Old 08-29-2014, 12:01 AM   #41
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Maybe I'm in the minority (maybe not), but this stuff bothers me:
This quote is just plain old BS, it's not harder at all to create a local account. During setup you get the choice to do so when asked to sign in. If there is no internet connection setup will create a local account and from within the OS You get the option to set up a local account.

The argument that you are forced into the store is also nonsense. There is no change or difference as far as installing applications goes in the desktop environment, the store is purely for the modern UI where it makes perfect sense.

Windows 8.1 is pretty much exactly like Windows 7 (but much better under the hood) in the desktop environment, all the haters conveniently choose to ignore or just not tell you this to try and make their scare tactics stick.

There really is no argument to not use Windows 8.1 IMO. It's solid, well behaved and has a smaller footprint than anything that came before, including WIN7. anyone throwing anything against it at you has never actually used WIN8 and is just parroting whatever they picked up from other parrots.
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:06 AM   #42
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The startmenu-thing is really just about unfamiliarity.
Once you understand it's just the previous start-menu that has expanded into a layer of it's own, then it's not a big deal.
Really works much the same way as before.

Now getting into bios on the other hand, that's for hardcore PC-enthusiasts only in win8
Exactly, I have all my important shortcuts to documents and applications not important enough for the taskbar there and they're all one button click away.

The BIOS thing applies only if you run UEFI really and then it's pretty much as it is intended to run, you have to be fast with the DEL button. My PC boots to the desktop from being off in about 5 seconds (faster when coming out of sleep) and I like it that way..
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:45 AM   #43
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Don't think I'll be moving off windows 7 64 bit. Putting in 8gb of ram an ssd for the operating system makes it go like sh@t off a shovel...

Maybe Windows 9, although what's the betting that they put even more bloat ware and 'windows features to tie you to their store'. Even then I'd give it a year until the first service pack is beta tested by early adopters !

Windows 7 just works.
Yep. I want no part of stores on my desktop. When I want to shop, I prefer to do it without having it shoved in my face and without submitting my desktop activity to big tech.

9 might arrive in 2015, and as you say, give it a while to pan out, assuming that it continues with the windows version pattern of every other one. I'm skeptical that the pattern will hold, given the big push by tech in recent years: more invasion, less privacy, because they know what is best for us (and their bank accounts).

In the meantime, plenty of smartasses (used endearingly) are still running XP without major issues.
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:02 AM   #44
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This quote is just plain old BS, it's not harder at all to create a local account. During setup you get the choice to do so when asked to sign in. If there is no internet connection setup will create a local account and from within the OS You get the option to set up a local account.

The argument that you are forced into the store is also nonsense. There is no change or difference as far as installing applications goes in the desktop environment, the store is purely for the modern UI where it makes perfect sense.

Windows 8.1 is pretty much exactly like Windows 7 (but much better under the hood) in the desktop environment, all the haters conveniently choose to ignore or just not tell you this to try and make their scare tactics stick.

There really is no argument to not use Windows 8.1 IMO. It's solid, well behaved and has a smaller footprint than anything that came before, including WIN7. anyone throwing anything against it at you has never actually used WIN8 and is just parroting whatever they picked up from other parrots.
Why would windows users want to unncessarily 'scare' other windows users out of using windows? Makes no sense to me. Some longtime windows users have genuine concerns with microsoft's intended direction, which is right in step with big tech's head in the cloud. I have been using windows on my own machines since windows 98, and I was introduced to windows via 3.1/95. I first tried 8 in RC; hated the gui from the get-go. I didn't know about the privacy and security concerns at the time.

I wonder how many windows users have a microsoft account since moving to 8, how many have a microsoft store in their os, how many tossed the default gui, how many have known to disable 'smart search'. It is your desktop, right? Ironically, I'll quote Richard Stallman, here: Malicious technology can't be excused if it has some good effects.
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:09 AM   #45
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I installed Classic Shell on W8 and got rid of the Metro stuff.
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Old 08-29-2014, 03:07 AM   #46
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In the meantime, plenty of smartasses (used endearingly) are still running XP without major issues.
Except for that software you wanted that won't run on XP.

