Old 03-01-2016, 09:50 AM   #1
Multibomber
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Default Mixing Heavy Drums Tutorial that doesn't use samples?

Hello everyone! Long time no see! Things have been going well for me, drum sounds are coming out pretty well, however, in my never-ending search for better sounds, I'm looking for a good drum mixing tutorial video that doesnt use samples, and isnt pop/country/indie/cure for insomnia. Every single live drum mixing tutorial I've found is very mellow indie/garage rock or pop, and every metal or aggressive drums mixing tutorial I've found uses ^!%&@#&@#@%^!$#&$^%$!#&*#$% samples.

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:04 AM   #2
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https://www.groove3.com/mixing-train...avy-Rock-Metal

It covers an entire mix but from what I remember, goes into detail with the drums also.
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Old 03-04-2016, 12:14 AM   #3
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I got fed up with the same thing you mentioned. It is almost as if no metal nowadays uses real recorded drums performed by a real live drummer. Seems the only thing these TUTs want to show is how to make techno with distorted guitars using only amp sims.

I actually found this tutorial which is written by a real live drummer the best guide to getting good sounding drum tracks.

http://gorangrooves.com/drums/secret...recording.html

I used the above guide along with the "In Soviet Russia, Drums Slam You!" excerpt from the Systematic Mixing Guide which I found on the Sneap Forum (I used the Systematic excerpt to get some general idea on EQ regions to key in on for drum EQ. More than not though, the Goran Groove tutorial was more than enough to get me close enough to where my muse was directing me. I was definitely NOT wanting the modern scooped drums with typewriter kicks, a pingy snare, toms with no character, and cymbals high passed so they killed the feel of the performance.

What I hear in my head is kicks that sound like an earthquake, or a freight train at full speed, a deep wooden snare that the pop and crack are balanced, toms that shake the foundation, overheads that capture everything else the drums dont. Most of all the breathing of the performance. I equate metal drummers to athletes, NOT drum machines. As long as the guys is on the beat on 1, and nailing every change as well as his fills being on time, thats perfect. The only time I used samples on my album was to augment the kicks slightly when they seemed to disappear, or the snare for the same. With the kicks I created a sample stacking several freebies I found online to get a nice click and only used it when the kick track seemed to wash out with the rest of the instruments and only for slight definition. The snare I did the same but used three different rim shots the drummer had done and those were used more when he would be blasting for longer than 2 bars and would lighten his hits. Again only enough to define his hits and not replace them.

Another thing I did was to create a better sounding room than he recorded in (metal storage building). I ran the drum bus into Valhalla Room side chained on its own track. Printed that, then ran the bus again as well as the output with Room into another track side chained with a heavier verby room to augment the whole drum tracks. Not the best, but sounds loads better than the dry tracks themselves.

As far as EQ and compression go, follow the Goran Grooves Tut or uss presets to get you into the ball park, then tweak those until you find your sweet spot for your particular kit.
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Old 03-04-2016, 05:34 AM   #4
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Question: How is mixing samples different from mixing real drums?

The only thing I can think of is bleed.
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Old 03-04-2016, 05:48 AM   #5
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I think the answer is a good sounding kit, a good drummer and a good arrangement. I don't think Brann Dailor from Mastodon use samples, and he sounds great.
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Old 03-04-2016, 05:49 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
Question: How is mixing samples different from mixing real drums?

The only thing I can think of is bleed.
And phase.
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Old 03-04-2016, 04:00 PM   #7
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And phase.
Nope phase is still an issue if you're using Overhead mics and room mics or you're blending samples with acoustic drums (as opposed to replacement) which is very common.

Here's mike portnoy on the subject of sample replacement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc-nIEEyR3k#t=80


I dont think you are going to find ANY heavy music that doesnt use drum samples for at least the kick. IMO for rock and metal the Kick should be pinned - zero dynamics. The easiest way to do that is with sample augmentation or replacement. Its part of the sound of the heavier genres and quite honestly blast beats don't sound very good without samples...

Until now accoring to this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MraTGWBLvSA

I own this plugin and IMO its a miracle worker for inconsistent drummers (so basically all drummers). Modern pop/rock/country/metal drum sounds are impossibly dynamically consistent largely due to sample augmentation or replacement. This plug can even the playing field quite a bit. That said even well recorded drums are STILL augmented for pop and rock. Kenny gioia does this in all the tutorials I have seen. "the snare sounds good but we can make it better" and goes on to layer 3 samples underneath the acoustic snare to create a HUGE sounding amalgam. For better or worse Its just par for the course in modern production like autotune and quantizing to the grid.

