Old 03-05-2012, 04:32 PM   #1
plgrmsprgrs
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 2,021
Default Do I need a Bigsby?

There are times when I'd like to add a bit of modulation to a chord when playing guitar. It's not a regular thing. But, I'd like to have the option available when the urge strikes.

So, I've been thinking about installing a Bigsby 700 on my Alleykat. Is there a fairly straightforward way to achieve the same effect with a tuning plugin? Or is the tailpiece the best option?

Thanks,
Kyle
__________________
"Same as it ever was . . . " - David Byrne
plgrmsprgrs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2012, 05:11 PM   #2
Keith-Little
Human being with feelings
 
Keith-Little's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 29
Default

The Bigbsy is just too cool. It's got a different thing going on than any whammy bar I've ever come across. I have a mid 60's Gretsch 6120 and the Bigsby is the coolest. Check it out on anything that has one equipped - you'll be hooked!
__________________
/keith -- Reaper on the Mac -- M-Audio-FTU8R
Keith-Little is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2012, 05:42 PM   #3
Melton Glass
Human being with feelings
 
Melton Glass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: MPLS,MN,USA
Posts: 1,985
Default

Neil Young could have anything in the world,and he uses a Bigsby,and P90s(like your Allekat).You could probably sorta pull off that kind of vibrato with a plugin,but it sounds tricky and failure prone.

You don't need a Bigsby,but I'll be happy to tell your wife that you do!
__________________
I'm too busy to disagree with you right now.

An idea, an hour, a microphone-http://soundcloud.com/melton-glass
Melton Glass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2012, 05:46 PM   #4
trevlyns
Human being with feelings
 
trevlyns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rhode Island, New England
Posts: 1,665
Default

If it's only subtle, holding the body tightly and "bending" the neck with your chord hand (provided its in the top half of the neck) works fine for me - and its free!
__________________
Retired Home Music Producer
Sample Projects https://soundcloud.com/trevs_audio
trevlyns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2012, 05:47 PM   #5
Jedi
Human being with feelings
 
Jedi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 1,598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trevlyns View Post
"bending" the neck with your chord hand works like a dream
especially if you play an SG

Jedi
__________________
I'm simply no longer here
Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2012, 07:23 PM   #6
trevlyns
Human being with feelings
 
trevlyns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rhode Island, New England
Posts: 1,665
Default

Nope, that's one I don't have yet. Got the strat, tele and LP. Now you're making me spend more money!

Thanks (don't tell the missus)
__________________
Retired Home Music Producer
Sample Projects https://soundcloud.com/trevs_audio
trevlyns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2012, 07:31 PM   #7
plgrmsprgrs
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 2,021
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melton Glass View Post
Neil Young could have anything in the world,and he uses a Bigsby,and P90s(like your Allekat).You could probably sorta pull off that kind of vibrato with a plugin,but it sounds tricky and failure prone.

You don't need a Bigsby,but I'll be happy to tell your wife that you do!
Alleykat comes with a bridge humbucker and a neck mini-humbucker. I swapped out the bridge pup for a GFS HB sized P90. Nice combination with the mini-humbucker. Yeah, I know Neil has a Bigsby on his LP. Any thoughts on detuning issues - Grover tuners?

Kyle
__________________
"Same as it ever was . . . " - David Byrne
plgrmsprgrs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2012, 07:41 PM   #8
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plgrmsprgrs View Post
Any thoughts on detuning issues - Grover tuners?

Kyle
I think it really depends on the back bridge and upper fret nut. If you've got a moving back bridge and rollers on the top it shouldn't be a problem. On the other hand, if things do go out (mainly from finger bending strings), just wiggling the bar will usually bring it right back.

I love my bigsby...
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 01:49 AM   #9
matey
Human being with feelings
 
matey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Civitavecchia (Italy)
Posts: 574
Default

you cant go wrong with bigsby...
I recently bought myself a bigsby tremolo for my hagstrom viking and I'm happy with it.
no need to bend my SG's neck anymore...
__________________
"You know what a miracle is. Not what Bakunin said. But another world's intrusion into this one".
Thomas Pynchon, The Crying of Lot 49
matey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 02:12 AM   #10
pixeltarian
Human being with feelings
 
pixeltarian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Minneaplis
Posts: 3,317
Default

I didn't really read this thread, but yes.

