Old 08-29-2014, 05:36 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by bluzkat View Post
One thing to remember, that a lot of people fail to get...

Ampsims have never been about a 'live' sound, they are designed to give you the equivalent of an amp's 'recorded' tone (the sound of a mic'd amp, into the board and out your monitors).

These are very different (recorded vs. live) and trying to chase that 'live' (amp in the room) sound with an ampsim is quite futile.

Even the high end stuff (AXE FX and Kemper) are designed with the recorded tone in mind, although the quality of these two units is a 'step above'.

[/rant]
Sorry, but I just don't buy that, no way.
I was there @ kvr when the folks with the short name and the long list of lookalikes first brought up that argument, as the ultimate argument to end all quality discussion.
It was wrong then, and it is still imho.
In the studio I listen to both through the identical monitors, an old but still pretty decent Gejelec 1031/7070 setup, GIK treated control room.
The real cabs and mics are sourced out to a soundproof recording room.
I also grab the amp out pre speakers via RedBox (uncompensated) and feed it via DI into the DAW for use with cab sims.
Let's take a setup everybody has in the emulation repertoire, and which is known from thousands of records :
4 hole non-master Marshall through a 412 with old Pulsonic Greenbacks

My personal results are as follows :
- # 1 is the real amp / cab, how's that for a surprise ?
- #2 is the real amp's speaker out DI (real cab only used as load, but not listened to) through a suitable Torpedo WOS or Redwirez cab, this comes scarily close, so close I often have to look up my notes to know which track was mic'ed and which used the cab sim. Both feel identical to #1 while playing, obviously #2 wins gloriously when it comes to variety, great for layering etc.
- #3 is S-Gear's Stealer, both with the built-in or external Redwirez or Torpedo cabs, needs a bit more adjustment when you change guitars, but sonically it definitely plays in a comparable league
To be fair, it's inspired by a Park 75, but many folks see that as the ultimate Plexi ever, so it qualifies for the test

Then there is a huge gap before the other sims, won't go into rating these, but the old Simulanalog 900 still holds its own quite well with a decent cab, and LePou's HyBrit also doesn't have to fear the commercial competition.

All this is only my personal experience, using Gibson, PRS, Fender guitars and aiming for classic rock / blues / country tone.
I can't speak for modern high gain or "heavier" guitar types.
My buddy's AxeFX II would be roughly in S-Gear territory, haven't had a chance to play a Kemper yet. Line6 and COSM sit comfortably somewhere in the main software ampsim category.

ymmv, certainly, but that's as apples-to-apples as I could get yet.
And it's the combined rating of a handful local colleagues.
cheers,
Rhino
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Old 08-29-2014, 06:15 PM   #82
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Sorry, but I just don't buy that, no way.
Not sure of which piece you are disagreeing but the majority of SIMs were built on recording beginning with the early analog versions SansAmp, HK and others. They were mostly developed to simulate recording a guitar amp. Line6 was the first to go beyond that with a live amp. At least the first that didn't sound like complete shit compared to many predecessors but that is more to do with the listener than the player.

Emulations often suffer one issue, trying to sound like a mastered final as noted by bluzkat. It's done to get the kids to hear what they heard on the record never really realizing it isn't what the guitar sounded like when hitting the proverbial tape. A real recorded guitar never sounds like that and may very well sound like crap soloed out of the mix depending. Sold them forever, it was painfully so.

At least with my real amps (boogie, marshal, egnator, fender) I can enjoy what it really sounds like while recording it and deal with what's left after recording it. Most of the recording tricks to date for all instruments are methods to make up for what gets lost in the translation and/or reproduction.

I also agree with whiteaxxe on the marshal loud amp thing, though I love the way it feels (like riding a Harley) recording them that way is as much folklore as fact. A huge number of great records were recorded at nominal studio levels, many times something like a fender champ. That player then hits the road with a Marshal stack because he now needs to play a football stadium and everyone oohs and ahhs LOL. I've gotten "recorded" sounds that were as massive at speaking level.
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Old 08-29-2014, 08:15 PM   #83
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What Karbo said. ^^^^

Prof. Rhino,

I'm not exactly sure what point(s) you were refering to either, but Karbo stated it nicely.

