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Old 06-07-2014, 05:05 AM   #1
fantasyvn
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Default Dismissing songwriters who 'can only write melody and lyrics'

I live in Vietnam and read an interview, where a local arranger/producer dismissed those songwriters who "can only write melody and lyrics" without being able to arrange and produce the songs.

He claims that in his view, 'melody and lyrics only make up about 20% of a song'. If you 'can only write that', you are definitely not a composer. Even the label 'songwriter' may not be appropriate.

He elaborates that "who wants to buy or listen to a song without a good arrangement and production?"

Is this view common in the American or European music industry? Do you think there is truth in this kind of thought?

Or do you think this is just an example where an arranger/producer wants to shut the industry door to songwriters?

Thank you
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Old 06-07-2014, 05:16 AM   #2
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That is a really interesting question. My reaction is that (at least in "professional" practice) song writing is a separate activity from arranging/producing and even performance. And often it may be done by a different individual. However I would think most people would consider the song writing a perfectly complete contribution in it's own way...

Who writes and arranges their own material? Prince, McCartney, Mike Oldfield... but surely these are exceptional at least outside of EDM and someother genres (?) I think the fact that we have DAWs like REAPER mean that as songwritwers the temptation is to get involved with arranging and production- simply cos we can. And maybe some of us have a clear idea of the sound when we start (although I suspect this is rare indeed).

My own experience is that arrangements come from long (but engrossing and enlightening for me ) group collaborations that involve experiment and sometimes serendipity. Putting percentages on this is frankly meaningless.
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Old 06-07-2014, 07:40 AM   #3
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A song has almost NOTHING to do with arrangement. That is, I agree with Martifingers, but with more emphasis than he put on the point.

The basic song (melody, lyrics, harmony) can be arranged in ANY NUMBER of ways, demonstrating clearly that arrangement is totally separate from song. The same artist may play and arrange the same song over a whole career, doing it differently every time, but the differences do not change the song. They change the rendition, but not the song itself.

Yes, there are aspects of a song's basic elements and flow that CAN suggest ways of arranging. But the arrangement can package and treat the song in ways that the songwriter never imagined, never intended, and has no say in.

Any basic song written down or recorded could be taken by any one of us, in any style, at any speed, with any instruments, and we could do something cool with it. A strong song is one that ALLOWS for such variable treatment, while weak songs are those that consist of not much other than an arrangement.

Classic songs can be seen in this kind of expressive variety - created by arrangers. There are rock versions of Eleanor Rigby, and folk versions, and choral versions, and reggae versions, and orchestral versions, and elevator versions, and punk and grunge versions. None of those arrangements can TOUCH the song itself.

To me it is like saying that painters are not good enough painters unless they can frame their own paintings and run their own galleries. Sorry. Wrong.
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Old 06-07-2014, 07:58 AM   #4
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Thank you for your insightful replies.
I want to give a bit of context. In Vietnam, perhaps like the US many decades ago, it is still possible to pitch your songs with a low-quality demo, or even a music sheet. So a songwriter, unless he wants to, does not really need to collaborate with a better arranger in the creation and initial production process.

I read about Bruno Mars’s songwriting. He collaborates with two other musicians, one of whom is really excellent at arrangement and production. These three men share the songwriting credits. Perhaps only by collaborating like this can they pitch their songs to the labels or artists.

In Vietnam, an arranger is only used after the song has been accepted by a singer or a producer. In many cases, the arrangers only work with a music sheet. And yet after a song becomes a hit, the fame and royalties go to the songwriters only.

So in this context, I can understand the frustration of many arrangers who, once they become more prominent, would become producers as well. They may think, “It was me who made the songs become a reality. So why can’t I get the songwriting credits….”
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Old 06-07-2014, 08:07 AM   #5
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I am totally in agreement with msore (what! People agreeing on a Reaper forum!)
With a couple of exceptions maybe... I would say eg that "Kind of Blue" is stromg music that, although it can be re-arranged etc, seems to be very integrated into its arrangement if you know what I mean. But maybe that is not really relevant as it's not really about "songs".