Personally I'd love to put a Bigsby on a Telecaster.
pixeltarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 11:03 AM   #11
Melton Glass
Human being with feelings
 
Melton Glass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: MPLS,MN,USA
Posts: 1,985
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plgrmsprgrs View Post
Alleykat comes with a bridge humbucker and a neck mini-humbucker. I swapped out the bridge pup for a GFS HB sized P90. Nice combination with the mini-humbucker. Yeah, I know Neil has a Bigsby on his LP. Any thoughts on detuning issues - Grover tuners?

Kyle
Well,there are roller bridges:http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,...er_Bridge.htmlThis one looks like a direct replacement for your Tune-o-matic.If your nut slots are tight you might want to consider opening them up a little,or putting a little graphite in the slots.

I was thinking Wildkat.Oops!
__________________
I'm too busy to disagree with you right now.

An idea, an hour, a microphone-http://soundcloud.com/melton-glass
Melton Glass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 01:01 PM   #12
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

There is nothing that the addition of a Bigsby does not improve, so yes, you need one. I'd have one on my ukulele if I could find one that fits.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 02:10 PM   #13
dug dog
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,798
Default

My only beef with my Bigsby is the manner in which the strings are attached to it. Very fiddly and, at times, exasperating. I wish I could remember where I saw it, but I saw a knock off that improved on this factor because instead of trying to get the hole in the ball end of the string over a little pin, there was a hole in the tail piece that you simply slid the string through much like you would with a stop end tail piece. Much nicer, IMO.

But, yeah, you need one.
dug dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 02:30 PM   #14
Melton Glass
Human being with feelings
 
Melton Glass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: MPLS,MN,USA
Posts: 1,985
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil View Post
There is nothing that the addition of a Bigsby does not improve, so yes, you need one. I'd have one on my ukulele if I could find one that fits.
This just bears repeating.
__________________
I'm too busy to disagree with you right now.

An idea, an hour, a microphone-http://soundcloud.com/melton-glass
Melton Glass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 04:46 PM   #15
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melton Glass View Post
This just bears repeating.
I agree.

One little tip: The handle was a little low for my taste so I put a nickle under the spring and it raised it up just right. It's still there today.

Heh heh, back in the early 70s the guitar was stolen. To make a long story short I was on the road and got it back through the city police department a couple of weeks later. When asked to identify it I showed them the nickle under the spring, enough said..
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:16 PM   #16
nikar
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 327
Default

Do I need a Bigsby?

There is only ever one answer to that. Of course you do - everybody does.
nikar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 05:51 PM   #17
pw3
Human being with feelings
 
pw3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 354
Default

Oh hellz yes. Absolutely. Did I mention yes? I believe I did.

Sure they can be a pain to re-string, but they're worth it. No other way to make that noise.
pw3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 12:29 PM   #18
sweeteners
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 37
Default

I must have a Bigsby, or similar, on any guitar now that I've gotten used to having it. Great for song endings and sounding different in a jam with other guitars.
sweeteners is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 09:14 AM   #19
plgrmsprgrs
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 2,021
Default

I hate the way you guys make me read between the lines. But, I think your drift is that I need a Bigsby. You really should learn to just come out and say what you mean. Thanks!

Kyle
__________________
"Same as it ever was . . . " - David Byrne
plgrmsprgrs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 10:19 AM   #20
Bezmotivnik
Human being with feelings
 
Bezmotivnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: California
Posts: 1,436
Default

Why is this in "REAPER Q&A, Tips, Tricks and Howto"?

I've written a ton of technical copy about the various guitar ganged vibrato systems and their relative flaws over the years.

Bottom line: They're all a PITA, and the only one that really addresses the basic engineering problems and tuning hassles is the locking Floyd Rose -- and even it's not totally exempt.

Paul Bigsby was a motorcycle mechanic, not an engineer, and it shows (but at least he knew the difference between vibrato and tremolo, unlike Leo Fender).

They've been trying to dig the Bigsby (and other non-locking vibrato designs) out of its inherent string path hassles for over fifty years and they're still working on it.

If you don't have the string path locked (or frictionless, which is impossible) you'll ALWAYS have tuning/repeatability problems to some degree. Can you live with them?

