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Old 03-16-2016, 02:22 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by SMM View Post
......

Feel free to download both versions and compare them.
Let us know what you think of the differences between the two versions.
Any feedback, questions, thoughts, and comments are welcome and appreciated.
Thanks for your reply. I will download this one and compare them. The RSk5 version may turn out to be quite sufficient for my needs :-)
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:33 AM   #42
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I have had Izotope's Idrum Drum Machine, without licence for a while (mea culpa), I tried to buy a licence but it's discontinued. I only had the Player, no libraries or presets, and I'm not one for 5 Terrabyte Sample Libraries. So it lay in the drawer, I used it one or twice with the horrible Big Mono kit.

I needed a quick simple kit the other day, lightbulb.

I installed the Player, Insert New Track and pointed it at SMM's Kick. Another lightbulb. Insert New Track for Kick IR, Insert New Track for Plate Reverb. I opened the Info Panel and assigned all tracks to the SAME MIDI note. Adjusted the Decay etc. Experimented by layering another Kick and VerbIR's.

Repeat for other Drums. Nice Quick Kit No Sends.

You can still download the Demo, just enter a fake email addy. I would delete the built in Patterns and Samples immediately mind. /Documents/Idrum/Content

https://www.izotope.com/support/download/idrum
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Last edited by FKAB; 03-16-2016 at 06:02 AM. Reason: And just to say, it won't work with multi-channel .wav samples.
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:52 AM   #43
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Out of curiousity, does the demo version still introduce silences after ten days?
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:34 AM   #44
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Out of curiousity, does the demo version still introduce silences after ten days?
Actually Ivan, you've got 30 days, then a big old nasty RAM_Bugaboo will jump out of the screen and bite your nose off.

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Old 03-16-2016, 10:25 AM   #45
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I downloaded the demo just for the hell of it....wants serial number immediately otherwise no sound.
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Old 03-16-2016, 10:54 AM   #46
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Pah! I eat RAM_Bugaboos for breakfast!

It`s the fluffy bunnies I can``t stand.

Looks like this particular izotopiary is going to be a waste of time, especially if you cant actually BUY it any more if you want to.
Wonder why it is still on their site?
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:51 AM   #47
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I downloaded the demo just for the hell of it....wants serial number immediately otherwise no sound.
Sorry I didn't know that!

And for the usual pissy fuckers, I wasn't talking about the product as such just the the idea. Nobody was asking you to buy it.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:18 PM   #48
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Looks like it's not actually on the public site. FKAB's link took you to the legacy area where he was able to get to. Weird stuff, I was able to download it from there by putting in my account email, but then after I installed it I guess it rang back home and discovered that it wasn't associated with my account...but no worries.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:37 PM   #49
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Ha ha, okay, but on a serious note, SMM put a lot of work into this and he did it for various reasons. One of his targets was for those folks that don't have a powerhouse computer.

I think his main concern was to put it together for the R&R folks where the number of velocity layers is not so important. Instead he focused on Round Robins, with 9 RRs on the kit pieces that matter.

I think he succeeded in this.

EDIT: And to be clear to avoid confusion, SMM's library has nothing to do with the link that FKAB posted.
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:06 PM   #50
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Ha ha, okay, but on a serious note, SMM put a lot of work into this and he did it for various reasons. One of his targets was for those folks that don't have a powerhouse computer.

I think his main concern was to put it together for the R&R folks where the number of velocity layers is not so important. Instead he focused on Round Robins, with 9 RRs on the kit pieces that matter.

I think he succeeded in this.

EDIT: And to be clear to avoid confusion, SMM's library has nothing to do with the link that FKAB posted.
Correct Tod, and the reason it came about was that I tried to do it in Rs5k last week with RR's. No matter which Sample fires, the IR's fire also. But because of Remove Midi Note...I couldn't work around it. Any ideas without having to use many instances?

And thank you I should have made that clear!
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:01 PM   #51
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Correct Tod, and the reason it came about was that I tried to do it in Rs5k last week with RR's. No matter which Sample fires, the IR's fire also. But because of Remove Midi Note...I couldn't work around it. Any ideas without having to use many instances?

And thank you I should have made that clear!
Hi FKAB and thank you for clarifying it.

I'm not sure I totally understand your question, but you do have to have and an instance of RS5K for each RR. But you can have them all on the same track, so that's not too bad.

Here's a link to how I explained how to use RRs in RS5K.

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=212

Quote:
No matter which Sample fires, the IR's fire also.
That one is really confusing, IRs, (Impulse Responses), should have nothing to do with RS5K. Can you explain in a little more detail what you're trying to do? I'd like to help if I can.
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:18 PM   #52
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Hi FKAB and thank you for clarifying it.

