I'm looking for an affordable, but not labor intensive, means of storing the projects that I'm not working on, am done with, want to save indefinitely.
I've got tons of uncompleted ideas that are using up valuable disk space and I want to move it somewhere where I can store it and access it when I decide to work on it.
Looking for ideas.
SSD Drive(s)?
Etc
__________________
Reaper 6.13/64 - Audient iD14 Interface-Mac Mini 2.3Ghz i7, 16GB RAM 256GB SSD (OS,apps) & 1TB HDD (data), OS X 10.14.6 - Macbook Pro 2.2Ghz i7, 4 GB RAM, 256GB SSD (OS,apps) OS X 10.13.6 - Presonus Faderport
I'm looking for an affordable, but not labor intensive, means of storing the projects that I'm not working on, am done with, want to save indefinitely.
There's this reaaally ancient technology some cavefolks used to use- dvd disks.
Cheap as chips and quite a few gig per disk--reaper has some great compression tools>batch convertor>drag/drop.
Gmail gives about 15gig free-dropbox/microsoft/mac cloud spaces-- there's tons of 'free' online storage services,if disk storage is a problem.
Mobile phone storage/terabyte usb3 flash drives,bluray recorders,older zip drives..
Depends on how much quality you want to retain-a lot of compression can happen with wavpack/opus/zip files.
I'm looking for an affordable, but not labor intensive, means of storing the projects that I'm not working on, am done with, want to save indefinitely.
I've got tons of uncompleted ideas that are using up valuable disk space and I want to move it somewhere where I can store it and access it when I decide to work on it.
Looking for ideas.
SSD Drive(s)?
Etc
You already have a dozen TB of HDD storage for projects you actually plan on getting back to and are looking to keep around the "maybe" projects that would otherwise push you to buying more HDD pairs (primary and backup)?
Go to bluray discs for that.
They're bit for bit pretty much the same price as DVDr's now. The single layer ones hold 25GB so you don't have to fuss around splitting projects into 4GB chunks (and thus blowing that off and just throwing it away). Still FLAC your WAV files to cut them down to just over 50% of the original size.
If it's actually something important, burn 2 copies and keep one offsite.
If you don't have HDD space already, start there. A decent 4TB HDD is around $200. Think I saw a Segate for around $100, so you could live on the edge and save a little on the 2nd one for a backup drive if you had to. At least do that. Don't ever start using a drive with no backup for it.
Don't ever rely on cloud storage for backup! Use it for convenient file sharing.
You already have a dozen TB of HDD storage for projects you actually plan on getting back to and are looking to keep around the "maybe" projects that would otherwise push you to buying more HDD pairs (primary and backup)?
I've got a 1 TB HDD. There is room to use it as archive/storage. Then I could use DVD or blueray as the second as needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by serr
Go to bluray discs for that.
They're bit for bit pretty much the same price as DVDr's now. The single layer ones hold 25GB so you don't have to fuss around splitting projects into 4GB chunks (and thus blowing that off and just throwing it away). Still FLAC your WAV files to cut them down to just over 50% of the original size.
If it's actually something important, burn 2 copies and keep one offsite.
Sounds like a good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by serr
If you don't have HDD space already, start there. A decent 4TB HDD is around $200. Think I saw a Segate for around $100, so you could live on the edge and save a little on the 2nd one for a backup drive if you had to. At least do that. Don't ever start using a drive with no backup for it.
Don't ever rely on cloud storage for backup! Use it for convenient file sharing.
I do have the 1 TB in my Mac-Mini and I have an external drive that I use for backup as well.
Any recommendations on Blu Ray burners?
__________________
Reaper 6.13/64 - Audient iD14 Interface-Mac Mini 2.3Ghz i7, 16GB RAM 256GB SSD (OS,apps) & 1TB HDD (data), OS X 10.14.6 - Macbook Pro 2.2Ghz i7, 4 GB RAM, 256GB SSD (OS,apps) OS X 10.13.6 - Presonus Faderport
I recently bought a 4TB hard disk drive to store finished projects.
