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12-03-2010, 05:16 AM
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#41
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: A-town, Australia
Posts: 633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daverich
in the same way as excavating for a motorway isn't the same as ploughing.
Kind regards
Dave Rich
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But if your plough has adjustable depth, size, speed, blade angle, attack, release, pre-comp, rms size etc, doesn't this difference pretty much disappear?
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12-03-2010, 09:24 AM
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#42
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: They put me in a home.
Posts: 3,432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moribund
The same way you use the JS one. Follow the instructions from the previous post, but insert FreeG instead of JS, and check "gain" in the parameter modulation dialog.
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Would that plugin be more useful than the JS one? It doesn't have controls like attack, etc.
It seems as though perhaps the JS one is better suited for this sort of task.
Am I close? I'd really like to start using this technique I'm excited
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12-03-2010, 11:52 AM
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#43
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 103
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the attack and so forth are part of the paramter modulation itself, doesnt matter if you use free g or not
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12-03-2010, 11:55 AM
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#44
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: They put me in a home.
Posts: 3,432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walsh350
the attack and so forth are part of the paramter modulation itself, doesnt matter if you use free g or not
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I don't understand. I thought they were on the JS plugin GUI. Perhaps, I'm mistaken? (likely! lol)
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12-03-2010, 01:03 PM
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#45
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowellben
I don't understand. I thought they were on the JS plugin GUI. Perhaps, I'm mistaken? (likely! lol)
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You are mistaken 8-)
You take a gain plug - ANY gain plug- then you manipulate the plugin via parameter modulation which is SEPARATE from the plugin itself. The extra controls like attack and so forth are found in the parameter modulation window.
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12-03-2010, 01:06 PM
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#46
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: They put me in a home.
Posts: 3,432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicbuss
You are mistaken 8-)
You take a gain plug - ANY gain plug- then you manipulate the plugin via parameter modulation which is SEPARATE from the plugin itself. The extra controls like attack and so forth are found in the parameter modulation window.
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Thank you! man, I love REAPER
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03-01-2012, 09:04 AM
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#47
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 79
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I know this is an old dead thread but I'd like to find out if arbogast's method does effectively duplicate vocal rider's product.
I watched the swf-video but I'm not 100% understanding what all is happening. It looks like at times it is increasing the already loud volume, which is the opposite of what I want to do.
Does anyone know if this method is a direct vocal rider clone for Reaper?
Also, are there any other ways of completely duplicating vocal rider's performance within Reaper?
I tried out Steady but, after futzing with the controls, I still could not tell that it was doing anything. This, though, entirely possibly is due to inexperience on my part and the lack of a meter showing what is being done to the level.
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03-01-2012, 09:19 AM
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#48
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 50
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At the beginning of the video "positive" is selected so the parameter modulation increases with the waveform. "Negative" is then engaged after the first two clips and then it begins decreasing the parameter modulation with increases in volume of the waveform.
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"What we play is life" - Louis Armstrong
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03-01-2012, 09:33 AM
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#49
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 79
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I've watched that video four times and never saw that. This certainly makes more sense.
Do you know if this completely duplicates vocal rider's result? It appears, to me (the uninitiated), that it very well could.
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03-01-2012, 10:09 AM
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#50
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 50
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I've never used the waves vocal rider but check his out...
http://www.meldaproduction.com/mautovolume/
Sounds like it is very much like vocal rider and is less expensive (it's only $27 "until the end of the week" according to the developer). You can look up threads on KVR about it. I picked it up because it is pretty inexpensive for what it does and got good reviews. I'm too busy to really run it through it's paces right know but I thought I'd take a chance.
I think the parameter modulation looks great but something like MAutoVolume appears to have more control. Using this before a compressor on some gentle settings seems like a winner for a natural vocal treatment. YMMV.
__________________
"What we play is life" - Louis Armstrong
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05-22-2012, 07:21 PM
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#51
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 100
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I've been using the volume vocal rider method in Reaper for a while...that is using parameter modulation. Also works great on unruly bass lines. It does take a bit of experimentation with the settings but once you figure it out you can make it sound very transparent and get the bass and vox to sit in the mix just right. Once you have those tracks "evened out" then ride your fader when overall adjustments are needed.
You can still use compression for transient shaping and adding character to the sound, but you wont have to compress the life out of the track to put in place.
If you can wrap your head around it you'll save some $$.