I'm not sure I totally understand your question, but you do have to have and an instance of RS5K for each RR. But you can have them all on the same track, so that's not too bad.

Here's a link to how I explained how to use RRs in RS5K.

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=212



That one is really confusing, IRs, (Impulse Responses), should have nothing to do with RS5K. Can you explain in a little more detail what you're trying to do? I'd like to help if I can.
Yes. Above, I have a SMM's Kick, SMM Kick IR, and SMM Reverb IR loaded on seperate tracks in IDRUM but all firing from the same MIDI note, if I mute the Kick, I can hear the Kick IR and the Verb IR quite clearly.

RS5K, three instances thereof and same Files as above. Write some kick notes on MIDI 40 and assign same note to each instance of rs5k. Then Mute the Kick rs5k, you will hear the Kick IR and the Verb IR. Watch your level meter also. This is what I tried with RR's but failed. :-)
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Last edited by FKAB; 03-16-2016 at 04:41 PM. Reason: added snapshot
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Old 03-16-2016, 06:31 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FKAB View Post
I have a SMM's Kick, SMM Kick IR, and SMM Reverb IR loaded
I looked at the JPEG/snapshot that you have posted.
I understand why you are having problems.
You loaded both the samples and IR files into RS5k (this is not good).
You have this set up incorrectly.

Maybe I can help you:

You have the kick drum sample loaded into RS5k (this is correct).
You have the reverb IR files loaded into instances of RS5k also (this is not good).

If you plan to use the reverb IR files, you must load each IR file into an instance of ReaVerb.
(You must load them into a convolution reverb plugin.... Do not load the IR files into RS5k).
The convolution reverb plugin that comes with REAPER is entitled "ReaVerb".

Simple to remember:
Do not load the reverb IR files into RS5k.
You must load them into ReaVerb.

Here is how your track would look if you had everything loaded
onto one track (not using a reverb buss).

They would be loaded on the track in this order
(using one instance of RS5k and two instances of ReaVerb):

#1. RS5k: K68c01 (this is the kick sample).
#2. ReaVerb: 217-R1_RockKick (this is the reverb IR file).
#3. ReaVerb: 200-R1_Reverb1 (this is another reverb file).

Adjust the "Wet" and "Dry" sliders to your
personal taste in ReaVerb and everything should be fine.

Side note: I think that using "217-R1_RockKick" is most likely the only
reverb that you need for the kick drum, but, if you do like the sound
of "200-R1_Reverb1" mixed in also, then, using both is not a problem while
using two instances of ReaVerb.

I hope this information helps you to get onto the correct
path when using RS5k, samples, ReaVerb and IR files.
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:41 PM   #54
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thanks so much. Only just started recording and this is all new to me, I gratefully accept your work, knowing that I'm not sure how to use it yet, but I'm getting to grips with Reaper slowly.
many thanks,this community is awesome
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Old 03-17-2016, 04:26 AM   #55
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Yes, I know about the IR Reverb Files SMM. I'm not trying to be awkward, and I'm not having problems; but experimenting. Why is it "bad" to put the impulse responses into RS5K? I have also tried some more expensive Reverb impulses in this fashion, and it sound fine and no Sends.

Last edited by FKAB; 03-17-2016 at 05:06 AM.
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:16 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by FKAB View Post
Correct Tod, and the reason it came about was that I tried to do it in Rs5k last week with RR's. No matter which Sample fires, the IR's fire also. But because of Remove Midi Note...I couldn't work around it. Any ideas without having to use many instances?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FKAB View Post
Yes, I know about the IR Reverb Files SMM. I'm not trying to be awkward, and I'm not having problems; but experimenting. Why is it "bad" to put the impulse responses into RS5K? I have also tried some more expensive Reverb impulses in this fashion, and it sound fine and no Sends.
Hi FKAB, the problem is that you're not hearing the Kick going through the IRs, you're just hearing the IRs themselves. In other words, you're using the IRs as samples, not IRs.

Although the combined sounds might not sound bad to you, and indeed it never hurts to experiment, but if you're getting results that you find are confusing, or not what you intended, then you might want to rethink what you're doing.

Like SMM said, load ReaVerb as an FX on a separate track and load the IRs in them, it's best to use only one IR per ReaVerb track. Then use a send from the kick output to send to the ReaVerb tracks.