Over here in the UK The Guardian newspaper recently did a poll of the best and worst Beatles covers... following them up is an extreme vindication of what msore is saying.
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Old 06-07-2014, 08:28 AM   #6
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who wants a bricklayer if he cannot build a complete house including electricity, painting, plumming etc?
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Old 06-07-2014, 11:35 AM   #7
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I'm with msore. No amount of arrangement is going to make a song if the melody and lyrics aren't there to begin with. That's the foundation. Everything else is decoration.
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Old 06-07-2014, 01:44 PM   #8
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you can a lot with arrangement. You can do a hitsong with a poor song and you can destroy a good song the same way, but if the song will be remembered 10 years later, it's for sure because of the song, not the arrangement.
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Old 06-07-2014, 08:38 PM   #9
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wow. I thought I was going to get in trouble.

Now that I said what I said, however, I will praise arrangers. They do things that songwriters cannot do. The best arrangers make great things happen, and should get more credit.

Who make Thriller work? Not that strange Jackson kid. The arranger! QJ.

Another concession to the importance of arrangements is that young bands really oughta spend more time and energy studying arranging, and coming up with the kinds of arrangements that are best for the band. But that is distinct from songwriting, and can be done by other people, or by the group.

Here on this forum, and on others like it, people often say they fuss and fuss and cannot finish a song. Usually, doesn't that refer to arrangement, not song?
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Old 06-07-2014, 09:04 PM   #10
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Yes another vote of agreement with msore. ha ha the date here is 8th of june 2014.

If you write the lyrics and the melody that is %100 of the song and the person who does this is the songwriter.

The song has an arrangement and arrangement is huge but I think the producer mentioned in the op is talking bollocks

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Old 06-07-2014, 09:24 PM   #11
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Good production and arrangement can make a bad song paletable, and a good song can still be good without great production and flashy arrangments.

I like girls with big boobs and girls with small boobs, it isn't really it has to be one or the other kind of deal.
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:33 AM   #12
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At the end of the gig the audience don't go home humming the production.
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:41 AM   #13
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Sounds like a production/arrangement/orchestration with no actual writing skills.
You CAN have a melody with no arrangement, etc., but an arrangement without a melody isn`t a song.
Songwriters are the ones that get the biggest slice of sales income after the distributing company (and of course the lawyers agents & managers) which should make the contribution of the arrangers etc pretty obvious.
SURE they can help a song, but no way can an arranger or producer survive unless he either IS a songwriter too, or has good writers available with whom to collaborate.
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Old 06-08-2014, 02:26 AM   #14
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I like girls with big boobs and girls with small boobs, it isn't really it has to be one or the other kind of deal.
Sir, you speak wisdom, I choose both.
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Old 06-08-2014, 02:42 AM   #15
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Sounds like a production/arrangement/orchestration with no actual writing skills.
You CAN have a melody with no arrangement, etc., but an arrangement without a melody isn`t a song.
Interesting philosophical question lurking behind this (or maybe not!) which is that any rendition of the song is technically an arrangement (eg John strumming Strawberry Fields to George Martin waa an arrangemnt of sorts) so what is a song?

More practically can anyone answer the OPs question about what works in other places re demos. I have no experience in this but woukd assume a good AandR person would see the potential in any demo no matter how rough.... or not?
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Old 06-08-2014, 05:04 PM   #16
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Interesting philosophical question lurking behind this (or maybe not!) which is that any rendition of the song is technically an arrangement (eg John strumming Strawberry Fields to George Martin waa an arrangemnt of sorts) so what is a song?

More practically can anyone answer the OPs question about what works in other places re demos. I have no experience in this but woukd assume a good AandR person would see the potential in any demo no matter how rough.... or not?
How about this - a song is a piece of composed music that has its own personality, its own message,has a start, middle and ending, hangs together, and cannot be confused with any other song.

We have all heard bands, demos, concerts and albums that have been pretty much lacking in songs. It seems to be more and more the case. But even a band with no real songs has to learn at some point how to make a jam SOUND sort of like a song.

