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10-08-2009, 10:04 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,785
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Training Your Voice - Greatest Advice Ever
This was taken from a thread on mp3.com a decade ago. The poster, Pamela Zero, is a unique artist.
http://www.discord-aggregate.com/pamela/
Here was her advice, given to me at the time:
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Keith- DL'd Winter- flashed on Leonard Cohen on the first listen to this- same intimate edge to your voice and melodic ending drops.
Have to mention, this is a very simple, powerful song and I'm quite glad you didn't toss it. Are you planning on re-recording this? If not, how would you feel about me using it? Please be brutally honest here- as you know my arrangements are intense and I'd probably wind up turning this inside out (hearing viola and vocal counterpoint at the moment). Let me know what your plans are for the song- I'd love to use it if you're planning on shelving it.
Anyway, back to the vocals- mentioned the intimate quality of your voice already- very nice. Your consonants are good- you're hitting the letters fully- good job.
Next steps- placement and range. The pitch misses are probably due to range limitations- you need to expand your range so that when you go for the higher notes, they are easy and effortless rather than a stretch that pulls your pitch down and changes your vocal tone. A few exercises follow- do them daily and you should see results in about a month. Range is one of the easy things to create change in.
OK- exercise one- WARM UP your voice. Please don't skip this- if you don't warm up your voice and start pushing on your range, you can do some serious damage to your vocal cords and throat muscles. So take the time to warm up- should take you 10 minutes to get fully warmed up. Here's the warm up from Phil's lesson-
1. Warm ups: Always warm up your voice. Always. (yes- always) It makes a massive difference in your pitch and range. Get a pitch pipe- one of the round ones that runs a full scale- find one that starts on C if you can- if not, go with G.
Pick a note and blow it- then sing up note by note as high as you can from that note. Be gentle with your voice at first- now is not the time to stretch your range, but rather to wake up your voice. Pick another note, blow it, sing down note by note as low as you can. Alternate high and low-10 times each.
Get a book and read 3 paragraphs from it out loud - over enuciate every word to the point of ridiculousness. Involve your entire face- yes, you probably want to do this alone or with another voice student.
Read the entire set of 3 paragraphs 3 times.
Get your body involved- touch your toes, swing your arms, twist your torso, roll your shoulders, roll your head around. Singing is a full body sport- if you really want to have a great lesson, do a LIGHT workout beforehand.
OK- Keith- now that you're warmed up, we'll push your range a bit...
2. Range Extension: Get the dreaded pitch pipe out and stand comfortably, arms at sides.
Blow a G
Starting on G, sing note by note DOWN as low as you can sing on a "la".
Once you get to the lowest note you can sing, take a deep breath, relax your body, and sing the lowest note again on an "ah".
Blow an A
Starting on A, sing note by note DOWN as low as you can sing on a "la".
Once you get to the lowest note you can sing, take a deep breath, relax your body, and sing the lowest note again on an "ah".
Work your way up the pitch pipe until you cannot hit the initial note played on the pitch pipe. When that happens...
Blow a C on the pitch pipe
Starting on C, sing note by note UP as high as you can sing on a "la".
Once you get to the highest note you can sing, take a deep breath, relax your body, and sing the lowest note again on an "eee".
Blow a D on the pitch pipe
Starting on D, sing note by note UP as high as you can sing on a "la".
Once you get to the highest note you can sing, take a deep breath, relax your body, and sing the lowest note again on an "eee".
Work your way up the pitch pipe until you cannot hit the initial note played on the pitch pipe.
I need to stress here that the thing that will expand your range is the gentle pressure of your attention to the area that you stop being able to sing- not the intensity with which you attack that area. The more consistent you are with the exercises, the faster this will go- but limit them to once a day so your voice has a chance to bounce back and make changes. Please don't push hard on your voice doing this- it will change all by itself a lot faster if you are gentle.
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10-08-2009, 10:05 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,785
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OK- placement. Right now, there is a nasal quality to your singing (relax- most folks are not even hearing it, if they do, they don't notice it as something to work on- relax) that's caused by where you are "placing" your voice when you sing. You're plugging your nose internally to hit the higher notes. We need to change where you are picturing your voice.
