Track Sends Pre-Item FX

[MRMJP]

Just a friendly bump for 5.31 or 5.32

Enough with the MIDI and Notation Editor already

[Hippocratic Mastering]

+1. Would be very useful.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Hippocratic Mastering

+1. Would be very useful.

Just a friendly bump for this. In a mastering context, we really need a way to send a version of items to an alternate stereo output but without an item FX. The purpose of this is to A/B the audio in real-time on a monitor controller between the original untouched audio and the work in progress.

My attempt to use plugin pins did not really work. Too many weird issues like latency when the FX blend is used.

For now I just have to copy all the items to a dummy track that is routed to the alternate output, but this method requires extra track management and complicates things when the source file is replaced/updated, or if the item gain is changed on the original item. It's too much extra management.

It would be so nice to have a simple way to send an item's audio stream to another output prior to any item FX.

[Hippocratic Mastering]

Agreed. I use the pins but they still don't work properly when copying an FX chain (as opposed to copying the individual FX within that chain) so it's a less than perfect solution.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Hippocratic Mastering

Agreed. I use the pins but they still don't work properly when copying an FX chain (as opposed to copying the individual FX within that chain) so it's a less than perfect solution.

Yes, using the pins can get messy for a few reasons. Plus, if you use the pins of the first plugin inserted on the item, you either have to use a simple "dummy" plugin just for the sake of the pins, or if you do it from the first real plugin, then it's not a truly pure/natural signal. It has the influence of the first plugin.

[MRMJP]

Bump. Would be HUGE to see this. YUGE.

[MRMJP]

Wondering if Justin or Schwa can weigh in and say if this will maybe happen some day or never happen.

From a mastering context, there is huge advantage to having a reliable way to send a version of an item to a different hardware output without any item FX applied so that we can do a proper A/B comparison.

I've tried ReaInsert and plugin pin connectors as the first item FX insert and neither of those work reliably. It's too easy to run into a latency issue when the FX blend knob is used and other anomalies occurred so I stopped using either of those methods.

What I've been doing is making a 2nd audio track with a duplicate of the original items, and sending that track to the secondary hardware output so I can do real-time A/B on my monitor controller.

The problem is that managing another track can be a hassle. Especially when a client sends a new mix to be mastered, or while working and I have to tweak the item gain, then I have to do it on both items and it gets to be a little much to manage.

It would be very smooth if there could be a way to send audio from items or even from a track but without any item FX applied.

Thanks.

[Robert Randolph]

If I understand you properly, this is possible. I wanted to do something similar (send from a media item FX position to a specific track output)

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=190911

I can elaborate and probably make a blog post about this later if needed.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Robert Randolph

If I understand you properly, this is possible. I wanted to do something similar (send from a media item FX position to a specific track output)

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=190911

I can elaborate and probably make a blog post about this later if needed.

Thanks. I may have tried this already but ran into issues with plugin pin connectors not properly copy and pasting to other items, and latency issues with some plugins when the FX blend knob is used.

I basically want to send an item to multiple outputs which I know is possible, but you can also get into trouble if you try to copy/paste FX chains and use the FX blend.

The goal is to have one item and send a raw stream to a certain hardware output before any item FX, as well as put plugins on the item and send that to the output of the track that the item is on as you normally would. I actually had the track output going to two different stereo outputs.

To summarize:

Stereo Send Of Item without item or track FX
Stereo Send Of Track Output to D/A #1
Stereo Send Of Track Output to D/A #2

Right now to get a raw stream of an item with no FX, I have to duplicate the track before adding any FX and send that track to the alternate hardware send which makes managing any changes to the source files a hassle.

The goal would be to have just one source track that can do all 3 of those things.

[Robert Randolph]

Ok, so I just double checked myself here and (unless I am misunderstanding you) this is definitely possible, at least as a workaround.

Copying the FX to another media item works correctly for me here as well.

(inclusive routing version) If you want the FX item to output to the track itself and your hardware output:

• Set Track channels to 4
• Add hardware output to Track. Send 3/4 to your hardware output of choice
• Add ReaSurround to Media Item
• Set ReaSurround to 2 input, Quadraphonic
• Set ReaSurround Front Left/Right outputs to 0 (Not required, but peace of mind)
• Set ReaSurround Space size X/Z to max
• Set ReaSurround Space size Y to 0
• Set ReaSurround 1/2 dots to the left and right speakers as shown above

Now the media item is routing to 1/2 and 3/4 simultaneously on the track. 1/2 works 'as normal', and 3/4 routes to your setup hardware output.

In the example above I'm routing to another hardware output and processing the media item with ReaVerbate 'as normal'. The ReaVerbate signal is outputting to the track as expected.

