Old 05-20-2013, 07:27 PM   #1
hopi
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Default Fishman Triple Play - questions plz

well as usual, I can't find the thread with the forum search feature...

and I'm considering getting one of these when they come back in stock ...must be a hot seller, eh?

So asking of those that already have one... about the installation of the pickup itself...

I see or think I see, about the bracket that holds the controller and that seems to attach to the gtr strap pin, right..

OK... so far, but what about the pickup? I'm hoping you don't need to drill into the gtr top... is that true? How EXACTLY does it attach?

For example, I am thinking of putting it on my Taylor T5, but seriously do not want to alter the gtr top's surface... you know?

thanks for your experienced thoughts.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:52 PM   #2
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It has a pickup holder that has a sticky side that sticks to the guitar. You clip the pickup into that so the basic pickup slides in and out. They're are 4 or 5 of these of different heights so you can get it as close as possible to the strings, then there is a micro adjustment on the P/U itself for final adjustments.

I think the adhesive used isn't supposed to harm the finish. I didn't have to worry about that though because in my case it was a Tele so it affixes to the chrome piece.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:20 PM   #3
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This thread?
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...hlight=fishman

Check pages 3 onward for Jason Brian Merrill's reactions and recordings. Makes me want to get one.
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:19 AM   #4
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Having both the Fishman now and the latest beta version of JamOrigin's MidiGuitar plugin and having played and compared both extensively, I'm going to take an opposing view to what I've read in the several posts concerning the Fishman.

I have not the slightest doubt whatsoever now that the best viable future for this entire MIDI guitar business lies in the software approach ... for several good reasons.

Understand, first of all, that it has been a long, hard road for JamOrigin in developing the software to accomplish this feat. Note also that the road has not come to its proper end yet, but the latest beta shows very clearly that this means of accomplishing good polyphonic guitar converted to MIDI will ultimately be a smashing success. Using software to achieve this is the future, whether you currently believe this or not.

With the Fishman, we are once again back to crap on our guitars, and I suggest anyone with a valuable guitar and a real lacquer surface stay miles away from any of this sticky stuff. I've heard the 'won't harm your guitar's finish' thing plenty of times before. In every case it has been an unreliable claim. I hope their insurance is up to date. Also, just wait until some good perspiration works its way down into the corky stuff, between any touching parts there. You'll see. I'm no slob around my instruments, but I'm not going to get all prissy and anal and constantly clean out the contact areas, etc.

Further, I'm unclear if replacement parts are going to be offered and how over-priced they will turn out to be. Meanwhile, be very very careful not to wreck that USB receiver dongle. Don't let it fall out on a hard floor, as it is rather flimsy, cheap plastic in my opinion, and it won't take much to crack any of it. I might say the same of the unit on the body -- cheap, rather thin plastic housing there also. I think for the money a much better design could have been made. I think this is about the flimsiest Fishman stuff I've ever seen, to be honest.

The latency is supposed to be .5 ms? I average about 10 times that, as others are reporting in, though I will say it runs smoothly in Reaper. But then, the MidiGuitar plugin is greatly improved and does rather well in its own right. Less latency for me, too. I will admit that the Fishman tracks rather well, once you have tweaked and adjusted the dickens out of it. However, properly set, I can say essentially the same of the MidiGuitar plugin now in its latest incarnation as well.

Some of this is just personal, but I really don't like junk on my guitars. I'm not interested in switching it from axe to axe, either, so I'm trapped into using it on just one -- unless I care to get almost taken to the cleaner's again and buy more. I haven't completely decided yet, but like the Roland Guitar Synth I had years ago, I expect I'll dump the Fishman setup by year's end. It's just all too precious and a bother.

