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Old 04-22-2017, 11:03 PM   #1
Midnight Oil Audio
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Default Reaper performance question from a new user

Hi everyone, I have owned Reaper for a while now and I am using the latest version. The switch from PT to Reaper was mainly due to being able to use the newest Acustica Audio plugins, which are terrible in PT. I am seeing much better CPU performance in Reaper. HOWEVER, I am experience a decent amount of audio stuttering/glitching during playback and it seems to be caused by the graphics display. What I mean is, when I scroll around during playback, I get a lot of this stuttering/glitching vs if I just let the screen sit still. If I just leave the screen view static, I will still get some weird stuttering/glitching, but not nearly as much.

I am open to configuring my graphics/systems settings in whatever way will improve performance. My setup is as follows:

Windows 7, latest updates installed
Reaper 5.4.0
Intel I7 4790K
Asus Z97 Extreme4 Motherboard
16 gigs of DDR3 RAM
SSD for OS, DAW's and plugins
Platter-type drives for session files
NVidia Quaddro 600 graphics card
Albert C V5 THEME :: Pro X-TOOLS Gold ED. V3

I tried switching to the default theme, but it didn't seem to make matters any better regarding the audio performance. Thank you in advance for any and all help.
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Old 04-23-2017, 12:29 AM   #2
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Hi and welcome to the forums.

Hopefully you already downloaded the free user guide and checked out some of the free videos - lookup from this post and you will see the links in the page header.

Job one would appear to be downloading and running resplendence.com's dpc latency checking utility to see if that throws up any issues with your computer.

The one thing you didnt mention in your post is what audio/MIDI interface you are using & it sounds like you might have your setup configured incorrectly.
I assume you are already using a "proper" interface and its own ASIO drivers in Reaper?

The brief experience I had with Acustica was that their stuff erally hogs cpu even if you have the paid version, so it could still be an Acustica issue.
Hopefully this will give you something to check out in the meantime.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:09 AM   #3
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Thanks for the reply and tips, ivansc.

I use a Focusrite Saffire Pro40 as my interface, and I am using the ASIO driver for that as well. I have played with buffer settings to no avail.

I have downloaded the resplendence.com dpc latency checking tool as of 10 seconds ago and will give it a whirl.

Yes, the Acustica plugs are CPU hogs, but my CPU monitor says I am around 30% CPU usage in these sessions that are glitching/stuttering for me, and my RAM usage is around 3gigs, with the performance meter showing I still have 10gigs "free" on my system. I have another question about that, but I will save it for later.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:39 AM   #4
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yep my bet is the Nebula stuff... expecially if you have several of them running... [you do, right?]

so hey... simple test... make and save as a copy of the project
delete all or most of the Neb's and see what ya get.

Most folks using the Acoustica Audio stuff in large doses, know that they will not work well in real time.....

One solution could be to freeze tracks that have them once you have that track dialed in... you can unfreeze to make further tweaks later...
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:20 AM   #5
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yep my bet is the Nebula stuff... expecially if you have several of them running... [you do, right?]

so hey... simple test... make and save as a copy of the project
delete all or most of the Neb's and see what ya get.

Most folks using the Acoustica Audio stuff in large doses, know that they will not work well in real time.....

One solution could be to freeze tracks that have them once you have that track dialed in... you can unfreeze to make further tweaks later...
The thing is that reaper is supposedly the best/most efficient host for running nebula/acqua in. If using the GUI is a problem, I'd personally revisit video card drivers, dpc, settings, etc.

Not that I have used windows much for many years, but still remember some stuff
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Old 04-23-2017, 12:24 PM   #6
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yes Jack... I agree with that in concept... and what I suggested is not a slight on Neb's nor on reaper.... rather it is a way to see what load the Neb's put on the system, and IF the Video card is OK without them...

Given that knowledge, we can think further... without it we don't eliminate other possible variables.... step by step...
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:38 PM   #7
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Hi guys, just thought I would check back in and update my findings.

I did as suggested and saved an alternate copy of my session and took off all the Acustica plugs. As expected, this cleared up all the glitches and pops. I should mention this session was running at 96kHz.