Placement is a wonderful thing- it enables you to utilize tone and timbre that you otherwise have no access to. What on earth am I talking about you ask. Well, when you sing, where is the sound coming out from when you think about it? Your mouth? Probably not- most people think of the sound coming out around the bridge of their nose. Placement is a mental image of where the energy or intent of the sound you are making is coming from. By changing the image in your head, you make tiny, subconcious changes in your facial muscles and actually change the sound you are making. Don't believe me? Check out Ghosts (especially the end) at http://www.discord-aggregate.com/pam...ume/ghosts.mp3 (egads! non MP3 site) and compare it to the voice at the end of Cosmos off of www.mp3.com/pamelazero I did some massive placement work between these two pieces. What you want to do is get your placement to shift up off the bridge of your nose and up into your forehead. Later grasshopper you can get it out the top of your head and turn into a lunatic like me who has had to move her brain aside in order to have a clear space for her voice to shoot out of. Odd, I know. Effective, absolutely.
So- some placement exercises. Yes, I'll tell you now- do these by yourself. Bathrooms are good for this.
3. Placement-imaging: Stand comfortably, arms at sides.
Close your eyes.
Tilt the top of your head forward just a bit- enough to get the sense of leading with your forehead.
Sing a note on an "ah" with your eyes still closed.
Picture the sound coming out of the bridge of your nose, then move it up to out of your forehead. Let your face, nose, mouth make whatever movements they want to.
Once it is in your forehead, open your eyes. Try to hold on to the placement as you open your eyes.
Do this at least 20 times a day- more if you want- you can sing the note lightly.
4. Placement- release: OK- to let go of the high note=nasal thing- easy to do.
Stand comfortably, arms at sides.
Sing a note on an "ah"- any note
As you sing it, internally plug your nose.
Unplug your nose.
Plug it, unplug it- you get the idea.
You want to have a grasp of what it feels like to have your nose plugged when you sing. After you get that down- just keep checking as you're singing- when you find your nose plugged, unplug is on the next consonant you sing. As you unplug it, aim your placement up higher- out your forehead.
That should do it for now- you should start seeing results pretty fast, as your next steps are all fairly quick ones. Let me know how it goes- and hey- let me know about the song.
Chuck- you're next.
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10-08-2009, 10:05 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,785
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OK- vocal technique stuff- get a pitchpipe- one of the round ones that runs a full scale- find one that starts on C if you can- if not, go with G. Daily- yep- every day- do the following 3 times.
Blow the note C.
Sing the note you just blew.
Say the word C.
Blow the note D.
Sing the note you just blew.
Say the word D.
Keep going until you go all the way around the pitchpipe. You're training your subconcious here- the trick is daily repetition- don't worry if the note you are singing does not seem to be the same as the one you blew- this is going to take some time- we're talking 6 months to a year if you do it every day. Yes it's worth it. The goal is for your ear to hear, your voice to sing, your brain to acknowledge all the same sound. Stick with it. If you don't have a natural knack for pitch, then you plant it in your subconcious via repetition- you wind up being able to sing whatever you want to either way.
Your "s" is great- can you work a bit on the t's and d's? Run the alphabet a few times a day if you can - overenuciating it and get to know the sounds of each letter. There are different parts to the sound of most letters- check it out- aaaayyyyyeeeeee etc. Be sure you are including every sound of each letter when you run the alphabet- this will actually transfer over into your speech and singing without you having to do much else.
All I can think of now- if anything else shows up I'll post it. Thanks for the song- had a blast with it.