No problem, I guess I should have included "ymmv".


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Old 08-29-2014, 08:24 PM   #84
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hmm. have you ever heard of a phenomena called "louder sounds always better"?

so the thing is, if you are in front of a cranked up 50w Marshall or 30w Vox you cant say really if it "sounds good". its the ego and the "mine is bigger than yours" testosterone-driven mind of the guitarist. believe me, I am a guitarist. :-) at this volumes you cant hear any "sound", IT IS WAY TOO LOUD!! record that bullshit with a room mic and listen back at reasonable volumes ... what you hear is only "11 is one louder" - bullshit.

I have heard lots of examples of "that is the real sound of a real driven tube-amp". you know what?? delusional bullshit. it was all rubbish!! what do you think why for example Brian May uses in the studio a 500mw transistor car-radio build into a old hifi-shelf-speaker with a not working tweeter???

there are such a lot of myths about "real" guitar-tones and how to achive them and most of the proven (recorded) sounds are awful at best. be honest. above here in the thread someone has posted a soundexample. dont want to insult someone, but to think of that as a better than disgusting sound is delusional.

and there are no people on this earth that are so unrealistic and delusional as (electric) guitarists ... trust me, I am one.

so the real thing is: declare your sound as the holy grail and stick to it. that is how you make "great sounds". you tell everyone that it is so. :-))) job done.
I think we heard enough out of you in saying that tape sucks. And now cranked amps suck, too? How about you put your sound where your mouth is.
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Old 08-29-2014, 10:20 PM   #85
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....
there are such a lot of myths about "real" guitar-tones and how to achive them and most of the proven (recorded) sounds are awful at best. be honest. above here in the thread someone has posted a soundexample. dont want to insult someone, but to think of that as a better than disgusting sound is delusional.
That's this post Here, and it was me that posted it.

Maybe I wasn't clear or I implied that that sound didn't need to be run through an amp/cabinet sim - that's not what I meant. I was trying to demo the tube pre plugin, so that track is like the output of a pedal like a big muff pie or a tube screamer direct into the console.

The intent is to take the output of that plugin and run it into an amp and cabinet sim with a clean/low gain setting to get your end sound much in the way you would do with a distortion or overdrive pedal.

In retrospect, yeah, probably would have been a better idea to take a few seconds and load up the amp/cab sim before recording and uploading the track - live and learn I guess.
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:22 PM   #86
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hello karbomusic and bluzkat,
what I was referring to :
the myth that you can't / shouldn't compare ampsims to the real thing, because they are somehow different in concept, making them sacrosanct and kinda immune against criticism.
In my eyes / ears that's pure marketing BS, invented by those who have to fear comparison.
When done correctly (I tried to outline my personal method) you absolutely can and should compare the sim to the original, that's simply part of the concept of simulation ...
Btw, I have never heard Mike Scuffham use that type of argumentation, go figure.
In the rare case however that somebody is brave enough to make a software amp without trying to cash in on the legendary status of certain hardware, this software amp can only be judged on its own merits, not how well it does "legend xy" tone.

no offense meant to you at all, but I easily get suspicious when marketing departments try to take over public opinion, isn't Reaper's concept the exact opposite - relying on quality instead of aggressive marketing ?
cheers, and as always ymmv,
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:28 AM   #87
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Steve Martin (the comedian) once said that talking about music is like dancing about architecture, and I think the same holds true for sound in general. Here's a crazy thought: Instead of only talking about amp sims, what they are intended to do, what they are capable of, how about some demonstration? Everyone here has some amps sims and the means to record them, and obviously plenty of time to argue about it. How about we divert some of that arguing time into demonstration time? - putting sound where your mouth is. It's one thing to claim what an amp sim can do, and it's another to show it. What's the worst that can happen? We might learn something concrete, instead of endlessly filling pages with words (dancing about architecture). Maybe we'll even settle some of these petty arguments that tend to end up in perpetual regurgitation.

