Old 09-13-2009, 06:07 AM   #1
shemp
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Default I need some cymbal "swells"

I think that's what it's called. lol

Anyone have any recordings of a cymbal swell or 2 lying around? I'd prefer them done with sticks but one with mallets would do.

Maybe about 3-4 seconds long. 2 different types (using different cymbals) would be perfect!

Thanks!!!!
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Old 09-13-2009, 06:22 AM   #2
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You don't have any drum sampler or? You can do it easily and very realistically with AD and EZD...
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:45 AM   #3
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How do you do it in EZD and have it sound convincing? Always sounds so fake to me.
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Old 09-13-2009, 08:05 AM   #4
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Yeah, it does sound fake

I use AD mostly anyways, sounds awesome there. Only thing I'm borrowing from EZD are chinas and splashes.
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Old 09-13-2009, 08:16 AM   #5
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I only have the AD demo. Care to share a file Dragon ???
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Old 09-13-2009, 09:02 AM   #6
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What you should do is use 16th triplets or 32nd notes (depending on tempo), and using 2 cymbals alternatively (first cymbal 1 hits, then cymbal 2, etc.). Then you copy/paste those hits for the swell length... select the swell, and edit the velocity so that it has exponentially rising curve... works for AD very well.

Should look approximately something like this:

Last edited by EvilDragon; 09-13-2009 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 09-13-2009, 09:57 AM   #7
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Default Not the same but similar...

Or you could export a cymbal hit to a .ogg, drag it into, say, wavosaur and reverse it. Then export and import it back into REAPER.
It sounds like how "Are you experienced?" Starts out.
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:07 AM   #8
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pattonfreak:

you can do that in Reaper too. even w/o creating a new file on the HDD

"toggle take reverse" or "reverse items to new take"
(the latter writes a new file to the HDD, tho)
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:08 AM   #9
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I'm thinking you mean building a swell, with multiple hits like a drummer would, rather than reversing the decay like Hendrix did, I dunno though.

If I'm think the missing ingredient to the natural sound here may be to soften the hit my using a slow attack. It will make the stick sound disappear.

It doesn't really matter what you use. If you don't have EZ or AD, you can do the same thing with shortcircuit. Come to think of it I don't know if you can do that in EZ, but you can in AD, and this is how

Look at the Volume attack slope - and combine this with EvilDragon's suggestion

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Old 09-13-2009, 10:12 AM   #10
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There are a few rolls available here (among lots of other nice stuff):
http://www.legaltorrents.com/torrent...mpling-project
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:13 AM   #11
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slow attack =/= realistic cymbal swell, imHo.


nor the faked MIDI note seq, as EvilDragon suggested. all workarounds could work - but none is close to the real swell sample.

i dont dare to imagine how much polyphony these "MIDI" swells need.. and if you use EZ/AD.. multichannel/multisamples triggered @ every note, played out full lenght.. tooooooo much polyphony used for nothing.


imHo.


(posted some real swell samples to shemp)
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:15 AM   #12
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yeah, I've played with the reverse and it sounds more like an effect (although if I spent some time on it I could probable get it to sounds more natural).

thanks EvilDragon and Tedwood for your descriptive techniques. I'll give this a try sometime today hopefully!

Remember the good old days when you actually recorded the sounds you wanted instead of trying to re-produce them in software???
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:27 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
i dont dare to imagine how much polyphony these "MIDI" swells need.. and if you use EZ/AD.. multichannel/multisamples triggered @ every note, played out full length.. tooooooo much polyphony used for nothing.
I don't have any issues with polyphony of those swells on my computer And it can sound fairly articulate.
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I don't have any issues with polyphony of those swells on my computer And it can sound fairly articulate.
maybe the cymbals are chopped earlier then? i still think its a massive overkill for a simple swell that you can have from a single stereo (or even multichannel) sample. and its only fairly accurate - as you wrote

youre right tho, this is how a real drummer "triggers" the swell..
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
maybe the cymbals are chopped earlier then? i still think its a massive overkill for a simple swell that you can have from a single stereo (or even multichannel) sample. and its only fairly accurate - as you wrote

youre right tho, this is how a real drummer "triggers" the swell..
No, it doesn't happen BBB, I tried at 64T with AD and it's smooth as silk. AD is very well coded, I have an AMDx2 5600 and 2 Gig of ram, and I can't make AD glitch.

Having said that this was one track in isolation, if polyphony problems did arise these things could easily be rendered to audio to a single item - I think you would do that anyway surely?

In addition I would say the smooth build EvilDragon suggested may be too even, a real drummer would accent in places, this might be accomplished by having the same sample without the slow attack on every 3rd or 6th beat at a louder volume, that's just for starters, you have to think like a drummer - but it should be entirely possible to make a believable sample that fiots you music in less time than it takes you to find one that was custom made for the job
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Old 09-13-2009, 11:14 AM   #16
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Yeah, I was doing a more generalized approach. I like this because you can do x bar long swells and you can articulate it dynamically just by drawing velocity (if only we could draw it as an automatable envelope in Reaper yet!) and accentuating when needed. It is MUCH more flexible than an actual swell recording, which is one off, basically.
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Old 09-13-2009, 12:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yeah, I was doing a more generalized approach. I like this because you can do x bar long swells and you can articulate it dynamically just by drawing velocity (if only we could draw it as an automatable envelope in Reaper yet!) and accentuating when needed. It is MUCH more flexible than an actual swell recording, which is one off, basically.
Holy crap, this works great (in AD)! With Tedwoods's volume suggestion it's almost perfect.

