Old 03-06-2017, 09:51 PM   #1
JBKB
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Default Recording MIDI track twice

I have an unusually problem but I did find what caused it and not sure if a different USB MIDI cable will resolve the issue.
Here's my setup:
A Kurzweil PC3K8 and a Hammond SK2. Reaper(current version) is running on a macbook pro 10.11.6

Issue.
I record the 1st track using the SK2 as the MIDI input. When I try to record a 2nd track using the SK2 again and start recording, track one starts to record on track 2 along when I play or don't play. Now if I change the input for track 2 to the PC3K8 no issues it works as one would think.
The USB MIDI cable on SK2 is from my Roland D-20 its a UN-One. Would this cause this funky problem? I've read online and watched the videos on the Reaper site but nothing clear. I did order a new USB MIDI cable to see if this solves the problem but again not sure how the cable would cause this issue.

Thanks
John
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:33 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by JBKB View Post
I record the 1st track using the SK2 as the MIDI input. When I try to record a 2nd track using the SK2 again and start recording, track one starts to record on track 2 along when I play or don't play.
Just to clarify:

Do you mean that the audio from track 1 is recorded onto track 2? Or that track 1 is recording simultaneously with track 2?
And is only track 2 armed for recording in this case? Or are both tracks armed?

Otherwise can you post more details and/or a screenshot about how you have the two tracks set up exactly?: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=140670

Last edited by solger; 03-08-2017 at 02:42 AM.
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Old 03-08-2017, 08:33 PM   #3
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Hello Solger,

Yes, track 1 is recorded onto track 2 and track 2 is armed for recording only.
So when I press the record button (command R) and recording starts, track 1 plays. Track 1 is then record on track 2. If I then play it back muting track 1 track 2 is the same as track 1. I can add to track 2 along what it records from track 1. Now like I mention if I change the input from the Hammond to the Kursweil I don't have the issue. The new midi cable arrives tomorrow I've had other weird issues thus I keep thinking its the midi cable. I'll know tomorrow night.

Thanks for your response Solger
John
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Old 03-09-2017, 04:09 AM   #4
AlexGermany
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Hi!

I have a simmilar problem and think, this is a good place to post it.

I have a Steinberg UR44, there pluged in is a MoxF8. When I add the first track and set input to UR44, MidiCH 1, set channel map to Channel 1, all seams all right. But now, when I add another track, input and output are the same as track 1 and it is also set to Channel 1. When I change this on track 2 from Midi channel 1 to 2, track 1 changes the midi channel too. How can I prevent this and set the channels and outputs individually? Thanks for replies.
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Old 03-09-2017, 04:29 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by JBKB View Post
.. The new midi cable arrives tomorrow I've had other weird issues thus I keep thinking its the midi cable. I'll know tomorrow night.
OK, let's see if the new MIDI cable fixes the problem. Otherwise we'll have to investigate further
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Old 03-09-2017, 04:34 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by AlexGermany View Post
I have a Steinberg UR44, there pluged in is a MoxF8. When I add the first track and set input to UR44, MidiCH 1, set channel map to Channel 1, all seams all right.
OK, so for the track you use Input:MIDI -> UR44 -> channel 1 and Input:MIDI -> Map input to channel 1, right?

Quote:
But now, when I add another track, input and output are the same as track 1 and it is also set to Channel 1. When I change this on track 2 from Midi channel 1 to 2, track 1 changes the midi channel too. How can I prevent this and set the channels and outputs individually? Thanks for replies.
How do you add another track exactly?

Otherwise can you attach a little example .RPP project file? http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=140670
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:34 AM   #7
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As for the setup, you are right. I set up the first track in a new clean project and make the settings:
- Input: Midi --> Steinberg UR44 --> Channel 1
- Output: Steinberg UR44 --> Channel 1

When this is all done I add another track with the command "insert new track at end of list". As I am blind I do this with a shortcut that is bind to the action. And now there is the phenomena, because on track 2 all is already set up, like in track 1, input and output are Steinberg UR44 Midi channel 1. When I now change the midi channel on track 2 in the input section, track 1 also changes its midi channel. How do I have to set up the second track or maybe already the first track to avoid this?
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:51 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by AlexGermany View Post
When I now change the midi channel on track 2 in the input section, track 1 also changes its midi channel.
Could it be the case the both tracks 1+2 are selected at the same time? Because in this case changes to track 2 would also be done to track 1.

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And now there is the phenomena, because on track 2 all is already set up, like in track 1, input and output are Steinberg UR44 Midi channel 1
I'll have to check this. Which Reaper version are you using? And which plugin is loaded into track 1?

