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12-29-2016, 09:52 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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MISSION - Default-O-Mania
I've been starting this project, mostly in my head but I have tried out a few things, to create something of a Beginners Packet for people NEW to REAPER.
My goal is to keep it as simple as possible. Requiring little to NO changing of the application itself (although I could always create a FR) but I really want to stick to what we can customize already.
Where this ends up? I have no idea. But my goal, like with my videos, is to make REAPER as easy to use or navigate as possible.
So I'd really like to get input from you guys to see what your thoughts are. Please let's NOT turn this into a "Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools does this better so REAPER should do this too" thread. I'm not interested in what other applications do. The focus is on how REAPER can appear more user friendly for someone opening it for the first time.
We can also avoid the "REAPER isn't professional unless it does this" BS as well. If you can't stay positive in this thread, please create another in the Lounge to air your grievances.
To add to this, I'm going to outline the areas I am most focused on but please feel free to venture away from these or expand or criticize my focus on them.
Menus. For the most part, I think everything is in the menus that needs to be there. We can add a few more items but unlike the ReaMenus (which I think is/was a great project) I don't want to fill them with almost every option available. Keeping it simple but still making things easier to find.
For instance, I've been using REAPER for many years but I still have trouble finding common windows like "Media Explorer, Track Manager, Routing Matrix" from an alphabatized View Menu, that includes lesser options like Big Clock and Crossfade Editor. So I'd like to break that up into importance and move some of those options to the Edit Menu. Dynamic Split & Transient Detection windows comes to mind.
Track Layout I'd like to create a simplified Track Layout with bigger but less buttons to have to learn. I think a new user can get by without Monitoring (which could be ON by Default or set to Tape Mode) and Record Mode as separate buttons as you can Right-Click to change most of this.
Default Options I'm thinking that a new user could get up and running with Takes OFF by Default (Tape Mode) and Trim Content behind media items when editing turned ON. Basically forcing a one item at a time per track approach until you can learn more about advanced techniques.
I'm going to start with just this and see where it takes us. If anywhere at all.
Thanks
EDIT!!! - Very important. We're not discussing a different Default Theme. So please, let's not go there.
UPDATE!! - Summary so far:
Things that SHOULD be changed as a default
1. Menus. Adding separators. Moving options to better places or duplicating them to be in both places.
2. Default Track Layout. Include a simpler one as Default while leaving all the other options available.
3. Add the color Green to the Monitoring button on tracks when Monitoring is ON and Yellow in Tape Mode and attach it (or appear to) to the right side of Input Label button.
4. Have Monitoring turned ON by Default. Either in Tape Mode or not.
5. Takes OFF by Default (Tape Mode) and “Trim Content behind media items when editing” turned ON. Basically forcing a one item at a time per track approach until you can learn more about advanced techniques.
6. Default for Audio Files (Media) folders in each Project.
7. Create a Peak Files Folder in the Project folder.
8. Default for Backing up files ON, Auto Backup etc
9. Prompt to Save recording OFF
10. Prompt to Save on New Project (Create New Folder ON)
11. Included Project, Track Templates and FX Chains
12. Track Templates with FX Returns instantiated (Reverb, Delay etc)
13. Presets for included ReaPlugins
14. Default MIDI input for “Insert Virtual Instrument on Track”.
15. Add “New Track with Default MIDI input” Menu action
16. New Project starts with One new track
17. Easier way to change Automation Mode per track
18. Useful Preset Toolbars
Things that COULD go either way as default
1. All Looping Options OFF
2. Fade In/Out for New Items OFF
3. Time for Items, Envelopes, Markers set to TIME
4. Transport Playrate Slider (Hidden)
5. Mousewheel over faders OFF
6. Seek playback when clicked Top ruler (only)
7. Grid/Snapping dialog. Create one for each and/or redesign it to be a bit less confusing.
8. Toolbar that Zooms in when mousing over it. Bigger buttons.
9. One Fader Mixer on Left
10. Re-design Routing Matrix
Things that could be added as an option
Portable Installs for different uses or separate preference files that are used after a pop up after first install.
Included VST Instrument with sounds.
Last edited by Kenny Gioia; 01-03-2017 at 06:16 PM.
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12-29-2016, 10:05 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,674
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Input Monitoring seems to default to Off and that trips up a lot of people.
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
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12-29-2016, 10:49 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
Input Monitoring seems to default to Off and that trips up a lot of people.
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I don't think this is redundant. I'm looking for ideas and confirmations.
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12-29-2016, 11:14 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,674
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I deleted my post as you had already mentioned it in your original post.
Having said that, this package will be a very useful resource. Good luck.
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
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12-29-2016, 11:16 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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So,
you're looking for a beginners..
- template?
-- with any content?
- settings > import ?
I'm with you on the view-menu.
But,
we might want to go Cockos-level.
