Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER Q&A, Tips, Tricks and Howto

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-27-2013, 10:55 AM   #1
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default Classical Helper Shortcuts V1

Hi All,

After a few rants about the Reaper crossfade system, I've come up with my very own custom actions which allow me to get 95% of my classical work done with very little effort. It's still not quite as comforting and quick as the Sequoia crossfade editor but it comes mighty close.

First import my custom actions (attached). I have "Color It!", "Whole Project View" and the piece de resistance, "Classical Crossfade".

Color it! (C) -- Default reaper item colors are no good for precise editing so I created this action to color alternate items nice pastel colors. As a create new splits etc., I simply press 'C' again to re-color as necessary. Note that I choose to NOT color waveforms themselves but just the backgrounds with a tint strength of 2 (all set under preferences).

Whole Project View (`) -- An easy way to see the whole project in one window (FYI, if the last track contains no items it will not be part of the whole view). Making a time selection by dragging with the mouse over the ruler then pressing the shortcut will zoom into that selection.

For the final custom action you need SWS extensions installed.

Classical Crossfade (X) -- After using "Color It!", disable auto-crossfades (permanently for classical work!). Drag the right item over the left and line up the waveforms. Move the left edge of the right item until it is exactly where you want the crossfade to end. Then hit X and voila...a short classical crossfade is created. The length is set by the SWS extensions parameters -- Seconds (edit cursor). I have it set at 0.015 which creates a 30ms crossfade.

Combine these with the new Source-Destination actions created by Pelleke and we suddenly have a viable and stable environment for doing mission-critical classical recording, editing and mastering. I would still like a dedicated graphical crossfade editor for fine-tuning as using the content knob in Reaper's editor is a terribly clumsy way to work. I just wish I could drag the right item without increasing the set length of the crossfade. This needs to be a two-lane display so that I can easily line up waveforms.

Anyhow, enjoy and hope they are helpful to all you classical editors out there.
Attached Files
File Type: reaperkeymap Classical helpers.ReaperKeyMap (575 Bytes, 515 views)

Last edited by bachstudies; 04-27-2013 at 07:37 PM.
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 08:29 AM   #2
pelleke
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 19
Default

Just for reference purposes: a link to my new Source/Destination custom actions.

I've never worked with region colours, I'm definitely going to give that a try.

As to the crossfader, my actions do something similar during the edit. Apart from being out of the scope of the source/destination setup, is there any difference in how your actions make the crossfade? (They'd still be useful if they don't, in case you want to quickly fix something up in a project already edited, or to redo a crossfade made earlier in the process where you lost the source selection.)
pelleke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2013, 09:01 AM   #3
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

I think they are probably very similar but I seem to work more with students in the regular mode rather than source/destination. The issue I still have with Reaper is the terrible crossfade editor. To my mind, the "editor" doesn't make it easier at all. I need a zoomed-in visual so I can precisely line up edits. Trying to fix rough source/destination edits is impossible.

I have done some more work on my color and crossfade actions including shortcuts to make all vertical items in tracks grouped (for multi-mic classical setups) and also coloring so that it is easy to see where the takes come from after compiling an edit.

I'll post soon.
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2015, 10:41 AM   #4
lucasharris
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 5
Default

I have used the wonderful Pyramix fade editor and I'm finding that the Reaper editor leaves a lot to be desired.

Maybe we can get together to request a Sadie/Pyramix/Sequoia type crossfade editor in a future version of Reaper.

Thank you very much for the shortcuts - great work.

- Lucas
lucasharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2015, 10:42 AM   #5
lucasharris
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 5
Default

Pelleke & Bachstudies,

Thank you so much for your work on this.

I have used the wonderful Pyramix fade editor and I'm finding that the Reaper editor leaves a lot to be desired. I am evaluating it now and would have ditched it had I not found your shortcuts / video.

Maybe we can get together to request a Sadie/Pyramix/Sequoia type crossfade editor in a future version of Reaper.

- Lucas
lucasharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2015, 11:23 AM   #6
beingmf
Human being with feelings
 
beingmf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucasharris View Post
I have used the wonderful Pyramix fade editor and I'm finding that the Reaper editor leaves a lot to be desired. I am evaluating it now and would have ditched it had I not found your shortcuts / video.
Where exactly is the difference? I've never worked with Sadie/Pyramix/Sequoia.
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
beingmf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2015, 05:47 PM   #7
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucasharris View Post
I have used the wonderful Pyramix fade editor and I'm finding that the Reaper editor leaves a lot to be desired.