I can't. It's not worth it to me. I have probably six or eight Bigsby (or Bigsby clone) equipped guitars here, and as many with other non-locking vibrato designs and I simply never use them or have the vibratos blocked.
__________________
You won't progress musically until you stop thinking like a musician and start thinking like a producer.
Bezmotivnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 10:56 AM   #21
plgrmsprgrs
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 2,021
Default

[QUOTE=Bezmotivnik;920603]Why is this in "REAPER Q&A, Tips, Tricks and Howto"?

Undoubtedly because I overlooked the part that specified "REAPER" Q&A as opposed to "GENERAL" Q&A. Would have been more appropriate for general discussion.

Thanks for the dissenting perspective. I'll weigh that into my decision.

Kyle
__________________
"Same as it ever was . . . " - David Byrne
plgrmsprgrs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 11:09 AM   #22
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Bottom line: They're all a PITA, and the only one that really addresses the basic engineering problems and tuning hassles is the locking Floyd Rose -- and even it's not totally exempt.

Aww... Hogwash It's 100% dependent on how it is used and how the guitar is setup. If you are a serious "dive bomber" then I agree but I have two strats with stock non-locking tremelos that I can abuse fairly well and stay in tune because they are setup properly and I'm don't play in a Van Halen tribute band.

Not to mention non-locking tremelo's always go sharp due to the binding at the nut (same reason we tune "up" when tuning a string). A good performer knows this and even if it did go a little out, a quick pull back on the bar will put it right back in tune (same way bending a string does by shifting the tension differential back across the nut to the fret side.

@Kyle:

A bigsby is its own animal and what I said above isn't always so easy for a BIGSBY because it is made completely different. If you ask me they are a little more tempermental. However, they weren't designed IMHO for huge swings of the bar but more doing that "vibrato thang" just like you hear most Bigsby players doing.

I'm a fan of tremelos in general because they give open up a whole new world of expression when used properly. Whether that is a Bigsby or not is totally up to you. Try one out at a music shop and get a feel for it, its different than other style tremelos. I have one on my Gretsch but like I said I use it lighter than the floating version on my strat.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.

Last edited by karbomusic; 03-08-2012 at 11:15 AM.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 11:23 AM   #23
Bezmotivnik
Human being with feelings
 
Bezmotivnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: California
Posts: 1,436
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plgrmsprgrs View Post
Thanks for the dissenting perspective. I'll weigh that into my decision.
This might help your decision:

There are two basic, major inherent vices with guitar vibrato systems. In cases where both are present, they greatly exacerbate each other:

1: Equalization of constantly changing string tension across witness points in the string path.

2: Achieving and maintaining pitch with strings gang-mounted to a spring, where the tension of each string affects the tension of the other strings.

The Bigsby has the worst case of both among the major vibrato designs. The Fender-style en bloc bridge/vibrato unit eliminates half of #1. The Floyd Rose eliminates all of #1.

They all have #2, but it's less of a problem when you're not fighting string friction grabbing and slipping at the witness points (the nut and saddle).
__________________
You won't progress musically until you stop thinking like a musician and start thinking like a producer.
Bezmotivnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 11:34 AM   #24
Bezmotivnik
Human being with feelings
 
Bezmotivnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: California
Posts: 1,436
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Aww... Hogwash It's 100% dependent on how it is used and how the guitar is setup.
Only in degree. With enough screwing around you can minimize the practical effects if you baby the instrument, but they're always there waiting to bite you on the butt -- especially with the Bigsby.

The flaws are inherent and inescapable.

Stop thinking of these as guitars and start thinking of them as engineering problems and all will become clear.
__________________
You won't progress musically until you stop thinking like a musician and start thinking like a producer.
Bezmotivnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 11:43 AM   #25
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezmotivnik View Post
Only in degree. With enough screwing around you can minimize the practical effects if you baby the instrument, but they're always there waiting to bite you on the butt -- especially with the Bigsby.

The flaws are inherent and inescapable.

Stop thinking of these as guitars and start thinking of them as engineering problems and all will become clear.
I know the engineering behind it, that's why mine stays in tune. But I agree on the Bigsby, not the best implementation of the idea. Your close to my age so you do realize that before the Floyd Rose days there were people using with similar intentions and keeping them very well in tune correct? Not everyone but it was done. The FL allowed utter and complete abuse to be had.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 12:30 PM   #26
Bezmotivnik
Human being with feelings
 
Bezmotivnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: California
Posts: 1,436
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I know the engineering behind it, that's why mine stays in tune.
No, you baby it, Ill bet!