After all, experienced users can customize to their hearts content,
but newbies should be a main target for the default setup.
And, although we have amazing devs,
their strength is not streamlining GUI and making things intuitive for new users.
m2c
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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12-29-2016, 11:18 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia
Menus. For the most part, I think everything is in the menus that needs to be there. We can add a few more items but unlike the ReaMenus (which I think is/was a great project) I don't want to fill them with almost every option available. Keeping it simple but still making things easier to find.
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What about if the menus were first grouped into things like "recording", "editing", "rendering"... etc. and then had submenus for things like items and tracks?
One thing I think really helps with ReaMenus is that as well as grouping similar things together (like the default menus do) there are labels for most of those groups.
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12-29-2016, 11:34 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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Hi Kenny... before anthing else gotta say I love your videos and thanks for all your beautiful work to provide them to Reaper land. They are super valuable and so well done!
Ok, so I think this 'beginners' version is a noble, and daunting idea.
Partly I say this from the perspective of one who has gradually come to appreciate Reaper as a 'piece of clay' DAW that can be molded to a shape that suits the user's wishes. However I do [barely] recall my first years with it and how much it has taken [and still does] to make it dance as I want it. Clearly what a beginner might desire will be different.
Also a problem might be that while I have two huge hi rez monitors a new user might not... While what I have set up works well for me, a new person on a laptop display would not like my set up.
That said, I'd offer a couple thoughts:
First of all I'd imagine a portable install so that a new user can have your version ready to use without changing the normal full install. AFAIK they only would lose rewire by doing that.
1- While drop down menus are of course important and needed, I personally have put a lot of stuff into the floating toolbars. And they don't 'float' for me, they are docked at the top of the display always ready to get at.
Even the method of switching between them has been built into them all, so each of the 16 toolbars has at the far left a set of numbers from 1-16 with the number of the currently displayed toolbar missing. Makes it easy to clk and move between them.
2- Track templates, each that is set up ready to roll for midi or audio or other desires. Personally I have my set of those in the TCP blank menu instead of buried in the sub item for Track templates... this makes loading any of them very fast and easy. Of course those too could be in a floating toolbar.
If you want to get into the floating toolbar methods, I'd mention this:
The most clear and universal way to create icons for everyone [english anyway] is with double wide text icons... ok.. BUT often those ae not really enough to say what you want ... still, it is possible to have a 'text' icon as a custom made toolbar icon that is simply a png image of text [i.e. made in photoshop] and those can be almost any width you want... such as 90 or 180 px wide instead of just 30 px. [any multiple of 30 px will work]
If you want those I'd be happy to help.
OK... likely too much said..
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12-29-2016, 11:36 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 48
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studio one for example gives you the option for keybindings from other daws. for example if you are coming from cubase you just set the keybindings to cubase preset and you are fine.
the same should be for mouse modifiers if possible. it would be more easy for new users to get into reaper.
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12-29-2016, 12:13 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun
So,
you're looking for a beginners..
- template?
-- with any content?
- settings > import ?
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More of a configuration I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun
I'm with you on the view-menu.
But,
we might want to go Cockos-level.
After all, experienced users can customize to their hearts content,
but newbies should be a main target for the default setup.
And, although we have amazing devs,
their strength is not streamlining GUI and making things intuitive for new users.
m2c
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That is the rub but I figured I would worry about that at some other point.
But the goal is to keep it simple and for the change to be subtle. Not looking to re-invent the wheel. Just to make it a bit more round.
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12-29-2016, 12:15 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayJSE2
What about if the menus were first grouped into things like "recording", "editing", "rendering"... etc. and then had submenus for things like items and tracks?
One thing I think really helps with ReaMenus is that as well as grouping similar things together (like the default menus do) there are labels for most of those groups.
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That is true but it also goes off the reservation a bit with a heavy dose of sub-menus where most applications try to keep it a bit more simple and streamlined.
Thinking as a new user, what trips you up about the way it is now?
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12-29-2016, 12:23 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi
Hi Kenny... before anthing else gotta say I love your videos and thanks for all your beautiful work to provide them to Reaper land. They are super valuable and so well done!
Ok, so I think this 'beginners' version is a noble, and daunting idea.
Partly I say this from the perspective of one who has gradually come to appreciate Reaper as a 'piece of clay' DAW that can be molded to a shape that suits the user's wishes. However I do [barely] recall my first years with it and how much it has taken [and still does] to make it dance as I want it. Clearly what a beginner might desire will be different.
Also a problem might be that while I have two huge hi rez monitors a new user might not... While what I have set up works well for me, a new person on a laptop display would not like my set up.
That said, I'd offer a couple thoughts:
First of all I'd imagine a portable install so that a new user can have your version ready to use without changing the normal full install. AFAIK they only would lose rewire by doing that.