FWIW here's Glenn Fricker's tutorial for recording and mixing drums over at ultimate metal. Its a bit old but there's alot of good info.
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/t...-guide.217656/

Of course theres this thread over at GS
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-...guideline.html

Last edited by Magicbuss; 03-04-2016 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 03-04-2016, 04:10 PM   #8
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And phase.
Thanks man. You just totally convinced me to drop samples were possible, and just do synthesis.
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Old 03-04-2016, 04:48 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Multibomber View Post
Hello everyone! Long time no see! Things have been going well for me, drum sounds are coming out pretty well, however, in my never-ending search for better sounds, I'm looking for a good drum mixing tutorial video that doesnt use samples, and isnt pop/country/indie/cure for insomnia. Every single live drum mixing tutorial I've found is very mellow indie/garage rock or pop, and every metal or aggressive drums mixing tutorial I've found uses ^!%&@#&@#@%^!$#&$^%$!#&*#$% samples.

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!
I didn't use samples in my latest mixing tutorial I have for sale on my site. The drums sounded very nice to begin with and suited the song

If you visit the site there's an excerpt of the drum section on compressing the overheads.

http://reaperblog.net/products/mixing-in-reaper-vol-2/
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Old 03-04-2016, 07:37 PM   #10
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I need examples of the well produced modern metal that DOESNT use samples at all.
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Old 03-04-2016, 07:42 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by EpicSounds View Post
I didn't use samples in my latest mixing tutorial I have for sale on my site. The drums sounded very nice to begin with and suited the song

If you visit the site there's an excerpt of the drum section on compressing the overheads.

http://reaperblog.net/products/mixing-in-reaper-vol-2/
I liked what you were doing there in the excerpt. Do you find a top down approach to drums easier than ground up a lot of guys that mix metal use? When I was trying to figure out how to approach my album how I heard it in my head, Ground up was so frustrating. Someone here on the Reaper forum had posted in some thread that he uses the overheads as the main drum track and uses the close mics to fill out what the overheads are catching. Once I tried that approach it all clicked. I'm going to go back and mess with compressing the overheads similar to how you showed on the video to see if I can get anything cool to pop out.
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Old 03-04-2016, 07:52 PM   #12
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I need examples of the well produced modern metal that DOESNT use samples at all.
I dont think there is any. There also isn't any modern metal drum recordings that floor me the way the stuff from the late 80's/early 90's did. The whole zero dynamics for the drums nowadays sucks ass period. Like I said earlier. I f-ing loathe distorted guitar techno. Metal is supposed to be ugly and just on the verge of falling off the rails.
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Old 03-04-2016, 08:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
Question: How is mixing samples different from mixing real drums?

The only thing I can think of is bleed.
Bleed, dynamics, and phase.

When you mix sampled kits say from Toontracks software, or any others, you don't have to start off the mix by editing out unnecessary bleed off the tom tracks, then you don't have to time align the overheads to each other, then to the various drums afterward. Most drum software already has phase-corrected samples to make up your kit so you don't have to finalize you drum mix with phase alignment of the individual drums to each other and the overheads. Samples are also a ton easier to augment than live drums. As Magicbus said, you still will run into phase issues when augmenting live drums.
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Old 03-04-2016, 10:01 PM   #14
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Do you find a top down approach to drums easier than ground up a lot of guys that mix metal use? When I was trying to figure out how to approach my album how I heard it in my head, Ground up was so frustrating.
It depends on the kit. It has to be well balanced to begin with.

Starting with close mics is necessary for when the drums aren't well maintained, poorly tuned, no damping, poorly played. Where there's a lot of work required to make it work in the track.


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Someone here on the Reaper forum had posted in some thread that he uses the overheads as the main drum track and uses the close mics to fill out what the overheads are catching. Once I tried that approach it all clicked.
It's a good approach. Treating it as the overall sound of the kit rather than just the cymbals.
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Old 03-05-2016, 04:37 AM   #15
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Nope phase is still an issue if you're using Overhead mics and room mics or you're blending samples with acoustic drums (as opposed to replacement) which is very common.
Yes, of course. My bad. I thought he meant mixing only samples. If you blend samples, it's another story.
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Old 03-05-2016, 03:30 PM   #16
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Bleed, dynamics, and phase.

