Old 01-25-2013, 01:54 PM   #1
jake the snake
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Default Cd master printing.. file type? track text?

I have a mastered Cd that I need to send to be duplicated/printed/jewel cased etc.
The company I am using will accept any file type, it is up to me to give them a hard copy exactly how I want it... they do not change the master in any way, they are copying the exact files I give them.

1) How do you add song titles to Cd tracks that can be read in compatible cd players?

2) What file types should be used when sending my final master Cd to the printing company?
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:44 PM   #2
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Sounds like you want to make a DDP. You can do it in REAPER using some special markers and formatting and the DDP file type in the render settings.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:08 PM   #3
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What is a DDP/what does DDP stand for?
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:13 PM   #4
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A ddp is a type of disk image that can be used to create a CD master.

Here's a video tutorial that explains all the details of making one in reaper.

http://youtu.be/wNtnl09y5bY
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:31 PM   #5
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DDP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_Description_Protocol

Though I would go with Cue/Bin as it is not a proprietary format.

Also I would second guess the company that does not have a preference or guide of what files they prefer or consider the best. This sound too much like "we have no idea just give us what every so we can bill ya".
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:45 PM   #6
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I would think cue/bin would be the way to go too.

But can you burn the song titles/album name/artist name into a cue/bin?

I used this company a few years back and they did good by me. I had recorded a Cd with a band in a studio and sent away whatever it was the studio gave us. This was before my long dark walk down the homestudio hell hole
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Old 01-26-2013, 02:56 AM   #7
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Cue/bin (or PC printed CDs as well) are not accepted by some companies for some good reason. There are more chances to end up with a pile of CDs containing errors rejected and returned back to the factory. DDP is safer. Use DDP if you can. Better for the factory and better for you. Sometimes it's not very easy to convince the companies to eat up their wrong CDs unless the errors are totally evident and fully unacceptable.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:10 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jake the snake View Post
But can you burn the song titles/album name/artist name into a cue/bin?
You can't "burn" anything into a cue/bin. It is a digital format that describes how the CD should be like. You burn the CD from the cue/bin.

But in the cue sheet you can define all the info you want/need: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cue_she...adata_commands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snap View Post
Cue/bin (or PC printed CDs as well) are not accepted by some companies for some good reason.
What good reasons?

DDP like Cue/Bin does not contain checksums against errors.
Cue/Bin allows to completely author a Red Book CD or am I missing something?
What does DDP ofter that Cue/Bin does not?

To me DDP just seems unnecessarily encumbered. No public specification. Can it do CD Extra, i.e. Blue Book?

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DDP is safer.
Why is is safer?
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:25 AM   #9
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Checksum. Or am I missing something?
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Old 01-26-2013, 06:06 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snap View Post
Checksum. Or am I missing something?
DDP does not contain a checksum. People add it manually.
Though I can't point you to the specification ... because it is not available.

EDIT:
"Although not part of the DDP format cue2ddp will also add MD5 and CRC32
checksum files, which can be used to verify data integrity, e.g. after
the DDP fileset has been transferred to a different location or media." - http://ddp.andreasruge.de/cue2ddp.html

So again why is DDP safer?

Last edited by mad demon; 01-26-2013 at 06:11 AM.
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Old 01-26-2013, 09:21 AM   #11
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Reaper does generate a checksum when rendering to DDP.

Here's the changelog.
v4.25 - July 12 2012
+ DDP support: improvements (MD5, CD-TEXT support, UTF-8/ascii conversion)

DDP (Disc Description Protocol) is widely accepted now by most pressing plants as the industry standard.

Here's a simple description by Mastering Engineer Bob Katz
Scroll down to the DDP section.
http://www.digido.com/audio-faq.html

Last edited by WyattRice; 01-26-2013 at 12:39 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:01 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattRice View Post
Reaper does generate a checksum when rendering to DDP.