1- While drop down menus are of course important and needed, I personally have put a lot of stuff into the floating toolbars. And they don't 'float' for me, they are docked at the top of the display always ready to get at.
Even the method of switching between them has been built into them all, so each of the 16 toolbars has at the far left a set of numbers from 1-16 with the number of the currently displayed toolbar missing. Makes it easy to clk and move between them.
2- Track templates, each that is set up ready to roll for midi or audio or other desires. Personally I have my set of those in the TCP blank menu instead of buried in the sub item for Track templates... this makes loading any of them very fast and easy. Of course those too could be in a floating toolbar.
If you want to get into the floating toolbar methods, I'd mention this:
The most clear and universal way to create icons for everyone [english anyway] is with double wide text icons... ok.. BUT often those ae not really enough to say what you want ... still, it is possible to have a 'text' icon as a custom made toolbar icon that is simply a png image of text [i.e. made in photoshop] and those can be almost any width you want... such as 90 or 180 px wide instead of just 30 px. [any multiple of 30 px will work]
If you want those I'd be happy to help.
OK... likely too much said..
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All good stuff.
My only fear with messing with the toolbars is that the buttons are small (obviously) so that depending on them too much for a beginner can be confusing and seem daunting. The last thing a newbie wants is to see 78 toolbar buttons when they don't know what they do.
As far as dual monitors and different setups I agree 1000%. I'm trying to assume that a newbie is using the most standard set up.
Thanks
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12-29-2016, 12:25 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroix
studio one for example gives you the option for keybindings from other daws. for example if you are coming from cubase you just set the keybindings to cubase preset and you are fine.
the same should be for mouse modifiers if possible. it would be more easy for new users to get into reaper.
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It would but that does get hairy as it's usually not a one to one relationship.
And I have a strong belief that learning REAPER as it's own entity is mnuch better than trying to make it emulate another (lesser ) DAW.
Thanks
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12-29-2016, 12:39 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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Ok,
so how much different than ReaMenus + a few pref-tweaks?
The problem with not having native bloatware really good working templates is hard/impossible.
You could however think of making a special install video,
with links underneath.
Where you go through the whole install-process,
with:
- pref-tweaks
- Importing custom menu
- 3rd part vst/vsti
- and loading up templates.
Just an idea
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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12-29-2016, 01:09 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,562
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Good luck Kenny
Somethings I always change for new installs, off the top of my head
autobackups ON
Transport Playrate slider OFF
Prompt to save recording OFF
Mousewheel over faders OFF
Default track layout with monitor enable not hidden
"Audio Files" folder set in project settings
Timebase for items, envelopes and markers "TIME"
Store peaks in alternate path
Prompt to save on new project
Plugins - Automatically resize Up and Down
automatic fade in/out for new items OFF
crossfade when splitting ON 0:00.005
All loop source options OFF
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12-29-2016, 01:10 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun
Ok,
so how much different than ReaMenus + a few pref-tweaks?
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Completely different from ReaMenus. That project seemed to start from a "let's start over" perspective and I'm thinking more of a "how can we make the default that we have now better". Definitely more subtle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun
You could however think of making a special install video,
with links underneath.
Where you go through the whole install-process,
with:
- pref-tweaks
- Importing custom menu
- 3rd part vst/vsti
- and loading up templates.
Just an idea
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The implementation I'm worrying about a bit less at this point. I really want to focus on "What would be better for someone who just opened REAPER to not be so confused or freaked by the amount of options".
Where REAPER really excels is that once you know it, you can do anything. Hard things become easy when you understand how it all works.
But the hard part is getting new users to get to that point.
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12-29-2016, 01:14 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicSounds
Good luck Kenny
Somethings I always change for new installs, off the top of my head
autobackups ON
Transport Playrate slider OFF
Prompt to save recording OFF
Mousewheel over faders OFF
Default track layout with monitor enable not hidden
"Audio Files" folder set in project settings
Timebase for items, envelopes and markers "TIME"
Store peaks in alternate path
Prompt to save on new project
Plugins - Automatically resize Up and Down
automatic fade in/out for new items OFF
crossfade when splitting ON 0:00.005
All loop source options OFF
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While I don't agree with all of these choices, these are great things to discuss.
One of the most common things both of us see is users confused when they change the song tempo that the audio changes as well. Although, it's also a great introduction to that feature where it's so easy to change the tempo of your song and have the audio change as well.
Thanks
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12-29-2016, 01:30 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia
Thinking as a new user, what trips you up about the way it is now?
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From looking through the default menus, there seem to be quite a few things from the preferences menu that don't need to be there. For example, under the "track" menu, there are options for auto record-arming selected tracks, toggling multi-channel metering and even a whole sub-menu for performance options.
Other than that, the default menus just seem a bit messy. But that might just be because the different sections aren't labelled.
