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Old 01-10-2010, 09:20 PM   #1
l0calh05t
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Default Add pan tapers to pan law selection (DONE)

Tracker Issue: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1860
Sample implementation (JS): http://forum.cockos.com/attachment.p...2&d=1263391142
Sample implementation V2 (JS): http://forum.cockos.com/attachment.p...1&d=1274516421
Sample implementation VST (partially done): http://electric-snow.net/plugins.html (jsFader)


Mercado created a nice visualization of the problem:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
These are a couple of examples (-3dB):

REAPER Native Panner:



Sinusoidal Panner:



As we can see the sinusoidal panner would give us a 'natural' and somehow 'expected' panning which is, imo, critical for mixing (I know most people don't care about middle points between hard left/right and center but this is important for some of us, at least, an option would be nice).
During the discussion in this thread, it became clear that Reaper uses a very odd pan taper. To bring it more in line with other DAWs I'd suggest adding a pan taper selection to the current pan law selection (as a second listbox. maybe the compensated/uncompensated could also be turned into a checkbox, which would halve the length of the pan law list -- and be slightly less confusing for beginners methinks).

The pan tapers would be:
Reaper (which should be the default, as this might otherwise break older projects / workflow for new projects)
Square-root
Sinusoidal

If you are about to complain, that both square-root and sinusoidal tapers are fixed to a -3 dB law, they can easily be extended as so:

P = Pan amount [0:1] (0 = left, 0.5 = center, 1 = right)
L = Pan law (reduction at center in dB, must be unequal 0dB. example -6dB => L = 6)

For square-root (or maybe it should be simply be called root, as it isn't necessarily a square root):

Ch1 = (1-P)^(L/6)
Ch2 = P^(L/6)

For -3 dB we get the standard square-root taper and for -6 dB a proper linear taper.

The sinusoidal law could be adapted in the same fashion:

Ch1 = sin(0.5*pi*(1-P))^(L/3)
Ch2 = sin(0.5*pi*P)^(L/3)

For -3 dB the result is a regular sin/cos taper, and for -6dB we get a squared sinusoidal taper.

Other tapers would be possible as well, such as piecewise linear which would approximate how actual potentiometers are built.

Last edited by l0calh05t; 12-02-2010 at 09:48 AM. Reason: link updated
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:38 PM   #2
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I think this is worthy of being put into the tracker.

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Old 01-10-2010, 10:46 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
I think this is worthy of being put into the tracker.

greetings
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Done. http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1860
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Old 01-12-2010, 09:34 PM   #4
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Since this topic is not an easy concept, here are a few graphs to help out.

First, let's compare the 3 tapers using the classic -3dB law (constant power):


As you can see, unlike the two classic tapers, the reaper taper has a discontinuity. Furthermore the purpose of a -3dB law is generally to be a "constant power" law. But if you observe the lower right graph, this only applies to the reaper taper in 3 distinct points. The center and the two extremes.

Now, the -6dB law (constant amplitude):


In this case the reaper taper becomes continuous, but it's action is pronounced towards the extremes of the panning range. Which may, or may not be desired. All three tapers achieve a correct constant amplitude law (lower left).

Third and last, the -4.5dB law, which is designed to split the error between constant power and amplitude (for signals which are neither fully correlated nor uncorrelated):



For all three tapers, the error is now split between the linear and power summing. The reaper taper is discontinous as in the -3dB case, and shows a larger error than the other two in the power sum.

If there are any questions feel free to ask. If anyone wants a small VST (or JS, although I've never tried that) to compare these in practice, I think I could throw one together quickly.