I think there was some confusion on this post regarding "ducking", which is different from "vocal riding". Once I have done my vocal riding, I then create a send from the vocal buss to the guitar buss, triggering the compressor (side-chain compression) on the guitar buss - slightly lowering the volume with the vocals come in...usually only 1 - 3 db) - that is ducking
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05-24-2012, 02:42 PM
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#52
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 100
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Bass/Vox Rider demonstration
For anyone who's interested, I've attached a Reaper project file. It contains a bass and vocal track with volume modulation on each.
Simply open the project and toggle the FX button on/off to compare. Some eq is added, but overall levels match so you can accurately hear the difference.
I've found these parameter settings to be a good starting point. You could also adjust the parameter modulation curve to adapt attack/release settings to the feel of the song.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23141467/Vol...Modulation.zip
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05-24-2012, 08:43 PM
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#53
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,805
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Thank you so much Cisco Kid. I was actually gonna ask for some info on the differences between your Bass and Vocal riding settings, and you did me one better. Cheers
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08-08-2012, 07:52 AM
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#54
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 79
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Thank you SOOO much, Cisco.
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08-08-2012, 05:09 PM
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#55
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lithgow N.S.W. Australia
Posts: 46
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i already got vocal rider before i saw this thread
does any of you have vocal rider and do you have to use a usb flash drive to operate it on your computer if its not on the net or can it be placed on the non net computer without using the usb dongle
ive already got an ilok taking up a port
thanks
D'arcy
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08-09-2012, 04:50 AM
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#56
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 1,388
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I'm guessing you are using V9 without the ilok (hate it, love ilok). Go to the Waves license manager and you can move the file from your usb drive to the actual computer you are using it on and then you don't need the usb drive for the licenses. You can not just copy the file by yourself though because that will not work...I've tried. If you are wanting to use your Waves files like and Ilok I would suggest a USB splitter of some sort.
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08-09-2012, 11:08 PM
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#57
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lithgow N.S.W. Australia
Posts: 46
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thanks for the reply camerondye
yes i am using v9 but am not sure how to go about moving the license from the usb to the non net computer
if you download an earlier version of the waves licence manager will it let you transfer it to the ilok
thanks
D'arcy
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08-10-2012, 05:42 AM
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#58
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 1,388
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AFAIK you can't use ILOK with V9. If you are still having issues transferring your licenses call Waves, their support is actually good and they can walk you through the process.
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08-27-2012, 09:36 AM
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#59
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Fayetteville, TN
Posts: 164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arbogast
1. insert js: utility:volume_pan on the track you wish to automatically automate (sic)
2. click the tracks ENV button: set automation to WRITE
a. check the VOLUME DB box
b. click MOD (yes, the txt)
c. check AUDIO CONTROL SIGNAL
d. select the track channels you wish to use
e. check negative/positive to lower/raise respectively
f. volume sliders are like thresholds
g. drag curve (the red dot) to change ratio.
h. press PLAY & watch automation being written (if it doesnt, lower the volume slider)
g. profit
Theres an swf-video with the above steps here
BTW: using more than 2 track channels you can have other tracks controlling the parameter modulation as well.
Coming from me, this is a rather lengthy post. Explanation? IM AT WORK
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Thank you for this, I get that now, but what I fail to get is how to automate the mixer volume fader, by that I mean the fader you normally use when you have a motorized touch sensitive controller, how does one do that? Sorry but although I've come along way using reaper there's still much to learn..
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08-27-2012, 11:28 AM
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#60
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 462
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Well, if you've followed all those directions you don't need to automate the fader, because the volume is already being automated. You can't see the fader moving, but it's sort of like having a volume envelope being created on the fly in real time. To get an idea of how it's working, open up the FX box on the track you're automating, and click on the JS utility/volume to look at the effect. You should see the volume on it decreasing on peaks.
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08-27-2012, 11:56 AM
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#61
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Fayetteville, TN
Posts: 164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moribund
Well, if you've followed all those directions you don't need to automate the fader, because the volume is already being automated. You can't see the fader moving, but it's sort of like having a volume envelope being created on the fly in real time. To get an idea of how it's working, open up the FX box on the track you're automating, and click on the JS utility/volume to look at the effect. You should see the volume on it decreasing on peaks.
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Thanks, There's likely a way to do that still, I mean so your motorized fades move as well, otherwise I'm having a hard time seeing the point
Still one can have both, works just fine..
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Last edited by BorsingPhoto; 08-27-2012 at 01:32 PM.
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10-13-2012, 02:40 PM
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#62
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,802
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This is an awesome feature. I just wish I'd known about it 6 months ago.
