all instruments sound relatively close in a small room realistically is hard.

Rather than using a verb, I should just try a single delay of 2ms or so on the bass, to get it in the same room (because it's Embertone, so very dry), yes?

Anyhow, here's close and wet mics, with simply a short reverb at the end on the master track, and positioned realistically.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9gb2luavx2...trees.mp3?dl=0

but I'll now try what you suggest above.

A highpass of 700 is pretty high; won't it sound thin? What about a low-pass? I'm also getting a scrunchy paper sound... it seems to be in the high frequencies of the bass, so when I high pass, it becomes more prominent, and then the reverb increases it.

Edit - I've gotten rid of it using adaptiverb... slightly less natural, but maybe necessary here.

Here's the result. Only dry mics, ER on the Embertone instruments (being filtered with adaptiverb to get rid of noise in the ER verb), and a light tail on the master track. I used only B2 for reverbs here.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v30s6je804...aster.mp3?dl=0
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:11 AM   #11
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Here's only close mics (OT has 2 close mics, one is slightly closer, and has slightly more bow-noise), with a send to a highpassed ER using B2. Delays at 2, 4, 5, 7, and 9 ms. Maybe that's too many delays (less than yesterday; I was getting that metalic ring from too much ER).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fybrpap5hj...%20ER.mp3?dl=0

Maybe this with a bit of tail would sound best...

Or maybe I should only use 2 close mic. I've panned the 2 close mics slightly apart (e.g. for violins, 1 is further left than the other).

Sorry... now I think this is best,

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iysoj8evkt...R%202.mp3?dl=0



This is the ER, otherwise the same as above. I added a "time" to this verb, so it's not just an ER, but has a tiny tail.
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