VCA-slave-faders move with automated VCA-master

[TheWhistler]

Request
VCA-slaves should move with VCA-master when automated.
This is already the case in real-time, not so with automation.

Benefit
No need to coalesce (Envelope: apply all VCAs from selected tracks to grouped tracks and reset volume/pan/mute.)
to see the faders move, hence, less automation-lanes that do the exact same movement.
Would be an elegant way of moving lots of faders, keeping relative balance and still see what´s going on.
Less things to keep aware of.

Problem
The actual level of the signal in a slave-group is already altered when the VCA-master is moved by automation.
There is no visual feedback of what is going on - makes things more complicated than necessery.

Implementation
Make it an option, please.

[aspiringSynthesisingAlch]

Is this something that's not likely to change in Reaper's imminent future?

[Gass n Klang]

I requested that some weeks ago. Still VERY interested in!

[Gass n Klang]

But it seems we are the only persons wanting this... I find it so confusing not to see which volumes are changing when moving the VCA master. No idea how people can deal with it ...
In complex projects it's very difficult.

[heda]

In any case it should be an option because many will like the way it is now.
I think it would be confusing being in trim mode and seeing it moving as if it was in read mode. You don't really need to see where the fader is but where the meter is.
You can quickly check the track group with the track group indicators. Ribbons etc

[The-Zeronaut]

I dont use VCA because i find it very confusing that the DONT MOVE.
so please at least make it an option so they will move

[Dannii]

We had a huge discussion about this during the early days of REAPER 5 development and the outcome was to have VCAs act the same way hardware ones do because that is what a DAW VCA is emulating. It is a Voltage Controlled Amplifier. On hardware consoles, the VCA master fader sends a control voltage to a voltage controlled amplifier on a slave channel which then adjusts its gain accordingly. The slave channel's fader does not move.

If this is ever to change in REAPER, I'd definitely call for it to be an option and not the default setting.

[Gass n Klang]

Well the good thing in digital environment is: It hasn't to be like analogue. If I want everything nehaving and sounding analogue, I use analogue equipment. So an option for that would be great.

[TheWhistler]

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

Well the good thing in digital environment is: It hasn't to be like analogue. If I want everything nehaving and sounding analogue, I use analogue equipment. So an option for that would be great.

And therefore I would request this as an option.

You decide if analog of digital. Who cares if someone wants to have direct visiual feedback.
I can live with it as it is now, but I think this would widen the use.

[planetnine]

I would prefer some kind of 'ghost fader' -a wireframe overlay or other indication over or at the side of the fader. Have it as a user display option element in WALTER and themers can add it in how they like, but users can still switch it off in a theme.

VCAs have been (non-moving) like this for decades and mixers expect it. I use them daily on live consoles and don't miss it -as long as there is an indication on the channel that the fader belongs to a group, I can focus on in-group balance as one facet and the broader inter-group balance between VCAs as another.

Just as I don't expect channel metering to follow as I pull faders around (hint), I don't expect the drum group faders to twitch as I balance drums against backline amplification. I would welcome an option to show group gain or even resultant gain on a track, but faders actually moving would have to be another option as I'd find it distracting having to change years of automatic thought-process -dont confuse the old folks!

Faders moving doesn't mean much if there are no dB marks on the faders anyway





>

[TheWhistler]

Originally Posted by planetnine

I would prefer some kind of 'ghost fader' -a wireframe overlay or other indication over or at the side of the fader. Have it as a user display option element in WALTER and themers can add it in how they like, but users can still switch it off in a theme.

VCAs have been (non-moving) like this for decades and mixers expect it. I use them daily on live consoles and don't miss it -as long as there is an indication on the channel that the fader belongs to a group, I can focus on in-group balance as one facet and the broader inter-group balance between VCAs as another.

Just as I don't expect channel metering to follow as I pull faders around (hint), I don't expect the drum group faders to twitch as I balance drums against backline amplification. I would welcome an option to show group gain or even resultant gain on a track, but faders actually moving would have to be another option as I'd find it distracting having to change years of automatic thought-process -dont confuse the old folks!

Faders moving doesn't mean much if there are no dB marks on the faders anyway





>

We´ve been discussing this topic already.
You are right. Don´t confuse People....and some kind of overlay would be ok, too.

[Frank B]

Or we could just have volume automation work on the regular "group master volume" option.
Problem solved.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by planetnine

I would prefer some kind of 'ghost fader' -a wireframe overlay or other indication over or at the side of the fader. Have it as a user display option element in WALTER and themers can add it in how they like, but users can still switch it off in a theme.
>

While I also like this idea (as I like to always see what's going on), wouldn't it make sense to do the same thing for normal automated envelopes.

IOW - if I switch to Trim/Read right after I wrote some automation, I wouldn't see that automation being played back. So it's essentially the same problem.

My workaround for VCAs in REAPER is to simply "Apply" it after each pass.

I like to keep things simple so I don't want automation on the channel and the VCA. I just use the VCA to apply it to multiple tracks at once without erasing the channel's already written envelopes.

[Gass n Klang]

Originally Posted by Frank B

Or we could just have volume automation work on the regular "group master volume" option.
Problem solved.

yes...

[Dannii]

I should probably clarify my stand on this. My previous post in this thread sounds somewhat like I am totally against options but I'm not. I use REAPER after all!!

I do like the idea of ghost faders as an OPTION. I'm also not against the idea of having an option for the VCA slave channel faders to move as long as it is an OPTION and preferably off by default.

As others have mentioned, having VCA slave channels have their faders move with the VCA master would be distracting for me.

[TheWhistler]

Originally Posted by Frank B

Or we could just have volume automation work on the regular "group master volume" option.
Problem solved.

No, because the advantage of VCA is different to group volume master.
Think of a drumset or any other kind of complex intstrument / soundsource.

Many microphones and e. g. a lot of reverb sends.
The good thing about VCA is that it keeps the balance by reducing the input (before the actual input of the console if you like).

Group volume master does not take care of that.

And I have learned (thank´s a lot planet nine) to think of VCA as a further layer of volume control.
I never was lucky engough to work with an analog console with VCA,
so I really had to get my head around that.

[TheWhistler]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

While I also like this idea (as I like to always see what's going on), wouldn't it make sense to do the same thing for normal automated envelopes.

IOW - if I switch to Trim/Read right after I wrote some automation, I wouldn't see that automation being played back. So it's essentially the same problem.

My workaround for VCAs in REAPER is to simply "Apply" it after each pass.

I like to keep things simple so I don't want automation on the channel and the VCA. I just use the VCA to apply it to multiple tracks at once without erasing the channel's already written envelopes.

I really like this idea.
Everytime volume changes happen that are not "visible" on the actual faders, let´s have an overlay that indicates what is going on.

While just applying the automation takes away a bit of the elegance of VCA, imho.

[Gass n Klang]

so devs, can we hope for an integration of that feature in the near future?

[Coachz]

devs don't talk to us pleps

[TheWhistler]

But they read.
The fact that someone like Kenny / Planet Nine honor us with a comment in this thread may be an indicator of a bit wider interst.