If you have big production/arrangement, you might get by with not many people noticing that there are no songs.

But if you have a good song, you can get by with almost no production, or with any kind of arrangement. I have been to many open mic events or festivals, and could spot a young person with great musical ideas and songwriting ability, with basically no arranging/production.

Some agents or A&R folks look for sound/style. Some of them look for songwriting. (While others are looking for vocal quality, or chops, or charisma.)

Perhaps what counts, however, is PUTTING elements together. Maybe that is what the original producer person was trying to say.

@Andy and Garrick: How about one BIG and one small?
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Old 06-08-2014, 05:26 PM   #17
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Here on this forum, and on others like it, people often say they fuss and fuss and cannot finish a song. Usually, doesn't that refer to arrangement, not song?
Yes, I think that is probably the case for many people - the unfinished part being, no song! It definitely is for myself. I don't know how to write songs - spent too much time playing with sound and this and that to learn the root of what counts. I have riffs, hooks, arrangements, and sounds out the yin-yang, but no songs worth mentioning.
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Old 06-08-2014, 06:10 PM   #18
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I think one of the big problems with music today is the feeling that you have to do everything to get credibility.

Do we expect movies to be directed, and written, by the lead actor?

How it is made is mostly irreverent to the finished product in my opinion.

In the days before recorded music it was not uncommon for the lyrics to be written by one person, the basic melody by another, and the arrangement on the sheet music by still another (often the arrangers main job at that time was to take the music and make is as easy to play as possible for the sheet music buying public without losing the essence of the song).

Also thinking you have to do it yourself is very limiting. What if every screenwriter always had to be the lead actor in everything they write.

Many great songwriters can not sing well, and many singers can not write well.

Imagine a top 40 countdown radio show where all the songs were played by the house band, and sung by the house singer. Before the popularity of Rock and Roll where you want to hear Elvis sing the Elvis song this was the norm. "Top of the Pops" I think was the name of the show.

Thinking that one person would have to do it all would be perverse in the days before recorded music, and I think this kind of thinking hurts music in general today.
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Old 06-08-2014, 06:32 PM   #19
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Slight excursion off-topic: From those who feel confident in songwriting to those of us who don't, how do we get to where we want to be? I mean, I can write a song, but not one that I want to hear. Starting from playing/improving/mouthing nonsense, I can come up with something at least halfway listenable, and turn it into something that makes a bit of sense. Writing a melody from scratch without backing chords? Forget it. Writing a song around lyrics? Nope. Maybe I haven't spent enough time at either one, but it definitely does not come naturally to me.

Back to the program...
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Old 06-08-2014, 08:00 PM   #20
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Slight excursion off-topic: From those who feel confident in songwriting to those of us who don't, how do we get to where we want to be? I mean, I can write a song, but not one that I want to hear. Starting from playing/improving/mouthing nonsense, I can come up with something at least halfway listenable, and turn it into something that makes a bit of sense. Writing a melody from scratch without backing chords? Forget it. Writing a song around lyrics? Nope. Maybe I haven't spent enough time at either one, but it definitely does not come naturally to me.
I've always been a bit natural about songwriting, half of the songs I do pop in my head with the smallest work, and the other half I just try different notes together that I think will fit nicely until it sounds cool. Either way, for a non-natural, I'd recommend studying music theory to have a better grip on how to integrate rhythm and melody. Also, meditate about music you consider referential to yours, and why you like it. IMO that should give you a nice kickstart.


On topic, I guess arrangement IS required for integrity to a song, at least in a commercial sense and I can't see how someone can even write a song without having at least an idea on how it should actually sound. Production, however, not so much. It's more like engineering and a bit less like art.
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Old 06-08-2014, 08:18 PM   #21
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@Andy and Garrick: How about one BIG and one small?
Two chicks?? .... Yeah I could fill that order.
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Old 06-08-2014, 08:29 PM   #22
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... Or do you think this is just an example where an arranger/producer wants to shut the industry door to songwriters?
I think his motivation is opening his door to people offering the product which he needs, and I don't assume he has any malevolent intent in doing that. No single producer has the power to shut an entire industry door.

