Old 09-05-2016, 12:31 AM   #1
nmccarrick36
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Default Mixing Guitars for rock and metal

Hello! So I am rather new to trying different ways on getting that wall of sound that is prevalent in modern rock and metal music these days. I am wondering how does one get that? I don't mean doubling. Doubling tends to suck in terms of quality. It has the oompf but no finesse.
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Old 09-05-2016, 01:58 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by nmccarrick36 View Post
Hello! So I am rather new to trying different ways on getting that wall of sound that is prevalent in modern rock and metal music these days. I am wondering how does one get that? I don't mean doubling. Doubling tends to suck in terms of quality. It has the oompf but no finesse.
You want that 'wall of sound', you'll want to at least double. And I don't mean copy/ paste the gtr track but record 2 separate tracks (maybe that's why quality sucks?). Hell, I've used 4-6 gtr tracks to create a tsunami of sound!

Are you using ampsims or recording real amps? This can make a difference....
Don't overdo the distortion and use some eq to get both gtr tracks sitting right.
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Old 09-05-2016, 02:39 AM   #3
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doubletrack guitars left and right. Maybe use the DI´s to re-amp through another setup and blend to taste.

record a great e-bass track that follows the guitars and has a nice growl to it. Compress a lot
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Old 09-05-2016, 09:45 AM   #4
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I am wondering how does one get that? I don't mean doubling. Doubling tends to suck in terms of quality. It has the oompf but no finesse.
Double track with finesse, then . No way to have a big sounding heavy guitars without at least double tracking IMO.
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Old 09-05-2016, 10:46 AM   #5
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Hello! So I am rather new to trying different ways on getting that wall of sound that is prevalent in modern rock and metal music these days. I am wondering how does one get that? I don't mean doubling. Doubling tends to suck in terms of quality. It has the oompf but no finesse.
A seperate performance in each speaker is almost always the formula

I have no idea what you mean by has oomph and no finess
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Old 09-05-2016, 02:10 PM   #6
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As others have said, it's all about having multiple guitar tracks. Some methods for doing this, from simplest to most complicated, are:

1. Just double your performance. Pan one to the left, one to the right. You can hard-pan them, or bring them in to like 90% if it sounds a little weird. I personally hate hard-panned guitars by themselves.

2. Double your performance but with a different pickup, or guitar, or amp, or cab, or mic. The more differences between the left and right tracks, the wider it will sound, but obviously there's a point where the two sounds won't fit together anymore.

If you have more than one amp, a good starting point is to just change that and leave the guitar, cab, and mic setup all the same. The different amps will have different "flavors" of distortion, so you'll get some width that way.

3. Quad-tracking. Play the same thing four times, put two on the left, two on the right.

4. Quad-tracking with different tones like in #2. This could be two Marshall tracks on the left and two Peaveys on the right, or one of each on both sides if the stereo field gets lopsided.

5. MORE TRACKS!!!!! Metallica's Black Album was upwards of five tracks in places, and I think Master of Puppets got up to six; quad-tracking as above, and then two more tracks playing ONLY the low-E-string parts to make all the chugs sound thicker.

Now, with this many tracks it's really important to play as tightly as possible. Modern albums are also edited to hell, with the guitars chopped up and lined up with the drums so everything is perfectly in-time.

It's equally important to change how you dial in a guitar tone. If you've got something that sounds super badass by itself, odds are it'll sound like a shitty mess when there are four tracks of it going at once. Pull back the gain to where it has just enough balls to sound good, drop the bass a bit, and bump up the mids.

Lastly, and maybe the most important: On pretty much any album you can think of with a crushingly heavy guitar tone, the bass is doing a ton of work. The Black Album is a great example - Jason has a ridiculously thick, growly, clanky tone going that complements the guitars perfectly. By themselves the guitars sound a bit thin and scoopy, but that just leaves room for the bass to really punch through.

Last edited by Lokasenna; 09-05-2016 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 09-06-2016, 05:34 AM   #7
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I like to have the bass do most of the heavy lifting too, the guitars really just add harmony and harmonic content to the foundation of the bass. However, I am led to believe that in a lot of modern metal the guitars are taking up most of the low end and the bass is just quietly adding deep lows.

As some people have intimated, if it is lacking finesse then that is probably down to not playing tight enough with yourself. You have to really be sure of every nuance in timing for it to work.

Four guitar tracks is a good one - 1 pair of beefy guitars panned L/R, with a fair amount of distortion but quite a bit less than you'd use if you were in a band practice, and 1 pair of even cleaner and more trebly guitars (possible playing in a higher register and/or some more complex harmonies than fifths and inverted fifths) panned further L/R.