Maybe we can get together to request a Sadie/Pyramix/Sequoia type crossfade editor in a future version of Reaper.

Thank you very much for the shortcuts - great work.

- Lucas
Thanks. I feel like there's nothing happening along those lines for Reaper. I hope I'm wrong but I simply can't use Reaper for serious classical work except as a rock-solid recording interface—It's never let me down. Until the arrival of a crossfade editor I'd be adding so much extra hassle by trying to be "loyal" to Reaper.

I've been in contact with a developer at Harrison who produce Mixbus (and help develop the open-source DAW, Ardour, which it runs on top of). They are very interested in developing proper source-destination options and crossfade editor as they see it as a real draw for engineers unwilling to spend thousands of dollars for that option. For now, I've just upgraded to Pyramix V10. I was on Sequoia but for me the development wasn't moving nearly as quickly as I'd like in order to justify contributing to the yearly maintenance contract or for the next version number. The list of new features was staggeringly underwhelming.
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2016, 11:20 PM   #8
lucasharris
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 5
Default

Very interesting. Thanks for this - I'll try to research Mixbus / Ardour which I haven't heard of.

Meanwhile, true confessions: I'm not an engineer, but rather a musician who has edited a few of his own projects. Several years ago I bought a license for Pyramix 5 and upgraded to 6, then stopped doing this for a few years. Now I'd like to start again, but don't want to pay for the upgrade. So I've spent the last couple of days getting Pyramix 6 to work on an old Windows Vista computer . . . all just for that wonderful fade editor. But I would still love to switch to a different software which has such an editor and which works on the Windows 10 laptop I tour with.

Thank you again for your terrific posts.

- Lucas

Toronto, Canada
lucasharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2016, 03:02 AM   #9
planetnine
Human being with feelings
 
planetnine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,924
Default

Long time since I saw Pyramix. Could someone post some video showing its crossfade editor in action?

I take it you guys know about the REAPER crossfade editor? What is it missing?



>
__________________
Nathan, Lincoln, UK. | Item Marker Tool. (happily retired) | Source Time Position Tool. | CD Track Marker Tool. | Timer Recording Tool. | dB marks on MCP faders FR.
planetnine is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 12:41 PM   #10
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
Long time since I saw Pyramix. Could someone post some video showing its crossfade editor in action?

I take it you guys know about the REAPER crossfade editor? What is it missing?



>
I can definitely tell you what is missing from Reaper's crossfade tools.

A visual two-track representation of the fade with the ability to drag the right waveform or crossfade without affecting edits before or after. The waveforms do not stop at the fade but continue in either direction greyed-out so you can precisely line up waves then move crossfade to just before a "hit", for example.

You are right—a video showing either Pyramix or Sequoia in action would be the best as words simply do not accurately portray the time-saving with this and source-destination editing. I found these:

https://youtu.be/wQXwnvITQCQ?t=3m8s

https://youtu.be/3qv7TZovOs0?t=2m46s

One's in French but you will get the idea...I've linked starting at the relevant point but it is instructive to watch the whole thing if you have time! Attached is a still image of the Sequoia editor too...

Hopefully now it is clear why the Reaper crossfade "editor" is so lacking for serious classical work.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sequoia crossfade editor.jpg (64.4 KB, 512 views)
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 03:03 PM   #11
nofish
Human being with feelings
 
nofish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
I can definitely tell you what is missing from Reaper's crossfade tools.

A visual two-track representation of the fade with the ability to drag the right waveform or crossfade without affecting edits before or after. The waveforms do not stop at the fade but continue in either direction greyed-out so you can precisely line up waves then move crossfade to just before a "hit", for example.
Maybe I'm missing something (not familiar with Sequoia) but...



Wouldn't that come close to what you're asking ?

(that's with "Options -> Show overlapping media items in lanes" turned on, drag crossfade is done holding 'Shift')
nofish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 03:44 PM   #12
vdubreeze
Human being with feelings
 
vdubreeze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,613
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
I can definitely tell you what is missing from Reaper's crossfade tools.