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Old 06-08-2014, 09:11 PM   #23
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On topic, I guess arrangement IS required for integrity to a song, at least in a commercial sense and I can't see how someone can even write a song without having at least an idea on how it should actually sound.
Backtracking on what I said earlier...I think it is important. Interesting sounds, good performance, and arrangement are as much of a finished song as the lyrics, imo. Sometimes the lyrics are nonsense, open to interpretation, or nothing special at all on their own. For me, it is the thing as a whole. Most people know whether or not they like a song well before the meaning of the song is had, if it has a meaning at all, and there isn't a damn thing wrong with that. See the links below for an example. It's how music works. Music is abstract. It operates on another level, outside of, and sometimes including, intelligence. Any way, imo, the music is the most important part of a song - not the specific sounds or lyrics...but these things help in bringing about the music for many people.

When I say that I don't know how to write songs, I'm saying that in the sense of traditional lyric and melody craft. Maybe that isn't my thing, but I do want to get better in all aspects of making music. Any way, recent threads here got me stirred a bit and doubting. I think that the only thing I'm really lacking is putting myself fully into it what I'm doing and putting in whatever time and work is necessary. Good songs come through practice, in whatever way that works. Btw, I have a handle on basic music theory, but I never got into the composition aspect of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNnAvTTaJjM
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/t/talking..._20135067.html
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:06 AM   #24
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a good AandR person
Oxymoron....
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:09 AM   #25
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How about one BIG and one small?
To be read out loud in a broad North Yorkshire accent:

There was a young lass from Devises,
Who'd titties of differing sizes.
'T left one were small and no use at all,
But 't right one were huge and won prizes.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:21 AM   #26
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Two chicks?? .... Yeah I could fill that order.
sweet!!

party at andy's everyone
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Old 06-09-2014, 06:08 AM   #27
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I have found it to be generally true that there is material and there are classes and resources for young musicians to learn songwriting,

but ...

almost none for learning arranging.

Why is that?
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Old 06-09-2014, 06:37 AM   #28
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Default A song is what is done before arranging starts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eichro View Post
I guess arrangement IS required for integrity to a song, at least in a commercial sense and I can't see how someone can even write a song without having at least an idea on how it should actually sound.
Quote:
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Interesting sounds, good performance, and arrangement are as much of a finished song as the lyrics, imo.
Consider the difference between writing a stripped down stage play versus writing what is going to be a movie. The latter involves thinking about sets, costumes, special effects, camera angles, cuts, sounds, etc. But all that can be ignored if you have no set, no camera. Then you have to think only about the content, the strength of dialog, the drama.

A song can be and usually IS "finished" long before any arrangement at all is assigned to it. What is "there" in a song that has been just composed is what you find in a fake book - no solos, no instruments, no riffs, no bassline, no spelling out of structure (verse, chorus, bridge, etc).

I have seen this kind of thing happen in a studio, or in rehearsal for concert. Someone decides they need a new song. The songwriter(s) sits down in another room with their instrument and paper and pencil. They engage in a conversation between mind and instrument to arrive at a penciled out definition of a verse (melody and chords), and an alternative section (maybe a chorus, or maybe a bridge part). Maybe a theme or a core lyric is written down.

Then that material is taken back to the band. The band (along with someone who might be an arranger/producer) starts to work out the parts, BASED ON the skeletal song, which is already "done". So, a song is what is done before arranging starts. And the final "sound" of the produced piece can be very different from what the songwriter wrote.

On the other hand, there are lots of times when something that was composed as part of the arrangement BECOMES an essential part of the song, because it is very hook-like, salient, memorable, and cool. Maybe an intro, or a turnaround.

Here is another conception: When the arrangement gets overly strung out, or fully developed, or reaches a climax - WHAT will it resolve to? What simple statement will follow and clarify a big, loud, complicated arrangement, or follow a solo? You might call it "theme". But maybe that is what the core of a song is.
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Old 06-09-2014, 07:03 AM   #29
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It's often the case that the songwriter is responsible for the emotion of a song, by creating the main melody and lyrics, which everything else is just musical support for.