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10-14-2012, 08:10 AM
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#63
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 524
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it would be cool if we could see the waveform being altered in real time while adjusting the volume envelope. That would make automation easier. For me at least.
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10-14-2012, 08:27 AM
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#64
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunaj
it would be cool if we could see the waveform being altered in real time while adjusting the volume envelope. That would make automation easier. For me at least.
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This would work with either the Take Volume envelope or the Volume (pre-fx) envelope except neither of them can be assigned Parameter Modulation. That's the bummer.
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10-14-2012, 10:28 AM
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#65
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 524
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but i'll be able to see the the waveform change right? thats what i'm after. I cant get to my pc at the moment but when I tried this a while ago i couldnt pull up an envelope for pre fx
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10-14-2012, 01:40 PM
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#66
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Fayetteville, TN
Posts: 164
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6 got recorded cleanly ($250 walmart Acer Netbook)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dug dog
This is an awesome feature. I just wish I'd known about it 6 months ago.
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Yeah, Reaper is the best out there, BTW last week I needed to survey Fender's Mustang II's USB audio interface to see if I could use My $250 walmart Acer Netbook (Atom CPU, 2GB RAM) for guitar loop/practicing
Since unlike the Roland Cube 80, the Mustangs doesn't have the loop functionality, I spent a couple of hours messing about, and got 6 tracks recorded. I used the Fender's AUX in from the netbook's head phones out, to be able to hear previously recorded tracks, and although two attempts resulted in crackling recordings while 6 got recorded cleanly, I figure it's most likely just a matter of tuning the AISO4ALL's buffers etc to improve results. For practicing purposes it's OK and all I need is a MIDI multi switch/pedal for remote controlling REAPER..
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10-22-2015, 11:01 AM
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#67
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 41
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Major thanks to Cisco Kid, without that 'live' example I'd still be fighting with this.
I'm including my notes in this thread so others don't have to go through what I did. After hours and hours it came down to this, in short, FOR ME, using Reaper 4 in 64 bit, in windows 7 64bit, there's no reason to buy a vocal rider. Reapers works great.
-Waves Vocal Rider, the sidechain is greyed out! so why bother.
-MAutovolume from Meldaproductions, the sidechain feature just doesn't seem to work.
-Reapers volume works fine, just have to know how to set it up. Cisco Kids parameters are the way to go.
Ciscos parameters are up there, the 'sensitivity' percentage is big, above 10% and I get unnatural sounding volumes.
Here are my notes, I hope someone gets some use out of them:
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In order to READ an Envelope which has been written by a VST, the Envelope has to Armed. ( yea, this seems obvious, but it wasn't to me initially)
If the Envelope is still not responding, In the Envelopes dialogue box, press the "Arm all Visible" button. I had to learn this the hard way after 2 hours of putzing around. This seems to check only the 'visible' envelopes underneath the track you've written evelopes to.
Also the "Read" button on the VST in question has to be engaged. In Reaper you could see the envelope slider jumping around to the automation written by the MAutoVolume VST, but with the "Read" button not engaged on MAutoVolume, it wasn't actually manipulating the MAutoVolume Vst.
*Hours later I noticed that having the written envelopes 'read' back the VST, the vocal track was very jumpy, it sounded unusable.* - I tested this again yesterday, the sound upon being read ended up too jumpy to use.
I just tried the same thing with Vocal Rider, wrote vst to the track, set it to Read the envelope back, much better, but why bother with reading envelopes in the first place? I'd run through a track on autogain and render the Auto-levelled track back into Reaper and Mute the Original.
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About the SideChain in MAutoVolume.
I took a rendered mix of a band, drums, bass, everything, to act as a guide for the vocal to 'sit' on. The stereo rendered mix was on Track 1. In order to sidechain it to MAutoVolume i opened the routing box for Track 2 ( where the mono vocal was ) and on the Track Channels dropdown box chose '4'. This will automatically set the Parent channels to '1-4'. So now Track 2 will have 4 lanes showing in the Metering box. Lanes 1 and 2 are for the vocal that was already there, and 3 and 4 are to recieve the stereo mix from Track 1. In the Routing box under Recieves ( you should have routed Track 1 to Track 2 already) you'll see Audio 1/2 => Audio 1/2 -- this means that Track 1's channels 1 and 2 are being sent to Track 2's channels 1 and 2, which the vocal is on, but we don't want that. We want Track 1's stereo mix to route to Track 2's 3rd and 4th channel. So in the routing box for Track 2 simply change the recieve to 3 and 4 ... it'll look like this: Audio 1/2 = > 3/4 . Done.