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12-29-2016, 01:33 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,551
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12-29-2016, 01:42 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna
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Needs to be default theme, otherwise good idea. It also appears to be lacking support, meaning it's been three years - someone should have evangelized it to actually make it something beyond a buried necro post.
Quote:
And I have a strong belief that learning REAPER as it's own entity is mnuch better than trying to make it emulate another (lesser ) DAW.
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The first thing that comes to mind is to iterate (or reiterate) the definition of beginner in the context of the overall need. My assumption is that if they are a 'beginner' they are not coming from another DAW and if they are a 'beginner' what exactly is intuitive is irrelevant in many ways.
The only other thing I can offer is to make it as easy as it can be but not in such away where once they decide to go to the 'normal/expert' mode if you will, and that be as foreign as it would have been anyway. Would be nice if we could also make such transition intuitive based on what they learned in the beginner template and so on. I almost wish we could just add a new main menu bar called Quick Start which just contained the basic most used 'yes you can record right now' items under it or something along those lines.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 12-29-2016 at 01:48 PM.
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12-29-2016, 02:06 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayJSE2
From looking through the default menus, there seem to be quite a few things from the preferences menu that don't need to be there. For example, under the "track" menu, there are options for auto record-arming selected tracks, toggling multi-channel metering and even a whole sub-menu for performance options.
Other than that, the default menus just seem a bit messy. But that might just be because the different sections aren't labelled.
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All good points.
I assume the idea is that digging thru the Preferences themselves can be a bit overwhelming.
Thanks
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12-29-2016, 02:06 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna
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I'll dig thru your menus when I get the chance but as I mentioned earlier, I'm not looking to stray from the Default theme.
Thanks
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12-29-2016, 02:10 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
The only other thing I can offer is to make it as easy as it can be but not in such away where once they decide to go to the 'normal/expert' mode if you will, and that be as foreign as it would have been anyway. Would be nice if we could also make such transition intuitive based on what they learned in the beginner template and so on. I almost wish we could just add a new main menu bar called Quick Start which just contained the basic most used 'yes you can record right now' items under it or something along those lines.
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Yes. Exactly.
The end goal is for it to feel very similar to the way it feels now. Not a complete re-write or re-think but some tweaking to put things in the most obvious places and move things out of the way that you won't need for quite a bit. And at that point, you wouldn't be afraid to look for the more advanced things.
Thanks
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12-29-2016, 02:48 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Whales, UK
Posts: 6,009
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conflicted about this -
the thrust and joy of reaper is personal configurability
small example of an issue i encountered: i tweaked my own menus very slightly some time ago,but then noticed a whole bunch of new stuff in the original menus is now there that i never see!
as a veteran thats ok, but beginner joe/jolene won't take kindly.
it basically put me off changing them for good, except for corner case personal workflows.
and there is a convenience of roughly knowing where everyones settings are across the user base, for communicating approaches or helping new users out. not a deal breaker but worth consideration.
just being devil advocate, nothing personal -
if we can help new users, great, just think if they e.g. watch all your vids, everyone else's vids, read the forum, spend time with reaper, and *still* dont get it, then such a user is at a certain end of the bell curve and realistically needs a more radical intervention to be helped.
that said you could nail something amazing,
so make reaper great again!
sorry for the gag. couldn't help it.
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12-29-2016, 03:26 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia
I've been starting this project, mostly in my head but I have tried out a few things, to create something of a Beginners Packet for people NEW to REAPER.
My goal is to keep it as simple as possible. Requiring little to NO changing of the application itself (although I could always create a FR) but I really want to stick to what we can customize already.
Where this ends up? I have no idea. But my goal, like with my videos, is to make REAPER as easy to use or navigate as possible.
So I'd really like to get input from you guys to see what your thoughts are. Please let's NOT turn this into a "Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools does this better so REAPER should do this too" thread. I'm not interested in what other applications do. The focus is on how REAPER can appear more user friendly for someone opening it for the first time.
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If people new to REAPER come out of nowhere and REAPER is the first sequencer they see, than let's forget about other sequencers. If not than let's not, fair enough? (And it's not about 'better', it's about 'used to', about habits.)
For me the biggest leap was that in REAPER you draw selection areas with the right click-drag, while everywhere else — with the left one.
Aside from that it's just a number of checkboxes ticked differently, I guess.
How can it be closer to what newcomers are used to
By default:
Seek playback when clicked Top ruler (only).
Media item edge - left drag - Move edge (and not loop the item)
(Loop-making should be bound to some mouse modifier.)
... And that's pretty much it.
Those were the most frequent complaints/questions from newcomers AFAIK.
Quote:
Menus. For the most part, I think everything is in the menus that needs to be there. We can add a few more items but unlike the ReaMenus (which I think is/was a great project) I don't want to fill them with almost every option available. Keeping it simple but still making things easier to find.