Here's the changelog.
v4.25 - July 12 2012
+ DDP support: improvements (MD5, CD-TEXT support, UTF-8/ascii conversion)
That's great. They should add that for CUE/BIN as well. And maybe stem export, etc.

Though that does not change the fact that the DDP format itself does not use checksums (neither does CUE/BIN) so if the plant will not run the checksums (or there software does not) it doesn't help.

Anyway that's why we usually zip the stuff up. That's the same as having a checksum (zip has an internal checksum, so it won't unpack damaged data). This is even better than attaching a checksum to the files because the zip program will check the checksum no matter what. With an attached checksum it is up to the software or human to check the checksum because it is not part of the DDP standard.

Also DDP is very restricted to audio CDs only and we do a lot of CD-Extra (Enhanced CDs, which have a data track in addition to the audio track) which DDP can't do ... or can it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattRice View Post
DDP (Disc Description Protocol) is widely excepted now by most pressing plants as the industry standard.
Industrial standard ... like ProTools session files? ... that must not mean it is the best for the job.

However the problem is, e.g. if I have a damaged DDP file or some software screws the DDP file creation up there is no way for me to even see nor fix that. Even if I had the computer knowledge to do so because the DDP specification is not release to the general public.
With a cue sheet I can fix it myself because just like the REAPER project files it is human readable. Plus its definition can be found in Appendix A of ftp://209.113.146.144/public_ftp/cdr.pdf

But let's not to confuse or scare jake the snake anymore/any more ... either way is fine. DDP or CUE/BIN. Just make sure to zip it up so an error detection mechanism, that does not depend on someone or some software actually running the checksums, is in place.
I would recommend asking the plant which of DDP or CUE/BIN they prefer and then go with that. Because sending them a DDP when they are not familiar with it can be as fatal as sending a CUE/BIN they have never heard of.
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:21 AM   #13
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The ddp tool talked about in the video posted far above has a verification command you can use.

Of course healthy paranoia can go too far, since all software can be buggy.

ZIP is a good way to transmit data anyway. No FTP server or client has managed to screw that up in over 15 years for me .
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mad demon View Post
Industrial standard ... like ProTools session files? ... that must not mean it is the best for the job.
I don't want to get in argument here, I'm just saying DDP is accepted by most Mastering Engineers, and pressing plants nowdays.

If it wasn't, Top Mastering Engineers wouldn't be using it.

If you want to check the image file in Reaper, you can import the image.DAT file, and play it.

Last edited by WyattRice; 01-26-2013 at 12:38 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mad demon View Post
Though that does not change the fact that the DDP format itself does not use checksums (neither does CUE/BIN) so if the plant will not run the checksums (or there software does not) it doesn't help.
Absolutely correct. Like all CD audio image formats I've seen, they were invented without network transmission in mind, that may explain, why neither of them has checksums built-in. But even if it had, a plant could still be dumb and not verify the checksums.

By the way, the CD Text part of a DDP always has checksums integrated. I hope plants verify them.

Quote:
Also DDP is very restricted to audio CDs only and we do a lot of CD-Extra (Enhanced CDs, which have a data track in addition to the audio track) which DDP can't do ... or can it?
It can. In fact, the very intention of the DDP specification was to completely describe all types of optical discs. So, Red Book is only a very small part of the DDP specification.

Quote:
Industrial standard ... like ProTools session files? ... that must not mean it is the best for the job.
Completely agreed. DDP has indeed been the industry standard in the professional filed as far as I can tell. But technically, if we only talk about Red Book, e.g. Pyramix images (pmi), Sequoia Images (hdp/wav), Nero Images (nra), Jam Files, or cue/wav would all do. In fact, many plants accept some of those formats.