A visual two-track representation of the fade with the ability to drag the right waveform or crossfade without affecting edits before or after.
The hyphen makes me think you're referring to a single stereo track, as we old farts used to call mixing "to two-track". Or do you mean two tracks?
vdubreeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 05:37 PM   #13
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Maybe I'm missing something (not familiar with Sequoia) but...



Wouldn't that come close to what you're asking ?

(that's with "Options -> Show overlapping media items in lanes" turned on, drag crossfade is done holding 'Shift')
Great suggestion but it is a bit of a hassle for 100+ edits to have to move the right waveform to a second track each time. Potential errors come into play if you don't remember to restrict sideways movement as you pull down. The problem remains that you can't see any waveform beyond where the crossfade begins or ends. If I used your method in Reaper, I had to take the additional step of lengthening each waveform to line them up and then return them to one track, relocate the join and then make a "classical" crossfade using one of my shortcuts.

The point is...I respect that you can make an edit in any DAW these days but for us classical engineers, the hours editing add up and there's just nothing as precise and quick as Sequoia and Pyramix. And this doesn't even cover when you have to replace 8 measures with another take that might be slightly longer or shorter. I can do it in 4 clicks in Pyramix/Sequoia using source-destination (i.e. a 4-point cut) but in Reaper it takes forever to get it to a point that I'm happy. Crossfade editor is used in tandem with source-destination to amazing effect in these more expensive options.

I stopped using Sequoia thinking I could get by with Reaper but it just isn't possible, even with excellent suggestions from folks like you. I suppose there's a reason why the major orchestras, opera houses etc use one of these two programs but I wish it was different.
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2016, 05:10 AM   #14
nofish
Human being with feelings
 
nofish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
Great suggestion but it is a bit of a hassle for 100+ edits to have to move the right waveform to a second track each time. Potential errors come into play if you don't remember to restrict sideways movement as you pull down.
Just to clarify, above screencap is not two tracks, but one track with two lanes. Reaper puts items in a different lane automatically if they overlap if above mentioned option is enabled. So no manual up / down movement to a second track necessary.



(acknowledged the points you mention, just trying to show what's maybe useable currently already for your workflow).
nofish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2016, 06:14 PM   #15
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Just to clarify, above screencap is not two tracks, but one track with two lanes. Reaper puts items in a different lane automatically if they overlap if above mentioned option is enabled. So no manual up / down movement to a second track necessary.



(acknowledged the points you mention, just trying to show what's maybe useable currently already for your workflow).
Wow, I appreciate the clarification. It does change things a little bit as you say...I'll experiment and see if it improves my workflow. The nice thing about Pyramix/Sequoia, as I say, is that the crossfade editor centers on the particular crossfade but shows the grayed-out waveforms beyond the edges of the crossfade. It makes editing existing crossfades a piece of cake. In Reaper, I'd still have to drag out the edges of each waveform, re-align and then re-do my 30ms crossfade.

Do you know if there's a way to limit the size of the crossfade as objects overlap? If so, that would be amazing. I seem to remember I've asked before. It is the default behavior in Sequoia...
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2016, 12:30 AM   #16
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

Attached is a screenshot of the crossfade editor from Nuendo. Less visually appealing than some but still would get the job done nicely, I bet. The greyed out audio either side of the crossfade is a great feature it shares with Sequoia and Pyramix. Certainly helps orient the fade and makes it easier to align waveforms without any guess work.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Nuendo crossfade editor.jpg (56.5 KB, 556 views)
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2016, 04:20 AM   #17
studer58
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 281
Default

It may help to post a vote for a 4 point Source Destination Editing Feature Request here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=170775

I'm not quite sure how the voting thing works though...is it through sheer weight of vote numbers, or how long the issue has remained unresolved for ?
studer58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2016, 08:25 AM   #18
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
Default

The issue system is deprecated.

Explain your request in the first post of a thread you open in the feature request forum section. Keep that updated and let the discussion roll in that thread.

I guess you saw the huge thing I posted a long time ago. Would you guys prefer a vertical layout (one arrangement view above a second arrangement view) or a horizontal (views next to each other) ?

Oh and , the crossfade editor of Reaper is good for a lot of things. Is it good enough though ? If not, what details work less well for your workflows ? Be specific.