For instance, I've been using REAPER for many years but I still have trouble finding common windows like "Media Explorer, Track Manager, Routing Matrix" from an alphabatized View Menu, that includes lesser options like Big Clock and Crossfade Editor. So I'd like to break that up into importance and move some of those options to the Edit Menu. Dynamic Split & Transient Detection windows comes to mind.
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I was looking for Track Manager in the Track menu. Because isn't it natural:
Track this
Track that
...
Track Manager ?
Quote:
Track Layout I'd like to create a simplified Track Layout with bigger but less buttons to have to learn. I think a new user can get by without Monitoring (which could be ON by Default or set to Tape Mode) and Record Mode as separate buttons as you can Right-Click to change most of this.
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I like more old-fashioned way:
green input monitoring button,
red record button, —
as they say, plain and simple.
And yes, monitoring should be on by default.
BTW, don't we want to prepare new users to become not so new?
Quote:
Default Options I'm thinking that a new user could get up and running with Takes OFF by Default (Tape Mode) and Trim Content behind media items when editing turned ON. Basically forcing a one item at a time per track approach until you can learn more about advanced techniques.
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I'd prefer that the part of the previous recording that has been recorded upon was muted, not erased.
Or a possibility to lengthen the old item to it's original size with all the data restored.
Last edited by AugerJ; 12-29-2016 at 06:35 PM.
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12-29-2016, 03:53 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ
If people new to REAPER come out of nowhere and REAPER is the first sequencer they see, than let's forget about other sequencers. If not than let's not, fair enough?
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Not to put words in Kenny's mouth but in my mind, (assuming I didn't misunderstand your post) any previous other DAW experience is a different problem to be solved and sort of fall into the unlearning previous habits category. IOW, if you have used some other DAW successfully enough to develop any habits or conceptions from using them, this thread/idea wouldn't be for you; that would be a "I'm a insert_daw_here refugee" thread.
Cue Kenny's correction for anything I massively misunderstood.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-29-2016, 03:59 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 249
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Menu customization suggestion
I record very little. Mostly just compose and mix in the box.
I changed many of the menus to reflect the things that I use and leave everything else off BUT at the bottom of each customized menu the last menu item is "Default Menu: Media Item Context" or whatever.
Most customizations I do are on the right-click context menus. When I find my self choosing the Default Menu very often, I change the customized menu to include the things that I am using.
This also gives me easy access to new things on the menus.
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12-29-2016, 04:30 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Not to put words in Kenny's mouth but in my mind, (assuming I didn't misunderstand your post) any previous other DAW experience is a different problem to be solved and sort of fall into the unlearning previous habits category. IOW, if you have used some other DAW successfully enough to develop any habits or conceptions from using them, this thread/idea wouldn't be for you; that would be a "I'm a insert_daw_here refugee" thread.
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So, what are you suggesting? Count them all out and put in some kind of a DAW-rehab?
"Hi, my name is * and I was using... another DAW..."
"Hi, *..." (And so on.)
And if I draw selection areas with the left drag in the OS I'm using, does it make me this OS refugee in the eyes of REAPER?
Anyways, I think it's a good thing to have in consideration the features that a number of other sequencers have in common — and REAPER doesn't (or doesn't have turned on by default).
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12-29-2016, 04:51 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Musquodoboit Harbour, Nova Scotia
Posts: 338
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Track Templates
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia
I've been starting this project, mostly in my head but I have tried out a few things, to create something of a Beginners Packet for people NEW to REAPER.
My goal is to keep it as simple as possible. Requiring little to NO changing of the application itself (although I could always create a FR) but I really want to stick to what we can customize already.
Where this ends up? I have no idea. But my goal, like with my videos, is to make REAPER as easy to use or navigate as possible.
So I'd really like to get input from you guys to see what your thoughts are. Please let's NOT turn this into a "Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools does this better so REAPER should do this too" thread. I'm not interested in what other applications do. The focus is on how REAPER can appear more user friendly for someone opening it for the first time.
We can also avoid the "REAPER isn't professional unless it does this" BS as well. If you can't stay positive in this thread, please create another in the Lounge to air your grievances.
To add to this, I'm going to outline the areas I am most focused on but please feel free to venture away from these or expand or criticize my focus on them.
Menus. For the most part, I think everything is in the menus that needs to be there. We can add a few more items but unlike the ReaMenus (which I think is/was a great project) I don't want to fill them with almost every option available. Keeping it simple but still making things easier to find.
For instance, I've been using REAPER for many years but I still have trouble finding common windows like "Media Explorer, Track Manager, Routing Matrix" from an alphabatized View Menu, that includes lesser options like Big Clock and Crossfade Editor. So I'd like to break that up into importance and move some of those options to the Edit Menu. Dynamic Split & Transient Detection windows comes to mind.