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Phrasing: Noticing a tendency to let support slip about 3/4 of the way through the phrases- result is a pitch slide- very apparent near the end of phrases (example- first chorus "hand that guides you through"-by "through", the pitch is flat.) I don't think this is a support issue- rather it's more about where the singer's attention is. The attention needs to shift to completing the phrase. Basic phrasing- each set of words that naturally fall together is a phrase- for example "You still hold on to the hand that guides you through" would be a phrase. You could break it up into 2 phrases if you want to- works both ways. OK- each phrase has a shape to it- some arc up in the middle, some peak at the end, others right up front. The easiest way to find the peak is to find either the most important word in the phrase or the most exciting musical moment and then work the phrase around that. Why is this important you ask? Because once you phrase out your music, you know when to breath, how much breath to use over what period of time, when and what words to push, and in this case, you have someplace to go with your voice on each line. Every word, every note shift suddenly is a part of a whole, rather than just singing the song one word at a time, you are singing these arcing lines of intensity and release and dragging your listener along with you. Great stuff. Anyway- in this song, the end of the phrases lack attention, and the pitch is shifting. Basic phrasing will fix this- it forces you to pay attention to each word and note you are singing, including the end. Wanna get really crazy- make an arc of the entire song and adjust your phrases to reflect the arc of the whole song- check out "Columbine" in my stuff if you want to hear phrasing taken way too far...
Attack & Release- the diction is good in the song- but it can go to a new level. I actually do need the written lyrics to get some of the words- and there is enough vocal flexibility in this voice to not make that necessary. So, attack and release- on a phrase level, you want to make sure that each sound in the first letter (see Josh above if not clear)of your first and last word in each phrase is crystal clear. If you can, play a bit in studio and listen as you warm up or between takes to your own diction- see if you can hear every sound within the first and last letters of every word. It means making some faces as you're recording. Kick those T's, exaggerate the dipthong on Y's, use a pop filter.
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Your pitch is sliding around for two reasons-one is because you are not actually hearing what you are singing and the other is that there is not enough breath to sustain the notes. What I'll do is give you the details of the exercises and then combine them into a lesson summary below at the bottom. So let's get started...
1. Warm ups: Always warm up your voice. Always. (yes- always) It makes a massive difference in your pitch and range. Get a pitch pipe- one of the round ones that runs a full scale- find one that starts on C if you can- if not, go with G.
Pick a note and blow it- then sing up note by note as high as you can from that note. Be gentle with your voice at first- now is not the time to stretch your range, but rather to wake up your voice. Pick another note, blow it, sing down note by note as low as you can. Alternate high and low-10 times each.
Get a book and read 3 paragraphs from it out loud - over enuciate every word to the point of ridiculousness. Involve your entire face- yes, you probably want to do this alone or with another voice student.
Read the entire set of 3 paragraphs 3 times.
Get your body involved- touch your toes, swing your arms, twist your torso, roll your shoulders, roll your head around. Singing is a full body sport- if you really want to have a great lesson, do a LIGHT workout beforehand.
2. Pitch- Get a tape recorder going- you're going to tape this, OK? Start recording.
Stand up straight and relaxed, arms at sides and sing a note- use a "la". Any note will do. As you sing the note, notice the note you are singing. I know that sounds goofy, but do it. Hold the note for 5 seconds. When you are done, wait a second and then sing the same note again. Repeat this 10 times- trying to vary the first note you sing. If you keep losing track of what number you are on, then sing the number you are on rather than "la". After you've done 10, stop, and listen to the tape. How close were you on the second notes? Let me know if there was a drastic difference each time and I'll give you a stronger exercise- this one done daily will train you to listen as you sing automatically and pull your pitch up quite a bit. Do three sets of 10.
OK- next exercise - pulled from an earlier post to Josh. Grab that pitch pipe again.
Blow the note C.
Sing the note you just blew.
Say the word C.
Blow the note D.
Sing the note you just blew.
Say the word D.
Keep going until you go all the way around the pitchpipe. You're training your subconcious here- the trick is daily repetition. Yes it's worth it. The goal is for your ear to hear, your voice to sing, your brain to acknowledge all the same sound.
3. Support- Oh, this one is the most fun. First of all, find that legendary diaphram that singers are always babbling about. If you don't know yet how to find it, or how to tense it- here's the scoop. If you do know, then skip to the actual exercises below. OK, to find your diaphram and tense it- do the following. Stand up - arms at sides. Take a deep breath in and hold it. Bend forward from the waist, let your arms dangle. Breath out all the way- with your breath still out, stand up straight again. Standing up straight, with your breath still out, try to breath out even more. Each time you try to breath out more, that feeling sort of pressing/pulling at the upper edge of your tummy is your diaphram. Breath normally. (gasp). Repeat this exercise until you can tense your diaphram at will. Remember, it's not your stomach- it's above it and just inside the bottom of your rib cage. Once you've got this part down (usually takes a day or so)then start in on the exercises.