Although it truly isn't 'there' yet, I know what's involved with perfecting the MidiGuitar VST plugin, and I have no doubts at all that JamOrigin will have this plugin performing spectacularly before very much longer. In the meantime, the beta really isn't half bad if you take the time to learn its subtleties. I think it did help having used the GR synth previously. I've fiddled with other means in the past also -- there's just a certain playing approach and finesse needed. Players with sloppy technique ought not bother with this MIDI guitar stuff at all I think. I mention this because I believe incredibly sloppy guitar technique is all too prevalent among players these days (even if many do try to bury it under tonnes of ridiculous distortion).

Anyway, I know there are plenty still raving over the novelty of the Fishman. I understand. And I'm not saying the result of that product is all 'bad'; what I am saying is that the hex pickup approach is ultimately a dead end, eventually headed for some vintage MIDI gadget memorabilia website and the history books.

The software solution will be the end winner, more hassle-free, cheaper and more convenient. I have to commend JamOrigin for having the guts, vision and perseverance to push on with his software approach. All we need on our part is a little more patience.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:36 AM   #5
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I must say I'm getting more and more intrigued about this Triple Play business again, despite the steep pricing in the EU area. I'm just worried if I'll be able to fit the pickup in the small space between the bridge and the pickup I have in my Parker Maxxfly.

About the Midi Guitar vst.. it's definitely a groundbreaking achievement, but there are currently two flaws which prevent it from being a final solution for me:

1. Simultaneous notes don't track well. It's more designed towards strumming than fingerpicking, but I don't want to strum a piano?

2. Chords with notes a semitone apart are a problem. The first note gets overridden.

Hopefully these problems will get fixed before I succumb to the temptation of the Triple Play.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
The latency is supposed to be .5 ms? I average about 10 times that, as others are reporting in
AFAIK the .5ms is for the entire Pitch-To-Midi piece of the chain (possibly including the wireless/USB piece) with the rest of the normal DAW latency added to that which is the nature of the beast if you will. I posted some rough measurements in the other thread FWIW.

Additionally, as mentioned the total latency is dynamic. Meaning a low E will have higher latency than a high E which plagues all Pitch-To-Midi converters I would expect. Something to remember is that if you want to compensate in Reaper by moving the MIDI item ~n samples (assume you aren't going to quantize but want the performance) you'll likely want to discover the average center pitch of the piece being played and align based off of that latency number measured via loopback. Otherwise, you'll be over or undercompensating.

^Then again, I've found I can usually get the total latency I hear/play low enough that I can compensate my playing to match and I don't have to touch anything. To be honest that's my main measurement, if I can compensate my playing comfortably, the latency numbers become irrelevant regardless of whether its TriplePlay, JamOrigin or a MIDI keyboard or standing 15 feet away from a real drummer.

I'd imagine the latency difference you feel between TriplePlay and JamOrigin is getting the note from the guitar across the wireless through the USB receiver on its way to the A/D converter. It would take time to ship it across and move through the USB receiver. It would be interesting to measure that exact number which should be possible if one has JamOrigin and TriplePlay and does some nifty testing using the same signal for both while recording two simultaneous MIDI items. There would still be the unknown of which actually converts faster (if one of them does) but would be good to know nonetheless.

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Old 05-21-2013, 07:09 PM   #7
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having used both, I would say the jamorigin plugin simply doesn't even hold a candle to the fishman...

The thing is - in order to supply pitch bend information properly you need to transmit PER string...
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:32 PM   #8
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Ok... per string... and is that an easy thing to set up or not... and once it is set up, PB works well or ????
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Old 05-22-2013, 05:43 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
having used both, I would say the jamorigin plugin simply doesn't even hold a candle to the fishman...
That's for now. Let's not forget that the Fishman has been polished and improved a lot in the last year. It's not a Beta product anymore. MIDI Guitar still is
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
The thing is - in order to supply pitch bend information properly you need to transmit PER string...
Totally agree with you. That's why the upcoming MIDI Guitar v0.8 will supposedly transmit MIDI data on a different channel for each string. Again, let's give Jam Origin a chance to bring their product out of Beta.