Track Layout I'd like to create a simplified Track Layout with bigger but less buttons to have to learn. I think a new user can get by without Monitoring (which could be ON by Default or set to Tape Mode) and Record Mode as separate buttons as you can Right-Click to change most of this.
Default Options I'm thinking that a new user could get up and running with Takes OFF by Default (Tape Mode) and Trim Content behind media items when editing turned ON. Basically forcing a one item at a time per track approach until you can learn more about advanced techniques.
I'm going to start with just this and see where it takes us. If anywhere at all.
Thanks
EDIT!!! - Very important. We're not discussing a different Default Theme. So please, let's not go there.
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I think this is a great idea.
I've been helping a friend get started recording with Reaper recently.
After a few sessions it occurred to me that I should put together a master recording template for him.
Simple but effective for a new user.
Track 1 - Electric guitar
Track 2 - Solo Electric Guitar
Track 3 - Acoustic guitar
Track 4 - Lead vocal
Track 5 - Harmony vocal
I added some basic FX for the guitars using Reaper Comp & EQ with presets.
I added FX for the vocals using Reaper plugin and presets.
I added a VoxReverb for vocals & put it on Track 6.
Done! Took me less than 5 minutes and he was ready to go.
I showed him how the metronome worked and gave him a few drum loops to play with.
I know it was cheating a bit but it got him recording quickly.
I saved the template & taught him how to save his songs and start new songs using the template.
I showed him how to set the tempo in project settings.
Templates for track layouts would be extremely helpful to new users.
Great topic to brainstorm on & come with some simple usable features to get newcomers started with Reaper.
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12-29-2016, 04:59 PM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ
So, what are you suggesting?
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Basically the same thing I already suggested...
Quote:
this thread/idea wouldn't be for you; that would be a "I'm a insert_daw_here refugee" thread.
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There should be a similar but separate resource for those coming from other DAWs, it's a great idea but afaik that is outside of the realm of this thread *but could be wrong* so Kenny can clear it up - my assumption is there is some overlap but more about what reaper does do, not what where you came from did do (sort of what Kenny said already). There have been some of these in the past say for PT users but no one keeps them updated and relevant IIRC - or they do I just don't notice since it isn't relevant to me personally. Either way I think those should be kept current or redone et al so that what you are suggesting still occurs.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 12-29-2016 at 05:09 PM.
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12-29-2016, 05:23 PM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
... There should be a similar but separate resource for those coming from other DAWs ...
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What about the rest of my original message (about a couple of checkboxes etc.)?
Do the things a said there not belong here either, in your opinion?
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12-29-2016, 05:49 PM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ
What about the rest of my original message (about a couple of checkboxes etc.)?
Do the things a said there not belong here either, in your opinion?
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I know it's just an ask of my opinion but probably better that Kenny answer because I don't want to misinterpret his intentions.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-29-2016, 06:26 PM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia
Default Options I'm thinking that a new user could get up and running with Takes OFF by Default (Tape Mode) and Trim Content behind media items when editing turned ON. Basically forcing a one item at a time per track approach until you can learn more about advanced techniques.
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Before I say or add anything else I want to say that THIS is critical and it never made any sense to me for it to be otherwise. It's misguided for people to say "They can RTFM and learn hiw to customize it" because by the time you've figured out what has gone wrong (it's not even clear where to begin to hunt it down until you're already beginning to settle in with Reaper) a new user, DAW experienced or not, is likely to feel, after 15 minutes of being unable to understand what just happened, their enthusiasm dwindled. I've given about 10 people introductions to Reaper, all levels of experience, and unless I went in and changed a host of the default settings before they started this was the result every time.
Yes, absolutely : ) Takes off, tape mode, one item per track until one wants to delve into take mode.
This is a great undertaking, Kenny, one that I've always been surprised meant much less to others than it did to me. Reaper really needs to have less features that are on by default no matter how amazing they are, if they cause confusion, even in how to make it stop and what the heck just happened, if they occur without intent. A great function that is like that? Read about it and then find out how to turn it on. Not how to turn it off, if you still have the patience to figure out what it is : )
Anything to do with takes or looping (track and item source) should be turned on by someone wanting to turn it on. Any actions besides navigation should have no keystroke assigned to it at default.
__________________
The reason rain dances work is because they don't stop dancing until it rains.
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12-29-2016, 07:15 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx
conflicted about this -
the thrust and joy of reaper is personal configurability
small example of an issue i encountered: i tweaked my own menus very slightly some time ago,but then noticed a whole bunch of new stuff in the original menus is now there that i never see!
as a veteran thats ok, but beginner joe/jolene won't take kindly.
it basically put me off changing them for good, except for corner case personal workflows.
and there is a convenience of roughly knowing where everyones settings are across the user base, for communicating approaches or helping new users out. not a deal breaker but worth consideration.
just being devil advocate, nothing personal -
if we can help new users, great, just think if they e.g. watch all your vids, everyone else's vids, read the forum, spend time with reaper, and *still* dont get it, then such a user is at a certain end of the bell curve and realistically needs a more radical intervention to be helped.
that said you could nail something amazing,
so make reaper great again!
sorry for the gag. couldn't help it.