EDIT: Added the gnuplot source for the plots
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pan3.0.jpg (41.5 KB, 10080 views)
File Type: jpg pan6.0.jpg (41.8 KB, 10291 views)
File Type: jpg pan4.5.jpg (42.4 KB, 9873 views)
Attached Files
File Type: txt pantapers.plt.txt (1.4 KB, 394 views)

Last edited by l0calh05t; 01-12-2010 at 09:37 PM. Reason: New attachment
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Old 01-13-2010, 04:56 AM   #5
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I know this sounds arcane but....

the OPs two suggested pan functions make perfect sense, are really standard, and should be implemented.

the sin/cos should be called "constant power"
the expontential should be called as such and should be the default
the current default should be moved to the bottom and eventally moved out to a preference - "original Reaper Panning"
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Old 01-13-2010, 05:08 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semiquaver View Post
I know this sounds arcane but....

the OPs two suggested pan functions make perfect sense, are really standard, and should be implemented.

the sin/cos should be called "constant power"
the expontential should be called as such and should be the default
the current default should be moved to the bottom and eventally moved out to a preference - "original Reaper Panning"
In fact the exponential (maybe a misnomer as its a linear taper raised to a power - maybe it should just be called root taper as the exponent is generally <= 1) one is also constant power if the exponent is 0.5 (square root). Which is why I would call the sin/cos version sinusoidal.

And anyone who is in support of this feature, don't forget to vote for the associated issue :-)
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Old 01-13-2010, 05:59 AM   #7
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I certainly wouldn't mind testing these Pan tapers to see if they do a better job and deliver a more natural panning.
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Old 01-13-2010, 07:05 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
I certainly wouldn't mind testing these Pan tapers to see if they do a better job and deliver a more natural panning.
As promised here's a JS implementation of all 3 pan laws for comparison (in fact, this is my first JS effect, yay :-P)
Attached Files
File Type: zip JSPantest.zip (650 Bytes, 784 views)
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Old 01-13-2010, 10:01 AM   #9
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I'm going to play as well - let us know what you find, Airon.

... back in the dark ages I recall swapping out the pan pots in our MCI console for sinusoidal equal power pots! - so much cheaper in software...
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Old 01-14-2010, 01:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semiquaver View Post
... back in the dark ages I recall swapping out the pan pots in our MCI console for sinusoidal equal power pots! - so much cheaper in software...
Yeah, not only cheaper, probably also quite a bit closer to perfect sinusoidal than those physical pots.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:38 AM   #11
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So, have you guys tested it? Personally I liked the sinusoidal one best.

In any case, one small implementation note:
Since sines and exponentials are fairly costly functions, it might be best to use a small lookup table. ~64 entries with linear interpolation should do without significant loss of panning quality. These could be precomputed at startup.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:56 AM   #12
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Hey, a bit off topic but may I ask how did you make these measurements
and put them into graphs (I mean specifically for this)? I'd like to know more
on measuring/testing apps for DAWs and audio in general

e
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:10 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM View Post
Hey, a bit off topic but may I ask how did you make these measurements
and put them into graphs (I mean specifically for this)? I'd like to know more
on measuring/testing apps for DAWs and audio in general

e
Well, in this case I didn't actually measure anything for the graphs. I used the equations directly to plot them (see the plt file attached to the corresponding posts). The plots were made with gnuplot (wgnuplot to be precise).

But since you asked about measuring:
When measuring audio, you always need a reference. This can be a test tone, a sweep, white noise, pink noise etc. it really depends on what you want to measure. In any case, I would generate my references via Octave (or Matlab if you can afford it... or have a student version or so) and export it as a wav file (via the wavwrite function). Now you can apply this wav to whatever you are testing and record the output to another wav. You can then import the result into octave (wavread) and do your computations on that.

Simple example for the pan laws:
Open Octave
>input = ones(44100,1);
>wavwrite(input, 44100, 16, "blabla/input.wav");
Now you have a wav with one second of a DC level of 1.
Load it into reaper
Run a pan automation over it
Record output of the track to output.wav (only left or right channel)
Back in Octave
>output = wavread("blabla/input.wav");
>plot(output);
Now you have a plot of reapers pan taper.
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:28 AM   #14
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Ah ok I though this was done in real time in order
to directly compare the test signal to a modified
one. Thank you for the informative post!
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:40 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM View Post
Ah ok I though this was done in real time in order
to directly compare the test signal to a modified
one. Thank you for the informative post!
There are a few measurement VSTs and applications which do the measurements in real time, but unless you want to write one for individual measurements, the non-real time version is an adequate solution.
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
So, have you guys tested it? Personally I liked the sinusoidal one best.