I am running a session at the moment at 48kHz with a bunch of AA plugs and it is much much better. Only a couple of little stutters here and there. These things really are CPU hogs, but damn do they sound good.
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:27 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Midnight Oil Audio View Post
Hi guys, just thought I would check back in and update my findings.

I did as suggested and saved an alternate copy of my session and took off all the Acustica plugs. As expected, this cleared up all the glitches and pops. I should mention this session was running at 96kHz.

I am running a session at the moment at 48kHz with a bunch of AA plugs and it is much much better. Only a couple of little stutters here and there. These things really are CPU hogs, but damn do they sound good.
well there ya go... at least you know what the issue is

so now you are left with doing either freezes per track or a realtime render of one track at a time so you can remove some of the load...

96 is pretty high... is there some reason you need that? I know some of the Neb's offer those freq's in their samples but I don't need or use them...
They still sound good at the lower resolutions.... maybe try that as well?

I think the PC I'm on right now is similar but with the 3930K i7... so 6 cores instead of quad and also a ton more ram...
I can run quite a few Neb's but at some point the load becomes too much... it's always gonna be a balancing act...
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Midnight Oil Audio View Post
Hi guys, just thought I would check back in and update my findings.

I did as suggested and saved an alternate copy of my session and took off all the Acustica plugs. As expected, this cleared up all the glitches and pops. I should mention this session was running at 96kHz.

I am running a session at the moment at 48kHz with a bunch of AA plugs and it is much much better. Only a couple of little stutters here and there. These things really are CPU hogs, but damn do they sound good.
The cold truth is Acustica Audio don't know how to optimize their code very well. The interface part is badly coded, so there isn't much you can do apart from not showing the GUI of their plugins during playback. Check that you have the latest drivers of your videocard and if it doesn't help, freeze the tracks.

In general, above 25% of CPU usage, real time replay is problematic in Reaper under Windows. It's disappointing, but Windows isn't a real time system. I don't know how much it is under Mac and Linux but I suspect it is better.

Last edited by lolilol1975; 04-23-2017 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:11 PM   #10
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well there ya go... at least you know what the issue is

so now you are left with doing either freezes per track or a realtime render of one track at a time so you can remove some of the load...

96 is pretty high... is there some reason you need that? I know some of the Neb's offer those freq's in their samples but I don't need or use them...
They still sound good at the lower resolutions.... maybe try that as well?

I think the PC I'm on right now is similar but with the 3930K i7... so 6 cores instead of quad and also a ton more ram...
I can run quite a few Neb's but at some point the load becomes too much... it's always gonna be a balancing act...
I was running this particular mix at 96kHz because the studio that recorded it
Did it at 96kHz. I know that SRC's are very good nowadays, but I don't like downsampling to mix. The studio expects to get the mix back at its native rate, so I work at whatever they give me.

You do seem quite knowledgeable about this stuff, so I'd like to ask you this: would I likey benefit from more RAM? Currently at 16gigs as mentioned above, but I can upgrade to 32. The thing is, when looking at the performance meter in Reaper, it looks like I have a bunch of memory free even while running a session that is quite taxing. I don't use virtual instruments much, so maybe I wouldn't benefit much from a memory increase. Thoughts?
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:13 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by lolilol1975 View Post
The cold truth is Acustica Audio don't know how to optimize their code. The interface part is badly coded, so there isn't much you can do apart from not showing the GUI of their plugins during playback. Check that you have the latest drivers of your videocard and if it doesn't help, freeze the tracks.
Hi there, I won't argue if Acustica knows how to code or not, but what I DO know is that their plugins are incredible sounding. Essentially they are sample libraries, not algorithmic, hence the quirky behavior. I am willing to put up with it for the time being, because they offer something that I haven't heard in any other plugin, though some come close.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:16 PM   #12
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I was running this particular mix at 96kHz because the studio that recorded it
Did it at 96kHz. I know that SRC's are very good nowadays, but I don't like downsampling to mix. The studio expects to get the mix back at its native rate, so I work at whatever they give me.