A shot of a simple 1-track cut, but it can do grouped item cuts as well.

__________________
Using Latch Preview (Video) - Faderport 16 setup for CSI 1.1 , CSI 3.10
Website
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2016, 11:16 AM   #19
planetnine
Human being with feelings
 
planetnine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
Wow, I appreciate the clarification. It does change things a little bit as you say...I'll experiment and see if it improves my workflow. The nice thing about Pyramix/Sequoia, as I say, is that the crossfade editor centers on the particular crossfade but shows the grayed-out waveforms beyond the edges of the crossfade. It makes editing existing crossfades a piece of cake. In Reaper, I'd still have to drag out the edges of each waveform, re-align and then re-do my 30ms crossfade.

Do you know if there's a way to limit the size of the crossfade as objects overlap? If so, that would be amazing. I seem to remember I've asked before. It is the default behavior in Sequoia...

The limiting is contrained by the fade handle and the trim of the item edge. Is that what you meant? You can always split and delete the overhang rather than "trim" as such, I suppose.

If you can definitively tie down your desired workflow (prob take pictures or or videos) someone might be able to write you a script to ease the REAPER environment towards it, maybe reduce the mousing and keypresses.

Also, if you assign the action Options: Show overlapping media items in lanes to a shortcut key, you'll be able to flick between overlapping and separate-lane crossfades instantly.



>
__________________
Nathan, Lincoln, UK. | Item Marker Tool. (happily retired) | Source Time Position Tool. | CD Track Marker Tool. | Timer Recording Tool. | dB marks on MCP faders FR.
planetnine is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2016, 11:52 AM   #20
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
The limiting is contrained by the fade handle and the trim of the item edge. Is that what you meant? You can always split and delete the overhang rather than "trim" as such, I suppose.

If you can definitively tie down your desired workflow (prob take pictures or or videos) someone might be able to write you a script to ease the REAPER environment towards it, maybe reduce the mousing and keypresses.

Also, if you assign the action Options: Show overlapping media items in lanes to a shortcut key, you'll be able to flick between overlapping and separate-lane crossfades instantly.



>
Just to clarify...

I talking about if I have two items on a track and I move the right item over the left one. In Sequoia, as the overlap begins, the crossfade stays at a set amount (say 30ms). So as you continue to drag the right item over the left, basically the left item is trimming automatically. In Reaper, as you continue dragging, the crossfade just gets bigger and bigger. Yes, you can constrain once the overlap happens but then I'd need to dial in the crossfade amounts in the editor and move the fade etc.

If this was combined with an option for greyed out waveforms beyond the item fades to appear as you drag items or crossfades in that two-lane mode, I suspect my whole Sequoia crossfade editor idea could be abandoned. I'd be making classical edits very quickly! If I can put my limited photoshopping skills to use, I'll try to do a mock-up but I hope you get the idea in case I fail...

C
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2016, 05:11 PM   #21
metal_priest
Human being with feelings
 
metal_priest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Padova
Posts: 1,626
Default

I was following this thread too because I was trying to replicate the Sadie crossfade editor in Reaper since the first time I see it on Sadie (5 years ago).

I think it's a need for people who works with classical music because of the very difficult crossfades you have to do sometimes...think about a crossfade for an orchestra grouped tracks and all the issue you can have with it: nothing to compare with editing some rock/pop/EDM music.

I think that the best description for a good crossfade editor like Sadie, Sequoia or Pyramid came from a producer of an italian major for classical music i work with a couple of times:
"you need to work "inside" the crossfade and see exactly what is going on into it.
Protools, Logic, Cubase, Reaper and all the "pop oriented" music production usually work "outside" the crossfades."

That's what bachstudies means when he says he wants that "greyed out waveforms beyond the items", for example.