When you mix sampled kits say from Toontracks software, or any others, you don't have to start off the mix by editing out unnecessary bleed off the tom tracks, then you don't have to time align the overheads to each other, then to the various drums afterward. Most drum software already has phase-corrected samples to make up your kit so you don't have to finalize you drum mix with phase alignment of the individual drums to each other and the overheads. Samples are also a ton easier to augment than live drums. As Magicbus said, you still will run into phase issues when augmenting live drums.
So what the OP really needs (IMO) is help dealing with bleed, dynamics, and phase, and after that his mixing process should be largely the same.
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Old 03-06-2016, 03:37 AM   #17
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Well, if the OP records his own drums, the main difficulties come from tuning, room, drummer and miking technique.
A great sounding live kit without samples depends for the most part on the recording stage.
Mixing with samples is "easier" not only because of the bleed, but also because they often are professionally recorded and most of the time pre-processed by someone else, in a good studio (if not a great one)and played by a good drummer.

So, when it comes to mix live drums, there are a bunch of other stuffs to be aware of, but ALL begins in the recording stage, no shortcuts or magics for this.

Also i love making my own samples from the kit i'm recording when i need to replace or augment live drums.
This should be absolutely needed if the drummer hasn't a steady dynamic and poor technique.

Just my opinion
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Old 03-08-2016, 06:12 AM   #18
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I need examples of the well produced modern metal that DOESNT use samples at all.
As Blood Runs Black https://youtu.be/cF4OqYUD690

Leche is an absolute MONSTER! Didn't use samples on this entire album, it sounded amazing. He is an other worldly talent.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:08 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
Question: How is mixing samples different from mixing real drums?

The only thing I can think of is bleed.
Samples are already EQ'd, gated, compressed, transient designed, and reverbed, in a professional room by people who have been doing this their whole lives and know what the hell they're doing.

Mixing drum samples is like saying "Hey everybody, I hit a triple!!"
... "No man, you started out on 3rd base."
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:58 AM   #20
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So what the OP really needs (IMO) is help dealing with bleed, dynamics, and phase, and after that his mixing process should be largely the same.
Bleed is actually one thing that I have almost no problem with. I've been using Drumatom to eliminate bleed, and between that plugin and my internal mics, bleed isn't an issue at all. Since I am using internal mics (can't afford to buy 5 MD421s), my EQ experience is a bit unique, it appears I need to really scoop out the honk of the toms (-12 dbs at around 500hz).
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Old 03-08-2016, 02:41 PM   #21
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That's pretty normal.
On toms (real ones) you'll get everytime a big scoop to get that "modern" drum sound,and you'll get a bigger ones if you mics and placement wheren't right!
But with eq is a simple task. You keep on trying until your ears are satisfied.
The most important part to mix great live drums is... recording them the best you can!
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:28 PM   #22
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Samples are already EQ'd, gated, compressed, transient designed, and reverbed, in a professional room by people who have been doing this their whole lives and know what the hell they're doing.

Mixing drum samples is like saying "Hey everybody, I hit a triple!!"
... "No man, you started out on 3rd base."
EZDrummer and Steven Slate are pre-mixed, but things like Superior Drummer are running on raw samples. EZD2 will let you work with only-slightly-mixed samples too.
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Old 03-09-2016, 12:09 AM   #23
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Also i love making my own samples from the kit i'm recording when i need to replace or augment live drums.
This should be absolutely needed if the drummer hasn't a steady dynamic and poor technique.

Just my opinion
That is almost necessary these days. When I was editing our album, I had asked the drummer who had played on them to give me a sample track of some rim shots from every drum minus the kick, and about 15-20 hits from each hand in varying velocities. "Just make sure you allow each hit to fully ring out before the next one, this way there is no bleed between each hit. Also if you can throw a comforter over the rest of the kit you aren't hitting so we can minimize sympathetic resonant bleeding into the mics".

What do I get? All the drums on one single track with each hit falling within two seconds of each other. He kept getting mad that I would replace his drums during initial mixdowns. One time I went full 909 on him.
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Old 03-14-2016, 04:37 AM   #24
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That is almost necessary these days. When I was editing our album, I had asked the drummer who had played on them to give me a sample track of some rim shots from every drum minus the kick, and about 15-20 hits from each hand in varying velocities. "Just make sure you allow each hit to fully ring out before the next one, this way there is no bleed between each hit. Also if you can throw a comforter over the rest of the kit you aren't hitting so we can minimize sympathetic resonant bleeding into the mics".

What do I get? All the drums on one single track with each hit falling within two seconds of each other. He kept getting mad that I would replace his drums during initial mixdowns. One time I went full 909 on him.
For reasons unbeknownst to me, one thing that I've always been good at is playing with the same velocity. I've been telling myself that I dont need to sample my own kit... but yeah I definitely need to sample my own kit. When I look back and think how many times I've scrapped a take because of one hit rim or a complete whiff. If I understand correctly, when sampling your own kit, you will record every mic just like you would if you were playing the whole thing, yes?
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