You do seem quite knowledgeable about this stuff, so I'd like to ask you this: would I likey benefit from more RAM? Currently at 16gigs as mentioned above, but I can upgrade to 32. The thing is, when looking at the performance meter in Reaper, it looks like I have a bunch of memory free even while running a session that is quite taxing. I don't use virtual instruments much, so maybe I wouldn't benefit much from a memory increase. Thoughts?
You can try running under Linux (with the right video driver), maybe, if it's okay for you. Or freeze tracks.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:17 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Midnight Oil Audio View Post
Hi there, I won't argue if Acustica knows how to code or not, but what I DO know is that their plugins are incredible sounding. Essentially they are sample libraries, not algorithmic, hence the quirky behavior. I am willing to put up with it for the time being, because they offer something that I haven't heard in any other plugin, though some come close.
I know they sound good, I have a bunch of their free plugins, that's not the problem. But they are not efficiently written, that's for sure.
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Old 04-24-2017, 03:55 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Midnight Oil Audio View Post
would I likey benefit from more RAM? Currently at 16gigs as mentioned above, but I can upgrade to 32. The thing is, when looking at the performance meter in Reaper, it looks like I have a bunch of memory free even while running a session that is quite taxing. I don't use virtual instruments much, so maybe I wouldn't benefit much from a memory increase. Thoughts?
Unless you would be using plugins with huge sample libraries, you'd get better performance benefit from a faster CPU than more RAM. And with CPUs, it's the single core speed which will make the difference for the audio playback, more than the number of cores.

One tip to ease the load is to not run too many plugins in Master track. For a test you could make a separate bus for all the plugins you might now have in Master and compare, the results can be surprising.
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Old 04-24-2017, 04:15 AM   #15
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A few tips for using nebula in reaper. Right click on a track and chose move track to sub prj. That makes a prj just for that track where you can add your nebula fx chain. When you close that prj it gets rendered and will playback in the master prj without hardly any cpu use, if you double click on the new media item it will open the prj and allow you to change fx settings. Similar to freeze but IMO nicer.

The second was already mentioned, but don't put nebula plugins on the master, rather wrap all the tracks in a folder track, and put your nebula master fx on the folder track instead, this will let you use more fx.

If you run out of steam you can also try to up the anticipative fx render ahead buffer.
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Old 04-24-2017, 05:07 AM   #16
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1. Switch to Windows 10. Windows 7 is not as stable or as good. It is obsolete.

2. Use 44.1 instead of 96 - There is no objectively valid reason to use 96.
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Old 04-24-2017, 05:15 AM   #17
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The cold truth is Acustica Audio don't know how to optimize their code very well. The interface part is badly coded, so there isn't much you can do apart from not showing the GUI of their plugins during playback.
That's all bollocks. The truth is that some DSP uses a lot more CPU than other DSP. Also Nebula programs can be tens or hundred of MBs in size. That's a lot of information being processed. How much that could be further optimised is anybody's guess, but to point at a plugin that uses higher CPU and blame the developers is just wrong.
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Check that you have the latest drivers of your videocard...
Yes, change the default graphics driver to integrated in the NVidia software. If that's already the case and Reaper is already using integrated then disable NVidia in Device Manager to check if that works better.
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In general, above 25% of CPU usage, real time replay is problematic in Reaper under Windows. It's disappointing, but Windows isn't a real time system. I don't know how much it is under Mac and Linux but I suspect it is better.
You're confusing extremely low latency performance with general performance there. The lower the buffer size the less time is available for processing. Fortunately PCs running Windows can run twice the number of plugins that Macs running OSX can... at very low latencies.

You'll notice that the (mostly meaningless anyway) max RT CPU achievable goes up as the buffer size does. Up to 80% or whatever. But the important thing to take away is not meaningless percentages, but that Windows is that proven king of low latency performance.

---------------------------------

@Midnight Oil Audio: what buffer size are you using?
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Old 04-24-2017, 07:09 AM   #18
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1. Switch to Windows 10. Windows 7 is not as stable or as good. It is obsolete.

2. Use 44.1 instead of 96 - There is no objectively valid reason to use 96.
I have experience, and the testimony of one of Acusticas Beta-Testers that refutes this claim.
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Old 04-24-2017, 07:18 AM   #19
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@Midnight Oil Audio: what buffer size are you using?
Hi Snooks, on the 96kHz session in question I was using a 2048 buffer, but also played around with 1024 and it didn't seem to make much of a difference.

