Old 04-10-2015, 04:41 AM   #1
mikeypee
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Default AKG C1000s for Vocals During Live VOX+Guitar?

Hey guys - me again. I'm a step closer to figuring out my next budget mic. For reference, my goal is to be able to play guitar and sing at the same time, but improve the isolation between my vocals and guitar.

Here's the original thread we just talked about a bit: http://forums.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=158565

Now I'm looking at a possible mic to buy: The AKG C1000s. It claims to have the ability to switch from cardioid to hyper cardioid, using a "polar pattern converter". Youtube demos aren't super special but it seems okay.

My question to you: How good or bad would you say this mic is for minimizing bleed? Do you have any bare vocal tracks you've recorded with it that show the amount of bleed left over? How do you like it's overall sound?

Thanks dudes!
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Old 04-10-2015, 04:58 AM   #2
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I now wish I could delete this post, after discovering hypercardioid is worse than cardioid for isolation.
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Old 04-10-2015, 08:48 AM   #3
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For what you want to do, you want a large cap condenser side address mic, anyway, so don't sweat it.

I like AKG mics. They're durable, they tend to be low noise, and they are relatively inexpensive. You can pick up a P420 for less than $200 and it will provide you multi-pattern goodness for a long time.
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Old 04-10-2015, 09:27 AM   #4
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That's the most hated mic on Gearslutz. Got it myself and used it a ton. It should work very well for what you're planning, I've used for live work with good results. These days, I track everything with a sm57.

I bought a Rode NTK, only do discover what a terribly ugly sounding room I've got. That sort of spilled over on the AKG - less roomy than the NTK, but much more roomy than the 57... The AKG is very sensitive to placement, on stage it easily cases feedback. Other than that, I like the c 1000.
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Old 04-10-2015, 09:44 AM   #5
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Lesson 0: Don't listen to Gearslutz people, listen to your ears.
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Old 04-10-2015, 03:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil View Post
Lesson 0: Don't listen to Gearslutz people, listen to your ears.
ha nice
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Old 04-10-2015, 03:54 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil View Post
For what you want to do, you want a large cap condenser side address mic, anyway, so don't sweat it.
.
Curious as to your reasoning jerome - I'm no expert but surely a good dynamic would give much better isolation than a condenser?

fwiw I've had a couple of C1000s over the years and grew to dislike them.
(In fact I still have one and I can't even be bothered to check if it's still working or not (might have been a faulty cable).

Depending on your style and your voice you might be better off with a decent dynamic.
I think unless your serious and focused on the technical side, a "sensitive" condenser will likely bring you as much grief and trouble as it will any supposed benefit.
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Old 04-10-2015, 04:05 PM   #8
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Curious as to your reasoning jerome - I'm no expert but surely a good dynamic would give much better isolation than a condenser?
Don't confuse isolation with fidelity. A dynamic mic isn't going to pick up as much noise as a condenser because it isn't going to pick up as much of the desired frequency either. It is "quiet" as a result of that. Dynamic mics are mechanical devices and require a lot more energy in order to move the diaphragm enough to generate signal. It's why they're great for stage, or for close micing amps. But condensers are going to give you a whole lot more signal to work with in a quiet studio like environment. We want isolation as a function of the polar pattern, not as a function of lower overall fidelity.

In this case he wants to record vocal and acoustic guitar at the same time. So he takes his figure 8 condenser and positions it between the tone hole of the guitar and his face. This is where side address mics comes in handy. One lobe of the mic picks up the guitar, the other picks up his vocals. Stuff to the side is minimized. He gets good response because he has a nice condenser mic, and he gets good isolation as a result of the polar pattern.
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Old 04-10-2015, 04:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
I now wish I could delete this post, after discovering hypercardioid is worse than cardioid for isolation.
I don't think that's the case. Cardiod rejects sound from the rear, hypercardiod rejects sound from the sides. Most of your coloration is going to come from bouncing off walls and returning, off-axis, to the mic.... right? If your guitar is off-axis from your face, and you want off-axis rejected, then that would make sense. I think that the amount of sound bouncing off the wall and coming in through the back of the mic is relatively small compared to the amount coming from the sides.

