Old 01-25-2016, 11:51 AM   #1
kirk1701
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Default Loudness

Okay, I've got my mix finished for the radio play I've been working on. I've included a sample here.

I ran it by the director who says the level is a bit low. Now I rendered this as an MP3 through TB Barricade with the input at +9db and brickwall at -3db. I'm still uncertain how brickwall limiters increase perceived loudness without my pushing up the master fader.

How can I increase the perceived loudness without messing with the mix?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3c91tdfc0m...t%20I.mp3?dl=0
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Old 01-25-2016, 12:52 PM   #2
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The file is peaking at -12dB, not -3!
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Old 01-25-2016, 12:58 PM   #3
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The file is peaking at -12dB, not -3!
I don't understand, sorry. This is where it gets complicated for me.

I don't think I get how TB Barricade free works.

Do I simply increase the master fader to -3db? I thought the limiter did that?
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:08 PM   #4
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Set ceiling to -0,5 to -1db,
then adjust input gain to taste.
Or if you just want clean gain, set input gain just so there's not gain-reduction on the meter.
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:23 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
Set ceiling to -0,5 to -1db,
then adjust input gain to taste.
Or if you just want clean gain, set input gain just so there's not gain-reduction on the meter.
Is this in the plugin?

So the ceiling is the fader on the right of the UI?

The input is on the left?

I assumed as much. What about the release setting?
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:35 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
I don't understand, sorry. This is where it gets complicated for me.

I don't think I get how TB Barricade free works.

Do I simply increase the master fader to -3db? I thought the limiter did that?
Master fader = 0dB, Limiter ceiling/brickwall say -0.3dB (with ISP enabled).
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:39 PM   #7
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I don't work in broadcast so take this with a grain of salt, but you probably need to know what loudness level the director wants to see because there are industry standards.

Your track has:
-23.5 LUFS, Range: 6.0 LU, True peak: -11.7 dBTP

This means that your LUFS (average loudness) is pretty much in line with broadcast standards which I believe is -23 LUFS. The dynamic range is 6dB and true peak is -11.7.

This means that you could normalize your master which would bring True Peak to 0dB and LUFS to 11.8 without compromising the signal in any way (no compression or limiting and DR is still 6dB), but it's unlikely that you'd want to make it that loud due to industry standards.

So, if you can't get a good answer from your director other than to make it a bit louder, maybe just increase the gain in Barricade to +16 which will give you a 7dB boost and a true peak of 4.7 (still under the 3dB threshold you set in Barricade so Barricade won't actually be doing anything at all other than adding gain to the signal... no limiting, no loss in dynamic range).
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:41 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
So the ceiling is the fader on the right of the UI?
"Out ceiling" knob


Quote:
Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
The input is on the left?
Yes.


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Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
What about the release setting?
Leave at default or adjust to taste.
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:50 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by lachrimae View Post
I don't work in broadcast so take this with a grain of salt, but you probably need to know what loudness level the director wants to see because there are industry standards.

Your track has:
-23.5 LUFS, Range: 6.0 LU, True peak: -11.7 dBTP

This means that your LUFS (average loudness) is pretty much in line with broadcast standards which I believe is -23 LUFS. The dynamic range is 6dB and true peak is -11.7.

This means that you could normalize your master which would bring True Peak to 0dB and LUFS to 11.8 without compromising the signal in any way (no compression or limiting and DR is still 6dB), but it's unlikely that you'd want to make it that loud due to industry standards.

So, if you can't get a good answer from your director other than to make it a bit louder, maybe just increase the gain in Barricade to +16 which will give you a 7dB boost and a true peak of 4.7 (still under the 3dB threshold you set in Barricade so Barricade won't actually be doing anything at all other than adding gain to the signal... no limiting, no loss in dynamic range).
This isn't for official broadcast. It's just a community theatre group. I'm glad to hear I'm hitting broadcast standards on my own, though.

I'm just sharing this with the cast and friends. So if they don't have to crank their stereos, I'm happy.

I'll probably try the third option.
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Old 01-25-2016, 03:08 PM   #10
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Hey Kirk, I put a little RPP together that basically shows you how I handle things like this.

I used 2 Mastering tracks that I call Master and Sub-Master. As you look at the routing I think it will become clear to you.