So basically, if you want to have a great Guitar-to-MIDI system that works very well and is available NOW: get the Triple Play. If you don't mind waiting a few months (years?) to see what other alternate system will bring (aka MIDI Guitar): then wait…or buy MIDI Guitar and have some fun NOW

What I do believe will happen eventually is that the software approach will win, after all it has in all other areas of music productions (drums/piano/strings/synth/brass VSTs, DAWs, etc, etc) hardware is only necessary when software solutions have not been invented/perfected yet. (aside from the hardware necessary to run the software, of course)

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Old 05-22-2013, 06:42 AM   #10
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well, it also needs to be able to CAPTURE the audio per string...
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
well, it also needs to be able to CAPTURE the audio per string...
Pretty much is the challenge. Let me stress to everyone I couldn't care less about the who wins piece and try to report what I find from as an agnostic view as possible so everyone can get the best information. I'd report on the others but I simply don't have them. If the all computer solution wins, I'd get that too and say yay because I had both.

So far the one I do have (TP) currently works fantastic. Pitch bend is a little iffy but that too is the nature of the beast and is also tied to the PB range on the particular VST instrument being used etc. I usually set the range to 10 or so which appears to mimic what I do with my fingers and still consider PB special use.

Lastly, there is supposed to be an updated hardware manual out soon showing how to perform most all settings without having to use the software at all as an FYI. Its so new there is quite a bit of upcoming but currently undocumented info.
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:46 AM   #12
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eventually my hardware will die - so hopefully at that point we have a solution to this
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Old 05-22-2013, 01:02 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Pretty much is the challenge. Let me stress to everyone I couldn't care less about the who wins piece and try to report what I find from as an agnostic view as possible so everyone can get the best information. I'd report on the others but I simply don't have them. If the all computer solution wins, I'd get that too and say yay because I had both.
Actually KM, it's exactly because I wanted to be as objective/thorough as possible that I brought up the “software will win” factor. For many people, the fact that the product they are planning to buy might become “outperformed/outdated” in the near, or even distant future (by an upcoming technology) it will affect their buying decision. They may be the type of people who change PC only once every 10 years because they hate having to re-learn new stuff, they may hate having to buy “one more time” something new because their "old" product isn't up to date. For whatever reasons, it matters to them "who's going to win" (VHS vs. Beta anyone?) BTW, we're seeing this type of battle right now with HD screens (3D, OLED, 2K, 4K, etc, who's going to win?)

Personally, my buying decision process depends on many factors. The "software’s going to win" argument is only one of them. Actually, I'm disappointed that so many things are becoming "software centric" (FOH Mixers, EQs, etc) I love hardware because of its immediate tactile feedback, it’s so much easier to work with. Of course software has its plus too. Like I said I try to look at all sides. Anyway, as far as Triple Play vs. MIDI Guitar is concerned, TP is definitely better ATM and I wouldn’t stop myself from buying it because it “may” eventually be surpassed by MG. I did some extensive tests on each MG betas and MIDI Guitar has still a looong way to go before it’s ready for prime time. BTW, I posted the result on KVR if anyone is interested:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewto...364167#5364167

Chuck

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Old 05-22-2013, 03:10 PM   #14
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Actually KM, it's exactly because I wanted to be as objective/thorough as possible that I brought up the “software will win” factor. For many people, the fact that the product they are planning to buy might become “outperformed/outdated” in the near, or even distant future (by an upcoming technology) it will affect their buying decision.
Both the hardware and software will become outperformed and outdated or I'd still be using my 286 with Word 97 on it. You'll buy a new unit for the hardware MIDI device if the CPU becomes to slow, you'll buy a new computer when its hardware is outdated trying to run the new and $$ improved software.

However, I'm kidding around by now and it should get much better at some point on the software side which I am all for.

Again, not a big deal here as up until now I've only observed and documented my findings on the one that I happen to have for usage purposes, no dog in the fight really. I'd be telling you everything I've found with JamOrigin if I happened to have it but a little to lazy I guess to download it and configure/test/report etc. I have a lot of gear and software but I'm not a gear or software head per se.