Quote:
Your close to my age so you do realize that before the Floyd Rose days there were people using with similar intentions and keeping them very well in tune correct?
Ha! What I remember is everyone playing egregiously out of tune all the time, vibratos or not. Cheap electronic tuners were in the future.

Quote:
Not everyone but it was done. The FL allowed utter and complete abuse to be had.
The problem with the Bigsby is that if you screw around with the guitar enough and get it where it's in tune, tension is equalized and the strings don't slip in the nut and saddles if you don't crank it much, you can keep it tune for a few songs -- up to the point you accidentally bump the lever a couple of degrees more, get slippage over a saddle and you have to start the whole mess all over.

I can't tell you how much I hate that crap. It's just torture for me. I hate tuning and tuning problems.

Never mind that with a sprung vibrato, simply getting in tune if you're fairly out to start with takes around three passes because bringing the strings up to pitch slacks the ones previously tuned.

Feh! Who needs it?

Floyd Rose vibratos are no things of beauty, certainly, but when you finally do get them in tune, they pretty much stay there, whether you use the vibrato or not. Some of mine seem to stay in tune for months if the rest of the guitar is fairly stable. It amazed me the first time I realized that. I thought it was a miracle.
__________________
You won't progress musically until you stop thinking like a musician and start thinking like a producer.
Bezmotivnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 12:46 PM   #27
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezmotivnik View Post
The problem with the Bigsby is that if you screw around with the guitar enough and get it where it's in tune, tension is equalized and the strings don't slip in the nut and saddles if you don't crank it much, you can keep it tune for a few songs -- up to the point you accidentally bump the lever a couple of degrees more, get slippage over a saddle and you have to start the whole mess all over.
I think a movable back bridge is pretty essential for vibrato devices. However the only reason mine goes out of tune is when I bend strings which is often but as I mentioned above and karbo alludes to, it just takes a little jiggle of the bar to bring it back. My bigsby has become such an extension of my playing that it all just works together.

Quote:
Never mind that with a sprung vibrato, simply getting in tune if you're fairly out to start with takes around three passes because bringing the strings up to pitch slacks the ones previously tuned.
I don't have any problem tuneing, I just wiggle the bar a little after tuneing each string and it don't take long. Actually it helps by equalizing the thension before and after the top fret nut.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 01:00 PM   #28
plgrmsprgrs
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 2,021
Default

Well - I specifically mentioned a Bigsby because I thought it was the only kind (knock-offs incl.) that would fit my Epiphone Alleykat. Is there another option I'm not aware of?

I'm definitely not planning on wailing on it. Just looking to do the more gentle vibrato Karbo describes.

Also, one of the earlier post seemed to suggest that a rolling bridge might avoid some of the tuning issues. Any thoughts?

Kyle
__________________
"Same as it ever was . . . " - David Byrne
plgrmsprgrs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 01:15 PM   #29
Bezmotivnik
Human being with feelings
 
Bezmotivnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: California
Posts: 1,436
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plgrmsprgrs View Post

Also, one of the earlier post seemed to suggest that a rolling bridge might avoid some of the tuning issues. Any thoughts?
It's another of the many of the Mickey Mouse attempts to get over the basic problem of the saddles snagging/slipping.

The rap on these is that they "kill tone" and "suck sustain."

True? Who knows?

I have an OEM roller bridge on one of mine. I have no idea if it makes any difference, good or bad.

Roller bridges and roller nuts seem to me to be prone to getting grunged-up and not working, but my experience with them is limited.
__________________
You won't progress musically until you stop thinking like a musician and start thinking like a producer.
Bezmotivnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 01:31 PM   #30
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezmotivnik View Post
It's another of the many of the Mickey Mouse attempts to get over the basic problem of the saddles snagging/slipping.

The rap on these is that they "kill tone" and "suck sustain."

True? Who knows?

I have an OEM roller bridge on one of mine. I have no idea if it makes any difference, good or bad.

Roller bridges and roller nuts seem to me to be prone to getting grunged-up and not working, but my experience with them is limited.
Yes I think roller bridges would tend to do that. That's why I think the floating type bridge would be better especially if you have the little individual string tuning lugs on them.