Or not.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:32 AM   #88
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^^^^^^ There ya go! ^^^^^^ Sounds like an awesome suggestion!
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:53 AM   #89
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I'll second that Brainwreck! I don't have much in the way of physical tube amps here though. I'd love an AC30 though and a Fender Champ.
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Old 08-30-2014, 01:40 AM   #90
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I'll second that Brainwreck! I don't have much in the way of physical tube amps here though. I'd love an AC30 though and a Fender Champ.
Maybe you can get there with sims?

Does this sound like an overdriven vox? Might it work in a mix?

https://app.box.com/s/klmvgamhbzn7135lqcu4
amp sim: podfarm a-30 top boost
cab sim: amplitube hiamp /w 414 and bottle 563 mic sims and some mid room ambience

Think it could do a real recorded vox sound like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Q2WN6YbYY Especially check out how gnarly that amp gets during the chorus.

Maybe hearing that riff through the sim setup will make it easier to decide if it sounds right: https://app.box.com/s/lsrmj58ejaydi3qnjnhq
Or dial the gain back to sound more like the opening riff (but less like the chorus): https://app.box.com/s/6yansvwslllzvpnowmif
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Old 08-30-2014, 02:35 AM   #91
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Maybe you can get there with sims?

Does this sound like an overdriven vox? Might it work in a mix?

https://app.box.com/s/klmvgamhbzn7135lqcu4
amp sim: podfarm a-30 top boost
cab sim: amplitube hiamp /w 414 and bottle 563 mic sims and some mid room ambience

Think it could do a real recorded vox sound like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Q2WN6YbYY Especially check out how gnarly that amp gets during the chorus.
Unfortunately, I have very limited internet data allowance at the moment so YouTube is out but I did have a listen to the mp3. The clean part of the sound is reasonably good but the overdrive isn't too convincing. It breaks up much too quickly and is too brittle. A real VOX is much smoother in its transition from clean to overdriven with a lot more detail.
Back in the mid 90s, I was the engineer for a band called Smokin' Joker (I also played keyboards with them during rehearsals) and we did a lot of touring and bigger outdoor gigs (Hells Angels in Broadford in 95 and quite a few similar). The lead guitarist used an AC30 and a Strat and the singer/rhythm guitarist used a Fender Twin and a Tele. I got to know the sound of a Strat straight into an AC30 with an EQ pedal for solo boosting quite intimately.
The closest I have to that here in my studio is actually a VOX AC30 Amplug. Those little unassuming devices are AMAZING for recording and I've used it on quite a few of my recent tracks which are on my band website. I also have a VOX LEAD Amplug which is just as good and have used that for lead solos on my latest tracks.

I did a fairly long guitar solo (about four and a half minutes long actually!!) on 'Narrow is the Way' and that was a combination of VOX AC30 Amplug into Wah pedal and into VOX LEAD Amplug.
The guitar solo starts at roughly 4:27 and builds up as it progresses.
Album link is http://ausdisciples.com.au/mserver/j...300&height=250

Also on the same album, if you have a listen 3:27 into 'When the Son of Man Comes,' I played the rhythm and lead parts through a VOX AC30 Amplug. At 6:22, you can hear the rhythm part during my guitar outro more clearly. I played more sparsely on the lead part there.
I'm also playing acoustic, drums and bass on that track and drums/bass/Wurlitzer 200A/Hammond/lead and rhythm guitar/analog synths on 'Narrow is the Way'. A good friend of mine played the sax solos including the big one from 11:45 to the end.
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Old 08-30-2014, 02:41 AM   #92
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It breaks up much too quickly and is too brittle. A real VOX is much smoother in its transition from clean to overdriven with a lot more detail.
I agree. Rather than turning into grippy/hairy monster with harder pick attack, it goes into a hash.
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Old 08-30-2014, 02:49 AM   #93
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I agree. Rather than turning into grippy/hairy monster with harder pick attack, it goes into a hash.
That's a pretty good description of the real thing!
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Old 08-30-2014, 02:55 AM   #94
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One thing to think about with amp sims is that impulse responses are going to provide a frequency response, but not speaker breakup, dynamic reaction, or the other nifty things that speakers can do. A compressor in the chain can help things to breathe a bit (I prefer between the amp sim and cab sim), but it can't replicate what a speaker does.
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Old 08-30-2014, 02:57 AM   #95
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hello karbomusic and bluzkat,
what I was referring to :
the myth that you can't / shouldn't compare ampsims to the real thing, because they are somehow different in concept, making them sacrosanct and kinda immune against criticism.
In my eyes / ears that's pure marketing BS, invented by those who have to fear comparison.
You are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. I don't have the time or the energy to beat this old dead horse.


