Old 12-07-2009, 05:50 PM   #1
Basil
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Default Latency Problems when using direct monitoring

Hi,
I'm using a Edirol UA-25 Audio MIDI USB Interface, for recording vocals and when I use the direct monitoring I get a delay double effect without having any FX even turned on.

The Computer I use is Win XP Hm, 1.8 GHZ, 1024MB Ram 1600MHZ system bus

Right now I have device setting in Reaper set at

Audio System : Direct Sound

The Input and Output are set for the Edirol UA-25 Interface

Sample format: 24 bit

Samplerate: 44100hz

Buffer 8 X 1040 samples

Latency: 188ms

After reading through the forum 188ms latency is very high and I also understand by changing the buffer and samples rate the latency rate changes which will help with direct monitor problem.

What are good buffer and sample setting for recording vocals so I can have the smallest latency possible with causing clicks or any recording problems?

Also will changing the Sample format to 16 bit help?

Thanks in advance for any help or other tips on this subject.

Basil
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:11 PM   #2
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Your interface comes with low latency ASIO drivers. Select them in the preferences instead of DirectSound and try how low you can set the ASIO buffers without getting problems. At any rate that'll be faster than 188ms.
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:50 PM   #3
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Ok ...I just went to my audio settings and chose ASIO Driver and picked the one for the Edirol UA-25interface. Clicked on the default settings and clicked ok and than I get a Reaper Error message.

Ther was an error while opening your audio hardware:
Error initalizing ASIO drive
Would you like to view your audio device configuration?



Hum...Don't know what to do next?

Last edited by Basil; 12-07-2009 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 12-08-2009, 01:25 AM   #4
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Basil, Steindork (as always) is right that you should try to get your ASIO set up sorted and hopefully he or someone else will come in and help with the error message, but in the meantime if you still want to use direct monitoring without having the delay effect then you just need to turn off input monitoring on the track you are recording.
The delay effect is caused by you hearing the direct monitoring sound closely followed by the Reaper input monitoring sound with added latency. It follows that switching off input monitoring will let you just hear the no-latency direct monitoring sound.
Hope that makes sense and good luck with the ASIO issues.

I don't know how the buffer setting work on the edirol. I would open the audio device configuration and set the buffer to 1024 if you can and then see if that works. Then if it does , work down through the buffer sizes to get as low as you can without it falling over. Remember that the higher track and plug in count in your project the higher you will need the buffer to be to avoid drop outs and the like. That is why direct monitoring is so useful. You can have a stable high buffer setting and still monitor what you are recording without latency.
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Old 12-08-2009, 01:26 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil View Post
Ther was an error while opening your audio hardware:
Error initalizing ASIO drive
Would you like to view your audio device configuration?
Either another application has taken hold of the driver, or the installation went wrong. Close all other apps, and try again. If that doesn't work, try re-installing the driver.
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Old 12-08-2009, 06:40 AM   #6
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@spikemullings
I've been using this set up for awhile, but never used the direct monitoring feature. IE....I've been recoring vocals dry now I'd like to add some reverb and a few other FX while I track and the only way to hear this is through direct monitoring. So I do understand the concept....Thanks

I'll set the buffer samples to 1024 and try lowering the size and see where this takes me for now untill I get this ASIO driver problem worked out.


@Fabian
I was thinking about this last night and I'll have to look deeper into this ...maybe I'll have to uninstall and restall the driver and see if this clear up the problems.


IE....Do any of you know what are real world latency numbers for this type of USB interface type of device?

I ask this because even after I get this driver problem worked out I still don't know if using direct monitoring with fx will cause timing problems because of latency.
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Old 12-10-2009, 11:16 AM   #7
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Ok...got the AISO driver problem solved.

Next when I move the buffer setting to the lowest setting I get
upper right corner of Reaper 6.4/3.1ms ASIO and there is still a phase/doubler effect on the voice and cliking noise when using the direct monitor. Next buffer setting is 6.4/4.1ms ASIO and it about the same phase/douber and clicking noise. Next buffer setting 8.6/7.3ms ASIO and there the same problems. Next buffer setting 8.6/9.3 ASIO at this setting the clicking seems to have stopped, but there is still the phase/douber issues.


Question #1....is this a normal average latency?
Question #2....is there something else I can try to get the latency down?

Thanks for any help on this subject.

Basil
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Old 12-10-2009, 11:39 AM   #8
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Was just thinking about this as well .....I have never changed any of the default buffer,playback or recording settings in Reaper and I don't know if any of these settings would help with the direct monitoring problems.

Last edited by Basil; 12-10-2009 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 12-10-2009, 12:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil View Post

Question #1....is this a normal average latency?
Question #2....is there something else I can try to get the latency down?
Yes, somewhat below 10ms is as good as it gets for many configurations (don't know how low the UA-25 goes elsewhere) and answer #2 would be "not much" and "that wouldn't solve your problem".

You're getting phasing/flanging because you are monitoring the signal simualtaneously "through Reaper" (with latency) and directly from the interface ("Direct Monitoring"). You have to decide which one you want to use and turn off the other.
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Old 12-10-2009, 12:45 PM   #10
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@Steindork
I was wondering about the double monitoring issue
I'll have to see which method works best for me...thanks



"8.6/9.3ms ASIO" I'm not sure what these number mean. I'm guessing 9.3ms of latency,but what is the 8.6 mean?