In any case, one small implementation note:
Since sines and exponentials are fairly costly functions, it might be best to use a small lookup table. ~64 entries with linear interpolation should do without significant loss of panning quality. These could be precomputed at startup.
Yes, this was a point I was worried about a bit when using e.g. pan envelopes on many tracks at the same time. But I'd propose to use a lookup table of 100 (mirrored) entries, 'cos it would represent the settings that you can achieve and see (when finetuning a fader with ctrl) and hence you'd have no rounding errors between what you see and what is really set.




-Data
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:22 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
Yes, this was a point I was worried about a bit when using e.g. pan envelopes on many tracks at the same time. But I'd propose to use a lookup table of 100 (mirrored) entries, 'cos it would represent the settings that you can achieve and see (when finetuning a fader with ctrl) and hence you'd have no rounding errors between what you see and what is really set.

-Data
You can't simply mirror it at the center setting, maybe you meant one LUT used mirrored for the other channel (which I would do anyways)? In that case 201 entries (100%L to center to 100%R) entries would be needed.

In any case, you'd still want to use linear interpolation, because during automation the pan values can be in between these values.

Personally I don't think so many entries are truly necessary, but that should probably be evaluated empirically.
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:54 PM   #18
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Yes, that's what I meant. 100 +1 for center.

Anyway, I don't doubt the devs know the right way.





-Data
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Old 01-22-2010, 06:55 AM   #19
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Bump.

Aren't there a few more people who'd like to have at least one correct pan taper?
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Old 01-23-2010, 09:43 AM   #20
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Here's some general info on panning laws, and which laws and tapers are provided and used by a few _DAWs.

http://www.harmony-central.com/artic.../panning_laws/
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:43 AM   #21
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Bump.

Are there really so few people who want a correct pan?
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Old 02-01-2010, 01:16 PM   #22
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I want correct pan laws


only just seen this post.The pan laws have always been a little 'strange'to me mainly because of the early mistakes i made having the default set to -3db like in my other DAW. Since realising I've kept everything at default 0 and used my ears,however i was aware something was a little 'different' so now you've cleared up why.


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Old 02-01-2010, 01:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
I want correct pan laws


only just seen this post.The pan laws have always been a little 'strange'to me mainly because of the early mistakes i made having the default set to -3db like in my other DAW. Since realising I've kept everything at default 0 and used my ears,however i was aware something was a little 'different' so now you've cleared up why.


MC
Yes, I noticed that the way I pan in Reaper is different from how I used to do it in other DAWs and after seeing the pictures in the other thread (linked in the original post) I knew why. For static pans this is mainly a workflow issue, but when pans are automated Reaper's strange pan can be a bit of a problem (luckily I rarely need automated pans).

But I was initially expecting more responses, but I guess all the math in the first post scared most people away Although it's so simple...
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Old 02-01-2010, 02:53 PM   #24
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I voted for it. One of the things I like to do is sweep a fill from one side to the other. Without an appropriate pan law I also have to automate volume which takes valuable time.
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Old 02-01-2010, 05:47 PM   #25
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I'd also like to see this added as an option.

+1

(I voted for this since it appeared here )
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Old 02-04-2010, 09:58 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
I'd also like to see this added as an option.

+1

(I voted for this since it appeared here )
Good to hear I'm not that alone, although 18 votes is still quite low imo... oh well.