Last edited by solger; 03-09-2017 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 03-09-2017, 01:54 PM   #9
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No, it isn't selected, only track 1 or 2, on which I am currently on. There is no plugin loaded. I am using REAPER v5.35/x64.
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:20 PM   #10
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Well forget the new MIDI cable DOA I'll have to send it back. The first thing I do is test the MIDI cable using the MAC Audio MIDI setup. A signal goes out(good) but when I press a key on the Hammond the indicator does not light.

I then opened Reaper went to options>preference>midi device, it sees the new midi cable, I enable input and output exit out. start a new project having the Hammond as input arm record, and nothing no meters zilch. I pressed the record button Nada.

After some more experimenting If I do as stated previously but turn the output off and the default FX instrument play it does not record on the 2nd Armed Hammond track. So some how the output from track 1 is being re-recorded on track 2 if track 2's input is also the Hammond and track 1's output is the Hammond. This does not happen in this same scenario if track 1 & 2 input & output is the kursweil or track 1 is the hammond and track 2 is the kursweil.

Basically I see it as a loop:
coming out of track 1 and being feed back into track 2 if they are both hammond output and input. Hope that makes sense.
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Old 03-10-2017, 02:18 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBKB View Post
So some how the output from track 1 is being re-recorded on track 2 if track 2's input is also the Hammond and track 1's output is the Hammond.
Ah, OK. In your previous posts you didn't mention that you're also sending MIDI back to the keyboard. So I hadn't considered this being a possible issue ...

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Originally Posted by JBKB View Post
Basically I see it as a loop: coming out of track 1 and being feed back into track 2 if they are both hammond output and input. Hope that makes sense.
Yeah, most likely in this case (while recording track 2) the recorded MIDI notes from track 1 are played back and sent to the MIDI-In of the Hammond. Then sent back through the MIDI-OUT of the Hammond into track 2.

For just recording the MIDI input it's not necessary to enable the MIDI output or send MIDI output (from the track) back to the MIDI keyboard.
So disabling the MIDI output should solve the problem ...

But since it's not entirely clear to me from your post: is it working now? Or is there still a problem?

Last edited by solger; 03-10-2017 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 03-10-2017, 08:50 AM   #12
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Ah, OK. In your previous posts you didn't mention that you're also sending MIDI back to the keyboard. So I hadn't considered this being a possible issue ...


Yeah, most likely in this case (while recording track 2) the recorded MIDI notes from track 1 are played back and sent to the MIDI-In of the Hammond. Then sent back through the MIDI-OUT of the Hammond into track 2.

For just recording the MIDI input it's not necessary to enable the MIDI output or send MIDI output (from the track) back to the MIDI keyboard.
So disabling the MIDI output should solve the problem ...

But since it's not entirely clear to me from your post: is it working now? Or is there still a problem?
Solger,
Yes this is true when I disable the MIDI output for track 1 it resolves the issue. So 2 questions arise from this.
1) How do you record another track when track 1 or track x is silence? Are you supposed to use the FX instruments and play to that when recording another track? Is there a way to listen what was previously recorded?
2) Why does this not occurred in this same scenario when I'm using the Kurzweil? So basically using the Kurzweil as input and output for Track 1 & Track 2.

Thank you for All you help and Comments!!
John
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:22 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by JBKB View Post
1) How do you record another track when track 1 or track x is silence? Are you supposed to use the FX instruments and play to that when recording another track?
Basically you only arm the track you want to use for recording. And make sure that the MIDI input and input monitoring mode is set correctly for this track.
See link below.

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Originally Posted by JBKB View Post
...Is there a way to listen what was previously recorded?
Don't mute (or solo) the tracks you want to listen to. And make sure that the input monitoring is set correctly: http://www.reaper.fm/videos.php#ztr7B-PrUHY

And of course, you'll also need a FX instrument loaded on the track. Otherwise the recorded MIDI notes won't produce any sound during playback ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBKB View Post
2) Why does this not occurred in this same scenario when I'm using the Kurzweil? So basically using the Kurzweil as input and output for Track 1 & Track 2.
Probably because the Kurzweil doesn't route the MIDI through the ports (from the MIDI input to the output of the keyboard).
But you'll have to check the Kurzweil and Hammond manuals for specific info about how the MIDI routing for the IN/OUT-ports works.

Last edited by solger; 03-10-2017 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:45 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solger View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBKB View Post
So some how the output from track 1 is being re-recorded on track 2 if track 2's input is also the Hammond and track 1's output is the Hammond. This does not happen in this same scenario if track 1 & 2 input & output is the kursweil or track 1 is the hammond and track 2 is the kursweil.
Ah, OK. In your previous posts you didn't mention that you're also sending MIDI back to the keyboard. So I hadn't considered this being a possible issue
Quote:
Originally Posted by solger View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBKB View Post
Basically I see it as a loop:
coming out of track 1 and being feed back into track 2 if they are both hammond output and input. Hope that makes sense.
Yeah, most likely in this case (while recording track 2) the recorded MIDI notes from track 1 are played back and sent to the MIDI-In of the Hammond. Then sent back through the MIDI-OUT of the Hammond into track 2.

