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Old 03-26-2014, 09:17 AM   #1
Mudchild
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Default Live small mixing desk recommendations?

Hi folks, need some advice. Some guys I might be doing some work with need a small mixing desk, and I'd be grateful for any recommendations... It's for recording kids' bands, beginners' stuff really. The ideal requirements are:

- no less than, say 10 xlr inputs
- separate channel outs, so multitracks can be recorded on a laptop
- as cheap as reasonably possible
- reliable!

All advice welcome!

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Old 03-26-2014, 09:59 AM   #2
serr
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My advice would be to use Reaper instead!
Get an interface (or multiple units) for the inputs and outputs you need and run your computer/Reaper with an iPad and/or USB MIDI controllers (which can all be wireless if desired).

I've been mixing live music and simultaneously recording all the multitrack inputs with Reaper for 4.5 years now. It's the most powerful "mixing desk" I've ever used. I wouldn't go back to the current analog or digital mixing desks for anything!

Just put a SSD in that laptop.

You could pick up a used MOTU 896 interface on ebay for around $350. Very reliable units. That has 8 XLR inputs. Do you already maybe have a small interface with 2 XLR inputs? If you do, aggregate them together and there's your 10 mic inputs.

You'll have a modular system that you can continually build/expand/evolve.

Last edited by serr; 03-26-2014 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 03-26-2014, 10:40 AM   #3
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Surely you are not going to use the mouse for all the work are you?

That is why I bought the Behringer X32, came from a small fader interface

Mixing 32 tracks with the mouse is a pain in the arse

Anyways the final stems after the Mixing consoles is what people mix anyways.

Computers are fast but no way in hell they will ever compare to a real desk with real faders where you use your hands and fingers and are not wrapped up in a mouse.

So yes a small fader or mixer is indeed better as this way you can premix your levels before they go into Reaper.

No need to mess with a mouse.

The X32 for all the talk around it is worth every penny!!!

I wished more companies would stop catering to the "CLA" elites and start putting out PRO mixer desks at consumer prices.


You simply can not compare mixing on a desk vs mixing on a Daw, unless you can have a full open add on anytime fader interface to use to control the Daw, a real desk is always better, in fact this is how all studios record anyways.

The latency on Interfaces is a big deal, specially when you want to do ITB cue mixes or earphone mixes

Reaper does not have Hardware Monitoring, as Protools, Cubase, Magix, Studio one.

Without Hardware Monitoring it really sucks .

I run Studio one and they added hardware monitoring( know as zero latency monitoring) on v 2.6 as people were complaining that their interfaces had zero latency monitoring and yet Studio one did not support it.

Reaper should implement hardware monitoring ( zero latency monitoring) where you can see the levels of the inputs but the audio does not go into Reaper it goes straight out of the interface

I believe this was pushed but went nowhere.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:46 AM   #4
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Thanks for your responses and different perspectives, both - much appreciated. For practical reasons, other than the ones stated, it will need to be a non-mouse situation anyway - knobs and faders required.

However I probably should have mentioned that the budget needs to be a lot lower than the £2k+ of the X32. The guys in question were originally going for this Mackie thing which is only £300, but didn't really do the job, so I told them to hold the order while I looked into alternatives. I'm not averse to telling them to spend a LITTLE more - however I am also seeing things like this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-X2...pr_product_top

what do we think of that?
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:55 AM   #5
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I believe that one has only 1+2 on the USB bus

Some of those units have outputs but not Multitracking over USB ( separate channels)

This is the Reason I saved up for an X32 I wanted to finally end my Fader Interface/ Router/ Mixer/ Effects Desk/ Bigger interface woes in one shot

Glad I saved up the money, I was sceptical at first but now I love this thing.

Not asking you to buy this thing but this is what I meant with a proper interface over usb:
https://www.alesis.com/multimix8usb20

that one has 10 outputs over usb and 2 return (like a master track from Reaper)

That is what you should be looking for

Many of these smaller mixers are only 1+2 over usb and are not multichannel recording capable

I was sick and tired of looking at many of them and sunk the $$ into the x32. However for you make sure the mixer is multichannel over usb.

If not you need to buy a separate usb or firewire interface to record the mixer output channels into your PC.

Last edited by SamuelC; 03-26-2014 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuelC View Post
Surely you are not going to use the mouse for all the work are you?
Nope. UC-33, Faderport, & iPad.
Somewhat small but more than worth it for portability and the static FOH location (often found in poor locations in some clubs) no longer existing.

I push my latency out to 11ms (total system) with the plugins I like to use live.

That MOTU unit also has a cuemix mixer built-in if you want to use that to run in-ear mixes with only a couple ms latency.

I also have to lower my sample rate to 48k (just like that x32) to run the plugins I want live. But of course it's also a complete DAW and runs 96k & 192k for post production (which the x32 does not).

That x32 looks like a really well thought out mixer though.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuelC View Post
I believe that one has only 1+2 on the USB bus

Some of those units have outputs but not Multitracking over USB ( separate channels)

This is the Reason I saved up for an X32 I wanted to finally end my Fader Interface/ Router/ Mixer/ Effects Desk/ Bigger interface woes in one shot

...