In Reaper you can almost do that with these actions...but i can't figured out how to speed and clear the process:

- disable the auto crossfade
- turn on the "Options: Show overlapping media items in lanes", align the items as you need

then two options:
- make a time selection for the crossfades
- select both the items
- call the action: crossfade item within time selection
or:
- create manually the fade in and the fade out

- assign a mouse modifier to change the curve of the fades with your mouse (it should be the default clic and drag for crossfades)
- open the crossfade editor for the audition part
- if you need to trim the items indipendently just trim them
- if you need to move the crossfade and trim the items toggle the auto crossfade on again
- use the default "shift+drag the mouse" to move the fade and trim the content if you need it

it's a mess, unusable for the everyday works...and actually the Options: Show overlapping media items in lanes it's a mess too because if you have more than 2 crossfades it creates as many lanes as the number of items...on the last work i made (with Sadie) i finished the sonata with 124 cuts (in and outs)...can you imagine what does it means in reaper?
metal_priest is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2016, 12:41 PM   #22
planetnine
Human being with feelings
 
planetnine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
Just to clarify...

I talking about if I have two items on a track and I move the right item over the left one. In Sequoia, as the overlap begins, the crossfade stays at a set amount (say 30ms). So as you continue to drag the right item over the left, basically the left item is trimming automatically. In Reaper, as you continue dragging, the crossfade just gets bigger and bigger. Yes, you can constrain once the overlap happens but then I'd need to dial in the crossfade amounts in the editor and move the fade etc.

If this was combined with an option for greyed out waveforms beyond the item fades to appear as you drag items or crossfades in that two-lane mode, I suspect my whole Sequoia crossfade editor idea could be abandoned. I'd be making classical edits very quickly! If I can put my limited photoshopping skills to use, I'll try to do a mock-up but I hope you get the idea in case I fail...

C

I'll have to think about this, it might be possible with a script action, but it sounds quite involved.

When the RHS item is dragged over the LHS item, does the crossfade stay anchored in (eg) the last 30ms of the LHS item? -Scratch that, the crossfade stays in the last 30ms of the RHS item and the LHS item is trimmed to the RHS 30ms depth, yes?

Would the LHS item be expected to "un-trim" if the RHS item is moved to the right again? (at least as far as the end of the item?).

This might be possible with a tracking script. You might have to take a good low-level look at what exctly you want to happen and not happen.



>
__________________
Nathan, Lincoln, UK. | Item Marker Tool. (happily retired) | Source Time Position Tool. | CD Track Marker Tool. | Timer Recording Tool. | dB marks on MCP faders FR.
planetnine is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2016, 05:56 PM   #23
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
I'll have to think about this, it might be possible with a script action, but it sounds quite involved.

When the RHS item is dragged over the LHS item, does the crossfade stay anchored in (eg) the last 30ms of the LHS item? -Scratch that, the crossfade stays in the last 30ms of the RHS item and the LHS item is trimmed to the RHS 30ms depth, yes?

Would the LHS item be expected to "un-trim" if the RHS item is moved to the right again? (at least as far as the end of the item?).

This might be possible with a tracking script. You might have to take a good low-level look at what exctly you want to happen and not happen.



>
Exactly! The crossfade (e.g. 30ms) is fixed to the edge of the RHS item and as it is dragged over the LHS item, the LHS item is automatically trimmed.

And yes...the LHS item would be expected to "un-trim" to its length before the RHS item was dragged over it. I double-checked this behavior by loading up my copy of Samplitude X.

So I can imagine the following workflow:

Using source-destination shortcuts (ideally available in a single window view similar to Sequoia) I would make some rough edits. This would require 4 special markers—source in and out / destination in and out. The graphical design could be colored flags (green and red) with flags pointing different directions to show in and out. Then, perhaps, we would not need two project views open to achieve this widely-used classical editing model. I believe the only reason we need two projects right now is because the actions share the range tool versus the 4 independent flags idea.

Then the two-lane overlapping item mode with greyed out extension of items beyond the fades would make tweaking a piece of cake. Perhaps this could be active only when the crossfade editor dialog is open? The aim here for classical engineers (if my own method is anything to go by) is to line up the LHS and RHS waveforms at the onset of the required note or chord (easy by being able to survey the waveform beyond where the original fade was made) and then move the constrained crossfade to just before it...done! I then hit "next" on the crossfade editor and move to the next fade without having to change zoom etc.

It would be good to have an option to set the default behavior of what happens when you drag an object over another. Also there would need to add an extra option to set the global crossfade length and type "on item overlap" as well as "on item split" given we are talking about a constrained crossfade model.