Question....would you know if changing to a differnt interface would help to lower the latency or are most the same when it comes to this or does it depend on the computer and software?
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:38 PM   #11
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i know my edirol fa-101 has a mintor control. in that you can directly monitor inputs through the interface, and mix them into output 1/2. if you have a "SOFT Ctrl" or "Mix" knob on your edirol, play with these. it may be you are hearing the input signal mixing with the output of Reaper (15ms later, or whatever your latency is).

i *think* the latency numbers are input/output so its 8ms in/9ms out. this seems likely, tho correct me if im wrong. in which case you have 17ms round trip without cpu processing (ie effects etc, which normally only add a few samples)

thats pretty low, tho you should be able to get it lower.
just keep pushing the buffer lower, until you start getting artifacts (clicks & pops).
as you add more tracks etc, you will have to increase the buffer as the cpu has to process them as well as 'pass' the audio.

also, for lower latency, the higher sample rates are better. if the buffer is 1024 samples, then 44.1khz will have a longer buffer time in ms than 48/88.2/96 khz will have as its sending less samples per second.
but thats only if your computer doesnt fall over
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:42 PM   #12
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in regards to getting a lower latency, this is pretty much wholeheratedly reliant on the computer.
not sure how software affects this. presumabley badly made software will
cause latency... reaper isnt badly made tho .

you can get DSP based recording systems & sound cards, but they are (for good ones) £1200+. there will still be playback latency, but monitoring doesnt have to make a round-trip.

hope this helps & doesnt confuse
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Old 12-10-2009, 04:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil View Post
@Steindork

"8.6/9.3ms ASIO" I'm not sure what these number mean. I'm guessing 9.3ms of latency,but what is the 8.6 mean?

Question....would you know if changing to a differnt interface would help to lower the latency or are most the same when it comes to this or does it depend on the computer and software?
As far as I know the values are the Input/Output latency. So 8.6/9.3 means a total of at least 8.6+9.3 = 17.9ms.

The best I've got on my computer is a total of about 14ms for my USB interface and a total of about 12ms with my Firewire interface. Both are too high for me because I can feel the latency. Also, I get pops and clicks on the lowest latency settings.

I recently fitted an inexpensive M audio Audiophile 2496 PCI card which gives me a reported latency of 3.8/3.5 for 128 samples at 41000Hz. No pops and clicks and the latency doesn't bother me. So a PCI interface is the best low latency solution for my 32 bit Vista OS computer.

Pete
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Old 12-10-2009, 06:17 PM   #14
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@ QuIck & stratman

That makes sence and combining the two gives you the total latency.
I'll have to play around with the direct monitor control on the edirol and see what works best for direct monitoring.

Going through the forums it seems drummers and vocalist need to have a low latency to keep things in time and I'm not sure if I can get my buffer


Do ever change the default buffer,playback or recording settings in Reaper
to match the latency differences?
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Old 12-11-2009, 02:41 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spikemullings View Post
It follows that switching off input monitoring will let you just hear the no-latency direct monitoring sound.
Hi!

I just "built" a new mobile set up (Maudio Oxygen 8, Toshiba Satellite, EMU 0404 usb and Reaper), today I tried to find the right settings. Everything works well but as I ercord my guitar direct into my soundcard, there's some king of chorus/delay to it. If I switch off the monitoring of the track, I don't have any sound... I supposed that my settings are not right, could you help me?

Thanks
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:09 PM   #16
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@Steindork

Would you know if I could use a different ASIO driver with the Edirol that can produce a lower latency?

The best setting I can use with the edirol driver is comming in at 17.9 round trip and it's just enough to throw off my timing for vocals
I'm starting to think maybe just use the interface direct dry monitoring and forget using Reapers direct monitoring with FX.

Last edited by Basil; 12-12-2009 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 12-12-2009, 09:44 AM   #17
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I've installed ASIO4ALL but I don't understand how to adjust the settings for the lowest latency. Using the Edirol ASIO I can only get 17.9ms usable latency and this is just enough to throw timing off.


Thanks in advance for any help of this subject.

Basil

Last edited by Basil; 12-12-2009 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 12-12-2009, 10:11 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil View Post
@Steindork

Would you know if I could use a different ASIO driver with the Edirol that can produce a lower latency?

The best setting I can use with the edirol driver is comming in at 17.9 round trip and it just enough to through off my timming for vocals
I'm starting to think maybe just use the interface direct dry monitoring and forget using Reapers direct monitoring with FX.
"Monitoring with FX" is a general problem, mostly fast, expensive FW interfaces and PCI cards can provide real low roundtrip latencies. Some interfaces (EMU) have their own DSP to provide "outboard" FX for monitoring to compensate for that. If you only need some reverb/delay on the voice you can set up your stuff accordingly to add a little reverb from the DAW to the direct monitoring signal (the latency is only an additional predelay to the reverb then) but if you want to hear the signal through the whole chain you need low RT latency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil View Post
I've installed ASIO4ALL but I don't understand how to adjust the settings for the lowest latency. Using the Edirol ASIO I can only get 17.9ms usable latency and this is just enough to through timing off.
ASIO4ALL is sometimes an improvement, but I'm afraid it won't cut your RT latency in half. Basically turn the big horizontal slider in ASIO4ALL to the left until playback starts crackling and then back up a notch or 2.
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Old 12-12-2009, 11:00 AM   #19
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@Steindork

You're a real gentleman and scholar....Thanks!
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