When considering guitar sounds for layering, I've found it helps to think of distortion as cumulative - so the more guitars you have going, the more you need to dial back the gain (not a rule, just as a general guide).
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Old 09-09-2016, 01:12 AM   #8
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Good advise from everyone, but I will add that quad tracking tremolo picked guitar sections can lead to a hot mess real fast. Especially if the passage is fairly intricate. Unless you are completely on top of your game and can play 16ths and 32nds at 180bpm+ precisely to the click.
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Old 09-11-2016, 05:15 PM   #9
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Thanks a great deal with all of your advice! I currently only have on amp, which is the Marshal DSL 40C 40watt Combo amp... I mean I also have a 15 watt hardcore laney amp that I use when going places where my big amp wont fit. I am looking for a better small amp, then the first practice amp I got xD. Personally I like going for a rather large amount of reverb in my guitar work, that being said if I make duplicates of the track, of if I play the same part again with the same amount of reverb, will it sound awful? I have not yet tried it. My setup consists of my Marshall amp, that is being miked by a Sennhiser e609 and Shure SM57. The pedals I am using are: Hall of Fame Reverb pedal by TC electronic, Ibanez TS9 Tube Screamer and a Behringer UM300 Ultra metal pedal. I am also looking for a better pedal then the behringer as well. I have the e609 hanging from one corner, if you look at the picture of the amp, it is hanging between the standby switch and the ultra reverb knob. The end of the mic is just below the logo. The Sm57 I have pointed at near direct center. My guitar is a Schecter Hellraiser C7 in gloss white with the low B downtuned to an A. I have the amp turned slightly so I can pick up on Feedback better, but positioning it is kinda difficult as I am not sure exactly how to set it up...If that makes sense. I am still rather new to playing in different tunnings so I mostly play in Drop A E standard? I think thats the right tuning on my seven string. I have played in C# before and that was sweet for heavy darker parts, but I am learning to transpose (God forbid if I used the wrong word, I don't remember what it is called where you play something that is done in a different tunning in like a different key or whatever...Thats a thing right? Also, sorry for the long reply. I have not included a picture as the picture I was trying to upload was too big, or not the right size, or whatever else sorry about that.
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Old 09-11-2016, 06:14 PM   #10
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A nice trick I like to do is put a dynamic mic right in front of my picking hand and mixing that in with the amped or effected signal (which I record simultaneously). You can compress the hell out of the distorted tracks if necessary (it's common) and still preserve some picking dynamics that way.
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Old 09-18-2016, 06:33 PM   #11
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My personal nit when trying to lay down a heavy guitar part, if I'm the recordist as well, is that I'm too far from the amp, or at least further from it when I'm getting a great sound playing and not worrying about recording. I miss the liveliness that standing as close to your amp as you want gets you. I often split the signal into a tiny 3" amp attached to a stand right next to me and play close to it. It buzzes and sounds really shitty but it doesn't matter because it doesn't get recorded, it just serves to interact with the pickups. It makes the combo amp behind the baffles sound much bigger.

Also, I'm a big fan when doubling of not necessarily changing sound or amp. Just track it again, same everything. It gives a certain vibe that you don't get when you make the sound on the double different. Naturally it all depends of what you're going for and what works, but before I swap something when doubling more often than not I tear off another take without changing anything, just a different performance.
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Old 09-18-2016, 08:37 PM   #12
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Suggestion: Don't put an SM57 directly on the center of the speaker. That's where ALL the fizz lives, and 57s love fizz.

If you can see through the grille, try pointing it straight at where the central "cap" meets the speaker cone (it's probably 1" or so from center). You can turn the mic a little, back toward the center, if this position isn't bright enough for you.
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Old 09-20-2016, 06:50 PM   #13
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2 Cool new ideas I found here:
Mic on pick sounds
Tiny un-mic'd amp in front of guitar, for feedback to simulate a big amp

I love the REAPER forums, full of fascinating stuff.
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Old 09-21-2016, 06:37 AM   #14
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Along with putting a mic in front of your picking hand:

If your distorted sound is starting to lose some clarity and the sound of the notes you're playing, try recording a DI track at the same time as the amp.

Compress the shit out of it, EQ it so all you have is the range between, say, 300 and 800, and quietly blend it in under the distorted track.
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Old 09-21-2016, 06:47 AM   #15
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Useful reading material:

The Systematic Mixing Guide - http://www.systematicproductions.com/mixing-guide.htm
I love this book.

SpectreSoundStudios' YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/user/SpectreSoundStudios
You might be familiar with the angry studio guy that hates bassists. He's got a few "how to record ____" videos that are really helpful.

Atoragon's mixing blog - http://atoragon.blogspot.ca/search/label/MIXING
Nothing amazing, but he's got decent articles on just about everything.

Slipperman's Guide To Recording Guitars - http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html
Really long and rambly, but there's a ton of good stuff in there.