If not you need to buy a separate usb or firewire interface to record the mixer output channels into your PC.
This is something I should have said more about in the first place - actually the modus operandi WILL be mixing desk going into an audio interface, so I'm not expecting USB multitrack capability from the desk itself. Just enough ins and direct outs to do the job.
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Old 03-27-2014, 06:27 AM   #8
Mike Thrussell
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I can't recommend the Mackie Wizard 16:2 highly enough for this purpose.

Independent phantom switches (on selected versions)
16XLR in
Proper high mid and low mid sweep EQ
4 monitor auxs
2 FX auxs + dual lexicon onboard FX
Direct outs (pre or post fader/eq)

Rack mountable too! (Only 19" wide)
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Old 03-27-2014, 06:35 AM   #9
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If you can do with 8 xlrs, then Zoom R16 or R24 might work for you. These are combination recorder, interface, control surface.

In your example, you could use it as a mixer/recorder in the field, with the main out feeding sound reinforcement.

Later xfer all of the tracks to a DAW, or connect a laptop-DAW in the field and capture the 8 tracks directly using it as an interface/controller.

These things are really versatile. I've had the R24 for about a month ... search youtube for 'topdazzle' to see a great set of R24 vids covering just about every possible use.
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:12 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Thrussell View Post
I can't recommend the Mackie Wizard 16:2 highly enough for this purpose.
I've used these in the past. The mic preamps in the MOTU 896 interface I mentioned are FAR better sounding than anything Mackie makes. And of course with the Mackie you would be restricted to a hardware device that cannot be reconfigured on the fly or expanded in the future. Need another aux send for something? Too bad. You can't!

You would have only the most crude basic eq controls on that board. If you needed to do any kind of production, you would need to invest in outboard gear. This 'old-school' approach is monumentally expensive and crude vs. the abilities of a modern DAW.

Here's the thing. You already need an interface and computer to record the audio. Put a SSD in the computer and it's ready to mix live as well with the power of a full production studio. Forcing yourself to run the sound with a very limited analog board in front of the DAW would be restrictive to the point of silliness! (An analogy might be: You buy a new truck because your car can't hold enough cargo. But then you start towing the new truck with your old car because you didn't realize the truck has it's own engine.)

I can't emphasize the modular thing enough either. Decide a year from now that you need another 8 inputs? You'd have to get an entirely different analog mixer to replace the old one with the old approach. Using a DAW system, you simply add another interface to the chain of devices and off you go.

For probably the same cost as all the cables required for the old-school setup you could pick up a used UC-33 MIDI controller. There's 9 faders and 24 knobs to assign. Add MIDI controllers and/or touch devices later on if you need more control surface abilities.

Last edited by serr; 03-27-2014 at 07:23 AM.
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:47 AM   #11
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What about an A&H Ice-16 or Ice-16D
http://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/ice-16/
1 rack unit high it will record 16 channels straight to a memory stick or usb drive (6 hours of 16 channel audio on a 32gb usb stick) and can be used as a 16x16 daw interface using firewire or usb. You can also daisy chain several units.

As the web site says "Live or in the studio, ICE-16 makes multitrack recording easy"

Just a thought....
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:54 AM   #12
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Mud,

I've been using the x2442 for a couple years now. It has 4 auxes, 2 of which are switchable pre and the other 2 are post. on the first 8 inputs it has 1/4 " direct outs which I found out are post fader but still can go into an interface. With 4 sub out pairs you can get 12 channels discrete into an interface which I've done into my Tascam US1800.

I only use it live, and only rarely record a show with it.. for prosperity reasons usually.My Zoom h4n does a great job at recording gigs. I will say the only thing that let me down hard with the board is the effects unit crapped out with a terrible noise mid gig unfortunately. Turn down main fx receive and it went away. I had it serviced it and looked at it myself it was a bum ribbon cable. For your purposes I think it will suffice. I bought it to mic up a cover band and because I couldn't beat the price. Put an external fx unit on it and it's been reliable for 3 years now which for Behringer surprised me!

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Old 03-27-2014, 12:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
My advice would be to use Reaper instead!
There he goes singing the praises of REAPER and an SSD again!

Seriously, I have a Mackie 1604 and they are good live boards that can be found used on the cheap...about $300 the last I checked around. And if you needs change they will SELL for about the same as what you paid. I like Behringer stuff for bang for buck. There are couple of good looking consoles that street for about $500. I don't like buying expensive stuff until I'm sure that it's what I really need.

I like the idea of using a board to mix live and taking the direct outs for recording. BUT Serr makes a very good point. Your needs WILL continue to grow and you will end up spending lots of money with hardware. You'll end up needing a snake, EQs, compressors, a reverb, racks to hold it all...the list goes on and on.

SERR will be the expert on this, but I would at least want to explore a setup like he mentions. What is the minimum laptop you could get away with if you had a SSD? What interface would give you enough I/O?

And as far as mixing...on a board or on a screen I get a fast static mix and tweak from there. It doesn't take me long either way. I'm faster on a board, but I also have more experience with it.
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