Or if you have a separate output for the kick on the RS5K track, you could load a ReaVerb as an FX on that track. You might even be able to put both ReaVerbs on that track and then use 4 track channels so you have independent control. I don't know, I've never done that before.
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Old 03-17-2016, 10:40 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi FKAB, the problem is that you're not hearing the Kick going through the IRs, you're just hearing the IRs themselves. In other words, you're using the IRs as samples, not IRs.

Although the combined sounds might not sound bad to you, and indeed it never hurts to experiment, but if you're getting results that you find are confusing, or not what you intended, then you might want to rethink what you're doing.

Like SMM said, load ReaVerb as an FX on a separate track and load the IRs in them, it's best to use only one IR per ReaVerb track. Then use a send from the kick output to send to the ReaVerb tracks.

Or if you have a separate output for the kick on the RS5K track, you could load a ReaVerb as an FX on that track. You might even be able to put both ReaVerbs on that track and then use 4 track channels so you have independent control. I don't know, I've never done that before.
Gotcha and thanks! :-)
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Old 03-17-2016, 03:11 PM   #58
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I've got another couple of questions about this awesome thing for Tod or whoever is kind enough to reply.

First, there's an instance of ReaComp in the project, in brickwall limiting mode. What is the purpose of that?

Second, and this could relate generally to drum programming in Reaper: when you randomize an instrument that has "obey note-offs" enabled in its own instance of RS5K (typically open hi-hat), some notes are skipped, they get "choked", muted. Is there a way to avoid it, without sacrificing the "obey note-offs" capability? Especially for this kit, which isn't velocity-sensitive, it would be really good to be able to randomize the timing.

Thanks!
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Old 03-18-2016, 01:26 PM   #59
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First, there's an instance of ReaComp in the project, in brickwall limiting mode. What is the purpose of that?
I added that to keep the master drum level from exceeding -0.8dB when
pushed hard by the user. I wanted to avoid meter clipping (even though
REAPER uses 64 bit floating point math). Having that plugin in place
will clip off the peaks when pushed hard.

The user can deactivate the plugin if desired.

Side note: Sometimes people do prefer to push the level of the master
drum mix up to get the "sound" of hard clipping.

On another note: I was going to program ReaComp as a soft clip limiter
(using the knee) to create the effect of the drum mix being recorded
loudly to tape (tape saturation) when pushed hard, but, I decided not
to do that and only add the hard clip feature at the end of the signal chain
to prevent digital overs on the meters instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizhny Tagil View Post
Second, and this could relate generally to drum programming in Reaper: when you randomize an instrument that has "obey note-offs" enabled in its own instance of RS5K (typically open hi-hat), some notes are skipped, they get "choked", muted. Is there a way to avoid it, without sacrificing the "obey note-offs" capability?
I'm not sure that I understand your question.
I will try to answer it the best that I can.

"Notes" are not skipped. Any note assigned to a sample will
trigger the sample, but, the samples will be randomized when
using round robins.
Any sample that has "obey note-offs" will be randomized also.

On a side note:
The open hi-hat in this drum kit contains one sample only.
There is no use for round robins here. I chose to use one sample
for the open hi-hat because I found that it worked best for this program.
(More than one sample was not needed to get a good sound in this case).

The closed and loose hi-hats use 9 round robins (9 samples).
The foot and open hi-hat uses only one sample each.
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Old 03-18-2016, 02:56 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMM View Post
On another note: I was going to program ReaComp as a soft clip limiter
(using the knee) to create the effect of the drum mix being recorded
loudly to tape (tape saturation) when pushed hard
That's a good idea
Anyway, I thought it could be something like that.

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Originally Posted by SMM View Post
I'm not sure that I understand your question.
I will try to answer it the best that I can.

"Notes" are not skipped. Any note assigned to a sample will
trigger the sample, but, the samples will be randomized when
using round robins.
Any sample that has "obey note-offs" will be randomized also.

On a side note:
The open hi-hat in this drum kit contains one sample only.
There is no use for round robins here. I chose to use one sample
for the open hi-hat because I found that it worked best for this program.
(More than one sample was not needed to get a good sound in this case).

The closed and loose hi-hats use 9 round robins (9 samples).
The foot and open hi-hat uses only one sample each.
Yes, I think I've explained myself terribly.

Let me try again. What I've described also happens with one single sample being triggered. It has nothing to do with round robins.

What happens is that, let's say I have a thick open hi-hat pattern (or whatever instrument, the point being that I have RS5K triggering a sample and obeying the "obey note-offs" thing).
If I, for example, stick the MIDI Humanizer in the chain, what I hear is the notes being played slightly off the beat, but some of them, for some reason, get skipped, "choked", like they're not played thoroughly.
This doesn't happen with other parts of the drum kit whose respective instance of RS5K hasn't the "obey note-offs" option checked.