First exercise- as often as you can, as many times during the day as you can remember, tense your diaphram and breath in with it tensed. Yes, it's hard. Keep it tensed and breath out. Breath in and out with your diaphram tensed as many times a day as you can remember to. During your daily life, do it. Don't worry about attaching this to making sounds and singing- just this is enough for now. You're building a muscle up.
Next exercise- the notorious Ha's. Tense your diaphram, breath in, breath out (diaphram still tensed) with a loud Ha about 3 seconds long. Once done, as quickly as you can, breath in with your diaphram tensed and breath out again with a Ha. Do this 10 times. Don't hyperventilate, OK? You want to trigger your diaphram to tense up when you breath in.
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10-08-2009, 10:06 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,785
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OK- lesson summary
1. Wake up your body
2. Warm up your voice
3. Support Exercises
4. Pitch Exercise
If you can, do a few stretches after your lesson and let yourself wind down.
When you do the recording- please try to do the following:
1. Warm up your voice
2. Make sure that when you do your vocal track you hear yourself first and foremost in your headphone mix. Do the vocal to just piano if you can.
3. Do the best takes you can and then punch in where you need to.
4. Strong suggestion- do not finalize any vocal track unless you have listened to it for at least a week. Stuff shows up that you can't hear in studio.
5. If you feel like you're not going to get the vocal you want, get someone to sing the song for you on a scratch vocal and listen to that while you record.
6. Toss out all thoughts of technique, support, pitch etc. If you do the exercises fiercely and daily, what you need will be in your subconcious already.
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OK- down the pop road. The vocal decorations you are doing are standard pop- the affected vibratto, the breathy starts, the mouth open just enough to get the sound out, the pitch slide combined with a slight crescendo. When you go up for the second "Show me how to touch you..." you're in your upper range and your vocal decorations change substantially. Most of the intimacy that you have spent the first part of the song building disappears and the listener is no longer standing a foot away from you as you sing only to them- suddenly they are watching you from a distance. I know that you are leaning more on the notes when you're up there to create some intensity, but you can lean on them and still keep the listener a foot away from you. If you want to keep the intimacy going through the song, you'll need to be able to be relaxed enough to keep the decorations up- which means getting your upper register as easy to sing as your lower. See the range extension exercises in one of the posts above. Warm up, do the extension exercises, then trust your instincts when you record and the decorations will probably just show up on their own. Most pop singers have learned to sing by listening to pop music- and most of the styles and decorations they use are habit and quite reliable.
To work on your break - ah- yes, what is a break. You have 3 separate voices - lower, upper and flute/falsetto. Where the voices meet (or usually don't meet) is where your breaks are- you have 2. To find them, start on the lowest note you can sing and sing up. When it starts getting tough to sing, notice the note. Thats the start of your break. At some point, you will switch to your upper voice- you can feel it- the pressure on the upper back of your mouth will disappear and your placement will move up. Keep singing up and you'll hit your flute voice- this break is tougher to spot- usually can tell by the tone change in what you are singing. To smooth your breaks, do scales that have the middle note of the scale where your break starts. Run the scales, up and down, 10 times a day, every day, 30 days, you'll smooth your break in no time.
As far as expanding beyond pop- you definitely have the pitch and vocal strength for it as well as a wonderful ability to interpret and emote. Start with the support and range exercises detailed in one of the posts above and add in the break exercise as well. If you can, e-mail me in 45 days at (address removed) and update me- I'll give you next steps based on how you're doing then.
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Stand, arms at sides, and start singing any note. On a "la", sing up note by note until you hit the highest note you can sing comfortably. Stop- take a breath, sing the high note again as clearly as you can on an "eee". Pretend you are a bell, an angel, clear water, whatever. Once you have the clear tone on the "eee", as you sing the note, shift the sound back to an "ah"- try to keep the clear tone going even on the "ah". Do this 5 times and stop- it may start to get really fun and you may want to keep doing it, but 5 times is plenty to start with and you run the risk of getting hoarse if you over do it. If you find yourself getting hoarse doing 5, drop to 3.