Last edited by bachstudies; 01-30-2016 at 06:18 PM.
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2016, 03:03 AM   #24
mjfe2
Human being with feelings
 
mjfe2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
When the RHS item is dragged over the LHS item, does the crossfade stay anchored in (eg) the last 30ms of the LHS item? -Scratch that, the crossfade stays in the last 30ms of the RHS item and the LHS item is trimmed to the RHS 30ms depth, yes?

Would the LHS item be expected to "un-trim" if the RHS item is moved to the right again? (at least as far as the end of the item?).

This might be possible with a tracking script. You might have to take a good low-level look at what exctly you want to happen and not happen.
>
I've been reading this thread with great interest. Has there been any development on this particular feature?

Pelleke's S/D extension is very nice but until we can drag items without changing the length of the crossfade I can't see how it saves time?
__________________
Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk
mjfe2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2016, 03:43 AM   #25
mjfe2
Human being with feelings
 
mjfe2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
I have done some more work on my color and crossfade actions including shortcuts to make all vertical items in tracks grouped (for multi-mic classical setups
This would be really helpful -- how do you apply it to all takes? Thanks
__________________
Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk
mjfe2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2016, 09:19 AM   #26
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfe2 View Post
This would be really helpful -- how do you apply it to all takes? Thanks
Hi,

I'd forgotten all about this! Please give me a day or so and I'll post the latest shortcuts...
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2016, 02:27 PM   #27
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfe2 View Post
This would be really helpful -- how do you apply it to all takes? Thanks
Here they are along with my custom SWS colors (attached as ZIP).

There's not too much different from V1 but here is the full list again:

Note: Requires SWS extensions. I've not yet upgraded to Reaper 5 so unsure as to whether they work beyond V4.

Color It! (C) -- Default reaper item colors are no good for precise editing so I created this action to color alternate items nice pastel colors. As a create new splits etc., I simply press 'C' again to re-color as necessary. Note that I choose to NOT color waveforms themselves but just the backgrounds with a tint strength of 2 (all set under preferences).

To use the SWS custom colors, load the attached SWS colors file into SWS color management. There's probably a quicker way to find it but I normally right click on a track and go to track color --> SWS track color --> show color management -- Load color set from file. Say hello to those nice alternating pastel colors.

Classical crossfade (X) -- After using "Color It!", disable auto-crossfades (permanently for classical work!). Drag the right item over the left and line up the waveforms. Move the left edge of the right item until it is exactly where you want the crossfade to end. Then hit X and voila...a short classical crossfade is created. The length is set by the SWS extensions parameters -- Seconds (edit cursor). I have it set at 0.015 which creates a 30ms crossfade.

Prepare takes for classical edit (Shift+C) --NEW!-- Sets all vertical items to a random color and groups them. Repeat the key combination until you reach the end of the project.

Whole Project View (`) -- Does what it says on the tin.

Also included in the file are the Pelleke shortcuts for S/D edits across multiple tabs.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Classical Helpers V2.zip (1.1 KB, 229 views)
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2016, 04:25 PM   #28
Fergler
Human being with feelings
 
Fergler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
Attached is a screenshot of the crossfade editor from Nuendo. Less visually appealing than some but still would get the job done nicely, I bet. The greyed out audio either side of the crossfade is a great feature it shares with Sequoia and Pyramix. Certainly helps orient the fade and makes it easier to align waveforms without any guess work.

It would indeed be neat if Reaper did the same for track lanes method... I have an idea how it could work.
Fergler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2016, 06:42 PM   #29
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

So I'm seeing several ideas unfold here:

1) A way to constrain the fade length to a defined length when overlapping items as in Samplitude/Sequoia, Pyramix and Mixbus.

2) A way to utilize a longer view of the waveforms using track lanes to emulate the dedicated crossfade editors of Sequoia, Pyramix etc. At th very least, this would help align waveforms.

Mixbus, to its credit, is a bit easier than Reaper to align classical fades as not only does it have the option (default, I think) to have a short fixed-length crossfade at the start and end of every item (A de-glitching feature, I suppose) but also when you overlap items, it is pretty easy to see the alignment via the default transparency.
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2016, 12:00 AM   #30
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

FYI:

I made significant progress on my S/D editing shortcuts today:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...24#post1720524

The one I'm most excited about is the single-window source-destination model.
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2016, 06:54 AM   #31
mjfe2
Human being with feelings
 
mjfe2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
Prepare takes for classical edit (Shift+C) --NEW!-- Sets all vertical items to a random color and groups them. Repeat the key combination until you reach the end of the project.
Thanks Bachstudies, very nice!