For just recording the MIDI input it's not necessary to enable the MIDI output or send MIDI output (from the track) back to the MIDI keyboard.
So disabling the MIDI output should solve the problem ...
Yes, it sounds to me that the MIDI sent from Reaper out to the Hammond is being routed back to the second Reaper track, along with any new notes played on the Hammond keyboard, just as solger said.

I would disable that loop-back within the Hammond if at all possible.

--------------
This might do it:
>>> https://i.imgur.com/wst8qyX.png
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:01 AM   #15
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No, it isn't selected, only track 1 or 2, on which I am currently on. There is no plugin loaded. I am using REAPER v5.35/x64.
Hi AlexGermany.

I did some testing here on a fresh install of Reaper v5.35. When I use the "insert new track at end of list" action here, it doesn't have the same effect as you describe in your posts. So I'm not really sure what might be causing this behavior on your computer. Especially why changing the MIDI input on track 2 changes the MIDI input on track 1 as well (when only one track is selected).

Is the MIDI input phenomena the same for all tracks when you insert, for instance, 3 or more tracks?
And do you change the MIDI inputs and outputs for the track also via actions? In this case which actions do you use?

Last edited by solger; 03-10-2017 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 03-11-2017, 02:31 AM   #16
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Hi!

Well, I am only using the shortcuts for the menues, so the actions should not be affecting this. I tried all the menuentries in the track menu to add a track, but it still is the same, I am having the issue on all following tracks. Just in this moment where I am writing this reply I found out, that when I tell Reaper to use all midi inputs on specified channel, it works. When I set Track 1 on "All Midi inputs" and set Channel to 1, then set up another track I get an fully new track with no settings and I can tell Reaper to use this as another midi track on Channel 2. The settings do not affect the other track. Mysterious.
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Old 03-11-2017, 03:38 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by AlexGermany View Post
Just in this moment where I am writing this reply I found out, that when I tell Reaper to use all midi inputs on specified channel, it works. When I set Track 1 on "All Midi inputs" and set Channel to 1, then set up another track I get an fully new track with no settings and I can tell Reaper to use this as another midi track on Channel 2. The settings do not affect the other track. Mysterious.
Yeah, very mysterious. Glad to hear you found a solution.
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Old 03-11-2017, 07:22 AM   #18
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Thanks Solger & DarkStar this all makes sense. Now I have a route to take and I'm not scratching my head wondering why it works one way on the Kurzweil and another way on the Hammond.

Thanks all time to go play again!!
John
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Old 03-12-2017, 10:34 AM   #19
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Yeah, very mysterious. Glad to hear you found a solution.
Yes, and for all that have the same problem another solution. This morning I thought of the settings of Reaper, especially the midi devices. My originally thought was, what happens when I turn of the ability to send control messages, but this option was already turned of, so I turned it on. And now? Yeah, right! Now I can set up tracks independend from other tracks, the settings do not affect other tracks anymore. Don't know why, although I have an Idea, but that is uninportant, because it works. :-)

A few weeks later I have to report that I'm desperate! Nothing seam to work! Everytime I think, Reaper does what I want to, it teases me again! Today I again tried to add one track and configured it, that worked, and then another track and configuring, all fine too! But now the third track takes the settings of the second track and when I change it, the second track takes the settings of the third. I don't know what to do! I don't want to use two different programs for using my synth and virtual instruments! What is this! Or...Maybe...Where am I wrong! Is there anyone who could help me maybe directly via Skype or something?

Last edited by AlexGermany; 03-25-2017 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 03-12-2017, 12:13 PM   #20
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Thanks AlexGerany...
From this replay and the other 2 I received from Solger & Darkstar I'll have plenty to experiment with. I was away this weekend now back and maybe I'll get a chance to review these all today if not next week. Again this is ALL great information.

Thank you All!!
John
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Old 03-18-2017, 09:57 PM   #21
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Hello All..
Very busy this week between work and working on my RV well anyway l finally got around to doing what Darkstar suggested in his previous post and it worked!!!

Damn, when I went into the MIDI setup I did have SEQUENCE selected but it was not activated. So tonight after testing my new MIDI cable I went to the area in the manual that DS pointed out and BINGO!! Once I activated the template of course.

Thank you DS and you too Solger pointed in the correct place just didn't know how to get there

John
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