Hitting wall with Reaper

[Anomaly]

I'm at the end of rope with Reaper now.
Nearly 1.5 years ago I reported a compatibility problem with Reaper and Windows 8(.1): http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=124192
Since then there has been not a single message that anybody else has experienced anything similar. Unfortunately, for me this is complete and absolute showstopper. I haven't been able to finish mixing our album or do anything serious with Reaper at all since this problem introduced itself. During this time I have changed my computer hardware, and hoping that the issue would go away. But in vain.

As a summary:

- I can't load my old projects or make new songs because Reaper "loses" my RME9632 ASIO inputs and outputs upon project loading. Of course this is not true, as my ASIO I/O works fine in any other software even at the same time!
The more memory project is taking, the sooner the issue surfaces. When reaper.exe is more than 1.5GB, it's most likely that my ASIO I/O is gone after reloading. All my songs are larger than that.

- There is absolutely no setting I can set to make it work.

- Using Reaper x64 instead, and firewalling all plugins seems to work, but introduces another critical issue: Reaper randomly (and too often) freezes when hitting play, giving an "apphang" error in windows.

- Using ASIO4ALL doesn't work either because WDM entries are disappearing too.

- Using WASAPI driver instead of ASIO results a back-to-desktop-crash upon project loading. Even when it doesn't crash, it stops producing audio output after n amount of minutes.

- Apparently I can't go back to Windows 7 x64 anymore (where everything worked fine).

- Can't afford a new audio interface and hoping that the issue goes away.

- Can't afford to buy $$ plugins/synths to replace all freeware that may or may not be escalating the issue. Giving up with bootsie plugins alone causes serious degradation in my mixes. Also causes massive effort to remix all songs again from the scratch. I can't do that at the moment.

- Can't afford to buy a new DAW software from big names.

- There is no reason to expect it to ever get fixed: Not a single report of similar issue. Not known whether the issue originates from Reaper, Windows 8, RME, sun spots, or combination of all these.

I would appreciate suggestions (if there is any) how to sort this out, other than giving up. The current situation is very frustrating and unworkable.

Thanks

[JHughes]

Sorry man, I feel your pain. I recently reported a bug (non-showstopping though) and who knows what will happen. Anything I've reported in the past that got fixed, got fixed with no notification.

Good luck!

[jazzmandan]

Sorry to hear your pain, but....

I don't understand why you think this is a Reaper problem. You say the ASIO works fine with Win 7, but when you update to Win 8 the problems arise. Sounds like a driver issue. So why are you not beating on the door of the ASIO driver? Reaper doesn't make the drivers for ASIO, your hardware audio interface makes this. What is being said over in their forum http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewforum.php?id=4

Here are their drivers downloads:
http://www.rme-audio.net/old/english...htm#HAMMERFALL

I don't see a win 8 driver. Which one are you using?

[serr]

Originally Posted by Anomaly

Apparently I can't go back to Windows 7 x64 anymore (where everything worked fine).

I can't help you solve your Windows issues and I'm guessing OSX is not an option with your hardware...

But, what is the reason you can't go back to your working setup with your previous OS? Is this a new computer and the CPU is not supported by Win7?

Otherwise the first thing I would do is clone my old OS back to my system drive of choice and then start troubleshooting the new setup adding one new part at a time.

Is this a DOA situation where nothing works or are you "hitting the wall" after 100's of tracks and plugins?

[Anomaly]

Greetings,

I don't understand why you think this is a Reaper problem. You say the ASIO works fine with Win 7, but when you update to Win 8 the problems arise. Sounds like a driver issue. So why are you not beating on the door of the ASIO driver?

As I stated in my first post, only Reaper thinks there is a problem with the driver. I can access the ASIO without problem in any other ASIO capable program at the same time when Reaper sits clueless where did the I/O go? But of course it still could be very much possible that the cause is in the driver. The nasty thing is, there is no certainty of it because the very peculiar nature of this problem. In my opinion, Reaper is definitely behaving strangely, too. I have updated every possible driver from rme, of course.