The disadvantage would be having to be careful about movement, because if a mic is good at rejecting off-axis sounds then if you move your mouth-hole too far away then it gets rejected, too.

So no, I wouldn't cross it off the list. It would probably be easier to use two hypercardiods than a side address parked in front of your chest. Dunno, YMMV on that one. It sounds workable, but not ideal.
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Old 04-10-2015, 05:00 PM   #10
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Hmmm so much to consider.
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Old 04-10-2015, 08:29 PM   #11
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So no, I wouldn't cross it off the list. It would probably be easier to use two hypercardiods than a side address parked in front of your chest. Dunno, YMMV on that one. It sounds workable, but not ideal.
This is true, but my understanding of the requirement was "one mic to rule them all."

If you can get two mics, that is absolutely the way to go.
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Old 04-10-2015, 11:38 PM   #12
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Oh sorry, yes ... one mic per source. One mic for vocals, and one for acoustic guitar. I have a MXL 770 condenser for VOX right now, with an SM57 (or just a zoomh1) for acoustic. The bleed is manageable already but I'd like to get it even lower.
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Old 04-10-2015, 11:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Hmmm so much to consider.
Who said mic choice is easy?

For your situation, micing guitar and voice simultaniously, mic choice means: Use two mics! This is essential to avoid massive feedback problems.

A good choice for micing acoustic guitars on stage seems to be the Rode M5 ... at least it's worth having a look.

When you're interested in AKG's budget mic line, you need to know, that there are several models, e.g. the C3000 I have and love, that got changed several times and every change means it's a different mic, though the model name is the same.

A good example is the C3000 ... the first version was silver, than followed the first black generation, I have and which was built in Vienna. The current C3000 is built in China and seems to be much worse, than the Vienna version.

So you gotta do much homework and do some listening tests to avoid a wrong choice.
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Old 04-11-2015, 04:11 AM   #14
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Slightly OT, but......

....has anyone here considered (or actually did) booking, say, 2 or 3 hrs of studio time at a studio that has a large selection of mics for vocals?

Mics for your vocals are a very individual thing, and there seems to be no other way of auditioning them.

A lot of pro studios have cheap rates these days, and/or reduced rates for non stamdard hours etc etc.
It would be an easy going gig for any engineer, and you might get away with paying a hundred quid or so.

That hunderd quid could be a real bargain rather than buying and selling or putting up with something that doesn't relly suit you.

I realise that the preamps are important, but if you explained your situation and asked them to use as neutral as possible a setup, then at least you could get into the right ballpark - especially if you're considering spending a fair bit on a good mic.

I've read lots of cases where less expensive or mid-range mics are ideal for certain voices......so it might turn out to be your lucky day!
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Old 04-11-2015, 04:36 AM   #15
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and then you just have to take the room out of the equation.

It is all very hit and miss until your own room is halfway decently treated and laid out & your monitoring for both tracking AND mixing sussed.

And even then there are so many contributory factors.
I finally have excellent monitors and a moderately well treated tracking space & mixing room.
My mic selection is small but does what I need for my budget.

And I STILL have issues.

The sad fact is that a home studio is only ever going to be as good as it is designed and built to be.

I have heard a c11000 acquit itself well enough in a really good pro studio.
Elsewhere not so much.
It really is a whole system issue at ANY level.

And I now face the final ignominy after spending all the time effort and money of losing my hearing...
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Old 04-11-2015, 04:48 AM   #16
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Still.....it would be good to have your ideal mic already bought when auditioning houses to rent
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Old 04-20-2015, 01:05 PM   #17
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Consider using the SM57 as you are now, but use it to record a scratch vox track, while playing an electric guitar going DI.

Then record the acoustic git part listening to your guide tracks of vox and Electric.

Then record a keeper vox track.

A process and potential solution in a completely different direction.

This works for me, if I'm trying to isolate the vox and acoustic, which can not be done effectively.
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Old 04-20-2015, 01:33 PM   #18
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Quote:
That's the most hated mic on Gearslutz.
Peeps love to hate, it's a good mic you just have to use it on the things it's good at and that is different in each studio generally. I have two I purchased way back in 1998 or so, still use 'em.
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