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OK. I'm definitely throwing people off here.
So let's start again. Let's "pretend" that whatever we change actually becomes the Default.
That will solve all of the issues. Obviously. And get us back to what we can do (or would do) to change the Default or new experience for people using REAPER for the first time.
Thanks and sorry for the confusion.
Kenny
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12-29-2016, 07:49 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Whales, UK
Posts: 6,009
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I'm sorry I read 'beginners pack' which no matter how cool will probably grow cold n drift into space!
New Improved default makes more sense, I'll be quiet!
My v personal opinion tho is much energy is going into helping corner case daw snowflakes who only need one more days worth of persistence to have zero problem in the first place. Maybe I'm a big meanie.
Edit: I won't clutter up a thread for genuine positive change with further observations. Best o luck
Last edited by BenK-msx; 12-29-2016 at 07:58 PM.
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12-29-2016, 07:59 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,193
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I am truly surprised that the default menus are still the way they are.
At least, at first, they should be organized. Headers (like ReaMenus), maybe some icons.
Two things I think would go a long way to helping past that is to give Windows users an emulation of the Mac menu search filter, and to split some menus into horizontal stacks.
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12-29-2016, 08:00 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 476
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I think, "Track Inspector" (a part of the mixer) should be shown by default. Almost like on this image:
Master track could be narrow though. Like the other one. It would save some space.
And probably checkboxes
Mouse click on volume/pan faders and track buttons changes track selection
and
Mouse click/edit in track view changes track selection
should be ticked by default.
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12-29-2016, 10:04 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ
If people new to REAPER come out of nowhere and REAPER is the first sequencer they see, than let's forget about other sequencers. If not than let's not, fair enough? (And it's not about 'better', it's about 'used to', about habits.)
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I'm trying to ignore other DAWs for a few reasons. The biggest being that (as far as I can see) REAPER has never been about keeping up with or copying other DAW's features. Sure. They'll add VCAs or Trim Envelopes but they don't implement them in the same way. So I don't want to break with that concept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ
How can it be closer to what newcomers are used to
By default:
Seek playback when clicked Top ruler (only).
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This is an interesting one. I see your point but I also like this behavior. Interested to hear other's opinions but this could go either way for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ
Media item edge - left drag - Move edge (and not loop the item)
(Loop-making should be bound to some mouse modifier.)
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I see looping by default more of a personal taste rather than a right or wrong but I could go either way on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ
I was looking for Track Manager in the Track menu. Because isn't it natural:
Track this
Track that
...
Track Manager ?
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I was about to disagree on this one but I think I might have to see your point on this. Yes.
I do think we should add a Track - Hide to this menu in addition to Right Clicking the track. Shouldn't need to go to the Track Manager just to hide a track.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ
And yes, monitoring should be on by default.
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Cool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ
I'd prefer that the part of the previous recording that has been recorded upon was muted, not erased.
Or a possibility to lengthen the old item to it's original size with all the data restored.
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If a piece of it was still there you can always trim it back keeping it on the track yet muted seems confusing to me.
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Not to put words in Kenny's mouth but in my mind, (assuming I didn't misunderstand your post) any previous other DAW experience is a different problem to be solved and sort of fall into the unlearning previous habits category. IOW, if you have used some other DAW successfully enough to develop any habits or conceptions from using them, this thread/idea wouldn't be for you; that would be a "I'm a insert_daw_here refugee" thread.
Cue Kenny's correction for anything I massively misunderstood.
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I agree but I also think we can bridge both ideas without making it mimic any other DAW.
For instance, while the change from another DAW will still be hard, an easier start for a newbie should also be easier for someone who already knows another DAW as the changes will still make sense without catering to the tools that they're used to.
But above all, REAPER has it's own approach which should supercede other DAWs and their workflow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ
Anyways, I think it's a good thing to have in consideration the features that a number of other sequencers have in common — and REAPER doesn't (or doesn't have turned on by default).
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On this I would tend to agree. I mean, do any other DAWs mute their monitoring by default? I use this feature all the time for doing voiceover work so I can leave my monitors on and work without headphones but I would expect my case to be more rare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by europa_man
I think this is a great idea.
I've been helping a friend get started recording with Reaper recently.
After a few sessions it occurred to me that I should put together a master recording template for him.
Simple but effective for a new user.