But, what is the reason you can't go back to your working setup with your previous OS? Is this a new computer and the CPU is not supported by Win7?

For everything else I do with my computer, I wish to use Windows 8. My win8 is an upgrade license, so legally I can't install and activate win7 while using it. Yet, at some point sooner or later, Win7 should be upgraded anyway. In my opinion there is no excuse for actively developed software or drivers not work with latest operating systems.

[serr]

Originally Posted by Anomaly

For everything else I do with my computer, I wish to use Windows 8. My win7 is an upgrade license, so legally I can't install and activate win7 while using win8. Yet, at some point sooner or later, Win7 should be upgraded anyway. In my opinion there is no excuse for actively developed software or drivers not work with latest operating systems.

Actually... OS builds are not developed specifically for power DAW users and especially the consumer OS that is Windows. You can't even assume stuff like that for OSX! If anything the usual scenario is most DAW apps lagging behind the newest OS by about a year.
I do agree with you that everything should just work perfectly here in 2014. But back to reality...

Same computer hardware then?
My suggestion wasn't to abandon the new OS, but a path for troubleshooting.
Just don't let it call home (ie. keep it offline) if you fire up the old OS to help you track this down.

The other option would be to put both systems on different partitions (or another drive) and use OS7 for Reaper until things 'catch up'. The point is getting back to work quickly - not running the newest whatever.

[Dannii]

Originally Posted by serr

....
The other option would be to put both systems on different partitions (or another drive) and use OS7 for Reaper until things 'catch up'. The point is getting back to work quickly - not running the newest whatever.

That is pretty much what I was going to suggest Anomaly. Dual boot. Even if you have to purchase another Win 7 license, at least you'd have REAPER working again for you. I know you shouldn't HAVE to do that but perhaps that might be better than pulling your hair out trying to get Win 8 working for you.

I wish I could offer you something else but Win 8 & REAPER & RME is working great here.

On a positive note, your REAPER plugins are invaluable to me. VOLA especially gets used on nearly all my projects.

[ivansc]

You are not going to want to hear this but I have had zero issues running RME HDSP9652 under Win 7 8 and 8,1 with Reaper 64bit.

I don't use the freebie synths you are using and I quit using the 32 bit versions of the other stuff you have in place.

Are you SURE you are using the latest driver from RME? You should be on version 4.04 by now, also of course make sure you upgraded the firmware.
If you are still on version 3 something as you claim, that is likely your problem.

http://www.rme-audio.de/en_downloads...s_driver_hdspe

This will get you to the current versions of firmware, drivers and totalmix.

[chip mcdonald]

I run x32 Reaper specifically so I can use certain old VSTis. It's not that big of a deal, everything is stable, I've only got 8gb of memory but it seems enough.

I have a machine at my office that runs XP because it's a single processor mb with PCI slots. I have to do that because I have a MOTU 24 I/O whose PCI card does not work in multiprocessor motherboards. That's not Reaper's fault.

Given that there is evidence that other people are using Win8, with your particular device, and who knows how many are using Reaper in general.... there must be something wrong with the configuration of your machine.

[jazzmandan]

"...I can access the ASIO without problem in any other ASIO capable program at the same time when Reaper sits clueless where did the I/O go?"

Ya, I caught this in the original post. It was my understanding that most ASIO will not run at the same time in two different apps. Is this other app therefore stealing the I/O?? Just a thought.

[Anomaly]

I see there are some users with Win8 and older RME cards. Would you be so kind and do a little test for me?

I have prepared a project file that bugs out every time for me. Try open it and see if it works for you.

This project needs one plugin, NastyVCS: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4063301/NastyVCS_1.0.1.zip
There are 32 tracks with Reaverb and NastyVCS on each. Please make sure NastyVCS is not running firewalled. This means you need a Reaper x86 to do this test.

