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03-28-2014, 04:57 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 376
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Mastering - increase lowest volume
You can apply compressors with different settings to compress the loud parts of the audio when mastering. But is there a good technique for increase the very lowest parts of a track? I know I can apply a compressor with a low ratio and set the threshold low, but I want to keep the audio with medium volume as uncompressed as possible. Also, I know I can increase the volume by manually go through the item, split and set the volume individually for each item. But this is not a good solution when the volume varies a lot throughout the whole song. I have tried applying an expander and set it to work up to a specific level. Although it did what I want, I think the sound lost a little clarity and felt a little unnatural. Any good tips?
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03-28-2014, 05:23 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Northeast Michigan
Posts: 3,460
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You could set up an envelope to bypass the compressor when you don't want it.
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03-28-2014, 06:29 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
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Why not using an upward expander ? Unless i'm missing something, i't's the purpose of such devices (increasing lowest volume).
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03-28-2014, 06:40 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic
Why not using an upward expander ? Unless i'm missing something, i't's the purpose of such devices (increasing lowest volume).
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Yes, I have tried that but wasn't very happy with the result:
"I have tried applying an expander and set it to work up to a specific level. Although it did what I want, I think the sound lost a little clarity and felt a little unnatural."
But maybe I should tweak a little more on the expander-settings and see if it is possible to achieve a better result.
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03-28-2014, 06:43 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffsounds
You could set up an envelope to bypass the compressor when you don't want it.
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The compressor will not compress at this low level so I'm afraid I wouldn't hear any difference.
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03-28-2014, 07:04 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
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Yes, i'd recommend trying again with an expander.
Maybe also with a RMS compressor with low RMS settings + autogain, but i fear it will sound even less nice than with a properly set expander.
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03-28-2014, 02:04 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,271
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Sounds like you want parallel compression. In Reaper it's easy. Strap on the compressor and smash the bejeezus out of the signal, then turn the mix knob down until you get the transients back where you want them.
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03-28-2014, 02:47 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
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A bit of naming confusion here I think...
Expanders always increase dynamic range, if you want to increase the lowest parts you want to decrease overall dynamic range so you need an upward compressor not an upward expander (upward expander makes the loudest parts louder).
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=11
As ashcat suggested, parallel compression is similar in result to upward compression.
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03-28-2014, 03:35 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osflaa
You can apply compressors with different settings to compress the loud parts of the audio when mastering. But is there a good technique for increase the very lowest parts of a track? I know I can apply a compressor with a low ratio and set the threshold low, but I want to keep the audio with medium volume as uncompressed as possible. Also, I know I can increase the volume by manually go through the item, split and set the volume individually for each item. But this is not a good solution when the volume varies a lot throughout the whole song. I have tried applying an expander and set it to work up to a specific level. Although it did what I want, I think the sound lost a little clarity and felt a little unnatural. Any good tips?
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Relative Treshold ?
I would work with the sidechain. Set your threshold for the loud parts and patch something in the side chain to expand the softer parts to the compressor threshold. Softknee would help and maybe a bandpass first in the sidechain. And then tweak around. Just my quick thoughts which could be stupid.
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03-28-2014, 03:56 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish
A bit of naming confusion here I think...
Expanders always increase dynamic range, if you want to increase the lowest parts you want to decrease overall dynamic range so you need an upward compressor not an upward expander (upward expander makes the loudest parts louder).
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Yes, but there are dynamic processors that can be a gate/expander/compressor/limiter at the same time by drawing a freehand in/out curve. So it's easier to talk about what it does within small signal level segments than giving it a correct name.
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03-28-2014, 06:17 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osflaa
...But is there a good technique for increase the very lowest parts of a track?...
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People are way over-complicating this. The device you are looking for is called a volume knob. If you want the quieter parts louder, turn up the volume.
On the other hand, if what you want to do is to turn up the softer parts IN RELATION TO the louder parts, the technical term for that is COMPRESSING THE DYNAMIC RANGE. And the tool that does this job is called a compressor (definitely not an expander, which does the opposite).
Quote:
...Also, I know I can increase the volume by manually go through the item, split and set the volume individually for each item...
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Again, that would be compressing the dynamic range, you're just doing it by hand instead of with an automatic tool. It's what mix engineers do when they ride the faders.
Frankly, I suspect you are over-thinking everything.
Have fun.
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03-29-2014, 01:29 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yep
People are way over-complicating this. The device you are looking for is called a volume knob. If you want the quieter parts louder, turn up the volume.
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Making a volume envelope would of course be the best solution, but when the dynamics is rather complex it would take a loong time to make it sound natural.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yep
On the other hand, if what you want to do is to turn up the softer parts IN RELATION TO the louder parts, the technical term for that is COMPRESSING THE DYNAMIC RANGE. And the tool that does this job is called a compressor (definitely not an expander, which does the opposite).
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It's no doubt that the overall effect I'm aiming for is compression of the signal. But I didn't say I have to do everything by using one tool. The overall effect of an expander + a compressor can be compression.
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03-29-2014, 02:07 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 749
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Did not really understand your question in the first place, thought way to complicated. So you want to compress and raise the gain a lot ?
Are we talking about the old skill of faderriding?
Anyway, take a look at VOLA, a js Plugin.
http://jsplugins.supermaailma.net/
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03-29-2014, 02:19 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
Sounds like you want parallel compression. In Reaper it's easy. Strap on the compressor and smash the bejeezus out of the signal, then turn the mix knob down until you get the transients back where you want them.
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Search the net for parallel compression or NY compression. It is what you want
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03-29-2014, 02:25 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinodXAgent
Did not really understand your question in the first place, thought way to complicated. So you want to compress and raise the gain a lot ?
Are we talking about the old skill of faderriding?