Now 3/4 are being sidechained into MAutoVolume, you will see the "sidechain" meter in MAutovolume moving because it is being fed signal from Track 1.
I've seen it claimed that you can get the vocal to "move with the audio" in volume. This wasn't my experience. I had the volume of the stereo band mix modulating from Maximum gain to Mininum-as in, no sound. IF there was no sound being outputted by the Band I expected the VST to ride with it to a zero-sound point also. This wasn't the case. The vocals were affected somewhat by the incoming Sidechain, but definitely not riding with it, otherwise if the music was pulled out, the vocals would be too. I did say that the vocals were affected somewhat, but I can't give you a percentage, and had no control over how much they rode the incoming music via sidechain, which brought me to the conclusion that if you have no real control over the amount the vocal rides the music, what use is it? None. Say, for whatever reason you want a vocal to completely decline in volume with a bands volume...you can't do it. So, why people bother with the complication of sidechaining at this point doesn't make sense to me.
THe sidechain on Vocal Rider by Waves doesn't work in Reaper, it is greyed out. The Sidechain on MAutoVolume doesn't really work. Just use Reapers own volume control to even out vocals and bass in general. Then manually adjust the vocals to the music afterwards.
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Just for kicks I put MAutovolume on track 3, I chose channels 3 and 4 to recieve input from a stereo mix from Track 1. So the routing looks like Track 1 - 1/2 = > Track 3 - 3/4. I disabled the Master send on track 1 and no sound came out, then I enabled the Master/parent send on Track 3, and could see channels 3 and 4 meters responding, but there was no sound? Only when I changed the recieves on Track 3 to channels 1/2 did sound come out. Why? 3 and 4 were metering but there was no sound. So, In the routing box in Track 3 there's an option "Add New hardware Output", meaning I have to assign which two channels of the 4 I want to send to the output. There's a dropdown box under "add new hardware output" which has the choices 1/2 ,2/3, 3/4, pick 3/4 since audio is coming from Track 1 to Track 3 like this - 1/2 = > 3/4. Now I've chosen 3/4 to go to outputs 1 and 2, this will make sound whether the Master/Parent box is checked or not.
Finally I rendered three different stems, one of Vocal Riders output, one of MAutoVolumes, one of Reapers Volume control, they all did the exact same job. The Sidechain function on Mautovolume does not work and I tried many kinds of sensitivity setttings, the result was unusable jumpy vocal volumes.
Just use Reapers Volume control. Render it, and do more adjustments after that.
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12-01-2016, 01:31 PM
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#70
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Georgia
Posts: 47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casperfren
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That is SO weird. I ended up on this post the other day and it hasn't seen activity in over a year. Excited to watch the tutorial, thanks!
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Interface: Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 ( Firewire) | My Recordings
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12-03-2016, 08:30 AM
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#71
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 462
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I use Reaper's parameter modulation features in lieu of or in tandem with compression on a lot of things, esp. vox and bass. There's an easier way to do this:
1. open the FX window on the track you want to work on
2. add any volume/gain plugin (I use VolumeKnob from Sleepy time)
3. click "Param" => FX Parameter list => Parameter Modulation => Gain in the fx window
4. check Enable parameter modulation, set the fader to the centre, check Audio control signal, track audio channel 1+2, Direction negative
5. adjust Attack, Release, Strength etc. to taste
This is all on the same track in real time, no writing/reading, etc.
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12-03-2016, 10:59 AM
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#72
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,232
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There are also a couple of scripts now that do similar things via envelope creation and manipulation. Very handy if you want to tweak settings.
Thanks,
BabaG
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12-04-2016, 09:56 AM
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#73
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Georgia
Posts: 47
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So i've tried Casperfren and moribund's method and I can't for the life of my make this sound right. no matter the settings I'm using, even at 10% strength it's just too apparent. Might be better for me to stick with the compressor route. Thanks for the explanations guys!
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Interface: Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 ( Firewire) | My Recordings
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12-08-2016, 12:55 AM
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#74
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,008
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I'd just like to pop in to thank everyone who contributed to this thread, as it opened my eyes to some incredibly useful and efficient automation methods I hadn't come across before. Nice work, everybody.
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12-08-2016, 09:59 AM
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#75
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxy_beef
So i've tried Casperfren and moribund's method and I can't for the life of my make this sound right. no matter the settings I'm using, even at 10% strength it's just too apparent. Might be better for me to stick with the compressor route. Thanks for the explanations guys!