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Larynx Exercise:
Stand comfortably. Put one hand up to your throat and say la, la, la as you find the spot on the front of your throat that is buzzing the most when you speak. This is also the spot that it is nearly unbearable to touch. Gently put your finger on top of this spot. Gently. This is your larynx.
With your finger on your larynx, pretend to yawn. Wheee! It dropped, eh? That's it. That's what it means to drop your larynx. Yawn 10 times (by the end of 10, you'll probably actually be yawning for real).
OK, with your finger on your larynx, yawn again, but this time when you stop yawning, try to keep your larynx down as long as you can. Do this 5 times- don't push it, OK?
When you are trying to keep your larynx down, run throught the following checklist.
Relax the back of your tongue.
If your chin has dropped, raise it.
Relax your neck and shoulders.
I remember learning how to do this and finding that I was unconciously standing one foot on top of the other as I was trying to keep my larynx down- as if my feet had anything to do with it.
Again- don't push this. Your larynx is fragile especially if untrained. Once you can drop your larynx and hold it down at will, find someone to work with you locally. You'll thank yourself 10 years from now when you still have your voice.
So, support, diction if you want to, larynx exercises and get some assistance from a live person once you get the larynx down.
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And thus ends the advice.
Last edited by Petersko; 10-08-2009 at 10:14 PM.
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10-13-2009, 06:49 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,763
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Hey, this is GREAT advice, thanks for posting this
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10-14-2009, 07:13 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth R.
Hey, this is GREAT advice, thanks for posting this
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+1
I hadn't heard the suggestion about repeating the notes of the scale to improve pitching before - I always assumed it was about diaphragm strength and relaxing head muscles, but I think she has a point.
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01-04-2010, 06:43 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9
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It is great to see a thread about singing, it has brightened my day.
My reason for learning about REAPER was actually as an adjunct to my being a vocalist. And really it has helped me improve in many ways. Beyond getting to hear yourself sing the way other people here you, so-called "outer hearing" and getting to see how to make your singing managable in the mix. A person could also rig a mic and hit record and see how they are doing pitch-wise in the ReaTune Manual Correction Window. And of course if it doesn't turn out to well, they can also just correct it while they are there..... (just kidding about that last part! )
Thank you for the thread.
Last edited by Dead Vocalist; 01-04-2010 at 06:56 PM.
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01-04-2010, 06:59 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,019
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There are countless CDs and probably free mp3s of voice exercises out there, staged for different ranges (which are easy to figure out once you try them-- the one(s) you can sing is your range).
They are not expensive and the basic ones are mostly all the same. They give a couple of simple warm-ups, then some basic scales, then intervals, then scale/interval combinations. Good ones will have you do each of these in a couple of different vocal sounds, e.g. singing "EEEE", then "AAAH", then "EEEYUUU" or "EYOO" or whatever.
In about ten minutes they'll run your voice through all the paces and typically improve your range by a couple of notes for the rest of the day, as well as improving pitch, both immediately and incrementally over the long term.
Most voice teachers give out such a recording as a matter of course, and every singer should have one, and should do the exercises in the car or whatever, especially before a gig or a recording session.
You can do it yourself with a pitch pipe, but that requires that you have accurate scale and interval sense to start with. And recordings are probably easier and more convenient than a pitch pipe these days.
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01-05-2010, 08:31 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9
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Well Yep brings up a good point,
There are many many vocal pedagogies out there. Many are great ways to train, some are not. I will try to list some of the major ways objectively then will share some of my personal biases at the end.
And let me say upfront that I am not a professional vocalist, just a dedicated amateur, and a lifelong learner who has at least tried to learn from a variety of different sources.
Much of the voice training people can get is from one of three types of instruction: academic schools, unaffiliated voice teachers, or Proprietary (commercial) pedagogies (ways of learning singing).
Academic schools are either part of a college or university. In the United States this means that the training is very heavily weighted towards either the classical (Opera) aesthetic, and techniques for producing it, or Musical theater. This training is fairly variable from institution to institution. Training to sing classically is often (and incorrectly) referred to as “Bel Canto” though this term has several distinct and specific meanings other than general classical voice training.