I was wondering if there was a way around to this.

It's not a flaw of this particular program (which is great for the modest power it requires), it's something that always happened to me in Reaper.
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Old 03-18-2016, 04:39 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizhny Tagil View Post
What happens is that, let's say I have a thick open hi-hat pattern (or whatever instrument, the point being that I have RS5K triggering a sample and obeying the "obey note-offs" thing).
Hi Nizhny, I'm a little confused here, because the only sample that should have a "obey note-offs" would be the Open Hi-Hat.

The reason for that one having "obey note-offs" is that it's used to act like a choke, which is one thing RS5K lacks. There are a couple of JS plugins designed to do the chokes but it's been hard to get them to work properly.

Quote:
If I, for example, stick the MIDI Humanizer in the chain, what I hear is the notes being played slightly off the beat, but some of them, for some reason, get skipped, "choked", like they're not played thoroughly.
This doesn't happen with other parts of the drum kit whose respective instance of RS5K hasn't the "obey note-offs" option checked.
In all honesty Nizhny, I haven't examined SMM's RS5K track that closely to see if there are more "obey note-offs" then just the Open Hi-Hat. Are you saying there are more besides the Open Hi-Hat that has "obey note-offs"?

Are you using a plugin for humanizing or are you doing that in the Midi Editor?

If you are using a plugin, try humanizing in the Midi Editor and see what happens.
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Old 03-18-2016, 07:49 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizhny Tagil View Post
If I, for example, stick the MIDI Humanizer in the chain, what I hear is the notes being played slightly off the beat, but some of them, for some reason, get skipped, "choked", like they're not played thoroughly.
The actions that you describe here are very interesting.

I have never used a MIDI humanizer because I always program
my parts by hand using the piano roll-MIDI editor, so, I cannot
help you with this. Tod might have more knowledge about this than me.

This is interesting and I wonder if it has something to do with
how the MIDI editor/piano roll and humanizer are interacting with
each other?

When you use the humanizer, is it re-writing the MIDI notes on
the piano roll? If so, zoom in to the piano roll where the note
is missing (or, not played thoroughly) and look closely. Is there
a note that is very very very short there? (zoom in close to see).

If there is a note there, then, you may have to grab it and extend
it to the correct length..... Maybe the humanizer is not making
the note long enough when it is re-writing the note? Maybe it is shortening
it's length which would not allow the note to play for the desired length,
or, worse, cause the note to be deleted?

I find this an interesting discovery about how the humanizer plugin and
the "obey note-offs" are working together.
What humanizer plugin are you using?
What are the settings?

The reason that I ask is because Tod is very advanced at MIDI and
I'm very curious to see what he says. It will be interesting to see what
causes this problem in REAPER using the humanizer and Obey Note-Offs
in RS5k. I wonder if he can re-create the problem and do tests to find out
why this happens?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
In all honesty Nizhny, I haven't examined SMM's RS5K track that closely to see if there are more "obey note-offs" then just the Open Hi-Hat. Are you saying there are more besides the Open Hi-Hat that has "obey note-offs"?
The Open Hi-Hat is the only one that uses "obey note-offs".
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Old 03-19-2016, 04:19 AM   #63
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Ok, very sorry if this will be long and complicated.

Yes, I always talking about the open hi-hat in particular, but that could happen with any instrument that uses the "obey note-off" in RS5K.

The plugin I've tried is the JS MIDI Velocity and Timing Humanizer. It doesn't rewrite the actual notes you see in the MIDI editor, it just plays them differently, I guess.

The reason I often use this, instead of the MIDI Editor, is because that way I can drag a MIDI item and create loops, instead of copying the same item over and over and then having to humanize them one by one in the MIDI Editor.
The resulting loops will be all identical and editing one would automatically rewrite all the other, so using the MIDI editor would be pointless because the humanizing would be identical for every loop.
So, if dragging to loop an item, the best way to randomize/humanize is to use a dedicated plugin in the chain, in my opinion.
But, I must say, I've noticed this behavior also if randomizing with the MIDI editor.
Also, although this may not be related, it's also strange that if randomizing even a little a very thick pattern (like a blast beat, for example), it would create comb filtering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMM View Post
Maybe the humanizer is not making
the note long enough when it is re-writing the note? Maybe it is shortening
it's length which would not allow the note to play for the desired length,
or, worse, cause the note to be deleted?
I think this is the reason, but as I said, the plugin doesn't rewrite directly the notes in the piano roll. I think it works as if "reading" the notes in the piano roll and re-playing them, well, randomized.