For myself, I'll stay on Win7... it does what I need and my system is as solid as a rock.


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Old 08-29-2014, 06:02 AM   #47
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My main recording and mixing box is still xp I'm heavy on the uad side of things so memory is not a problem. I have windows 7 on my music computing keyboard full of midi synths and all other production needs are handled with krome and motif boards. My main system is just to solid for me to jump every time a new os comes out. I will only jump when I have to but for now press play and record lets get it in!!
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Old 08-29-2014, 06:38 AM   #48
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I first tried 8 in RC; hated the gui from the get-go.

I wonder how many windows users have a microsoft account since moving to 8, how many have a microsoft store in their os, how many tossed the default gui,
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Yep. I want no part of stores on my desktop.
There is no store on the desktop which you are forced to use, there is no difference between WIN8 and WIN7 desktop really. Unless you can't read or do not read past the first sentence setting up an offline account is easy and the default if you set up without an active internet connection or by not selecting to use it when asked.

It seems you fall in the category of people who made up their minds OVER TWO years ago (RC was made available to the public March 2012) and have not bothered to update it since even though many, many changes have been implemented which have for the most part taken away any of these arguments if they were valid in the first place.

The modern GUI aside WIN8 (you do not have to go to the startscreen _ever_ if you choose not to) is a vast improvement over WIN7 in most cases any way and certainly as far as performance and resource footprint is concerned which should appeal especially to people doing audio work on their system.

The whole argument of security/monitoring and whatever else is IMO at best overrated but more like complete nonsense and will only restrict you in your options. Quite honestly, the chances of your conversations here or elsewhere on the internet are far more likely to be picked up on and/or monitored then from what your OS will share with your Microsoft account. SO I'd suggest that if this worries you you stop coming here and basically disconnect from the internet all together.

In general terms there's no arguing ignorance or a closed mindset on this topic though, if you're set in your opinion, no matter what changes or happens, it will not be possible to have a rational conversation on this.
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Old 08-29-2014, 09:59 AM   #49
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There is no store on the desktop which you are forced to use, there is no difference between WIN8 and WIN7 desktop really. Unless you can't read or do not read past the first sentence setting up an offline account is easy and the default if you set up without an active internet connection or by not selecting to use it when asked.

It seems you fall in the category of people who made up their minds OVER TWO years ago (RC was made available to the public March 2012) and have not bothered to update it since even though many, many changes have been implemented which have for the most part taken away any of these arguments if they were valid in the first place.

The modern GUI aside WIN8 (you do not have to go to the startscreen _ever_ if you choose not to) is a vast improvement over WIN7 in most cases any way and certainly as far as performance and resource footprint is concerned which should appeal especially to people doing audio work on their system.

The whole argument of security/monitoring and whatever else is IMO at best overrated but more like complete nonsense and will only restrict you in your options. Quite honestly, the chances of your conversations here or elsewhere on the internet are far more likely to be picked up on and/or monitored then from what your OS will share with your Microsoft account. SO I'd suggest that if this worries you you stop coming here and basically disconnect from the internet all together.

In general terms there's no arguing ignorance or a closed mindset on this topic though, if you're set in your opinion, no matter what changes or happens, it will not be possible to have a rational conversation on this.
I won't feed the troll, but I will refute misinformation.

Said issues from a fresh install of windows 8.1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce2dvDS-Tew&t=3m00s

Privacy issues? Check. 3:04
Pushing for a microsoft account? Check. 3:10
Store on the desktop at startup? Check. 4:00
And you see that start button at 4:03? It required an absolutely epic amount of complaints from users to have it put there, some 2 years later.

These are not functions of an os. It is pushing and prying at users. But don't take my word for it (which you aren't). Windows 8 has not been well received, by the numbers: http://www.computerworld.com/article...with-flop.html
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Old 08-29-2014, 10:30 AM   #50
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Another fresh install view (pause where necessary): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC-I7BBbEBY&t=0m53s
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:21 AM   #51
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So, the person installing in the first video bypasses express settings and then accepts all options provided to limit information being shared and then knowingly enters his existing Microsoft account. The video you mention in your second post actually goes into that and is very clear on what these options do and how they benefit you in general.