We often confuse record production with songwriting.

E.G. I agree with MSore.
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Old 06-09-2014, 11:04 AM   #30
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...there are classes and resources for young musicians to learn songwriting, but almost none for learning arranging.
They teach arranging and orchestration in college and university.

Some pieces (maybe many) by J.S.Bach were just a few notes that were "arranged" into full pieces. Theme and variation are tricks that go way back. Not sure what to do now? Play it backwards. Half speed. Upside down. Change the rhythm. Harmonize. Counterpoint. Shift the pitch. Modulate to minor. Use a different instrument. Add space.

It's no different today, except that these things are simply easier to do now.
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Old 06-09-2014, 11:25 AM   #31
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From those who feel confident in songwriting to those of us who don't, how do we get to where we want to be?
Where is it that you want to be?

Quote:
I mean, I can write a song, but not one that I want to hear.
What is it that you want to hear?


I asked them that way for a reason because many approach the above by making mental comparisons to songs they like with some notion of what good is before what "it" is they want to create even exists. I'm a big proponent that good music is the successful transfer of emotion via sound. That being said, the moment many start thinking about what they want it to sound like they begin shutting off the magic they have within (at the time of the actual writing).

In other words my challenge to most people is to sit down and write the 10 songs they absolutely know they can write but wouldn't do it because you thought they were cheesy or predictable or too simple. Write and say the things you are scared to say, write the songs you can write and ignore judging them until AFTER they are written.

Many of the best records you have ever heard, the songs came from that simple idea because the writer had not set up mental barriers of what it should be and instead allowed whatever was inside to simply be. All the arrangement, secret sauce, FX, perfect guitar tones and fanfare are after the great song is born.
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Old 06-09-2014, 11:35 AM   #32
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What Karbo said.

Dance music aside, songs that are supposed to convey emotion need emotion to begin with or it's just empty words. The analogy i use is acting. In order to be a great dramatic actor you kinda often have to "feel" something real, and put that into your acting. That's where the real art comes from, letting your guard down and exposing your real emotions, not just writing clever lyrics or reading lines.

How can you write (convincingly) about heartbreak, loss, longing, etc, etc, if you haven't experienced any of that? If you're writing what you think people want to hear instead of writing what you really care or feel deeply about, maybe not the best path.

Cue net rock ballad #2,000,000 with great guitar tones and no believable lyrical message or delivery.
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Old 06-09-2014, 12:02 PM   #33
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In my years of working together with musicians I would say few can write a innovative, good melody and this is a gift. Many can write a really good arrangement - this is moreover experience and a lot of learning.
I just met no-one in my life to have it all together (although many song are very popular, they lack a good melody), I have neither for example
The boobs commentary hits the nail.
But there is also commercial music that follows only some noquality standards, so this debate is easily turned around.
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Old 06-09-2014, 12:09 PM   #34
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Interesting topic! Music is in the ear of the beholder. My wife and I have this debate a lot. She says that the lyrics make or break a song and I try to explain to her that I hear the melody in relationship to the rest of the instruments first. If the music and melody sound great to my ear, I may never even hear what the lyrics say.

I struggle with arrangement a lot of times. For me, the arrangement comes as a part of repetition of the song(rehearsal). There's a natural ad-hoc change in songs that occurs when playing it over and over until you're sick of it. I don’t have the discipline it requires to rehearse and arrange the song before I record. I don’t know about all of the one-person recording artists out there; but typically I can barely play the song I recorded a week ago. I don’t think I spend enough time to really arrange the song and have it flow the best that it can. It’s just parts kind of thrown against each other.

I have had the chance to learn my own songs with a full band and it's interesting what they become after having played them for a while. They usually get much better.
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Old 06-09-2014, 12:26 PM   #35
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But there is also commercial music that follows only some noquality standards, so this debate is easily turned around.
I think there are typically two main goals:

1. Write a song that makes one famous or rich because they want to be famous or rich and they are drawn to being a star or recognition etc. "Let's look at what works for others and jump on that bandwagon" The song was only a vehicle to #1. Or even if they simply want to make a living, they have no choice but to write to and sell to what they think someone will buy.