If it doesn't cause any issues, please try to duplicate the tracks, say... 40, then save and reopen.

Here is the project:
https://stash.reaper.fm/v/22317/asioerror.zip

[G-Sun]

I use Rme hdsp 9632 on win 8.1 x63, reaper latest x32

I've had a similar issue, where the drivers goes blank.
It was after latest driver/firmware-upgrade.
And I couldn't downgrade.

Seems to come when changing latency.
Restart Reaper seems to fix.

Had zero problems latly when sticking to one latency.

..don't know if it helps

[chas51]

try emailing RME support?

[Anomaly]

It was my understanding that most ASIO will not run at the same time in two different apps. Is this other app therefore stealing the I/O?? Just a thought.

When the issue arises, there are no other ASIO hosts running. I can open another ASIO host after the issue has surfaced just to see if the ASIO driver is really not working. And it is working just fine, only Reaper loses it.

Are you SURE you are using the latest driver from RME? You should be on version 4.04 by now, also of course make sure you upgraded the firmware.

Yes, the latest version is in use. All driver versions have behaved the same.

Given that there is evidence that other people are using Win8, with your particular device, and who knows how many are using Reaper in general.... there must be something wrong with the configuration of your machine.

Yeah, that is the strangest part. This is happening with 2 completely different machines. The only thing that remains the same is Reaper (any version), and RME (any driver version) and Windows 8 (or 8.1). Yet I'm the only person on this planet to experience it.

[Dannii]

Originally Posted by Anomaly

I see there are some users with Win8 and older RME cards. Would you be so kind and do a little test for me?

I have prepared a project file that bugs out every time for me. Try open it and see if it works for you.

This project needs one plugin, NastyVCS: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4063301/NastyVCS_1.0.1.zip
There are 32 tracks with Reaverb and NastyVCS on each. Please make sure NastyVCS is not running firewalled. This means you need a Reaper x86 to do this test.

If it doesn't cause any issues, please try to duplicate the tracks, say... 40, then save and reopen.

Here is the project:
https://stash.reaper.fm/manage_file/22317/asioerror.zip

Looks like you linked to the file from your Stash user account file management page so it wasn't downloading here. I did a search and found this... https://stash.reaper.fm/v/22317/asioerror.zip

Downloaded and the project just crashes REAPER (32 bit) completely when I try to load it here.... and yes, I have Nasty VCS (I have all the VoS plugins).

[Dannii]

Turns out my crashes were a RAM issue. I only have 4GB on this rig and it didn't like opening 32 instances of ReaVerb!!

Do you get the ASIO errors with ALL your projects or only some? Perhaps it is a RAM issue causing your problems.

[Anomaly]

Originally Posted by ReaDave

Looks like you linked to the file from your Stash user account file management page so it wasn't downloading here. I did a search and found this... https://stash.reaper.fm/v/22317/asioerror.zip

Oh, thank you for correcting it .
Hmm, so this is just a general crash. You could try it without my project too, if you have time for it. Just insert NastyVCS and some other variety of sound plugins to a track and duplicate it until reaper.exe uses more than 1.5gb in task manager. Then save and reopen. Usually making Reaper window inactive (= closing asio driver) and then back active again will trigger the issue too.

Thanks for trying anyway!

[Anomaly]

Originally Posted by ReaDave

Turns out my crashes were a RAM issue. I only have 4GB on this rig and it didn't like opening 32 instances of ReaVerb!!

Do you get the ASIO errors with ALL your projects or only some? Perhaps it is a RAM issue causing your problems.

The only way I could understand it that there is a problem with Reapers own memory management. It happens with many plugins WHEN project size is more than about 1.5gb. And even then, it's weird that reaper thinks that I have no ASIO I/O. There is no crash.

[Dannii]

I just tried saving it with all the VCS still online but offlining all the ReaVerbs. Then reopened and enabled ReaVerb one channel at a time. I got to 24 tracks and RAM usage maxed out but then I enabled track 25 and RAM usage dropped back (perhaps the swap file kicked in?) and I was able to continue to online all 32 tracks of VCS and ReaVerb without issue.