When a project is finished I do this:
1. Clean up project. Glue takes. Put tracks in appropriate folders. Color-code tracks.
2. Render stems and add back into project.
3. File > Directory cleanup.
4. Cut and paste the project folder to the new HDD.
Edit: For projects you are working on, you should store them on an SSD - for quick access.
1 TB in my Mac-Mini and I have an external drive that I use for backup as well.
Any recommendations on Blu Ray burners?
Which Mac Mini?
The one with an optical drive? Or the one with two 2.5" drive slots?
Those machines use 2.5" hard drives BTW. That limits you to 1TB size for 7200rom HDD's like a laptop.
Either upgrading the Mac a bit is going to make sense or maybe it's time to buy a pair of externals (primary + it's backup).
If it's the DVD drive + HDD version, I might upgrade to a SSD internally and then go for a pair of external 2TB or 4TB drives.
If it's the dual 2.5" machine, I'd put a 240GB or 480GB SSD inside with the 1TB HDD. Keep that 1TB backup drive for that. Then go after a pair of externals if you still need more space. An external bluray burner is a choice for the system too.
If this is for stuff you really do intend to get back to, maybe hard drive system upgrades would make more sense. If you don't have a SSD for OS/apps/high performance workspace right now, this would be a great time to justify that into the equation. It would feel like a new computer.
Edit:
Haha, just looked at your specs right there in front of me.
Mac is set up.
I'd get into a pair of externals if you need more space.
Is part of your used space a media archive? (eg. albums, movies, etc)
If so, move that to a pair of externals first.
Something you might consider is the so called bit rod. Ars Technica had interesting articles about it and I recommend using some kind of "robust" form of archiving. I got bit rod now in a couple of instances and would have been screwed if I hadn't made a backup in a way before.
The one with an optical drive? Or the one with two 2.5" drive slots?
Two 2.5" drive slots
Quote:
Originally Posted by serr
Those machines use 2.5" hard drives BTW. That limits you to 1TB size for 7200rom HDD's like a laptop.
Either upgrading the Mac a bit is going to make sense or maybe it's time to buy a pair of externals (primary + it's backup).
If it's the DVD drive + HDD version, I might upgrade to a SSD internally and then go for a pair of external 2TB or 4TB drives.
If it's the dual 2.5" machine, I'd put a 240GB or 480GB SSD inside with the 1TB HDD. Keep that 1TB backup drive for that. Then go after a pair of externals if you still need more space. An external bluray burner is a choice for the system too.
I currently have a 240GB SSD and a 1TB HDD in it.
SSD for OS/apps & HDD for Data
Quote:
Originally Posted by serr
If this is for stuff you really do intend to get back to, maybe hard drive system upgrades would make more sense. If you don't have a SSD for OS/apps/high performance workspace right now, this would be a great time to justify that into the equation. It would feel like a new computer.
Edit:
Haha, just looked at your specs right there in front of me.
Mac is set up.
Yep, I sought and took your advice when I bought it. ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serr
I'd get into a pair of externals if you need more space.
Is part of your used space a media archive? (eg. albums, movies, etc)
If so, move that to a pair of externals first.
Most of that stuff is on the HDD. I have 1 external that I use to back up the SSD and HDD. I actually back up the SSD to the HDD drive as well.
I do have a few things taking up space on the SSD like pictures and Dropbox.
So you don't thin I should go the Blu Ray route and instead get more externals?
__________________
Reaper 6.13/64 - Audient iD14 Interface-Mac Mini 2.3Ghz i7, 16GB RAM 256GB SSD (OS,apps) & 1TB HDD (data), OS X 10.14.6 - Macbook Pro 2.2Ghz i7, 4 GB RAM, 256GB SSD (OS,apps) OS X 10.13.6 - Presonus Faderport
As mentioned above, DVDs are going to be the cheapest and probably most durable, as long as they're stored well.
External HDDs are a good option; Newegg currently has a 5TB on sale for 140 although it appears the regular price is only 150: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...-501-_-Product
Extra savings w/ promo code EMCRCBE55, ends 2/19
Doesn't get great ratings so ymmv.
SSDs are for speed and are not cost effective for archiving.