A second source is from unaffiliated voice teachers, these can be excellent, or not. Like finding a good doctor or auto mechanic, figuring out what you are getting for your money can be quite a challenge.
And the third source, and one where you have a better idea what you are going to get, are proprietary vocal training methods. There are many but there are four I will mention in detail here as some of the most prevalent.
Some of the most popular ones in the United States include two versions of Speech Level Singing.
One, the standard variant created by Seth Rigs called…wait for it….. Speech Level Singing (SLS). And the second, Singing Success (SS), created by Brett Manning, which is based on SLS but accepts more non-speech level concepts. The one of these two that I am most familiar with is SS. They have extensive CD based training, online videos and Skype based lessons. SS seems to be quite popular currently, and the CD based training has gotten fairly good reviews. They do however tend to train singers to focus on a particular pop vocal aesthetic using something they call “mixed voice.” They also tend to recommend against very powerful singing styles (those that use high degrees of support and produce very loud singing). This is not good or bad but is a characteristic. SS at least spends some time on ways to expand voical range.
Two very scientifically based methods are the older Estill Vocal Technique (EVT), and the more modern Complete Vocal Technique (CVT). Interestingly these both seem to be more prevalent in Europe though EVT was developed in the USA. They both teach people to sing with a good deal more variety than SLS, or SS. EVT’s claim to fame is teaching people to sing using “Belt Quality” which seems focused on a sound that is very important in musical theater. EVT is typically taught in group seminars at least initially. Instructors may also use it to support what they are teaching in studios as well. No official books are available without participating in the seminars however, the book “Singing and the Actor” is based on EVT.
CVT teaches even more acceptable ways to sing than EVT and was created in Denmark. Their academy is now said to be the second largest voice academy in Europe. The method is based on their “Complete Vocal Technique” book and sound library. They also have multiple different courses and academies available in Europe but I have been unable to find any certified instructors in the USA so far. Like SS they have Skype lessons available.
Better singers than I will ever be have been developed by each and any the above ways of learning to sing, so they can all be effective. My personal bias after having studied under many of these pedagogues is that SS is pretty good for beginners and can really help develop range, and CVT is amazing for more advanced singers that want something other than the standard “pop” sound. I have purchased and used SS’s basic system and their advanced Mastering Mix Series and found them helpful. SS helped me find my whistle register(a way to sing very high) which really amazed me (though it isn't all that useful) but the aesthetic that they focus on is not really the sound I was hoping to find for myself. I am currently a CVT student and have purchased their basic book and am participating in Skype based voice training.
I hope this is helpful.
Last edited by Dead Vocalist; 01-05-2010 at 08:41 AM.
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01-16-2010, 09:24 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Vocalist
I hope this is helpful.
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It is. Thanks for the overview. Do you have an idea which of those groups Billy Purnell's "Ultimate Voice Training for Singers" falls into? I bought these cds a while ago, and found them extremely effective for broadening my range and improving my accuracy--as long as I stuck with them.
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01-20-2010, 09:26 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flatpickle
Do you have an idea which of those groups Billy Purnell's "Ultimate Voice Training for Singers" falls into?
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Hi Flatpickle,
I am glad you thought that the summary was helpful!
In regard to Billy Purnell's "Ultimate Voice Training for Singers", I have not used the program personally but my understanding is that it is a Speech Level Singing based course.
And certainly if it helped you improve then it was a good choice.
I am told by others that Billy recommends "Singing for the Stars," by Seth Riggs for further study, which would certainly support his courses orientation towards Speech Level Singing (Seth Riggs was SLS’s founder).
Do you recall if Seth’s book is recommended in the course?
Thanks so much.
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01-21-2010, 06:32 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 82
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I don't recall Billy mentioning the Riggs course, but it's been a while since I've read the book that came with the cds. It sounds like you're right on the money about it being Speech Level Singing--now that I read your earlier post again, I remembered the emphasis on mixed voice and pop applicability.
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02-03-2010, 05:15 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 47
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This is such an awesome thread!
Favourited!
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02-06-2010, 09:51 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3,293
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