This along with Beatbybit's samples, I'm all set!

Thanks guys!
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Old 09-13-2009, 12:47 PM   #18
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Toldya, hehe! :P
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Old 09-13-2009, 02:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Holy crap, this works great (in AD)! With Tedwoods's volume suggestion it's almost perfect.

This along with Beatbybit's samples, I'm all set!

Thanks guys!
Waddaya mean almost!?

haha
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Old 09-13-2009, 03:50 PM   #20
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You can also try http://free-loops.com/
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Old 09-13-2009, 04:06 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedwood View Post
..it should be entirely possible to make a believable sample that fiots you music in less time than it takes you to find one that was custom made for the job
i have some of these samples saved as Track Templates /w (multitaked) media.
(snap offset set to the 'musical peak' of the sample)

1 sec. to load - and a few seconds to try a few takes (variations, new samples)


its fast enough for me.
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Old 09-13-2009, 04:58 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
i have some of these samples saved as Track Templates /w (multitaked) media.
(snap offset set to the 'musical peak' of the sample)

1 sec. to load - and a few seconds to try a few takes (variations, new samples)


its fast enough for me.
Is that an audio sample then BBB?

Have you overlooked the meaning of my post then? That is if you customise your own piece to suit the piece you are writing you have total control and flexibility before you commit it to an audio sample.

Of course I recognize it only takes a second to load a template, but my point was about finding the sound you want for the track. How long does that take?

I always have an idea in my mind that no matter where I look I can't find that sound - unless i make it myself
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Old 09-13-2009, 05:01 PM   #23
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here is what I did using the EvilDragon/Tedwood techniques in the AD demo with 3 crashes, panned and tuned slightly different. Pretty convincing

http://stash.reaper.fm/3686/swells.mp3
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Old 09-13-2009, 05:05 PM   #24
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as i wrote, it takes a few seconds to try the different samples in the multitaked Item, in the song context. (switch to prev/next take, or choose one in Lanes ON mode)
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Old 09-13-2009, 05:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
as i wrote, it takes a few seconds to try the different samples in the multitaked Item, in the song context. (switch to prev/next take, or choose one in Lanes ON mode)
Yeah that's true BBB, but if they don't work it's a few seconds wasted. I can't actually try any of this stuff unless I download it first. Then I have to remember where I put it and whether it is remotely suited to the job I am doing. A few seconds you say, but I have thousands of samples - 99.99 of them never get used


Sounds good shemp, I thought you meant a slower build up with a few accents in it, but it proves the technique works.

Will we get to hear this in context I wonder?
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Old 09-13-2009, 05:22 PM   #26
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different workflows, Tedwood.

i hate MIDI, i dont own EZ/AD, but have a few samples collected over the years.

there is one problem w/the swell samples i sent to shemp, tho. i sent him only the swell samples - but not the oneshot crashes - so he cant match the swell samples with his existing oneshot crashes.


he seemed to like the samples, tho.


as i wrote before, all your "workarounds" can work - but they dont come close to the real swell samples - FOR ME. i forgot to write "FOR ME" in that post.

sorry for that.
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Old 09-13-2009, 05:38 PM   #27
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a tip for cymbal swell mixing:

usually they have too much dynamics in the mix context, but its easy to solve using 'Take Vol. Envelope', for eg.
i dont use a compressor for that. every take can have its own Vol Automation, and its even WYSIWYG. i love it.

it can be done w/the MIDI way too - but imo that takes a bit more time.


ignore this post if nothing new in it.
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Old 09-13-2009, 06:19 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedwood View Post
Sounds good shemp, I thought you meant a slower build up with a few accents in it, but it proves the technique works.

Will we get to hear this in context I wonder?
Yes, I need to get my singer and bass player to do their parts. It'll be a week or so ....
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Old 09-14-2009, 02:22 AM   #29
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Those swells sound MIGHTY fine to me.

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Old 09-14-2009, 06:37 AM   #30
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aww thanks. You're not so Evil after all... LOL

Yes, adjusting the volume attack per Tedwood is really what makes it convincing. Maybe that's why it can't be done in EZD?? (I don't have EZD so I can't check).
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Old 09-14-2009, 06:52 AM   #31
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Yeah, EZD doesn't have all the onboard processing like AD has.


Which is why AD is better overall.
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:45 AM   #32
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The other thing you can do, if you want the same cymbal, and your program allows you to do this is load the same sample to another pad. The problem you're having, I'm guessing, is with retriggering the same sound so that you don't have the overlap. The graph that Evil Dragon shows the swell in velocity. The only thing I'd add is don't make it an angle, some hits are going to be louder than others naturally. The general shape should be an angle, but some of the velocity hits should fall outside the ramp. If you have two pads with two different MIDI numbers hitting the same sample, you'll get the overlap you're looking for.
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:30 AM   #33
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Steve,

i think this is what i was trying to write about.. but they say theres no problem w/the tails/overlaps, etc..


the real crash swell =/= a bunch of digitally summed multi-triggered oneshots - i still believe that. the real swell samples sound way less machine-like, and their tails are different too.


sure, the fact i dont like the MIDI way wont stop others using faked swells and so.

everyone to his own.




* the same theory goes to snare rolls, and ride cymbal "loops" for eg. i never heard a really-real-sounding fill from EZ/AD and co so far. nunaces make a difference for me.
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Old 10-01-2009, 09:18 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedwood View Post

Will we get to hear this in context I wonder?
yes, here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...381#post381381

thank you all!
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