I'll try saving 25, 26, 27 etc track versions and reopening and see what happens.

[Dannii]

If I open REAPER first and then open the project, it loads fine with all 32 tracks. Even though RAM maxes out, I get no ASIO errors and the project plays.

If I close REAPER and try to open the project from the project file, REAPER tries to load everything and either crashes or stops loading and sits there with a spinning circle cursor until I force quit it.

[Dannii]

I just tried opening the 24 track version with REAPER closed and then opening via double click on the project file and BINGO! The project opens but NO ASIO inputs or outputs show in my audio preferences dialogue.

Here's a screen grab...

[Dannii]

It looks to me like this is a RAM handling issue. I closed the project and the ASIO i/o came back without restarting REAPER. Then, when I relaoded the 24 track project, the i/o disappeared again. This is completely reproducible here with my FireFace UFX.

[cerendir]

Originally Posted by Anomaly

until reaper.exe uses more than 1.5gb in task manager

Can x86 REAPER actually use any more RAM than that, even on an x64 system? I seem to remember strange things starting to happen when projects approched this number back when I was on XP and REAPER x86.

Just a thought.

[Fex]

I have to question whether 32 reverb plugins are necessary to the project. If it can be loaded with them offline, then it might be a good idea to reconfigure the project so that several tracks can send to a single reverb. Reducing the burden on the computer should make the project manageable.

[Dannii]

Small update: This may not be an RME problem. I was able to reproduce the problem using ASIO4ALL and got 'Not Connected 1' for the inputs and outputs.

I use ASIO4ALL with Realtek onboard sound when I'm not using my RME Fireface.

[Dannii]

Originally Posted by Fex

I have to question whether 32 reverb plugins are necessary to the project. If it can be loaded with them offline, then it might be a good idea to reconfigure the project so that several tracks can send to a single reverb. Reducing the burden on the computer should make the project manageable.

This is only a test project designed to stretch the limits of the computer in order to reproduce the problem easily which it does here.

[Anomaly]

Originally Posted by ReaDave

This is only a test project designed to stretch the limits of the computer in order to reproduce the problem easily which it does here.

Yes, as Readave said this is just a test project to EASILY bring the issue forward for others to test. In a real world there is no 32 reverbs. They are just to make memory usage higher for the issue to show up.

[Anomaly]

Originally Posted by ReaDave

I just tried opening the 24 track version with REAPER closed and then opening via double click on the project file and BINGO! The project opens but NO ASIO inputs or outputs show in my audio preferences dialogue.

Here's a screen grab...

BINGO! There you have it! Thank you very much for confirming this.

Can x86 REAPER actually use any more RAM than that, even on an x64 system? I seem to remember strange things starting to happen when projects approched this number back when I was on XP and REAPER x86.

@cerendir, yes it can. At least Win XP and Win7 can. I used to run projects using around 3GB of memory on x86 system.
As for Win8, I don't know what has changed?

[rvman]

Originally Posted by Fex

I have to question whether 32 reverb plugins are necessary to the project. If it can be loaded with them offline, then it might be a good idea to reconfigure the project so that several tracks can send to a single reverb. Reducing the burden on the computer should make the project manageable.

Busses,Busses,Busses. Try putting all drums through a drum bus with one reverb on the bus channel. Take off the reverbs on each drum track.

[cerendir]

Originally Posted by Anomaly

@cerendir, yes it can. At least Win XP and Win7 can. I used to run projects using around 3GB of memory on x86 system.
As for Win8, I don't know what has changed?

Weird. I could never run any projects bigger than ~1.5GB in XP, even with the /3GB switch. Maybe it depends on which plugins are used.

[Dannii]

With 25 tracks of the ReaVerb/NastyVCS test project, REAPER is using around 3.5GB RAM here. It is around that point that I get this ASIO error consistently.