Track 1 - Electric guitar
Track 2 - Solo Electric Guitar
Track 3 - Acoustic guitar
Track 4 - Lead vocal
Track 5 - Harmony vocal
I added some basic FX for the guitars using Reaper Comp & EQ with presets.
I added FX for the vocals using Reaper plugin and presets.
I added a VoxReverb for vocals & put it on Track 6.
Done! Took me less than 5 minutes and he was ready to go.
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I wasn't thinking of templates but it doesn't sound like a bad idea. Especially since it takes up no download size and we already have Project Templates as a feature.
Include Track Templates as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdubreeze
Before I say or add anything else I want to say that THIS is critical and it never made any sense to me for it to be otherwise. It's misguided for people to say "They can RTFM and learn hiw to customize it" because by the time you've figured out what has gone wrong (it's not even clear where to begin to hunt it down until you're already beginning to settle in with Reaper) a new user, DAW experienced or not, is likely to feel, after 15 minutes of being unable to understand what just happened, their enthusiasm dwindled. I've given about 10 people introductions to Reaper, all levels of experience, and unless I went in and changed a host of the default settings before they started this was the result every time.
Yes, absolutely : ) Takes off, tape mode, one item per track until one wants to delve into take mode.
This is a great undertaking, Kenny, one that I've always been surprised meant much less to others than it did to me. Reaper really needs to have less features that are on by default no matter how amazing they are, if they cause confusion, even in how to make it stop and what the heck just happened, if they occur without intent. A great function that is like that? Read about it and then find out how to turn it on. Not how to turn it off, if you still have the patience to figure out what it is : )
Anything to do with takes or looping (track and item source) should be turned on by someone wanting to turn it on.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vdubreeze
Any actions besides navigation should have no keystroke assigned to it at default.
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No keystrokes? That seems bit extreme. No?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx
My v personal opinion tho is much energy is going into helping corner case daw snowflakes who only need one more days worth of persistence to have zero problem in the first place. Maybe I'm a big meanie.
Edit: I won't clutter up a thread for genuine positive change with further observations. Best o luck
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Do you think it's close enough not to cause too much confusion for newbies?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ
I think, "Track Inspector" (a part of the mixer) should be shown by default. Almost like on this image:
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One idea I have (but it would require the Dev team to do it) is to create another Mixer window that has only one fader and goes to the left of the TCP. I create this in my videos:
Video
but it's more of a hack. If it was a feature, it could serve as a track inspector where you could see one full fader based on the selected track.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ
And probably checkboxes
Mouse click on volume/pan faders and track buttons changes track selection
and
Mouse click/edit in track view changes track selection
should be ticked by default.
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I know this changed over the years but I thought it was the Default now. No?
Last edited by Kenny Gioia; 12-29-2016 at 10:30 PM.
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12-29-2016, 10:55 PM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia
...
One idea I have (but it would require the Dev team to do it) is to create another Mixer window that has only one fader and goes to the left of the TCP. I create this in my videos:
Video
but it's more of a hack. If it was a feature, it could serve as a track inspector where you could see one full fader based on the selected track.
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I'd ask for two tracks: the selected one and the Master (on the left). So a user at any time could notice if the Master is clipping (or about to clip).
Quote:
" Originally Posted by AugerJ View Post
And probably checkboxes
Mouse click on volume/pan faders and track buttons changes track selection
and
Mouse click/edit in track view changes track selection
should be ticked by default."
I know this changed over the years but I thought it was the Default now. No?
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Frankly, I can't remember by now )
But if it's on by default, let's keep it that way )
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12-29-2016, 10:57 PM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,989
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----
-This is how I set up snapping. This is only way to make sure you wont split or position items off the grid, and in truth it should be default snapping setting.
- Project measure could start at -1 and pan law set to +0.0
- Ruler default measure could be set to minimal
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Re looping, if you have item that is looping, and you copy it, the first loop of copied item will not behave as it is the first item, which causes weird behaviors. I'm not going to make gifs for that, cause I have looping off, so you got to try yourself. Pooled items, although flawed too in reaper, seam to be cleaner overall and simpler do deal with.
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I don't know how possible that would be, but in current situation I'd actually group menus in to categories and display them as sub menus, but their sub menus I'd display as pop ups. Less to navigate trough, and would make lists more compact and user friendly.
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Have a toolbar that has buttons to open preferences, settings, action list, modifiers, toolbar edit etc.
-
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12-29-2016, 11:29 PM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia
I'm trying to ignore other DAWs for a few reasons. The biggest being that (as far as I can see) REAPER has never been about keeping up with or copying other DAW's features. Sure. They'll add VCAs or Trim Envelopes but they don't implement them in the same way. So I don't want to break with that concept.
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Kenny, this is great and a much needed Mania ... thank you for tackling this!
__________________
The future ain't what it used to be. Yogi Berra
Last edited by Gerry P; 12-29-2016 at 11:37 PM.
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