Andy Sneap's forum on Ultimate Metal - http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/forums/andy-sneap/
It's kind of dead now, but there's a TON of good information in there. A lot of big names these days started out there - Joey Sturgis, Ola Englund, I think Eyal Levi.

SevenString.org - http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8
Again, a ton of great stuff, and occasionally frequented by people you've likely heard of. Ryan Bruce (Fluff), Misha from Periphery, Ola Englund again... all three used to post there regularly.

There's also a ton of stuff to be found on YouTube. A search for "how to mic metal guitar" will get you plenty of results, etc.
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Old 09-21-2016, 06:58 AM   #16
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Mic on pick sounds
Zappa had piezo pickups on the bridge of a couple of his guitars, so he could blend in clean picking and string noise. It sounds kind of like having a tinny steel string guitar playing in perfect unison with your amp sound.
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Old 09-24-2016, 06:53 PM   #17
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When I double guitars to get the wall of sound, I always mix it up....If using a similar or the same guitar, I switch pickup positions. Or I record a tele along with a humbucker guitar....this adds clarity and a more exciting,bdifferent tone,been though you are doubling. I also boost the mids around 700hz or so.
Keeps the guitars very present and takes away mud.
Lastly, if you want the aggressive sound, PLAY aggressively....attack the strings hard and it will carry over into the recording.
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Old 09-24-2016, 08:14 PM   #18
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Lastly, if you want the aggressive sound, PLAY aggressively....attack the strings hard and it will carry over into the recording.
Make sure the guitar is set up for it though. A lot of guys just set the action as low as they can without any buzz, which is great, but then when you hit the strings hard your notes get squelched out by the fret.

Of course, that has the nice side effect of compressing your playing dynamics, so a tiny bit of that can be useful.
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Old 09-26-2016, 04:16 PM   #19
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Default And again thank you!

Thank you everybody for giving all the advice! Man the reaper community is solid! I took your advice, and added compression as well as eqing this. I have only been playing music for 4 years, so dont be to rough on me. Have a listen and tell me what you think. https://soundcloud.com/nathan_viper_...uality-riffage
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Old 09-26-2016, 07:23 PM   #20
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The tone is decent but, um... there's only one track of guitar. When you say you doubled it, did you copy/paste the same performance? If so, that doesn't work. You have to actually play the part twice.
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Old 09-27-2016, 12:58 AM   #21
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The tone is decent but, um... there's only one track of guitar. When you say you doubled it, did you copy/paste the same performance? If so, that doesn't work. You have to actually play the part twice.
Yes I did just copy paste, as that what I thought "Doubling" was in the first place. Good to know that you have to play the same part twice.
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Old 09-27-2016, 04:06 AM   #22
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Yes I did just copy paste, as that what I thought "Doubling" was in the first place. Good to know that you have to play the same part twice.
Yeah man, if the left and right speaker are putting out exactly the same thing then that's mono.

Just for an experiment though, have a play around with some amp settings and EQ so that the left and right guitars are not identical.
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Old 09-27-2016, 07:01 AM   #23
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You can cheat and copy/paste the same performance, but you still need to make it sound different. Common tricks include:

- A 100% wet delay, 5-10ms. Ruins the mono compatibility of your guitar sound, but it was really popular in the 80s.

- A 100% wet chorus, set fairly gently.

- Different EQ on each side. Try taking a graphic EQ, on the left side bump each fader up or down by 1db, and then make the opposite adjustments on the right side.

- Dry guitar on one side, reverb on the other.

I think the early Van Halen albums used some of these to good effect.

All that said, there's almost no reason NOT to double your guitars properly.
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Old 09-27-2016, 07:24 AM   #24
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I think the early Van Halen albums used some of these to good effect.
Nah, they just had the guitar in the left speaker and the guitar reverb in the right speaker. Sounds awesome, but I bet most people would be too scared of it not being balanced enough these days.

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Old 09-27-2016, 08:57 AM   #25
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I'm getting good results playing each rhythm twice and hard panning them. Then use the included plugin JS Time Delay on each track at around 11 ms to taste to give a quad tracked sound. The plug in lets you easily hear the changes in sound without sliding the track around which is useful.

For lead and solo's I don't really double anything, I like to fill out the sound with delay or reverb but you have to just use your ears to see what sounds good.
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Old 11-13-2016, 02:01 AM   #26
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One other thing I just remembered, but no one added.

Silence all non-playing string areas and springs on your guitar before recording.