Only problem is, the files that are sent to me for editing by a certain producer often differ in a length by a few milliseconds (a frustrating by-product of the DAW he uses).

Obviously the quickest way for me to import them is one track at a time, beginning with all 200 or so takes of channel one, followed by 200 takes of channel two etc.

But this means the takes don't always align vertically. The files don't sound out of sync, but it does mean I can't group them with your shortcut. Also, ripple and re-sizing the items doesn't always work as you'd expect, even after splitting the items.

Does anyone know a shortcut to manually line them all up? I wondered if item processing->preferred position would do the trick, but the takes all overlap a bit when I do this. Any help would be appreciated, thanks!
__________________
Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk
mjfe2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2016, 12:07 AM   #32
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

I'm used to using my shortcut on say 30-odd takes so I could see the benefit of bouncing to continuous tracks and going through the slicing and grouping process but 200 takes (!) seems like it would be a longer process than it should be. What's the DAW the producer is using? Has he manually sliced and re-sized clips before sending to you?

What happens when you try an S/D edit using my V3 custom actions with "ripple edit all tracks" active? I just tested my V3 actions on several tracks with misaligned and ungrouped items and all worked as expected.

As you know, the grouping of tracks custom action isn't necessary for the S/D editing to work and more a case of giving me a colorful representation of where my edits come from.

Obviously I don't have the benefit of seeing your files so there could well be something else happening here. All I can suggest for now until I can do some more extensive testing is to double-check "ripple edit all tracks" is active and try setting some random markers and see if the F12 S/D edit function does what you expect in terms of crossfade, ripple etc.
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2016, 12:24 AM   #33
mjfe2
Human being with feelings
 
mjfe2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
I'm used to using my shortcut on say 30-odd takes so I could see the benefit of bouncing to continuous tracks and going through the slicing and grouping process but 200 takes (!) seems like it would be a longer process than it should be. What's the DAW the producer is using? Has he manually sliced and re-sized clips before sending to you?
He uses Nuendo and I think it is a known problem that some tracks continue a few milliseconds longer than others when recording is stopped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
What happens when you try an S/D edit using my V3 custom actions with "ripple edit all tracks" active? I just tested my V3 actions on several tracks with misaligned and ungrouped items and all worked as expected.
Is there a V3 of your grouping shortcut? I just tried V2, the latest in this thread. It's not just that the items are misaligned, some are slightly longer than others. Would that affect your shortcut? I should say that Pelleke's S/D editing works very nicely. I'd just like to group items so that re-sizing and changing fades isn't so tedious! Grouping also means I can use your X-fade shortcut, which is very neat.
__________________
Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk
mjfe2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2016, 12:29 AM   #34
studer58
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 281
Default

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=180538 ...I think this is V.3 ?
studer58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2016, 01:06 AM   #35
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

Yep, you got it.
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2016, 01:16 AM   #36
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfe2 View Post
He uses Nuendo and I think it is a known problem that some tracks continue a few milliseconds longer than others when recording is stopped.



Is there a V3 of your grouping shortcut? I just tried V2, the latest in this thread. It's not just that the items are misaligned, some are slightly longer than others. Would that affect your shortcut? I should say that Pelleke's S/D editing works very nicely. I'd just like to group items so that re-sizing and changing fades isn't so tedious! Grouping also means I can use your X-fade shortcut, which is very neat.
I've never used Nuendo but if I hadn't jumped on the Sequoia and Pyramix trains that would have been my next stop because of the visual crossfade editor (albeit nowhere near as good as Sequoia and Pyramix).

See the post by studer58 for link to V3!

Misaligned and ungrouped items would probably affect the grouping/coloring prep action because it relies on selecting all items under the cursor (with repeated press moving to start of next item) but not the actual S/D editing which works perfectly as far as I can tell.