(exclusive routing version) If you want the media item to only output to a hardware output and not the track:



Similar instructions to above, but slightly different

• Set Track channels to 4
• Add hardware output to Track. Send 3/4 to your hardware output of choice
• Add ReaSurround to Media Item
• Set ReaSurround to 2 input, Quadraphonic
• Set ReaSurround Front Left/Right outputs to 0 (Not required, but peace of mind)
• Set ReaSurround Space size X/Y/Z to max (this makes it easier)
• Set ReaSurround 1/2 dots to the lower left and lower right speakers as shown above

Now your media Item will be routed to 3/4, which is connected to your hardware output as you set.

With this setup, the media item will not be heard through the track itself, and only through 3/4 which is sent to the hardware output. This is not what you asked for, but I am covering it for other folks reading.

Addendum:

Rather than setting up 3/4 as a hardware output, you could also just send 3/4 to another track (using the exclusive version). Then you could do whatever you want with that track.

I've been using this so that I can have tracks that correspond to media items. I find this much easier for mixing dialog/vocals than messing with the media items themselves.

I have a project here with all 20 media items all sent to different tracks (each one goes to its own routing output, then that routes to a track). It's annoying to setup at first, but it makes mixing and editing sooooooooo much easier than splitting media items to their own tracks.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Robert Randolph

Ok, so I just double checked myself here and (unless I am misunderstanding you) this is definitely possible, at least as a workaround.

Copying the FX to another media item works correctly for me here as well.

(inclusive routing version) If you want the FX item to output to the track itself and your hardware output:

• Set Track channels to 4
• Add hardware output to Track. Send 3/4 to your hardware output of choice
• Add ReaSurround to Media Item
• Set ReaSurround to 2 input, Quadraphonic
• Set ReaSurround Front Left/Right outputs to 0 (Not required, but peace of mind)
• Set ReaSurround Space size X/Z to max
• Set ReaSurround Space size Y to 0
• Set ReaSurround 1/2 dots to the left and right speakers as shown above

Now the media item is routing to 1/2 and 3/4 simultaneously on the track. 1/2 works 'as normal', and 3/4 routes to your setup hardware output.

In the example above I'm routing to another hardware output and processing the media item with ReaVerbate 'as normal'. The ReaVerbate signal is outputting to the track as expected.

(exclusive routing version) If you want the media item to only output to a hardware output and not the track:



Similar instructions to above, but slightly different

• Set Track channels to 4
• Add hardware output to Track. Send 3/4 to your hardware output of choice
• Add ReaSurround to Media Item
• Set ReaSurround to 2 input, Quadraphonic
• Set ReaSurround Front Left/Right outputs to 0 (Not required, but peace of mind)
• Set ReaSurround Space size X/Y/Z to max (this makes it easier)
• Set ReaSurround 1/2 dots to the lower left and lower right speakers as shown above

Now your media Item will be routed to 3/4, which is connected to your hardware output as you set.

With this setup, the media item will not be heard through the track itself, and only through 3/4 which is sent to the hardware output. This is not what you asked for, but I am covering it for other folks reading.

Addendum:

Rather than setting up 3/4 as a hardware output, you could also just send 3/4 to another track (using the exclusive version). Then you could do whatever you want with that track.

I've been using this so that I can have tracks that correspond to media items. I find this much easier for mixing dialog/vocals than messing with the media items themselves.

I have a project here with all 20 media items all sent to different tracks (each one goes to its own routing output, then that routes to a track). It's annoying to setup at first, but it makes mixing and editing sooooooooo much easier than splitting media items to their own tracks.

Thanks. I'm a bit swamped the next day or two but I'll try again when I have a moment. I appreciate the help.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

Thanks. I'm a bit swamped the next day or two but I'll try again when I have a moment. I appreciate the help.

I finally had a chance to look at this and still couldn't get it.

On the track, I'm already sending to outputs 3 and 4 as well as 5 and 6. This would be outputs 7 and 8 that need to go out unprocessed. Outputs 1/2 are my main monitor outs.

Anything that I could get happening was still including the processing of the plugin after it.

So to summarize:

I need to send an item to output 7-8 without any item FX applied. The Item FX that follow the ReaSurround plugin need to be present on what is sent to the track. The track routing is already 4 channels and sending to two different stereo outputs 3/4 and 5/6.

If you have any additional ideas, please let me know. I think we're close with ReaSurrond but not quite there.

I basically need to put a plugin as the first insert on an item and use that plugin to send the item to output 7/8 at that insert point, so that no plugins following ReaSurrond are present on the send to hardware out 7/8.

The audio sending to hardware out 3/4 and 5/6 can have the item FX applied which is what I'm already doing.

[Robert Randolph]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

I finally had a chance to look at this and still couldn't get it.

On the track, I'm already sending to outputs 3 and 4 as well as 5 and 6. This would be outputs 7 and 8 that need to go out unprocessed. Outputs 1/2 are my main monitor outs.