What this does not show is that when you choose to create and account you are clearly asked if you want an online account or else go with an offline account. Same happens when you enter a non existing account there. Your second video actually clearly shows this and it also shows you come across this option before you actually hit next to set up the account. See http://youtu.be/RC-I7BBbEBY?t=4m24s

Again, you basically copy what someone else claims/says/does and present it without actually knowing the facts. or even bothering to check your own 'facts'

Oh and 'by the numbers' WIN8 actually has a far higher adoption rate then, oh say OS X mavericks and is about on par with what XP and 7 did in their first two years. The percentages really mean nothing when you take into account the huge amount of XP machines which run 'less then legally' and will likely never get updated. Stats can be spun either way and the press loves a sad story more than a happy one.

It's like Apple claiming they are doing so much better in sales while the numbers actually tell us that Windows out-sells OS X by about 8:1 today or while they boast a 90+ % of adoption rate for iOS7 the numbers show that the number of Android phones which are on KitKat is actually a mulitude larger.

You do not use Windows 8 so you really do not know what you are talking about and in the process spread misinformation and plain false statements which in turn may wrongly influence others.

You are NOT required to create an online account and you are NOT required to use any part of the modern UI. I hear very few Apple users moan and b*tch about the appstore being on the taskbar when they install a mac while they do not need to use it. You are free to remove the modern UI apps from the taskbar if you so desire.

Frankly, like with XboX, MSFT has dumbed down WIN8 to a point where the moaners and ingnorant few who seem to happen to be the loudmouths have very little to b*tch anymore. Still haters gonna hate..

If you wish to stay with WIN7 for whatever reason that's fine, perfectly fine even. If you want to critique WIN8 at least know what you are talking about or at least have some first hand experience. Problem with that is though that once you do you find you were actually wrong all along and just stick with it as it's fine.

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Old 08-29-2014, 11:36 AM   #52
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I have a Windows 8 machine here for which I just did a fresh install last week (not mine...yackk). I know what is there and what isn't. I have used other Windows 8 machines, going back since the RC. I know what is in Windows 8 (a bunch of bs).
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:38 AM   #53
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Well, your copy of WIN8 obviously is different from mine then..


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Old 08-29-2014, 11:42 AM   #54
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Here you go. Avoiding the microsoft acount (watch closely): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd9PGuN7esk

And because the above is so intuitive (tongue in cheek), here is another method: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwEFU0cIEUQ
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:05 PM   #55
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Nothing to 'avoid' or work around.. You are offered a choice to not use a MS account if you for whatever reason decide you do not want to have one or use one.

Doing so will in NO way impact the use of the desktop environment, although it will obviously limit (automated) access to Microsoft services and sites through IE or when using the modern UI. It will also require you to make sure your data and details are in a backup or whatever of your own and will not allow you to access whatever your create or set up on the PC from elsewhere unless you set this up yourself as well.

So there you have it. If you choose to be paranoid and have a closet full of tin foil hats you can still set up WIN* and not auto connect to MSFT services.. I would suggest you stay away from the internet all together though.. Just to be safe..


Me, I'm just glad I can live in Europe and when I buy a phone or tablet ,say in the US (or anywhere with an internet connection), all my contacts, documents, settings, apps and other important data is there for me without the need for anything but my MS account login.

If my house burns down tonight and I buy a new PC, I log in and have my exact setup back with all the important bits including my music and audio work (which is all stored on OneDrive).
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:19 PM   #56
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Win8 is a rock solid, resource friendly OS for audio and is running nicely for a lot of happy users, myself included.

For those who really want to turn off the Metro apps completely, streamlining things even further, it is a simple registry tweak (which I have already posted).

Here's a screen grab proving the Metro apps are completely disabled with this simple tweak...