Anyway, take a look at VOLA, a js Plugin.
http://jsplugins.supermaailma.net/
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The only thing I want is to increase the volume of the most quiet parts of a song without affecting the other parts (I want the medium level signals to be as little compressed as possible). Volum riding/volume envelope would be the best solution, but when the dynamics in a song is complex it would take very much work to achieve a good natural sounding result. So I wonder if there are other approaches to this?
Edit: I will have a look at the plugin!
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03-29-2014, 02:28 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amagalma
Search the net for parallel compression or NY compression. It is what you want
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Yes, I know what parallell and NY compression is, but haven't tested it in this case yet. But I will! :-)
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03-29-2014, 02:36 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hungary
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i think this is what the Dolby does (in encoding mode), on 4 bands. (CAT22 / SR cards at least)
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03-29-2014, 04:53 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 23
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Maybe this would help?
Neodynium a different type of compressor by Elemental Audio Systems.
I'm pretty sure the company is now defunct but the plugin works pretty good for me.
Like I said, the company went tits up but if you look around the usual haunts I'm sure you'll find it.
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03-30-2014, 11:57 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Thanks for all your replies! The best solution seems to be a combination of parallell compression and volume envelope. I feel I loose a little clarity when parallell compressing, but I probably have to compromise a little.
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03-30-2014, 09:47 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osflaa
...It's no doubt that the overall effect I'm aiming for is compression of the signal. But I didn't say I have to do everything by using one tool. The overall effect of an expander + a compressor can be compression.
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You do know that an expander does does the exact opposite of what you described in the OP, right? It DECREASES the gain of the lowest-level stuff.
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03-30-2014, 10:48 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yep
You do know that an expander does does the exact opposite of what you described in the OP, right? It DECREASES the gain of the lowest-level stuff.
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If applied over the whole input range, yes. But you can define that very low input levels are the most expanded part. Then they will be amplified.
Edit: The ratio curve on the picture shows how this can be done. Input signals below the break point will be expanded while input signals over the breakpoint will be very slightly compressed. The lowest signals will be amplified relative to the higher signals.
Last edited by osflaa; 03-31-2014 at 12:33 AM.
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03-31-2014, 07:10 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osflaa
Thanks for all your replies! The best solution seems to be a combination of parallell compression and volume envelope. I feel I loose a little clarity when parallell compressing, but I probably have to compromise a little.
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Use slower compressors and more stable ones. The clarity is lost due to the fast amplitude modulation the compressor causes.
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03-31-2014, 07:24 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aesis
Use slower compressors and more stable ones. The clarity is lost due to the fast amplitude modulation the compressor causes.
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Thanks for your advice, I will try!
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03-31-2014, 09:11 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: canada
Posts: 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osflaa
I know I can increase the volume by manually go through the item, split and set the volume individually for each item. But this is not a good solution when the volume varies a lot throughout the whole song.
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I would consider that it is indeed a good solution. It just takes a bit longer.
You could also use a volume envelope instead of doing splits and setting gain. Yes it might be a lot of surgery but you can get the results you want with it!
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04-07-2014, 09:03 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osflaa
Thanks for your advice, I will try!
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Yeah, the fact is though I am not sure if a stable compressor exists - it would require very long attack and release times for sure.
For this reason, parallel compressor is great. When the signal is above the threshold- you won't hear the compressor at all. When it's below the threshold you won't again hear the really annoying amplitude modulations since the compressed signal is so far below the original, giving you the clean signal. This acts as a transient designer as well : ).
But really, volume envelope is the way to go for balancing a track IMHO. Compressor is more for polish...
Last edited by Aesis; 04-07-2014 at 09:09 AM.
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04-07-2014, 09:18 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I'm in a barn
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Re-mix the damn thing such that the levels are what you actually want.
DUH!
...or...
embrace your inner dynamic range.
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04-07-2014, 01:15 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James HE
Re-mix the damn thing such that the levels are what you actually want.
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This would definately be the very best solution. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the mix.
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04-07-2014, 04:54 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 7,239
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Mastering is not maximizing volume. Mastering is more complex and different than that. Just saying... I just had to say it because I often see people mentioning they are doing mastering when they mean just compressing and destroying some good audio.
If you need dramatic dynamics change, then yes, you should automate volume first. It would make life easier for the compressor.
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04-07-2014, 10:42 PM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heda
Mastering is not maximizing volume.
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That's true, but this thread has nothing to do with maximizing volume.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heda
If you need dramatic dynamics change, then yes, you should automate volume first. It would make life easier for the compressor.
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+1
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04-08-2014, 05:19 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Kent, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osflaa
This would definately be the very best solution. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the mix.
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If you don't have access to the mix you might have to do some very intricate volume automating. Could you post the track up for listening so that we can make specific suggestions for the problems?
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04-08-2014, 05:57 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4
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Expander wont work it increases dynamic range. The first thing I would always go for is to remix the thing. If you don't have access to the original mix then I would tell the mixer to do it again. If you can't do that then Unfortunately compression (reducing dynamics) possibly with multiband compression, dynamic eqing targeting those frequencies and some tricky automation wizardry would be the next best thing.
Why don't you post it up? maybe someone here can help?
Uugh Sorry I didnt see this post +1
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladerunner
If you don't have access to the mix you might have to do some very intricate volume automating. Could you post the track up for listening so that we can make specific suggestions for the problems?
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04-08-2014, 07:00 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladerunner
Could you post the track up for listening so that we can make specific suggestions for the problems?
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Thank you for offering this, but the project is now finished. I ended up doing it the time demanding way, volume automation. I have talked to the artist and the next time I will do both the mixing and mastering.
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04-24-2014, 10:09 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 133
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maximizing RMS for internet mixing
Reaper really needs an upward compressor
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