Anything that I could get happening was still including the processing of the plugin after it.

So to summarize:

I need to send an item to output 7-8 without any item FX applied. The Item FX that follow the ReaSurround plugin need to be present on what is sent to the track. The track routing is already 4 channels and sending to two different stereo outputs 3/4 and 5/6.

If you have any additional ideas, please let me know. I think we're close with ReaSurrond but not quite there.

I basically need to put a plugin as the first insert on an item and use that plugin to send the item to output 7/8 at that insert point, so that no plugins following ReaSurrond are present on the send to hardware out 7/8.

The audio sending to hardware out 3/4 and 5/6 can have the item FX applied which is what I'm already doing.

Do you have the 7/8 ReaSurround output at the beginning of the FX stack?

I just followed my directions one-by-one and got the result that it seems like you want.

My only thought is that maybe you have your "ReaSurround send" in the wrong FX slot.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Robert Randolph

Do you have the 7/8 ReaSurround output at the beginning of the FX stack?

I just followed my directions one-by-one and got the result that it seems like you want.

My only thought is that maybe you have your "ReaSurround send" in the wrong FX slot.

I think that's what I need help with. Could you post a scene shot of how the ReaSurround plugin should be set?

Also, maybe I missed the step about the ReaSurround send, is that a separate thing or inside the ReaSurround plugin?

[Robert Randolph]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

I think that's what I need help with. Could you post a scene shot of how the ReaSurround plugin should be set?

Also, maybe I missed the step about the ReaSurround send, is that a separate thing or inside the ReaSurround plugin?

The instruction post above has an image of how it should be setup.

ReaSurround is just being used to move audio from 1/2 to 3/4 on that track. Then the track has a send set from 3/4 to your hardware. (In my example)

Then you create a send from what ReaSurround is routing to, to your hardware output.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by Robert Randolph

The instruction post above has an image of how it should be setup.

ReaSurround is just being used to move audio from 1/2 to 3/4 on that track. Then the track has a send set from 3/4 to your hardware. (In my example)

Then you create a send from what ReaSurround is routing to, to your hardware output.

Thanks, I'll take a closer look next time I can.

[electrodaddy]

Another bump and request for this feature. Again, this would be very welcome for my mastering workflow.

[mmarra]

Additional bump and request for this feature. This would bring Reaper closer to be a great mastering DAW.

[mmarra]

Hi @Robert Randolph, I am brand new to Reaper, coming from Magix Samp & Seq. If I understand your instructions below for inclusive routing version, depending on where I place the ReaSurround plugin in my FX chain that is where the hardware will be position/played at?

Meaning if I have ReaSurround first in my Item FX chain then two VST plugins (EQ & Limiter)...the hardware output sound will be before the EQ & Limiter VST plugins in the chain?

Thank you for your help.

Originally Posted by Robert Randolph

Ok, so I just double checked myself here and (unless I am misunderstanding you) this is definitely possible, at least as a workaround.

Copying the FX to another media item works correctly for me here as well.

(inclusive routing version) If you want the FX item to output to the track itself and your hardware output:

• Set Track channels to 4
• Add hardware output to Track. Send 3/4 to your hardware output of choice
• Add ReaSurround to Media Item
• Set ReaSurround to 2 input, Quadraphonic
• Set ReaSurround Front Left/Right outputs to 0 (Not required, but peace of mind)
• Set ReaSurround Space size X/Z to max
• Set ReaSurround Space size Y to 0
• Set ReaSurround 1/2 dots to the left and right speakers as shown above

Now the media item is routing to 1/2 and 3/4 simultaneously on the track. 1/2 works 'as normal', and 3/4 routes to your setup hardware output.

In the example above I'm routing to another hardware output and processing the media item with ReaVerbate 'as normal'. The ReaVerbate signal is outputting to the track as expected.

(exclusive routing version) If you want the media item to only output to a hardware output and not the track:



Similar instructions to above, but slightly different

• Set Track channels to 4
• Add hardware output to Track. Send 3/4 to your hardware output of choice
• Add ReaSurround to Media Item
• Set ReaSurround to 2 input, Quadraphonic
• Set ReaSurround Front Left/Right outputs to 0 (Not required, but peace of mind)
• Set ReaSurround Space size X/Y/Z to max (this makes it easier)
• Set ReaSurround 1/2 dots to the lower left and lower right speakers as shown above

Now your media Item will be routed to 3/4, which is connected to your hardware output as you set.

With this setup, the media item will not be heard through the track itself, and only through 3/4 which is sent to the hardware output. This is not what you asked for, but I am covering it for other folks reading.

Addendum:

Rather than setting up 3/4 as a hardware output, you could also just send 3/4 to another track (using the exclusive version). Then you could do whatever you want with that track.

I've been using this so that I can have tracks that correspond to media items. I find this much easier for mixing dialog/vocals than messing with the media items themselves.