The reason I do this is that I think it offers a good solution of to how get a good output level, yet keep it all simple. The Master has a JS master limiter which you can substitute with what ever compressor or limiter you want.

The Master is the only track going to Reaper's MASTER and the Sub-Master goes to the Master. All other tracks will go to the Sub-Master.

The idea is to basically leave Reapers MASTER and my Master track set at 0.0dB, and then adjust the Sub-Master to hit the limiter or compressor on the Master track at a desirable level.

Doing it this way you can see how if you've got a good mix going that sounds good, all you have to do is adjust the Sub-Master to hit the compressor or limiter just right. At any rate, that's my take on it.

http://stash-new.reaper.fm/26406/It%...%20Act%20I.RPP

I used your mp3 as the audio track so you will have to browse for that.
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Old 01-25-2016, 03:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hey Kirk, I put a little RPP together that basically shows you how I handle things like this.

I used 2 Mastering tracks that I call Master and Sub-Master. As you look at the routing I think it will become clear to you.

The reason I do this is that I think it offers a good solution of to how get a good output level, yet keep it all simple. The Master has a JS master limiter which you can substitute with what ever compressor or limiter you want.

The Master is the only track going to Reaper's MASTER and the Sub-Master goes to the Master. All other tracks will go to the Sub-Master.

The idea is to basically leave Reapers MASTER and my Master track set at 0.0dB, and then adjust the Sub-Master to hit the limiter or compressor on the Master track at a desirable level.

Doing it this way you can see how if you've got a good mix going that sounds good, all you have to do is adjust the Sub-Master to hit the compressor or limiter just right. At any rate, that's my take on it.

http://stash-new.reaper.fm/26406/It%...%20Act%20I.RPP

I used your mp3 as the audio track so you will have to browse for that.
Thanks Tod!
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:24 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by lachrimae View Post
Your track has:
-23.5 LUFS, Range: 6.0 LU, True peak: -11.7 dBTP

This means that your LUFS (average loudness) is pretty much in line with broadcast standards which I believe is -23 LUFS. The dynamic range is 6dB and true peak is -11.7.
Wut???

IDK what a dbTP is. I'm pretty sure that should be dbFS, but if people are making up new scales...

Oh yeah, what's an LU? Thought it was pretty much a db. In fact, you said as much right there. But then -23 + 6 is not -11.7 so who the heck knows? Have we redefined what Dynamic Range means?
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:28 AM   #13
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IDK what a dbTP
"True Peak" (oversampled peak measurement to avoid intersampling overshoots)
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:00 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Wut???

IDK what a dbTP is. I'm pretty sure that should be dbFS, but if people are making up new scales...

Oh yeah, what's an LU? Thought it was pretty much a db. In fact, you said as much right there. But then -23 + 6 is not -11.7 so who the heck knows? Have we redefined what Dynamic Range means?
LU stands for Loudness Units. LUFS is Loudness Units Full Scale. It's a logarithmic scale, which is why -20 LUFS + 2 dB = -18 LUFS.

LU and LUFS are part of the EBU R128 recommendation, which has become the broadcast standard in Europe. It is based on the ITU-1770 loudness measurement standard, which amongst other things defines a way to measure loudness in a simple and efficient way.

More information here:
https://tech.ebu.ch/loudness

And nobody's going to read it to you .
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:08 AM   #15
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Have we redefined what Dynamic Range means?
Yes to what they said, and yes to your question .

Here's the specific article on gates used to measure loudness range
https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3342.pdf

Long story short: Use a 3 second window, ignore everything under -70dB and then ignore everything -20dB under the avg. Something like that...
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:12 PM   #16
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dbTP is not a real scale. It would be a way to measure things as a fraction of the level of the maximum True Peak. That actually might be useful for some things - to divorce the dynamics of the signal from the absolute values of dbfs - but that's not how it's used in the context. What you meant was that the True Peaks reach -11.7dbFS.

I didn't read all the way through all those links because I actually understand the whole thing pretty well. None of it seems to explain how -11.7 - (-23.5) = 6, though.
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Old 01-29-2016, 09:54 AM   #17
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DPmeter is a good VST/VST3 loudness meter to get started with, if you need a meter to reference once in a while.

The tech stuff in the background is not all that significant unless you like to geek out about it (like I do).
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