I ran resplendance.com's latency checking utility and it reported that my system is a good candidate for real-time audio processing.
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Old 04-24-2017, 07:21 AM   #20
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2. Use 44.1 instead of 96 - There is no objectively valid reason to use 96.
This is false.

Testing has failed to show any benefit for high sample rates in delivery format, but there are plenty of replicable tests that show it is beneficial for signal processing.
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Old 04-24-2017, 07:31 AM   #21
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2. Use 44.1 instead of 96 - There is no objectively valid reason to use 96.
Forgot to comment on this one.

Besides the fact, which has already been pointed out, that some plugins process better at higher sample rates, I believe you may have missed where I said I am doing this mix for a studio that recorded in this sample rate. They want it delivered back in that sample rate. As they are the customer and I am the service provider, I will honor their wishes and keep it at 96kHz.
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Old 04-24-2017, 07:34 AM   #22
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I was going to suggest freezing tracks, but Jack Winter has a slightly different solution above, and I know he uses Nebula a lot so I would take his advice
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Old 04-24-2017, 07:39 AM   #23
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1. Switch to Windows 10. Windows 7 is not as stable or as good. It is obsolete.
I don't agree... and I have both
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Old 04-24-2017, 07:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Midnight Oil Audio View Post
I was running this particular mix at 96kHz because the studio that recorded it
Did it at 96kHz. I know that SRC's are very good nowadays, but I don't like downsampling to mix. The studio expects to get the mix back at its native rate, so I work at whatever they give me.

You do seem quite knowledgeable about this stuff, so I'd like to ask you this: would I likey benefit from more RAM? Currently at 16gigs as mentioned above, but I can upgrade to 32. The thing is, when looking at the performance meter in Reaper, it looks like I have a bunch of memory free even while running a session that is quite taxing. I don't use virtual instruments much, so maybe I wouldn't benefit much from a memory increase. Thoughts?
I see...makes sense

well you likely would not benefit from more ram then...
you would benefit from a more powerful cpu...

hmm... comment about AA coding: For starters Giovanni is pretty brilliant, eh? He has been developing and inproving his code for years and it IS something that nobody else has done... let's not forget that.

That it can bring a cpu to it's knees is just part of the game... it has gotten better over time. I used to try an run it on a rather whimmpy XP machine and could barely use one instance. When I went to i7 and 64 bit things got a LOT better.

AA use to have a scheme to use the CUDA cores of powerful video cards but I believe that was dropped as cpu's became more powerful.

Jack presents some good workarounds, but in short... want more Neb's? Get the meanest cpu you can!!!
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:37 AM   #25
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Hi Snooks, on the 96kHz session in question I was using a 2048 buffer, but also played around with 1024 and it didn't seem to make much of a difference.

I ran resplendance.com's latency checking utility and it reported that my system is a good candidate for real-time audio processing.
Cool, check that you're using Integrated graphics as the global default (and obviously Reaper) in the Nvidia Control Panel. Nvidia causes pops and crackles a smidge before integrated here. That's only going to get a tad more headroom, if any - but it might limit the crackling from messing with the GUI.

Aside from that, you have an unlocked, overclockable processor, so I'd overclock that. And your memory. Nebula is a memory intensive plugin, so it's worth a bash to see what happens.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:06 AM   #26
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I was going to suggest freezing tracks, but Jack Winter has a slightly different solution above, and I know he uses Nebula a lot so I would take his advice
I just play with it Freezing would also be good, but I find using a sub prj preferable. Matter of taste I suppose!
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:25 AM   #27
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I just play with it Freezing would also be good, but I find using a sub prj preferable. Matter of taste I suppose!
Hi, thank you for the above suggestions.

The Acustica VST plugins work a little different than the Nebula libraries though, unless I am mistaken. One question I do have though, is if it possible to "freeze" up to a certain plugin in a chain?

Let's say I have an EQ, followed by a preamp emulation, followed by a compressor. Could I just "freeze" the EQ and preamp?
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:32 AM   #28
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Hi, thank you for the above suggestions.

The Acustica VST plugins work a little different than the Nebula libraries though, unless I am mistaken. One question I do have though, is if it possible to "freeze" up to a certain plugin in a chain?