I have a project here with all 20 media items all sent to different tracks (each one goes to its own routing output, then that routes to a track). It's annoying to setup at first, but it makes mixing and editing sooooooooo much easier than splitting media items to their own tracks.

[MRMJP]

I've tried all of these work arounds but none of them work without compromise and some are extremely convoluted and not worth it.

It would be really nice to see a native way to send an item to another hardware output prior to any item FX and track FX.

[MRMJP]

One of the handful of things that could launch REAPER to the top of the list for fully all in one mastering DAWs for both Mac and PC.

Until now, no suggested workarounds are better than duplicating the source track and manually managing it which isn't too big of deal but would be nice to avoid having to do, especially when the source file has to change.

[James HE]

so you want a pre - everything hardware out - and you want to be able to A/B things without dealing with differences in latency, right?

using any sort of plugin to MULT the signal and sending to the hardware further down the chain. Sounds like you ran into issues using this due to differences in latency?

A plugin does seem limiting here as it's not easy to simply bypass the effects on the item / track without messing up the routing.

I don't think having pre-item sends would prevent the problem with latency, actually.

You are dealing with stereo files correct?

I think what you need to do is render out all your files that you are working with into 4 channel audio files. basically dupe Left into in 3, Right into 4. (you can setup a chain with something like ReaSurround to do the mult, you could do a batch render if working with multiple files)

Then you can manage the outputs to the hardware at the track level. Not 100% that this solves any latency issues though, and you might have to watch out for things like sidechains, needs testing.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by James HE

so you want a pre - everything hardware out - and you want to be able to A/B things without dealing with differences in latency, right?

using any sort of plugin to MULT the signal and sending to the hardware further down the chain. Sounds like you ran into issues using this due to differences in latency?

A plugin does seem limiting here as it's not easy to simply bypass the effects on the item / track without messing up the routing.

I don't think having pre-item sends would prevent the problem with latency, actually.

You are dealing with stereo files correct?

I think what you need to do is render out all your files that you are working with into 4 channel audio files. basically dupe Left into in 3, Right into 4. (you can setup a chain with something like ReaSurround to do the mult, you could do a batch render if working with multiple files)

Then you can manage the outputs to the hardware at the track level. Not 100% that this solves any latency issues though, and you might have to watch out for things like sidechains, needs testing.

Thanks for the info but the workaround is a bit more involved than it's worth.

Latency is a concern so ideally the send itself would compensate to be in sync with the item containing FX.

I'm guessing this will probably never be able to happen but it would be an awesome feature for mastering engineers using Item FX and analog gear to more easily A/B the unprocessed audio vs. what they are doing to it.

[James HE]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

Thanks for the info but the workaround is a bit more involved than it's worth.

the devs creating a pre item fx send that compensates for any latency of other effects on the item, track, parent track(s) and maybe even the master for one users use case is also more involved than it's worth.

Basically you are just wanting to be able to A/B/C mastering chains here right?

hmm.. maybe just use snapshots?

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by James HE

the devs creating a pre item fx send that compensates for any latency of other effects on the item, track, parent track(s) and maybe even the master for one users use case is also more involved than it's worth.

Basically you are just wanting to be able to A/B/C mastering chains here right?

hmm.. maybe just use snapshots?

The goal is to have an additional stereo digital send to my monitor controller that doesn't have have item FX and A/B that in real-time with the main output of REAPER.

The best way I've found to do that so far is a script that duplicates all the item before I insert FX on the items to a hidden track that is assigned to that additional stereo digital send/output so when I'm playing back what I am working on, I can seamlessly A/B the two.

I'm guessing this will be as good as it gets.

[mlprod]

This would be handy for sure. Lots of mastering engineers that use Reaper would like it. In the send dialogue one extra option:

Pre Item
Pre FX
Post FX Pre fader
Post fader

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by mlprod

This would be handy for sure. Lots of mastering engineers that use Reaper would like it. In the send dialogue one extra option:

Pre Item
Pre FX
Post FX Pre fader
Post fader

Yes, it's admittedly a small/niche market but a SUPER valuable one to mastering engineers.

With the mastering focused requests in general (not just this one) I feel like I'm talking into a void because people that don't fully understand the needs just come back with unpractical workarounds, or think everything can be solved with a script.

It's much different than recording and mixing.

I've spent a lot of time and donation money having custom scripts made and I believe I have taken it about as far as I can, and way beyond what the average potential professional mastering engineer would but yet REAPER still falls a bit short in some areas.

REAPER is painfully close to being the ultimate all in one mastering DAW but it needs to take a few native steps to really nail it and be something that the more or less average person is going to want to jump in to. Right now it's kind of a DIY mentality that not everyone has the patience for.

[mlprod]

I have my hopes that things will happen in v6.

Also I obviously meant Pre item FX above, not pre item heh.