Last edited by Tod; 03-08-2012 at 01:41 PM.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 01:43 PM   #31
Bezmotivnik
Human being with feelings
 
Bezmotivnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: California
Posts: 1,436
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I think a movable back bridge is pretty essential for vibrato devices.
I have one of these pricey things, which I bought new in a moment of temporary insanity because it was on very long sale:


[1962 Reissue]

Contrary to any reasonable expectation, the primitive "silver weenie" bridge has almost bang-on intonation (how?) and provides a repeatable rock. I think a lot of that is due to the relatively low string loading in this B3 application compared to the B7. Straight-pull string tension is all that's barely holding the whole mess together on the top of the guitar. Cut the strings and the whole bridge will fall off in the floor and the Bigsby will swing off backwards on its hinge.

I think all my others are B7-configuration, which puts hugely more loading on the bridge, and I suspect this may make the problem worse rather than better.
__________________
You won't progress musically until you stop thinking like a musician and start thinking like a producer.
Bezmotivnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 02:18 PM   #32
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezmotivnik View Post
Why is this in "REAPER Q&A, Tips, Tricks and Howto"?

I've written a ton of technical copy about the various guitar ganged vibrato systems and their relative flaws over the years.

Bottom line: They're all a PITA, and the only one that really addresses the basic engineering problems and tuning hassles is the locking Floyd Rose -- and even it's not totally exempt.

Paul Bigsby was a motorcycle mechanic, not an engineer, and it shows (but at least he knew the difference between vibrato and tremolo, unlike Leo Fender).

They've been trying to dig the Bigsby (and other non-locking vibrato designs) out of its inherent string path hassles for over fifty years and they're still working on it.

If you don't have the string path locked (or frictionless, which is impossible) you'll ALWAYS have tuning/repeatability problems to some degree. Can you live with them?

I can't. It's not worth it to me. I have probably six or eight Bigsby (or Bigsby clone) equipped guitars here, and as many with other non-locking vibrato designs and I simply never use them or have the vibratos blocked.
The ONLY vibrato systems I have ever had problems with are the floyd rose inspired ones. Even the Kahler one was way way better.
I mean, ten minutes to change a string???
Stock Fender I never have any problems with, same with Bigsby.

You just have to know how to set a guitar up properly to use one AND not use stupid-ass string gauges like 8's.
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 02:19 PM   #33
plgrmsprgrs
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 2,021
Default

Is this a floating bridge? If not, will it work well with the Bigsby?


Kyle
__________________
"Same as it ever was . . . " - David Byrne
plgrmsprgrs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 02:22 PM   #34
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezmotivnik View Post
Only in degree. With enough screwing around you can minimize the practical effects if you baby the instrument, but they're always there waiting to bite you on the butt -- especially with the Bigsby.

The flaws are inherent and inescapable.

Stop thinking of these as guitars and start thinking of them as engineering problems and all will become clear.
Stop thinking like an engineer and approach it as what it is. A musical instrument with all the inherent vagaries that implies.

Are you telling us you never managed to get a guitar with a non-locking trem to behave for you?
I have a 1980 Tokai Springy Sound with all 5 springs set up with a fully floating trem that will dive bomb with the best of them. And return to correct pitch.
Incidentally, I have never tried the hipshot tremsetter. but that is supposedly good for Strat-type trems. Did you ever try one?

Last edited by ivansc; 03-08-2012 at 02:22 PM. Reason: splenig mitskea
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 02:32 PM   #35
shemp
Human being with feelings
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,157
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plgrmsprgrs View Post
Well - I specifically mentioned a Bigsby because I thought it was the only kind (knock-offs incl.) that would fit my Epiphone Alleykat. Is there another option I'm not aware of?

I'm definitely not planning on wailing on it. Just looking to do the more gentle vibrato Karbo describes.

Also, one of the earlier post seemed to suggest that a rolling bridge might avoid some of the tuning issues. Any thoughts?

Kyle
I had a Wildkat with the Bigsby stock, non rolling bridge. It worked awesome. Never had a tuning issue. And they have a cheap plastic nut...The Bigsby doesn't move that far so it's tough to get it to bind.

As far as adding it to the Alleykat, I don't know. I say go for it, or pick up a Wildkat. They are cheap enough used.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Stop thinking like an engineer and approach it as what it is. A musical instrument with all the inherent vagaries that implies.