Quote:
However the problem is, e.g. if I have a damaged DDP file or some software screws the DDP file creation up there is no way for me to even see nor fix that. Even if I had the computer knowledge to do so because the DDP specification is not release to the general public.
With a cue sheet I can fix it myself because just like the REAPER project files it is human readable. Plus its definition can be found in Appendix A of ftp://209.113.146.144/public_ftp/cdr.pdf
The open documentation and simplicity of the format is a big plus, I agree. But just for the record: the cue sheet specification is not very precise, it leaves out important information, like which encoding the file should be stored in, or how to use double quotes in CD text. Also the being able to edit the cue sheet easily only applies to the three most important CD text fields (TITLE, PERFORMER, SONGWRITER). (But I personally think that's enough.) Technically the DDP spec--which is not free, but at least does not cost money--is slightly more precise.

(By the way, I've gone the route of signing the DDP license many years ago and checking my DDP masters myself. But to tell you the truth: it has only helped my understanding of how different software uses the format, but it has not changed the quality of my masters in any way. I've used Pyramix and Sequoia and those DDP could always be sent straight to the plant. Also I usually proof-listen after I generate a DAWs native CD image, but before I convert that to DDP.)

Quote:
But let's not to confuse or scare jake the snake anymore/any more ... either way is fine. DDP or CUE/BIN. Just make sure to zip it up so an error detection mechanism, that does not depend on someone or some software actually running the checksums, is in place.
I would recommend asking the plant which of DDP or CUE/BIN they prefer and then go with that. Because sending them a DDP when they are not familiar with it can be as fatal as sending a CUE/BIN they have never heard of.
100% agreed.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anrug View Post
But even if it had, a plant could still be dumb and not verify the checksums.
Plants are even dumb enough to make a glass master of a CD that has the CD image on it instead of making a glass master from the CD image.

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Originally Posted by anrug View Post
It can. In fact, the very intention of the DDP specification was to completely describe all types of optical discs. So, Red Book is only a very small part of the DDP specification.
Cool I didn't know that. What applications support it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anrug View Post
But just for the record: the cue sheet specification is not very precise, it leaves out important information, like which encoding the file should be stored in, or how to use double quotes in CD text.
I agree on the double quotes in CD text part. I'm still don't sure how this is done. We just simply use "First "Nick" Last" and had no problems so far.

Regarding the file encoding: Cuesheet ASCII and Audio Data WAVE or Binary. I don't see any problem there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anrug View Post
Also the being able to edit the cue sheet easily only applies to the three most important CD text fields (TITLE, PERFORMER, SONGWRITER). (But I personally think that's enough.)
I also find it easy to add gaps move indexes etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anrug View Post
Technically the DDP spec--which is not free, but at least does not cost money--is slightly more precise.
Wait it does not cost money? Why aren't they then releasing it to the general public? What are they afraid of. I'm not going to sign another NDA in my life though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anrug View Post
(By the way, I've gone the route of signing the DDP license many years ago and checking my DDP masters myself. But to tell you the truth: it has only helped my understanding of how different software uses the format, but it has not changed the quality of my masters in any way.
I only made that remark about software screwing things up because we had that happen to us before. It took us a whole day ... we missed our deadline because of that ... because Waveburner would randomly move track starts around. The DDP file it generated was always OK though. Just not the way we wanted it. So verification tools as mentioned above are not going to help in such cases.

Anyway I think I spear enough of my DDP hate and leave it at that. What every the plant prefers is best. If they don't have a preference print the 1s and 0s on paper and send it to them that will make them change their "whatever format" attitude.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:22 AM   #17
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reading up on this. is there a tutorial on how to make DDP from a session file from Reaper?

And is it still 'that' better for just small quantity (I'm talking less than 50) from Cue/Bin?


An good tutorials on both Cue/Bin and DDP?
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:19 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendetta V View Post
reading up on this. is there a tutorial on how to make DDP from a session file from Reaper?

And is it still 'that' better for just small quantity (I'm talking less than 50) from Cue/Bin?


An good tutorials on both Cue/Bin and DDP?