Here's a screen grab of the RAM usage:

[Anomaly]

Originally Posted by ReaDave

Small update: This may not be an RME problem. I was able to reproduce the problem using ASIO4ALL and got 'Not Connected 1' for the inputs and outputs.

I use ASIO4ALL with Realtek onboard sound when I'm not using my RME Fireface.

Yeah, the tricky part is to determine who do you turn to?
How can you profoundly conclude that the cause is:
A) Reaper
B) RME
C) Windows

When you contact Reaper support, they will suggest that the problem is B or C. When you contact RME support they will more likely think the problem is A or C. And when you contact Windows support they think it must be A or B...

[Dannii]

Originally Posted by Anomaly

Yeah, the tricky part is to determine who do you turn to?
How can you profoundly conclude that the cause is:
A) Reaper
B) RME
C) Windows

When you contact Reaper support, they will suggest that the problem is B or C. When you contact RME support they will more likely think the problem is A or C. And when you contact Windows support they think it must be A or B...

I think we can rule out B because I'm getting the error with ASIO4ALL and Realtek HD audio too.

[Anomaly]

Originally Posted by ReaDave

With 25 tracks of the ReaVerb/NastyVCS test project, REAPER is using around 3.5GB RAM here. It is around that point that I get this ASIO error consistently.

Here's a screen grab of the RAM usage:

When you use more tracks (and more plugins) the issue may show up on even less memory usage. The typical project I mix is more than 40 tracks (drums...) and plenty of plugins on them.

[Dannii]

I can give this a try on my studio rig later on (I really need to get to bed right now, been up all night!).
My studio rig is running Win 7 64 bit with REAPER 32 bit. I'll try it with my Mackie Onyx Firewire desk and see if I can reproduce the problem using our test project.

I can also try it on my older laptop too. That is running Win 7 32 bit and REAPER 32 bit with Mackie Onyx ASIO.

[plush2]

I've tried several times using your test project with WASAPI, ASIO4All (realtek HD), my focusrite ASIO drivers and nothing I can do will make this crash/misbehaviour happen. I've started to play with the driver load/unload options in Preferences/Device but I haven't hit on anything yet.

My guess as you can see above is that there may be a bug to do with a particular setting in your preferences as opposed to others. Have you tried a clean install, with none of your usual preference import/tweaks?

What are the specs of the two systems (now 3 I suppose) that this is occurring on?

Mine (which is not misbehaving) is an intel i5 with 8 gb of ram and a 256 gb ssd drive using Reaper 4.75 64bit.

[Dannii]

Originally Posted by Anomaly

When you use more tracks (and more plugins) the issue may show up on even less memory usage. The typical project I mix is more than 40 tracks (drums...) and plenty of plugins on them.

I haven't noticed it at all previously and I regularly mix projects with up to 100 tracks and plenty of plugins. I can only get this issue to show when the RAM usage approaches the limit.

[Dannii]

Originally Posted by plush2

...
Mine (which is not misbehaving) is an intel i5 with 8 gb of ram and a 256 gb ssd drive using Reaper 4.75 64bit.

Intel i5 here too. 128GB SSD, 4GB RAM and REAPER 4.75 32 bit.
Have you tried REAPER 32 bit?

[DarkStar]

Originally Posted by Anomaly

Yeah, the tricky part is to determine who do you turn to?
How can you profoundly conclude that the cause is:
A) Reaper
B) RME
C) Windows

When you contact Reaper support, they will suggest that the problem is B or C. When you contact RME support they will more likely think the problem is A or C. And when you contact Windows support they think it must be A or B...

Create (and upload) the equivalent test projects in another DAW.

[plush2]

Originally Posted by ReaDave

Intel i5 here too. 128GB SSD, 4GB RAM and REAPER 4.75 32 bit.
Have you tried REAPER 32 bit?

I just tried and 32 bit does indeed crash. I'm not even going to speculate as to why. Just confirming the buggy behaviour then.