Are you telling us you never managed to get a guitar with a non-locking trem to behave for you?
I have a 1980 Tokai Springy Sound with all 5 springs set up with a fully floating trem that will dive bomb with the best of them. And return to correct pitch.
Incidentally, I have never tried the hipshot tremsetter. but that is supposedly good for Strat-type trems. Did you ever try one?
yeah I have a stock Squier strat (another plastic nut) that I gig with regularly. I beat the HELL out of the trem and it stays in tune. You just have to set it up properly.
shemp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 02:32 PM   #36
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plgrmsprgrs View Post
Is this a floating bridge? If not, will it work well with the Bigsby?


Kyle
I don't think so Kyle, the only way to know for sure is to loosen the strings and see if the bridge moves slightly.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 02:36 PM   #37
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Another thing about not having a floating bridge is that besides tuning issues the strings will tend to wear out a break right at that point.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 06:04 PM   #38
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezmotivnik View Post
No, you baby it, Ill bet!
I agree with all but the above... I guess I'm lucky, for some reason, those two strats just seem to do fine. I am a stickler about setting them up right but after that they get banged around pretty good and stay in tune.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 06:10 PM   #39
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Floyd Rose vibratos are no things of beauty, certainly, but when you finally do get them in tune, they pretty much stay there, whether you use the vibrato or not. Some of mine seem to stay in tune for months if the rest of the guitar is fairly stable. It amazed me the first time I realized that. I thought it was a miracle.
I had one of the very first Kramers in the early 80s that came with the stock Floyd Rose and loved it (notwithstanding its maintenance). I've never had much problem with guitars staying in tune in general; I have no idea why. I suppose I got decent at it from not being able to afford someone else. If I play a 4 hour show now, I likely won't touch a tuner again after the show starts.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 06:29 PM   #40
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plgrmsprgrs View Post
Is this a floating bridge? If not, will it work well with the Bigsby?


Kyle
Looking back at your question, yes, you probably are simply asking do you need a Tremelo where Bigsby is a particular design/brand name of tremelo.

Generally a floating bridge (non-bigsby) has the equivalent of two knife blades being pulled against two posts and it floats at the level position due to equal tension between the strings and springs inside of the guitar body. Here is an example of one on a strat where if you look closely you'll see the knife portions against the posts and the small gap between the bottom of the bridge and the body. Its "floating":



Here is the same thing in Floyd Rose form. Notice the fine tuners which are needed since a Floyd Rose also has a locking nut that locks the strings at the nut to prevent binding and slippage (thats what makes 'em go out of tune for most any tremelo.. You press the bar, tension falls a string or strings slide through the nut toward the headstock; when the tension returns a bind or snag will prevent the string from coming fully back into tune as it gets stuck behind the nut. I'll be a little sharp now). Anyway the Floyd Rose:



Still the bridge above also "floats" using this pivot point. What is extrememly important about the above type setups is they should be 100% perpendicular with the posts vs leaning forward or backwards and on the exact same plane as the body. And here is a Bigsby type design:



Completely different design. Nothing is really floating and only a small spring under the tremelo bar provides the back tension in response to the strings. Also notice the actual bridge saddles are their own piece and there is lots of string between those and where the strings attach. This means there is a lot more room and tendency for the string to snag/slip across the saddles when using the bar not just the nut. In the floating style there is little or none of this (at the bridge) so its less finicky. The same issue is there for both types up where the nut is. Some like the floyd rose solve this by providing a locking nut to lock down the strings. Then again, Bigsby always wins where "Cool factor" is concerned cuz they are just plain cool.

Here one last design which is the vintage pre American Standard strat design. I don't consider it a floating tremelo either. All its pivot points are with the six screws and there is a shallow bevel (not visible here) on the bottom front side of the bridge. These usually work best with the screws almost or all all the way in, the tremelo is usually very near or touching the body and the major drawback is there is little or zero pull back on the bar so a true vibrato is difficult (only down, little or no up) and makes a big difference:



So thinking tremelo in general its really up to you if you like to be able to add some vibrato to entire chords etc. I love the ability because it can be very expressive and emotional when used at just the right times. The type that works best for you is many times dictated by style of music and/or the type of guitar you play. If it were me, I'd be much more likely to buy a guitar with the tremelo than to have one added on later. YMMV and hope this helps.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.

Last edited by karbomusic; 03-08-2012 at 06:58 PM.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.