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Old 08-30-2014, 03:01 AM   #96
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You are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. I don't have the time or the energy to beat this dead horse.


Come on bluzkat. You got time to post, you got time to upload a riff or two. > Group effort. We might learn a few things.
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Old 08-30-2014, 08:31 AM   #97
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sure, why not ?
http://www73.zippyshare.com/v/39095349/file.html
just a quick clip I recorded to torture a student with tomorrow, playback based on a multitrack from http://www.karaoke-version.com/
no sim, like I wrote I usually record amps but use S-Gear for practicing at home.
Mesa Heartbreaker emulating a Deluxe , 212 w. WGS Reaper & Reaper HP (sorry, that's their real name , think Gold Alnico & EV SRO), Studio Projects C1 & Samson ribbon @ ca 10" from the baffle, PRS EG with Fralin Dominos, a tiny bit of limiting, delay & UA 224 itb, business as usual.
Guitar's a tiny bit too loud to make it easier for the student.
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Old 08-30-2014, 08:50 AM   #98
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Clean? I think you forgot to turn your amp on.
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Old 08-30-2014, 09:04 AM   #99
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Clean? I think you forgot to turn your amp on.
sure, whatever the song needs ...
and these tones are not so easy to emulate, sims tend to either sound dull or overly sterile with that stuff ime.
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Old 08-30-2014, 09:10 AM   #100
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sure, whatever the song needs ...
and these tones are not so easy to emulate, sims tend to either sound dull or overly sterile with that stuff ime.
Rhino
Just a little amp humor. I honestly know next to nothing about clean sounds. I might see if I can dial in that sound to see what you mean.
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Old 08-30-2014, 10:16 AM   #101
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Taking a listen to the guitar in that 'Drinker' song, it's a little on the dark side with just enough gain to compress it, without sounding dirty, and just a hint of room. It's a nice tone. I think I could get a poorman's (podfarm) approximation of it.
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Old 08-30-2014, 10:19 AM   #102
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Here's a clip of something I've been messing around with. I used the Knucklehead amp from AcmeBarGig with the Mercuriall 3.0 cab. Amp settings are Input-cranked all the way up, Bass, Mid, Treble at 12 o'clock, Power-cranked all the way up, Master at 19.19. The Treblemaster is off.

The Mercuriall Cab is set to X50, SM57, Cap. Power level set to default, More Dynamics set to about 75%, In set to about 80%, Out set to default.

I played this on my inexpensive Modern Player Telecaster in the bridge position. Played the part twice, with the exact same settings on both channels, panned hard left and right. Just the amps and cab, no EQ, comp, or anything else.

I wasn't going for a specific sound, just noodled until I heard something I thought was cool.

https://app.box.com/s/1omz98lkxox7erg992g3

***EDIT*** BTW, I played the drums with my recently purchased Aerodrums, triggering Addictive Drums in real-time, and no MIDI editing! I have a ways to go in the drumming department!