Peace

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:08 PM   #15
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was the year the GR-1 was introduced.
I own one. The midi implementation is rock solid.
As I mentioned here or in another thread, I also have a You Rock guitar.
Managing PB on a per string basis works on both.
The latency when triggering soft synths is the same as any keyboard.
For instance my Yamaha KX8

I have tried the jamorigin midi guitar software.

The TP is wireless, which I think is great, however it doesn't appear that either it or the jamorigin alternatives do midi any better than it was done in 1992.

My 2¢.
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Old 05-23-2013, 06:23 AM   #16
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The TP is wireless, which I think is great, however it doesn't appear that either it or the jamorigin alternatives do midi any better than it was done in 1992.
Good to hear
I'll keep my Axon then.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:49 AM   #17
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Good to hear
I'll keep my Axon then.
You'll likely get more detailed information in this forum simply because everyone there is heads down answering those very questions based on owning all of the various devices/software:

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/ind...topic=5188.275

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8534.0
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Old 05-23-2013, 12:06 PM   #18
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From the start this has been about a lot more than good tracking. The software approach JamOrigin is taking has required a successful big jump over one hurdle after the other. It's almost completely new territory. The software has no granddaddy earlier software whose footsteps it can follow. It can't 'learn' from the successes of any earlier polyphonic audio-to-MIDI software. Since the WIDI plugin is under copyright and the maker isn't offering up the source code, MidiGuitar can't draw from WIDI.

And there is no room for cheating either. As much as the GR-1 did track well and was first to introduce the more trimmed down 13-pin cable, they cheated in the design of that edition. Sounds were installed directly into the unit's main board, which gave the illusion of much faster load times to grab the sound you wanted.

That was indeed 20 years ago now and, admittedly, the tracking of that unit was rather good. Currently, however, MidiGuitar is being tweaked to achieve smoother tracking for string bends. Its Beta 0.70 was offered up very recently and I noticed immediately improvement in this area. The chording ability has remained fairly dependable too, as long as you are prepared to modify somewhat your personal playing techniques and habits.

This plugin, as it stands right now, may not be worlds better in tracking than the GR-1 from 20 years back, but the fact that it is an all-software approach must be noted and praised I think. This alone puts it miles ahead of the GR-1. The first one I ever owned was the GR-300 from about '82 or '83. This was the blue floor box with choice of either an Ibanez version of a Strat, which was my choice, or one could purchase a glued-in neck model with humbuckers, more like the usual Gibson approach to guitars. Really the only thing I need to say about it was that the tracking was horrendous no matter how much tweaking and adjusting of the hex pickup. The lowest pitched notes were typically late and often made the sudden glitchy jump of an octave or sometimes even two in pitch, and the highest notes could be early. It was indeed a mine field and no comparison at all to what we have today. Only a couple of 'sweet spots' could be relied on for accurate tracking and playing, and the rest verged on sudden death at all times. I won't bother much with how cheesy the sound generation sections were. I'll just say that it tended to sound like a cheap accordion no matter how set.

The biggest point in bring up my old GR-300 setup here is to point out that from THAT in the mid-'80s to NOW with JamOrigin's plugin efforts the improvements in tracking and reliable usage is stunning! These both are two very different instruments, so even if the difference between 1992 and 2012 isn't that remarkable an advance to your ears and personal playing, the advance from 1982 to today surely is. This advance and the fact of the software approach, I believe, negates all the naysayers who are all too awfully
quick to pan this clever achievement.

Last, I base my further optimism for the software approach largely on the improvements I've seen in the last couple of betas combined with the dev's persistence. The string bending grows a little better, the polyphonic tracking feels more solid with each new beta. If you take a moment to consider the science behind what this plugin is required to do to be a success, you may realise it truly hasn't that much further to go. It is just that those final last steps have become miniscule, meaning that there are many more of them now despite their small size.

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