Those who really dislike W8 don't have to use it but please stop trying to convince others that it is a failure. Vista was, W8 isn't, simple really.
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:23 PM   #57
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^^THIS .. and thanks..

Vista was not really a failure as much as it got of to a rocky start though
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:26 PM   #58
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Those who really dislike W8 don't have to use it but please stop trying to convince others that it is a failure. Vista was, W8 isn't, simple really.
It's spyware from the core, is what it is, with a bad interface that requires tweaking to be useable. The numbers say that it is fail (right there with Vista), as do many users, or would be users. Why try to convince other people to use it? Just be happy with it yourself.

XP is solid in performance. Many say that 7 is rock solid in performance... Some people even claimed that Vista is solid in performance. 8 has good boot/resume times for sure. But it has other crap along for the ride.
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:47 PM   #59
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It's spyware from the core, is what it is, with a bad interface that requires tweaking to be useable. The numbers say that it is fail (right there with Vista), as do many users, or would be users. Why try to convince other people to use it? Just be happy with it yourself.

XP is solid in performance. Many say that 7 is rock solid in performance... Some people even claimed that Vista is solid in performance. 8 has good boot/resume times for sure. But it has other crap along for the ride.
I am happy with it myself. So are a lot of others. Some have posted that here. If you don't like it, I'm fine with that but it is NOT a failure for many who use it successfully and efficiently.

I've been using Windows since 3.11 too. Actually, I've been using Microsoft OS's since the early 80s. Vista and ME were the two worst I've used (ME was much worse than Vista though). Win 7 and Win 8 have been the best with Win XP in between (I still have a Win XP machine here).
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:49 PM   #60
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^^THIS .. and thanks..

Vista was not really a failure as much as it got of to a rocky start though
Vista ran OK on my laptop and was reasonably stable but it was just too bloated. I wasn't unproductive with it though and used it for a couple of years prior to Win7.
Win7 runs much better on the same laptop (which now dual boots 7 and XP).
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:51 PM   #61
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It's spyware from the core,....
Google and Facebook are FAR more in the spyware category. The interwebs are not a place to be if you are paranoid about privacy that much (which I am not).
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:08 PM   #62
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Google and Facebook are FAR more in the spyware category. The interwebs are not a place to be if you are paranoid about privacy that much (which I am not).
Microsoft is competing with them in spades with Windows 8. They got you at the os level.

And according to that logic, merely using an os connected to the internet isn't any place to be if you expect privacy, either. Nevermind visiting websites. I find it unbelievable how people can actually argue against privacy.
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:16 PM   #63
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Microsoft is competing with them in spades with Windows 8. They got you at the os level.

And according to that logic, merely using an os connected to the internet isn't any place to be if you expect privacy, either. Nevermind visiting websites. I find it unbelievable how people can actually argue against privacy.
I'm at a point where I really couldn't care less what they know about me to be honest. They know everything about all of us anyway. I have nothing to hide and I don't fear death!!
If you're that worried, don't even contemplate using a mobile phone. They can be triangulated easily and the data intercepted easily no matter what OS they use.
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:20 PM   #64
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I'm at a point where I really couldn't care less what they know about me to be honest. They know everything about all of us anyway. I have nothing to hide and I don't fear death!!
If you're that worried, don't even contemplate using a mobile phone. They can be triangulated easily and the data intercepted easily no matter what OS they use.
Funny you should say that...never owned one. Yea, I'm that guy.
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:21 PM   #65
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Your arguments are flawed, baseless and debunked several times over. You mentioned feeding trolls a few posts back. I guess it's time to stop doing that.

If you are not comfortable connecting to a MS account in Window 8 there is a straight forward and simple way to do so and you have actually provided a link to several videos showing this. If set up like that WIN8 pretty much works like WIN7 so I really have no idea what makes you think otherwise except you are just out to troll this subject to death.
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:30 PM   #66
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Your arguments are flawed, baseless and debunked several times over. You mentioned feeding trolls a few posts back. I guess it's time to stop doing that.