And, unless there's a way I don't know about to loop an action until the end of a project, for now one has to press the shortcut for as many takes as are in the project which in your case would get tiring fast
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2016, 01:34 AM   #37
mjfe2
Human being with feelings
 
mjfe2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
And, unless there's a way I don't know about to loop an action until the end of a project, for now one has to press the shortcut for as many takes as are in the project which in your case would get tiring fast
I don't mind pressing the action a couple of hundred times! Certainly less tiring than selecting all the items and grouping manually. But unfortunately the shift+c shortcut doesn't seem to work because, as you say, the cursor moves to the beginning of the closest item, without necessarily registering that there's another item several milliseconds later!

The S/D workflow is fantastic though. Only takes a few hours to get used to. I actually quite like having two projects open as it means you can re-adjust the punch-in/out points several times before switching to the destination project, but I'll try your version too.

So it's just the fade editor we need to improve now? Am I right in thinking we want:

a) Constant crossfades when slipping audio into or pulling it out of the fade;

b) A way to view *and* listen to both sides of the fade independently, including any 'hidden' audio;

c) The ability to stretch a crossfade symmetrically so it can be made longer on either side of the join?

I'm amazed at what's been achieved so far and it feels very solid. Haven't looked at Reaper's built-in crossfade editor properly but it seems a bit clunky, unless we can add some shortcuts...
__________________
Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk
mjfe2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2016, 10:57 AM   #38
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: No longer using REAPER and no longer active in the forums.
Posts: 129
Default

OK, attached is a revised "Prepare takes for Classical edit" custom action for misaligned items (although it will work for perfectly aligned ones too!). I've given it a different keyboard shortcut (Ctrl+Shift+Alt+C) and name for now while it is tested. It works in a similar way to the original but locates the first transient before selecting every item under the cursor. This should solve your source files issue and allow you to enjoy grouping and coloring.


FYI, my single window S/D editing in V3 does allow for tweaking of in/out gates because it uses 4 regular markers to do the work. You can either drag or nudge markers or there's a shortcut to delete all markers to start over.

Anyway, please let me know if the revised custom action works for you!
Attached Files
File Type: reaperkeymap Prepare takes misaligned.ReaperKeyMap (215 Bytes, 288 views)
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 01:13 AM   #39
mjfe2
Human being with feelings
 
mjfe2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachstudies View Post
OK, attached is a revised "Prepare takes for Classical edit" custom action for misaligned items (although it will work for perfectly aligned ones too!). I've given it a different keyboard shortcut (Ctrl+Shift+Alt+C) and name for now while it is tested. It works in a similar way to the original but locates the first transient before selecting every item under the cursor. This should solve your source files issue and allow you to enjoy grouping and coloring.


FYI, my single window S/D editing in V3 does allow for tweaking of in/out gates because it uses 4 regular markers to do the work. You can either drag or nudge markers or there's a shortcut to delete all markers to start over.

Anyway, please let me know if the revised custom action works for you!
Amazing, thanks so much for setting this up. It works for every 10 or so takes, then seems to get stuck in between items and group some from one take and some from the next.

Is there a way to nudge the cursor a set number of milliseconds *into* the item? I don't think the transient search function is always sufficient to jump a whole take...
__________________
Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk
mjfe2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 02:01 AM   #40
metal_priest
Human being with feelings
 
metal_priest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Padova
Posts: 1,626
Default

thank bachstudies, i will take a look to those new actions to improve my workflow!

Quote:
So it's just the fade editor we need to improve now? Am I right in thinking we want:

a) Constant crossfades when slipping audio into or pulling it out of the fade;

b) A way to view *and* listen to both sides of the fade independently, including any 'hidden' audio;

c) The ability to stretch a crossfade symmetrically so it can be made longer on either side of the join?
Actually for the c there is that option!
You can set your fade/crossfade default lenght in the options and you can mirror or link any parameters of the crossfades in the crossfade editor window.

the the b I use a workaround that is not so quicky as a native function but it can work.
When i do editing i leave the "show overlapping items into lanes" active so i can see both the item at the same time and i have the "mute item" button visible on the items.
Then i simply align the items where i want the crossfade, and then mute the right one or the left one when i need to listen to the in fade or the out fade. Having the items overlappet give you the option to easily extend the item to show and liste to the trimmed audio.
As i said, it has a lot of defects, the first one is that you need to "adjust again" the fade after you have extended the item but it can help.

I didn't understand the a point, maybe because of my poor english...I think you can set your default fade/crossfade lenght in the options (or is an SWS?) or did you mean something else?
metal_priest is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.