You could also consider flash drives. One possibility would be to use each flash drive for different themes (slow songs, nature, fast songs, acoustic, etc.)I'm skeptical of long term storage on DVDs because of eventual deterioration due to microbes. Cloud storage is where I have a bunch of my archives, but if you want to keep a physical copy, you might consider flash drives. Good luck.
So you don't thin I should go the Blu Ray route and instead get more externals?
It depends. There would be the initial expense of $200-ish. Something isn't saved unless there are minimum 2 copies (some would insist 3) so... burning two bluray discs.
If these are personal projects and adding 2 or 4 TB of backed up space to the system would serve you well for the next few years or more, then that probably makes the most sense.
If you have clients coming through and don't really want their old projects taking up space, then blueray makes sense.
Blurays are about a buck a piece, so about $50/TB + your time (that's $100 for 2 copies then). So... neck and neck with HDD's at present. If that helps.
It's not nothing but it's pretty cheap to have outrageous drive space these days.
External HDDs are a good option; Newegg currently has a 5TB on sale for 140 although it appears the regular price is only 150: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...-501-_-Product
Extra savings w/ promo code EMCRCBE55, ends 2/19
Doesn't get great ratings so ymmv.
SSDs are for speed and are not cost effective for archiving.
Yeah-maybe external drives is better final option.
Can be stored en masse,shielded casings.
1 bonus with cloud and some other types of storage is recordings don't get capped at 44.1//48Khz,like some disks or recorders do.
There's not many absolute 'fail safe options' -just many options+pricings.
(Some people can store and retrieve huge amounts of data using just their brain!! >but that's not suitable here)
They all deteriorate over time..become obsolete in many cases. ho humz.
(Some people can store and retrieve huge amounts of data using just their brain!! >but that's not suitable here)
They all deteriorate over time..become obsolete in many cases. ho humz.
Well, in a way you've come full circle. Because of the way we can remember sequential information in musical form, learning songs was the earliest technology for recording information and history.
Serr, What do you use to archive sessions you want to keep indefinitely?
I keep my collection of media, personal projects, system images, technical stuff, etc on hard drives. Everything is backed up to backup drives nightly.
There are 3rd copies of some things. Some of the technical stuff, images, installers, etc also lives on the 1TB HDD in my laptop.
A lot of my music archive has offsite copies. A couple friends where we're all each others offsite backup.
I archive client sessions on bluray now (DVD before that). Two copies for important stuff and one of those lives offsite.
Bare minimum for being more or less on top of it in other words.
My music drive is a 2TB with only 100GB left at present. Going to upgrade to a 4TB very soon. I've got under 1TB of personal projects I'm keeping around on a drive. Movie archive is only 500GB or so.
Or maybe I'll put together a more formal NAS system next? Not sure.
The way to go for permanent storage is M-Disc with a Blu-Ray writer (M-Disc compatible -check before purchasing).
M-Discs are also more expensive media but worth it for peace of mind.
Estimated Lifespan
Magnetic data (tapes) Up to 10 years
Nintendo cartridge 10-20 years
Floppy disk 10-20 years
CDs and DVDs 5-10 unrecorded, 2-5 recorded
Blu-Ray Not certain, probably over 2-5 recorded
Hard disk 3-5 years
Flash storage 5-10 years or more (depends on write cycles)
M-Disc 1,000 years (theoretically)
Quoted:
M-Disc
The M-Disc is an optical media storage disc that is a supposedly “permanent storage solution”. There are claims that it may be able to last up to 1,000 years, even in the face of environmental damage caused by scratching and high temperatures. While the M-Disc is a new format, it can be used with any standard DVD drive to read information, but since the data is engraved into advanced metals, a special M-Disc-ready drive is required to write it. Plus, since this technology is so new, the 1,000 year lifespan is only theoretical so only time will tell how long these advanced discs will really last, though they do have some fairly impressive research backing their theories.
Buy a dock. Buy blank harddisks, preferably in pairs.
Everything else sucks. There are no quality DVD's anymore. All other optical formats could be a big problem if you can't find a drive in ten years or so...
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
The way to go for permanent storage is M-Disc..... 1,000 years (theoretically)
Lol-that's like a giant leap for storage kind >Nintendo cartridge 10-20 years >M-Disc 1,000 years.