If you are not comfortable connecting to a MS account in Window 8 there is a straight forward and simple way to do so and you have actually provided a link to several videos showing this. If set up like that WIN8 pretty much works like WIN7 so I really have no idea what makes you think otherwise except you are just out to troll this subject to death.
Your arguments are flawed, baseless and debunked several times over.
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:32 PM   #67
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Your arguments are flawed, baseless and debunked several times over. You mentioned feeding trolls a few posts back. I guess it's time to stop doing that.

If you are not comfortable connecting to a MS account in Window 8 there is a straight forward and simple way to do so and you have actually provided a link to several videos showing this. If set up like that WIN8 pretty much works like WIN7 so I really have no idea what makes you think otherwise except you are just out to troll this subject to death.
+1.

Edit because... "The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters."
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:36 PM   #68
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So Dave, does the Classic Shell make it look and feel like Win7?
Classic shell makes the start menu and most of the Win 8 gui react exactly like win7. I'd be lost without it on a W8 box. I Can't stand the new gui.

Funny, I remember thinking similar thoughts about the Win 7 interface post XP. But within a couple days I acclimated and then preferred win 7. I have worked on many win8 boxes this year and I just cannot get used to it. I believe that is because the metro interface "actually" SUCKS as opposed to just being unfamiliar.

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Old 08-29-2014, 01:37 PM   #69
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This thread got me wondering what the adoption rate of Win8/Win8.1 was. It isn't that good. Have a look here at article from July 1 2014.
http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-...ying-microsoft
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Old 08-29-2014, 02:18 PM   #70
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Classic shell makes the start menu and most of the Win 8 gui react exactly like win7. I'd be lost without it on a W8 box. I Can't stand the new gui.

Funny, I remember thinking similar thoughts about the Win 7 interface post XP. But within a couple days I acclimated and then preferred win 7. I have worked on many win8 boxes this year and I just cannot get used to it. I believe that is because the metro interface "actually" SUCKS as opposed to just being unfamiliar.
I pretty much agree with you on all points here. In addition, the one thing I still DON'T like about W8 even with Classic Shell is the lack of Aero. I really don't like the flat look.

Even so, I like W8 a lot for many reasons, the most notable being its efficiency and low resource usage. I have REAPER running at the moment, playing in the background. Photoshop was running as well (for the screen grab I posted) and Thunderbird is also running, as is RME TotalMix FX window. Google Chrome is running with multiple tabs open. Task manager is running monitoring my internet data usage and I have a very long USB cable running to my RME Fireface UFX through a USB 3 hub which is connected my Logitech wireless keyboard and mouse, to my mobile phone for internet access AND a Roland UM One MIDI interface and not a single audio glitch even at low latencies!
...and that all on a Sony Viao Duo 11 convertible tablet!
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Old 08-29-2014, 02:21 PM   #71
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I believe that is because the metro interface "actually" SUCKS as opposed to just being unfamiliar.
Unless you need it you pretty much never ever have to see the Modern UI or the start screen. as a desktop environment WIN8 is pretty much the same as WIN7 but under the hood the improvements are significant.

You can select to not see any Modern UI apps on the desktop taskbar and can remove the ones there by default (basically only the store). The next iteration of Windows will apparently not even make the modern UI available in a desktop environment and will return the Startmenu for those who think they need it.
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:09 AM   #72
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If you are seriously worried about privacy, then you need to move out of the US altogether, don't use ANY cell phone, and don't use the Internet. Even then, you have to get off the grid completely. No credit cards, etc.

You could use public landline phones and public wifi Internet, but you are still taking a risk with security cameras, etc.

Just getting out of the US would be a major first step though, and even that is being made harder to do.

And that's all I'll say about that......
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:20 AM   #73
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The network adapter on my win8 laptop will NOT stay on when using my Verizon Internet mobile box. I have to constantly reset it. I've tried everything I know to do with no luck.

I can use public wifi, or other people's mobile boxes, etc. But for some reason it won't stay on with my Verizon box. Which makes it a pain when I need to update my programs. I've been going to the library just to update stuff.