  • Put a piece of caulking backing rod (a bag can be bought from your local hardware store in the weather stripping section for about $5-7USD) against the head stock side of the nut, cut to the length of the width of the nut.
  • If using a guitar with a Tune-O-Matic bridge, use some foam from a pickup box if you have one. If not you can always ask the guitar tech at a music store if he has some for spare. Just use enough to put under the strings and against the body and stop tail that holds itself in place.
  • If you have a tremolo that has springs in the rear of the body like a Fender type, or Floyd Rose, do not waste money on coated springs. Use caulking backer rod again and insert the rod inside the spring. Twist the rod at one end to insert into the spring, then carefully push it into the spring while gently twisting it. Once it reaches the other end of the spring, cut it off with a razor blade. This works better than the coated type or putting a piece of sponge behind the springs. It also does not affect the mechanical action of the springs. It also holds itself in place better than a sponge behind the springs.
  • Work on your muting and more importantly your right hand damping while picking.
  • Always record a DI guitar track for every track you record. You can Stack tracks using different amplifier combinations like you can with drum sample stacks.
  • You can also use the clean DI track to add back in to regain some articulation and clarity to each amped comp if needed. Blend it into the mix until you can hear it, then pull back on the fader until it just disappears.
  • Use 4Front Piano VST on its own track using single notes that follow each note change the guitar plays. Not talking piano playing 16ths, but if you play 4 different pitch changes per measure, but picking 16ths or higher, add 4 quarter note piano note from 4Front Piano. Again blend into the mix until you hear it, then back it off until the piano just disappears in the mix. DO NOT USE ANY OTHER EFFECTS ON THIS TRACK JUST THE VSTi.
  • Use 1/2 to 3/4 less distortion on your recorded track you normally use when playing. Especially if multi tracking. IF you normally turn your Marshall preamp knob to 10 to get you your sound, roll it back to just under halfway. The digital recording adds its own form of compression from creating a square wave form from your analog wave form resulting in making clipping a bit harsher sounding on a recorded track. Multiple tracks per side sums these lower distortion tracks. Not lowering amp gain generates digitally recorded, creates more white noise which sounds like poo.
  • Increase the output volume of your amp until you can just start to see the speaker you are recording move about 1/4" total travel while playing. This is when you start mic placement. If you live where you can't turn up to this level, ask a friend or relative if they mind you recording at their place. recording quiet guitars sounds like shit plain and simple. If using sims and IRs keep in mind the IR was recorded at proper volume levels, so they were already loud at their source.
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Old 11-13-2016, 10:34 AM   #27
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[*]Use 1/2 to 3/4 less distortion on your recorded track you normally use when playing. Especially if multi tracking. IF you normally turn your Marshall preamp knob to 10 to get you your sound, roll it back to just under halfway. The digital recording adds its own form of compression from creating a square wave form from your analog wave form resulting in making clipping a bit harsher sounding on a recorded track. Multiple tracks per side sums these lower distortion tracks. Not lowering amp gain generates digitally recorded, creates more white noise which sounds like poo.
what? Not sure if I got it right ... but lowering the gain that much would turn a roaring rock/metal guitar into surfrock, no matter how many tracks you stack on top of it.
Also, a digital recording does not add any compression or square wave to your recording (if not done completely wrong). In fact it should be a cleaner recording than many analog recordings were able to achieve
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Old 11-30-2016, 06:24 AM   #28
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I like to have the bass do most of the heavy lifting too, the guitars really just add harmony and harmonic content to the foundation of the bass. However, I am led to believe that in a lot of modern metal the guitars are taking up most of the low end and the bass is just quietly adding deep lows.

As some people have intimated, if it is lacking finesse then that is probably down to not playing tight enough with yourself. You have to really be sure of every nuance in timing for it to work.

Four guitar tracks is a good one - 1 pair of beefy guitars panned L/R, with a fair amount of distortion but quite a bit less than you'd use if you were in a band practice, and 1 pair of even cleaner and more trebly guitars (possible playing in a higher register and/or some more complex harmonies than fifths and inverted fifths) panned further L/R.

When considering guitar sounds for layering, I've found it helps to think of distortion as cumulative - so the more guitars you have going, the more you need to dial back the gain (not a rule, just as a general guide).
Re guitars taking up a lot of lows. No kidding. And I confess I am guilty sometimes too. Most forget that, in a classical sense, a 6 string guitar IS a bass instrument - low e to high e are the same as a bass vocalist.

If you listen to a lot of heavy mixes you'll actually hear a fair amount of the bass guitar part being high passed and boosted in the mids. That's where the growl and attack are clearer. Both may have some in the actual lows, i.e. below 200Hz, but you are often hearing very attenuated lows.
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:22 AM   #29
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If you listen to a lot of heavy mixes you'll actually hear a fair amount of the bass guitar part being high passed and boosted in the mids. That's where the growl and attack are clearer. Both may have some in the actual lows, i.e. below 200Hz, but you are often hearing very attenuated lows.
Very first Meshuggah LP (Contradictions Collapse) has super rattly, throaty bass that's isn't bassy at all, yet very present in the music and generally glorious. I wonder how their EQ setting looked like for this, it's really freaking cool, makes up for a bizarre sounding snare for sure.
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