The problem as a programmer and perfectionist, whenever I see mistakes like these I want to start "rolling my own", but then I'd never finish any tracks...
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:23 PM   #27
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Definetly +1111111111

What about fader tappers? Do you like the action of the Reaper faders? And have you noted pans are not pans but balances? Some little but elemental basic things that should have been there since v0.99


thanks for posting this tracker

Last edited by antiClick; 02-04-2010 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:58 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antiClick View Post
Definetly +1111111111

What about fader tappers? Do you like the action of the Reaper faders? And have you noted pans are not pans but balances? Some little but elemental basic things that should have been there since v0.99


thanks for posting this tracker
the action of the faders can be a bit strange, yes, but the automation is linear as i would expect so this hasn't bothered me too much so far. about the pans being balances, the 0db "pan" definitely is, but due to the unclear definition of mono, stereo and bus tracks in reaper there's not much that can be done about this. and the other pans are plain wrong... but if you mean the lack of a true stereo pan (dual pan or pan+width), yes that would be nice to have too, but there's another tracker issue for that one iirc.
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Old 02-04-2010, 04:24 PM   #29
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about those faders: I was just experimenting a little and the fader taper is most definitely also strange (but as mentioned, this does not affect drawn automation, unlike for pan). When you record the automation from the fader, there is a kind of "plateau" around 0dB which doesn't really belong there IMO.
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Old 02-04-2010, 06:46 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
about those faders: I was just experimenting a little and the fader taper is most definitely also strange (but as mentioned, this does not affect drawn automation, unlike for pan). When you record the automation from the fader, there is a kind of "plateau" around 0dB which doesn't really belong there IMO.
thre is an option in preferences to adjust that "plateau".... it's just that
I cant find satisfactory numbers
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Old 02-05-2010, 02:04 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antiClick View Post
thre is an option in preferences to adjust that "plateau".... it's just that
I cant find satisfactory numbers
Yes, you can adjust the curvature of the function, but not the location of the plateau which is the problem, as it should be at the top end of the fader range, not somewhere in the middle.
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Old 02-05-2010, 05:22 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
Yes, you can adjust the curvature of the function, but not the location of the plateau which is the problem, as it should be at the top end of the fader range, not somewhere in the middle.
Thanks so much for the valuable info. Is there an issue tracker for that?
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Old 02-05-2010, 05:30 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antiClick View Post
Thanks so much for the valuable info. Is there an issue tracker for that?
Not that I know of. You could post one and a corresponding thread (you'd have my vote). BTW you can try setting the maximum of the fader range to +1 (for some reason reaper won't allow 0dB for whatever reason) and see if it behaves more naturally then (it does IMO, but obviously you loose the ability to boost volume)
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Old 02-05-2010, 10:51 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
Not that I know of. You could post one and a corresponding thread (you'd have my vote).
found it!
Please vote
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1736
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Old 02-05-2010, 10:56 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antiClick View Post
Not exactly the same thing, no? We were talking about the faders, not the envelopes. So I think you need to do some writing yourself
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Old 02-08-2010, 01:18 AM   #36
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Any mods out there: maybe posts #27-#35 could be moved over to http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=51408 ? If it's possible to move individual posts that is.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:09 PM   #37
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good bump, i didnt see this thread last time it was around.

+1 from me too. Absolutely!
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Old 04-05-2010, 11:36 PM   #38
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considering that the stereo panning request has been an elevated fr for some time now, wouldn't it be smart to take care of correct panning while panning is already being reworked?
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:39 AM   #39
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since it's already been a while and nothing has happened about this truly basic problem: bump
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Old 04-20-2010, 05:35 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semiquaver View Post
I know this sounds arcane but....

the OPs two suggested pan functions make perfect sense, are really standard, and should be implemented.

the sin/cos should be called "constant power"
the expontential should be called as such and should be the default
the current default should be moved to the bottom and eventally moved out to a preference - "original Reaper Panning"
Why? So it can be like "other daws"? Whats there now works damn good for me. If I wanted what the other daws do I would use one ofthe other daws.

I am all for change for the better. I don't see it here. I just see change for the sake of being something else.
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