Let's say I have an EQ, followed by a preamp emulation, followed by a compressor. Could I just "freeze" the EQ and preamp?
You could add the EQ and preamp, then freeze, then add a compressor to the frozen track (and freeze again, if you wanted).

I'd suggest making sure your freeze preferences are rendering 32 or 64 bit files too.

I don't use AA plugins, but I do freeze a lot. My workflow is to get everything composed and recorded, then save as a new project, then I add all front-end "tracking" plugs, then freeze all tracks and unlock all items, then save as a new project again, then mix and freeze again as I go along.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:33 AM   #29
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Hi, thank you for the above suggestions.

The Acustica VST plugins work a little different than the Nebula libraries though, unless I am mistaken. One question I do have though, is if it possible to "freeze" up to a certain plugin in a chain?

Let's say I have an EQ, followed by a preamp emulation, followed by a compressor. Could I just "freeze" the EQ and preamp?
Yes, in the fx browser by selecting a plugin and then chosing freeze up to last selected fx. Don't think sub prj can do this in one go, but you could have the heavy fx in the sub prj (thus rendered) and then the light fx on the track in the main prj.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:34 AM   #30
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Yes, in the fx browser by selecting a plugin and then chosing freeze up to last selected fx.
Sweet, I did not know about that!

Thanks
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:40 AM   #31
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Thank you all very much. This forum is definitely one of the more helpful that I am on. If anyone is interested in hearing the end product of what I am mixing, I wouldn't mind sharing it. It's actually quite good (the music, not my mix ).
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:59 AM   #32
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Thank you all very much. This forum is definitely one of the more helpful that I am on. If anyone is interested in hearing the end product of what I am mixing, I wouldn't mind sharing it. It's actually quite good (the music, not my mix ).
Would love to, please post a link when you are done.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:59 AM   #33
serr
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I see a lot of 'shot in the dark' comments about RAM count and then digression on HD vs. SD sample rates.

I see one mention of buffer settings but it's a little ambiguous.

The I/O buffer (the one that sets the latency of the system) is called block size in Reaper and is found on the Preferences/Audio/Device page.

There's a common misconception about latency that the lower it's set, the better.

Low latency is only needed for live sound and live sound performance. If you aren't running live sound through your system, you'll never even hear the results of your latency setting. Live meaning monitoring the live input after processing and sent to the output. If you are mixing back already recorded tracks or just recording tracks, your latency could be 20 minutes and you'd be none the wiser.

This leads to the common mistake of thinking you have to try to run with the lowest latency settings at all times. You might have a perfectly capable system for mixing HD audio with some heavy weight plugins if you set the latency high when you aren't running live sound.

Try 1024 samples for a 'set it and forget it' high setting.
Remember that you need to check that box next to Block Size to enable the control. Unchecked means ignore any value entered there and let a 3rd party audio app control this. (Some stubborn proprietary control panel apps require this flexibility.)


Just mentioning this in case it was overlooked and/or not understood.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:05 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
Just mentioning this in case it was overlooked and/or not understood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight Oil Audio View Post
Hi Snooks, on the 96kHz session in question I was using a 2048 buffer, but also played around with 1024 and it didn't seem to make much of a difference.
I'm presuming Midnight Oil Audio was correctly changing the request block size figure, and not changing the media buffer (as a fair few people new to Reaper end up doing).
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Old 04-24-2017, 04:54 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
I'm presuming Midnight Oil Audio was correctly changing the request block size figure, and not changing the media buffer (as a fair few people new to Reaper end up doing).
Your presumption is correct.
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Old 04-24-2017, 05:01 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
I'm presuming Midnight Oil Audio was correctly changing the request block size figure, and not changing the media buffer (as a fair few people new to Reaper end up doing).
And to be sure to change it in the sound card properties if you are unsure if the reaper buffer setting is working. For example, none of my sound cards are affected by Reaper's audio buffer settings so I always set buffer size by opening device prefs in reaper, then clicking the ASIO configuration button in Reaper's dialog which then pulls up the SC CP - we want to do it through Reaper if Reaper is running because reaper is the one who owns the handle to the SC in this scenario - otherwise you may set it externally and it revert by the time Reaper gets focus again.
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