My wife's win7 laptop has given us NO issues at all and I still consider putting Win7 on my laptop. But that would also include having to install all my recording programs again. No fun.
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:40 AM   #74
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If you are seriously worried about privacy, then you need to... move out of the US altogether, don't use ANY cell phone, and don't use the Internet. Even then, you have to get off the grid completely. No credit cards, etc.

You could use public landline phones and public wifi Internet, but you are still taking a risk with security cameras, etc.

Just getting out of the US would be a major first step though, and even that is being made harder to do.

And that's all I'll say about that......


...not roll over and take it as if the people of the world have no influence on what happens in it.
Fixed for ya.
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:55 AM   #75
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You should not get out of the US no, you should support companies who publicly defy their government's attempts to pry into your daily lives, even if information on that is not within US borders or even within US jurisdiction.

Companies like Microsoft who refuse to comply with and fight a court order to provided mail contents stored on European servers. To my knowledge MSFT is the only company who actually and specifically states in their T&C that your data belongs to you.

http://blogs.technet.com/b/trustwort...ou-not-us.aspx
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Old 08-31-2014, 07:33 AM   #76
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I just wish Windows 9 would get here and FAST! I'm sick of everything Microsoft has done in the last 2 or so years ... and I will want the Aero look back for 9. Win 8 looks butt ugly to me.


As for the last two posts here, I'm even more fed up with the complete invasion of privacy we've been having, perpetrated by mainly the U.S. I have already taken several steps to protect. WHO do these government snoids think they are anyway? America needs to be hauled in some UN court or somewhere and fined up the ying-yang for all these violations of laws and rights. The idiot 21st century, and stupid stuff like this is STILL tolerated? I agree: companies, individuals -- rebel, disobey, refuse to take it anymore. America today is (or soon will be) as bad as Red China during the '70s.
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Old 08-31-2014, 07:34 AM   #77
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You should not get out of the US no, you should support companies who publicly defy their government's attempts to pry into your daily lives, even if information on that is not within US borders or even within US jurisdiction.

Companies like Microsoft who refuse to comply with and fight a court order to provided mail contents stored on European servers. To my knowledge MSFT is the only company who actually and specifically states in their T&C that your data belongs to you.

http://blogs.technet.com/b/trustwort...ou-not-us.aspx
The same standards to which you hold the government don't apply to businesses such as Microsoft? How is it ok for Microsoft to pry into our daily lives, while it is bad for government to do so?

Btw, as far as we can tell from the documents leaked by Snowden, Microsoft was the first of the big tech companies to comply with the PRISM program. Also, all of these companies denied involvement with government surveillance until more leaked documents showed that they were lying. Only after that point did these companies begin to publicly announce fighting compliance with mass government surveillance, while they continue to do the same themselves.

Government says that it does it to 'fight terror'. Business says that it does it to 'improve user experience'. Government can't do it without the help of business. As Bruce Schneier said, "The NSA woke up and said ‘Corporations are spying on the Internet, let’s get ourselves a copy’”.
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Last edited by brainwreck; 08-31-2014 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:12 AM   #78
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I'm afraid there aren't enough people left who are willing to stand up to what is happening. Too many are happy with how things are so they won't fight against it. Plus, in America, too many are afraid of a man's skin color, the IRS, and the "Justice" Dept.

The Constitution and laws are becoming more irrelevant every day. But that's the fundamental change we voted for.....yes we did.

I'll shut up now....I'm sure the NSA has more important targets to track today.
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:29 AM   #79
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I think a lot of people just have enough on their plate making it through this world and they feel like, what the hell can I, as an individual, do to stop the government, or corporations, from doing whatever they can?
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:10 AM   #80
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I think a lot of people just have enough on their plate making it through this world and they feel like, what the hell can I, as an individual, do to stop the government, or corporations, from doing whatever they can?
We can all do much as individuals and as a collective if we stay consciously positive. And keep using Windows 8.1 and Reaper, of course. It's been the best and most solid DAW yet in my journey with Windows and Reaper.
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