Not forgetting the old droper stones- hard to find though now..
I have yet to find the perfect plan but this works for me and my clients.
A copy is just that, a copy.
A back up is at least three copies on separate drives/media.
Avoid large volume drives, 4tb etc.
If it goes down, all eggs are lost.
Apart from monthly back up maintenance, we have adopted the drive by year method.
A new 1tb USB3 HDD drive every new year, backed up between various drives.
YMMV with capacity etc.
Go for named brands and avoid cheaper alternatives.
The only brand that has failed on me is Lacie, twice.
Fascinating thread.
In my experience of life so far, the most durable method of 'archiving' still appears to be magnetic tape.
I still have all my cassettes and VHS tapes and all are still playable even though the newest is over 20 years old. I have no HDDs that have made it past ten years, no 'blank' CDs or DVDs that have made it past ten years. I saw a suggestion that SSDs (and presumably flash drives) are only good until their capacitors blow(?).
History suggests THE most reliable method is to learn to read/write music and get a pen and a score pad.
__________________
"As long as I stay between the sun & my shadow, I guess I'm doing well."
mordis idea of rendering your stems is a good one - if you migrate to a machine that no longer supports one vst or other you would not lose ability to edit other parts...
the comprehensive answer to software changing would be to use snapshots of virtual machines perhaps but that's another story...
I "carry" archive material through the archiving process. I mainly use hard drives now but going back 30 years I have used a range of media, some of which is obsolete. It does not matter if media become obsolete if you carry the archive along as tech changes. In other words I place the archive - including the oldest data - on new media as needed. There is no lossy transfer. As storage gets cheaper and cheaper and larger and larger it is easy to put everything on a few drives.
For example, take "field recordings archive 3" which is 1TB and put on the new "field recordings archive 4" which is 2 TB so that leaves 1TB free for new files. When that fills up put all of it on the next drive which will by then probably be 4TB and so on.
It really does not matter if tech becomes obsolete if you keep upgrading your storage solution
Also tape is not viable long term in the tropics and sub tropics without maintaining a special storage environment - goes moldy if just at home on a bookshelf or in a cupboard
I'm looking for an affordable, but not labor intensive, means of storing the projects that I'm not working on, am done with, want to save indefinitely.
I've got tons of uncompleted ideas that are using up valuable disk space and I want to move it somewhere where I can store it and access it when I decide to work on it.
I guess I need to ask this, are there distinct disadvantages of archiving in the cloud? Beyond physical copies, is it safe to assume that the cloud (Google, Dropbox, Box)employs redundant backup schemes?
The Library of Congress, Presto Center, IASA, et cetera, do not suggest using CD or DVD for archival purposes. That guidance is universal among the preservation and archival organisations.
... so what do they recommend?
__________________ DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
I have two 5TB hard drives. My main drive has all my session work from the last few years with plenty of storage left. I use Carbon Copy Cloner for macOS to mirror the main drive to a secondary drive. CCC will also save deleted and changed files in a seperate folder, as long as there is extra room on the drive.
A year into this system, my main drive went down, but I was able to copy everything back from the secondary drive without losing anything. I bought a new main drive, copied, and continued working.
Neither CD-R, nor DVD-R, Blu-ray are a valid long term storage solution. For near term storage (3 - 5 years) they are fine, as are hard drives.
I was around the first time everyone was archiving to CDR back in 2000, some of those CDs aren't readable now. However, I do have a stack of DVDs I backed up to around that time (2002 ish) that are still readable.
What I have done over the years is to keep 3 copies of my audio on various HDDs, moving them to newer HDDs as I upgraded over time etc. I think what I would do is avoid any medium with the idea 'that copy' will last forever, so I like to keep relatively fresh copies of even older data.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
To restate things: We're not actually archiving, we're maintaining a digital storage system.
Ditto to the above comments. Important stuff is kept on active drives with active backups and new drives get cycled in periodically.
I still have the little voice in the back of my head telling me that offloading from the active drives to a bluray disc to 'get it out of the way' is fine as long as I'm OK with the possibility of never reading those files again! :P
An actual "archive" archiving format for digital data is a worthy discussion. I'm not sure if anyone has anything more solid than wishful thinking at this point.