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Old 01-29-2013, 02:33 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendetta V View Post
And is it still 'that' better for just small quantity (I'm talking less than 50) from Cue/Bin?
You want to make 50 CDs? Well, as far as I know, pressing Red Book discs is way too expensive in this case, because glass mastering (i.e. making a stamper) is not cheap. Fewer than 500-1000 CDs are usually done with so called disc duplicators. Look for "Rimage" or "Primera Technology" if you want to see how they look like. These systems simple burn CDs as you would at home (Orange Book, disc-at-once), but usually have more options for label printing.

As input media for duplication (as opposed to replication) simple CD-R is used almost exclusively I believe. But really, ask the company you're dealing with, which format they prefer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendetta V View Post
An good tutorials on both Cue/Bin and DDP?
What exactly do you want to know?

Side note: I'd always use cue/wav instead of cue/bin, because it's easier to listen to the audio, almost every program can read wave files.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mad demon
Cool I didn't know that. What applications support it?
As far as I can tell DDP supports DVD (any format), Red Book (CD Audio), Yellow Book (Data CD, often called CD-ROM), Green Book (CD-i), and multi-session CDs (e.g. Orange Book). I do not find Blue Book explicitly mentioned in the specs, but as far as I know, it's only a specific usage of the multi-session format. The input format for glass mastering is usually DDP, so every disc which can be pressed, can be represented as DDP as far as I know.

When a replicator get's a CD-R or a Nero Image (or a cue/bin image, if that's accepted), they'll first convert that to DDP. But that shouldn't bother you, as the conversion is transparent. In the end, it's like you say: what the plant accepts is what you should deliver. Simple.

BTW, I think the reason that Reaper outputs cue sheets is that a lot of burning programs can read it. One of them, which is even open source, comes bundled with reaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mad demon
I agree on the double quotes in CD text part. I'm still don't sure how this is done. We just simply use "First "Nick" Last" and had no problems so far.
Good to hear. I've made cue2ddp to deal with quotes exactly as you expect, but I think I've seen other parsers doing it differently - maybe I'm wrong, it's been a while I did research on this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mad demon
Regarding the file encoding: Cuesheet ASCII and Audio Data WAVE or Binary. I don't see any problem there.
Yepp, if you stick to ASCII you're safe. (If you need other characters it get's a bit tricky. Reaper would write an UTF-8 encoded cue sheet in that case, which I wouldn't rely on being read correctly.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mad demon
I also find it easy to add gaps move indexes etc. (in cue sheets)
Absolute. That part (P and Q subcode) is complete, I just wanted to mention, that not all CD Text fields can be set with a cue sheet. Not a big deal though, as I'd stay with title an performer anyway. (But if for whatever reason you need full control, you'd have to use the CDTEXFILE command and provide a binary CD text file, which you could not write in a text editor--unfortunately).
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:35 AM   #20
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Thanks for the replies guys

I think I'm gonna be having duplication not replication (my fault not pointing that out in the beginning). But I was still wondering if I'm keeping the project on my HDD should I keep it in cue/bin, DDP or just iso?

by the way, I just use diamond tools to 'mount' the Cue/Bin file and play on iTunes as an audio CD. works for me
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:36 AM   #21
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But I was still wondering if I'm keeping the project on my HDD should I keep it in cue/bin, DDP or just iso?
ISO will probably not be an option, ISO is an image format for CD-ROM, not CD-Audio (cue/bin and DDP can be both).

I'd go with a cue sheet plus Wave file, not bin file, for archiving. But if your project originally has more than 16 bits--which nowadays is very likely, as converters usually have around 22 bits--I'd make sure to also archive a 24 bit Wave file.

Quote:
by the way, I just use diamond tools to 'mount' the Cue/Bin file and play on iTunes as an audio CD. works for me
Sure, possible. But for proof listening a CD image, I'd make sure you use a signal path, where each audio bit from the image file actually goes unchanged through to the converter. This would usually mean ASIO on Windows, and a well engineered DAW. (You can check this by rerecording the digital output of your soundcard and doing a standard null-test.) I'm not sure iTunes can offer that. But for checking marker positions it'll do of course.
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