2. Write a good song regardless because you have something to say.

For those who live by the #1, every decision they make is colored by #1. For those who live by #2, there is no debate to turn around. The first step is for each individual to be 100% honest with themselves about why/what they write. Some live #1 while trying to tell themselves they are #2s. #1 is cool but the person needs to really understand where they fall and understand good song now becomes sellable song.
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Old 06-09-2014, 12:43 PM   #36
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Song..ie..lyric and melody -- 85%

Arrangement -- the rest

A great song could be arranged a thousand different ways..whatever you want..whatever style you like...

A great arranger with no song?Just someone who knows lots of useless stuff
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Old 06-09-2014, 12:44 PM   #37
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Interesting topic! Music is in the ear of the beholder. My wife and I have this debate a lot. She says that the lyrics make or break a song and I try to explain to her that I hear the melody in relationship to the rest of the instruments first. If the music and melody sound great to my ear, I may never even hear what the lyrics say.
I could say the exact same thing. There are songs that I've loved and listened to many, many times over the years, but couldn't tell you what they're about. In fact, if there's a good chord progression and a set of rhythm parts performed well, I may not ever get past that to even pay much attention to the melody, let alone the lyrics. I know I'm an oddball, but I can remain fascinated by the foundation of the song and never make it to what most people focus on. I guess that's why I play bass.
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Old 06-09-2014, 01:18 PM   #38
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I could say the exact same thing. There are songs that I've loved and listened to many, many times over the years, but couldn't tell you what they're about. In fact, if there's a good chord progression and a set of rhythm parts performed well, I may not ever get past that to even pay much attention to the melody, let alone the lyrics. I know I'm an oddball, but I can remain fascinated by the foundation of the song and never make it to what most people focus on. I guess that's why I play bass.
I suppose that makes at least two oddballs. I'm a singer and I'm certainly more interested in the notes I hit than the lyrics. I do think about the lyrical content when I'm writing those, but that's almost a separate process altogether.
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Old 06-09-2014, 02:04 PM   #39
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Song..ie..lyric and melody -- 85%

Arrangement -- the rest

A great song could be arranged a thousand different ways..whatever you want..whatever style you like...

A great arranger with no song?Just someone who knows lots of useless stuff
I want to agree (already have once in this thread!), but I can't. I mean, music is sound. Are lyrics important? Depends on the song. Is melody important? Depends on the song. Is timbre of the instruments important? Depends on the song. Is arrangement important? Depends on the song. I think that music can't be nailed down to a formula; this element is most important. Sure, we can say that song x uses y progression, melodic contour, etc., but that is after the fact analysis. If you use those exact same elements for a new song, chances are that it won't work without something introducing something different.

Music can say something without a comprehendible lyric, obviously. But I don't know how many times that I've heard a [lyrical] song from the distance, from another room, through a wall and liked it before I knew anything of what it is about. That is rhythm, melody, instrumentation, and performance. If the lyrics said something, all the better. Then there are songs that are made by the lyrics and the rest is secondary. I think there are no absolutes in music, as in art. Good is good, and sometimes bad is good.
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Old 06-09-2014, 02:09 PM   #40
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I could say the exact same thing. There are songs that I've loved and listened to many, many times over the years, but couldn't tell you what they're about. In fact, if there's a good chord progression and a set of rhythm parts performed well, I may not ever get past that to even pay much attention to the melody, let alone the lyrics. I know I'm an oddball, but I can remain fascinated by the foundation of the song and never make it to what most people focus on. I guess that's why I play bass.
At least my first 15 years of listening to music was exactly that. I do like interesting lyrics these days, but still, music comes first for me.

We need a music discussion section to the forum. Everything is about Reaper and tech. Edit: I guess that is what the music/collab section is for. I always looked at it as the section to post music, not talk about it.
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