Funny. When the next civilization starts digging up artifacts from before Trump threw a tantrum and launched the nukes, the vinyl will end up being what survived! ("Funny" might not be the right word there.)
Titanium plates might be good. =)
There's still a disk voyaging through the depths of space right now...
"Materials
The record is constructed of gold-plated copper and is 12 inches (30*cm) in diameter.[2] The record's cover is aluminum and electroplated upon it is an ultra-pure sample of the isotope uranium-238. Uranium-238 has a half-life of 4.468 billion years. It is possible (e.g. via mass-spectrometry) that a civilization that encounters the record will be able to use the ratio of remaining uranium to the other elements to determine the age of the record."
The problem with CDR and DVDR is they essentially use ink which the laser burns holes in, which can degrade over time. If we had the ability to physically stamp CDs like commercial CDs (actual deformations in the plastic instead of ink that breaks down), the would be more archival.
Even if we could do that the problem remains beacuse we always want some copy in the most recent formats for the same reason those 3.5" floppies are of no use without a floppy drive to put them in and a computer that can use it, or the fact my DAT collection is near useless because it is difficult to find working DAT players these days, so even if the medium is archival, the playback system may not be.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
Hard drives are stupidly cheap per megabyte, and store well. If it matters, have at lease three copies of everything on different drives. If it really matters, have four copies on different brands of drive.
Periodically add new drives, and replicate further. Optical media isn't worth the hassle, unless you want to buy really good discs for burying in a time capsule that will be opened in a hundred years or so.
The problem with CDR and DVDR is they essentially use ink which the laser burns holes in, which can degrade over time. If we had the ability to physically stamp CDs like commercial CDs (actual deformations in the plastic instead of ink that breaks down), the would be more archival.
Even if we could do that the problem remains beacuse we always want some copy in the most recent formats for the same reason those 3.5" floppies are of no use without a floppy drive to put them in and a computer that can use it, or the fact my DAT collection is near useless because it is difficult to find working DAT players these days, so even if the medium is archival, the playback system may not be.
Decoding the data 10,000 years from now might be a challenge even if it survives. (Doomsday scenario again.) You can run your fingernail down the groove of an album and hear that it's an analog representation of audio waveforms. (Please don't ever touch an album in that way!)
But what of an endless string of ones and zeros? Especially partial chunks of data?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is anything in that data that illuminates the meaning of the patterns of ones and zeros.
I keep calling this the golden age of audio with perfect bit for bit HD delivery to the consumer but it's build on a house of cards in a way.
PS. Commercial stamped CD's and bluray discs suffer from manufacturing problems. I imagine there are at least a few cases where you can point the finger directly at cheapness (ie. intentionally making broken garbage). Some of it must have been a surprise after best efforts though.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is anything in that data that illuminates the meaning of the patterns of ones and zeros.
You are mostly correct, without prior knowledge of the format, you just see ones and zeros - there is no map as to where what piece of data starts/ends per se in the data itself minus that prior knowledge. But armed with the format/spec, it's as simple as reading it and decoding accordingly. IOW the spec states the sample rate is ~n bytes from the start and ~n bytes long and that the audio starts at offset X and so on.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
You are mostly correct, without prior knowledge of the format, you just see ones and zeros - there is no map as to where what piece of data starts/ends per se in the data itself minus that prior knowledge. But armed with the format/spec, it's as simple as reading it and decoding accordingly. IOW the spec states the sample rate is ~n bytes from the start and ~n bytes long and so on.
Sure. The 'Rosetta stone' needed here seems magnitudes more important than for written language!
You do find crafty designs for things that speak to their function in this world, but I don't think this is one of them.
I don't believe DSD (the different digital language Sony tried to push) addresses this either. (Which would actually have been something to defend trying to create a different language beyond "Let's try to get everyone to repurchase a different version of their most expensive hardware for the same end result.")
The problem with CDR and DVDR is they essentially use ink which the laser burns holes in, which can degrade over time. If we had the ability to physically stamp CDs like commercial CDs (actual deformations in the plastic instead of ink that breaks down), the would be more archival
Long Term Storage - Archiving Projects?
rofl..
Linear Mode