I hope I made any sense here and I apologize if I didn't explain mysel very well, but this is the best I could do.
Any idea?
Thank you very much, in the meantime.

Last edited by Nizhny Tagil; 03-19-2016 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 03-19-2016, 05:42 AM   #64
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So I tried to make some examples. I've used the very project template that comes with this download.

Ex. 1 is an open hi-hat pattern without any randomizing whatsoever.
Ex. 2 is the same pattern with very slightly timing randomizing using the JS MIDI Velocity And Timing Humanizer.
Ex. 3 is the same in ex. 2, only with the "obey note-offs" unchecked.
Ex. 4 is the pattern randomized in the MIDI editor, not looped, but copied 4 times and each MIDI item individually randomized.

So, the problem only occurs if randomizing the timing with the plugin.
The easy fix would be to just use the MIDI editor, but as I've said, that would require copying and pasting the MIDI item over and over and randomizing each one manually in the MIDI editor, which is a lot more work than just dragging the item to multiple loops and let the plugin do the randomizing.
Attached Files
File Type: zip oh ex non random timing.zip (1.00 MB, 156 views)
File Type: zip oh ex random timing .zip (1.01 MB, 167 views)
File Type: zip oh ex random timing, obey note-offs unchecked.zip (1,019.2 KB, 163 views)
File Type: zip oh ex randomized timing in MIDI editor .zip (1.01 MB, 172 views)
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Old 03-19-2016, 09:25 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizhny Tagil View Post
The plugin I've tried is the JS MIDI Velocity and Timing Humanizer. It doesn't rewrite the actual notes you see in the MIDI editor, it just plays them differently, I guess.
Hi Nizhny, it certainly appears that the JS plugin is the problem here. It's almost acting like a choke.

About all I can suggest is that you look for another plugin. It also might help to post a bug report about it in the Bug Reports thread, or maybe "JSFX and ReaScript Discussion".

It appears that it's part of the regular JS plugins that come with each Reaper installation, so it's funny it hasn't come up before.

I'm sorry you're having these problems though.
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Old 03-19-2016, 10:06 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi Nizhny, it certainly appears that the JS plugin is the problem here. It's almost acting like a choke.

About all I can suggest is that you look for another plugin. It also might help to post a bug report about it in the Bug Reports thread, or maybe "JSFX and ReaScript Discussion".

It appears that it's part of the regular JS plugins that come with each Reaper installation, so it's funny it hasn't come up before.

I'm sorry you're having these problems though.
I'm not sure there are other plugins to randomize the timing, plenty for velocity though, I'll look around.
Maybe I'll open a topic in the Bug section and point to this discussion.

Anyway, it's just a matter of workflow. I certainly could go over every single MIDI item in my projects and manually humanize each, but I thought there could be something smoother than that.

Thanks a lot!
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Old 10-19-2021, 12:04 PM   #67
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This is awesome SMM!Thanks dude!
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Old 10-19-2021, 02:11 PM   #68
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Thanks SMM, very useful and instructive indeed. Always good to see how other people do it.
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Old 10-19-2021, 05:25 PM   #69
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You are welcome.
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Old 10-30-2021, 03:12 PM   #70
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Update:

I added an additional download link today at post #1 (a Dropbox link)
in the event that the Google Drive link should fail again in the future.
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Old 07-11-2023, 03:25 AM   #71
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Good sounding kit but... why no side stick!?
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Old 07-11-2023, 06:13 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by /AND/ View Post
Good sounding kit but... why no side stick!?
The full kit is here:
https://smmdrums.wordpress.com/
Rim shot, side stick etc.
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Old 07-11-2023, 10:07 AM   #73
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Weird.... I had lost my download & decided to get it from your address as posted, Sid.
Signed into my google account & never got the option to download the kit.

Maybe Tod can help me.... I am probably going to have to retire from beta work for Toontrack soon due to old age & lack of hard drive space, so I need to get this particular track up & running again.
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Old 07-11-2023, 10:20 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Weird.... I had lost my download & decided to get it from your address as posted, Sid.
Signed into my google account & never got the option to download the kit.

Maybe Tod can help me.... I am probably going to have to retire from beta work for Toontrack soon due to old age & lack of hard drive space, so I need to get this particular track up & running again.
Hey my friend, I think this post is good, I haven't checked recently, but the last time I did everything was there.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=150868

You're going to want the Kontakt version aren't you?

I also have them on my website, click on "[TVI]_Tod's Virtual Sample Instruments" in my signature.

Last edited by Tod; 07-11-2023 at 10:37 AM.
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