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Old 08-30-2014, 10:21 AM   #103
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The way I see it there are 3 main reasons to turn the speaker up louder when recording it:

1. Microphone compression via approaching overloading the mic specifications / diaphragm flattening
2. Increased room tone due to louder volumes being returned to the mic from the room
3. Makes your guitarist happy. He will stop bothering you, at least about that.
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Old 08-30-2014, 10:21 AM   #104
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edkilp, check your link.
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Old 08-30-2014, 10:26 AM   #105
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The way I see it there are 3 main reasons to turn the speaker up louder when recording it:

1. Microphone compression via approaching overloading the mic specifications / diaphragm flattening
2. Increased room tone due to louder volumes being returned to the mic from the room
3. Makes your guitarist happy. He will stop bothering you, at least about that.
Some guitar speakers sound their best with a little breakup, too. And power tube/output transformer saturation, of course. Cranking an amp up to it's sweet spot has nothing much to do with ego, as was stated by another poster. And big tube amps do sound different than small tube amps (tube configuration, I mean).
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Old 08-30-2014, 10:26 AM   #106
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edkilp, check your link.
What's wrong with it? Takes me to the sound file. What do you see?
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Old 08-30-2014, 10:27 AM   #107
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What's wrong with it? Takes me to the sound file. What do you see?
You're logged into box (why you see the file). It goes to the login page. Copy/paste the file's share link.
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Old 08-30-2014, 10:30 AM   #108
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Try again, please.
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Old 08-30-2014, 10:33 AM   #109
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Try again, please.
Working. Sounds nice for a sim - like a mid-gain marshall.

Edit: edlkip, what happens with that sound when you dial the gain back to say, half of what it is? It might help AudioWonderLand in getting a Black Crowes sound.
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Old 08-30-2014, 10:43 AM   #110
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Turning up...

It's the limiting and compression effect of the actual speaker itself, my little Blues Jr. does a great job of this, very noticeable for that particular 10" speaker, less so if I use another cab. Also, the soft clipping of the power tubes but that one is solved with a lower wattage amp. Preamp tubes typically aren't much other than a built in distortion pedal but some think it is mojo. Even some tube marshals use the same method as a rat or tube screamer to clip the preamped signal... diodes in the marshal case, red LEDs. The point being made is that pre clipping, pedals, pre gain etc. is a completely different thing than power clipping. Former very easy to do, latter gets tougher hence the reason a transistor pedal sounds great through a tube amp but much harder with a full transistor amp.

There is also lots of munging between the time when the only way to get soften transients was to turn the amp to max in the pre, pre-gain days. There was no other way outside of a fuzz box to get that sound. That limitation disappeared 40 years ago yet people still think that loud = magic. Some of it is, much of it misconception. All that being said, you still don't need a 50 watt stack to do most of this. You need the stack for the 4x12 low end meat of a closed box of that size though but that doesn't require flexing the walls of the studio with 130 dB of guitar.
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Old 08-30-2014, 11:03 AM   #111
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but that one is solved with a lower wattage amp.
Not necessarily. Power tubes do have different sounds between their make up, i.e., a pair of EL34's will sound different than a pair of el84's when cranked to their sweet spots.


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Preamp tubes typically aren't much other than a built in distortion pedal but some think it is mojo.
Again, it depends on the tubes and circuit.

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All that being said, you still don't need a 50 watt stack to do most of this. You need the stack for the 4x12 low end meat of a closed box of that size though but that doesn't require flexing the walls of the studio with 130 dB of guitar.
Lots of people used both bigger amps and smaller amps, at their sweet spots. If a smaller amp has the sound you want, no need for a bigger one and vice versa. You don't need a stack any way with a 50 watter. A pair of 12's can sound great. A single 12 can sound great.
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Old 08-30-2014, 11:28 AM   #112
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Not necessarily. Power tubes do have different sounds between their make up, i.e., a pair of EL34's will sound different than a pair of el84's when cranked to their sweet spots
I have amps/circuits where you can blend and/or swap between precise tube choices in real time. The sum of the parts aka the circuit they are a part of make a much, much larger difference.