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I think using Reaper parameter mod is kludgy at best.
Try Terry West VocRider or Hornet autogain. Ridiculously cheap and very very good.
https://www.hornetplugins.com/plugins/hornet-autogain/ (~$12)
http://www.terrywest.nl/utils.html (~$10 for vocrider and an entire SUITE of plugins)
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12-08-2016, 01:20 PM
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#76
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,008
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For whatever reason, setting the modulation to 'Negative' resulted in the automation wildly overshooting what I would set it to. I'd set the lowest point to -12 db and the highest to 0 db and the automation would write itself out with -33 and -48 db and back up to 0, jumping all over the place. Not sure what I was doing wrong, I followed the instructions.
However, when I set it to 'Positive' with the attack and release times left quite high (after experimentation I ended up just leaving them both at 300ms), the strength at about 40%, and the lowest point varying from -24db to -27db depending on the loudness of the track, it would write out nice lovely automation curves that followed the waveform gently and smoothly.
Then I'd simply select all the points and invert them and bingo. Lovely smooth automation in seconds.
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"Mah blahkinned sole izz daw-kaw thawn thah blahkissed nye-eeeet!!!"
SQUONK SQUONK SQUEE!!! SQUIDONK SQUIDONK DONK SQUEE!!!
"Thah daaahhhk of thah nye-eeeet izz lye-eeek my-eee sole-aaah!!!"
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12-09-2016, 09:10 AM
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#77
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 39
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I am beginning to record our second album (the first was in a "real" studio), and decided to try out the Waves Vocal Rider. Here's a scratch recording...
https://soundcloud.com/david-lane-16/wayfaring-stranger
I must say that I like Waves Vocal Rider quite a bit. It's very simple and helps to "professionalize" the track.
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12-09-2016, 09:36 AM
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#78
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,572
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I feel like a great approach would be to first hit the vocals with one, and then the other.
But I have never done it as I've never truly considered how it would work.
Also, the slate comps just got to be so awesome in leveling stuff out
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02-15-2017, 04:07 PM
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#79
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 110
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I tried to follow the description. At first it was not working. Then I watched a video, where I could see an extra step I was missing in the description.
Therefore, my question:
Isn't there one step missing in the description (the one I added between #### ?)
No offence here, I just want to make sure I got it right...
1. insert js: utility:volume_pan on the track you wish to automatically automate (sic)
2. click the tracks ENV button: set automation to WRITE
a. check the VOLUME DB box
b. click MOD (yes, the txt)
###########################################
Here I had to click on that little symbol right beside "Volume (dB)/Volume/Pan Smoother" that has a tool tip that says "Modulate this parameter".
Only when I did that another window opened with the checkbox from step c.
Without that extra click I wouldn't get any further because none of the following parameters from the description would show up anywhere.
###########################################
c. check AUDIO CONTROL SIGNAL
d. select the track channels you wish to use
e. check negative/positive to lower/raise respectively
f. volume sliders are like thresholds
g. drag curve (the red dot) to change ratio.
h. press PLAY & watch automation being written (if it doesnt, lower the volume slider)
g. profit
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Last edited by Andaraginga; 02-15-2017 at 05:37 PM.
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02-17-2017, 08:09 AM
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#80
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 462
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This is my method from an earlier thread ( http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ghlight=volume)
Before I do any manual editing or volume envelope editing, I:
Insert VolumeKnob (Sleepy Time Records free plugin; JS: Utility/volume will work just as well) into your vocal channel. Click Param > FX Parameter List > Parameter Modulation > Gain. The Parameter Modulation for Gain will open. Move the slider to the centre, click Audio Control Signal. Set Track Audio Channel to either 1 or 1+2 (if your vox track is mono 1 will suffice). As a starting point, set the Attack to 5ms, release to 80ms. set the Direction to Negative.
From here you just set it to taste. The 1st thing you'll probably want to do is lower the strength so the effect isn't so obvious. Depending on material, I usually end up with this between 10-50%. You can also adjust the Min volume to control the strength of the effect.
I've never seen any point to trying to use a plugin to draw in all that automation (someone please enlighten me if I'm missing something), when this method will produce the same results with far less screwing around (again someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
Anwyay, this is a really effective way to get transparent levelling on any track. I'll usually follow this later in the chain with some compression too, but inserting this at or near the beginning of a track really smooths things out. Give it a try.
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