They made fun of all this in Spinal Tap for good reason LOL.
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Old 08-30-2014, 11:41 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I have amps/circuits where you can blend and/or swap between precise tube choices in real time. The sum of the parts aka the circuit they are a part of make a much, much larger difference.
That's why most builders build around a particular output transformer and power tube compliment. You can get the best of one world, or compromise for more choices. It's also why so many builders stick to classic amp circuits.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:03 PM   #114
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It's also why so many builders stick to classic amp circuits.
They do that for the same reason wheels are still round, they care much more about it continuing to work (as in not failing) with a proven design... Amp makers are the worst for getting caught up in their own mojo A) they believe it and B) it sells gear. Thusly, the need to record at very high levels remains the exception when considering the end result of that recording in a mix. The rest is lots of fun, I participate in it but it just isn't as critical as typically sold.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:18 PM   #115
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Working. Sounds nice for a sim - like a mid-gain marshall.

Edit: edlkip, what happens with that sound when you dial the gain back to say, half of what it is? It might help AudioWonderLand in getting a Black Crowes sound.
https://app.box.com/s/6dcl91tmdlqyffj4erbr

Just cleans up a bit. I'm able to get several really nice semi-clean, kinda dirty, not too buzz-sawy tones from just this one amp sim by messing with the input, power, and that treblemaster thingy that Ken put on these old plugins.

The amp sims in the AcmeBarGig Classic Hybrid Line are actually pretty good. MeatHead is fantastic, but I've found that the cab impulse I select really makes a difference with that one. I tried HeadCase, and I really didn't get much joy from it. SHRED is pretty versatile amp sim as well. I'll post some other amps that I use a little later.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:19 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
They do that for the same reason wheels are still round, they care much more about it continuing to work (as in not failing) with a proven design... Amp makers are the worst for getting caught up in their own mojo A) they believe it and B) it sells gear. Thusly, the need to record at very high levels remains the exception when considering the end result of that recording in a mix.
I would say that most builders do it because the designs are proven (in sound, reliability, maintenance) and sought after because they are proven. Of course, amps being made by humans, amp buidling is going to have it's share of FUD.

I won't completely argue against 'loud'. I know that alot of detail gets lost, especially for us recording on cheap gear and in not so ideal spaces at home. But in a nice studio, with plenty of space for a big amp to breathe, and maybe the band recording as a group, it definitely makes sense.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:24 PM   #117
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https://app.box.com/s/6dcl91tmdlqyffj4erbr

Just cleans up a bit. I'm able to get several really nice semi-clean, kinda dirty, not too buzz-sawy tones from just this one amp sim by messing with the input, power, and that treblemaster thingy that Ken put on these old plugins.

The amp sims in the AcmeBarGig Classic Hybrid Line are actually pretty good. MeatHead is fantastic, but I've found that the cab impulse I select really makes a difference with that one. I tried HeadCase, and I really didn't get much joy from it. SHRED is pretty versatile amp sim as well. I'll post some other amps that I use a little later.
That's not too bad, but it sounds a bit hard (not compressing, not clipping dynamically). That's what I heard when I tried Meathead at lower gains, too. Meathead sounds much better with more gain (as you demonstrated), as most amp sims do, imo. I would love to have one that transistions from clean'ish to mid-gain, smoothly and without the hash.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:24 PM   #118
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I won't completely argue against 'loud'.
I think that's a fair statement, I love it loud just ask the guys in my band.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:38 PM   #119
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Btw, I took a blues junior to an amp tech once (he worked on mostly classic amps), and he booed me a little - told me to bring a real amp next time.

What was this thread about, again? Oh yea, the op was trying to get stones/black crowes sounds from freeware.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:40 PM   #120
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The first all-transistor amps that didn't sound completely horrible were the Peaveys. I had one head called 'The Musician' in about '73. But it didn't sound great either. They blew a lot, too. I also had an Acoustic (brand) guitar amp. That company mainly known for their bass amps then, but they were about the first very to put out a dual-channel guitar amp, and the lead ch. in particular sucked bad. Bad, bad, bad. Transistor distortion back then just didn't cut it. Much, much better these last 20 years or so.

The first amp sim plugins were NOT made for live. But, you know, guitarists were going to make a go of it and try. I don't do live with my S-Gear but I have a couple friends who do all the time now and having great results. Sim plugins were first made to solve the problem of recording realistic sounding electric guitar leads and such without the hassle of placing a mic or two and needing live amps and all that involves. Simple as that.
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