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Old 04-03-2007, 10:13 PM   #1
Jonas_Eriksson_Swe
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Default Using Reaper as a multi velocity drum replacer (with several samples on each layer)

hey all,

I just figured out how to use Reaper as a multi velocity drum replacer with several samples that are randomly switched between on each velocity layer.

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/16401/R...gog-killer.zip
555kB containing an example project + 1 new JS plug in: a MIDI velocity low pass and high pass filter.

this example project has four velocity layers with two samples on each layer (more velocity layers and/or samples per layer could easily be added if you'd like that).

before opening the project make sure you copy the "Jonas"-folder (containing the new MIDI velocity lphp-plug in) to ...\REAPER\Effects

how it works:

the drum that should be replaced is put on (or routed to) the trigger track. the fx on that track are:

* Reagate: to choose which hits to replace
* SStillwell/drumtrigger: to convert each hit to a midi note
* SStillwell/randomizer: to randomly switch between different notes on each hit

the resulting midi notes are then routed to four tracks within the snare folder: low vel, low mid vel, hi mid vel and high vel. (meaning low velocity layer ... high velocity layer.)

th fx on each of these tracks are:

* Jonas/velocity_lphp: to choose by velocity which notes to let through and which to mute. only notes with a velocity above or equal to the high pass setting and below or equal to the low pass setting will be let through.
* ReaSamplOmatic5000: to play the first sample in this velocity layer.
* ReaSamplOmatic5000: to play the second sample in this velocity layer.

(the randomizer on the trigger track chooses which of these two samples to play.)

then I just set up the velocity_lphps like crossovers, that is: the the first velocity layer plays hits with a velocity between 0 and 47, the second between 48 and 64 and so on.

sounds kind of complicated but just load the example project (after first dumping the "Jonas"-folder into you Effects-folder as described above) and see and hear it in action.

usage hints:

* adjust the threshold and/or filter on the Reagate to choose which hits to replace (and which not to).

* raise the the wet fader in the Reagate (on the trigger track) until the hardest hit on the drum you want to replace is sent to the highest velocity layer.

* adjust the velocity "crossovers" to decide which sample layer to be played at which hit.

* probably more that I can't think of right now

ah, my first JS plug in...
regards,
- Jonas

PS1: the velocity_lphp seems to work just fine (is really just a modified version of the midi_velocitycontrol) but the usual "if my plug in fries your computer I'm not to blame"-disclaimer applies. S

PS2: I kind of like having the different velocity layers on different track (makes it easy to adjust levels) but I'm thinking of a way to do all replacing on one track. that would make it possible to have a fx-chain that you could just load up on any track you want to replace... but I'll get back to that in a couple of days : DS

PS3: the idea to this came from this thread http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthre...1159#post61159 (scroll down a bit) : DS

Last edited by Jonas_Eriksson_Swe; 04-03-2007 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 04-03-2007, 10:15 PM   #2
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awesome!!! could open that setup and rearoute it to another instance of reaper too! like an external drum machine
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Old 04-04-2007, 10:55 AM   #3
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thanks pipe! that's a brilliant idea - just spawn a new Reaper-instance and ReaRoute it!

and I'm guessing you recognized the samples I used in the example project - hope that's ok with you

regards,
- Jonas
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Old 04-04-2007, 10:58 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas_Eriksson_Swe View Post
thanks pipe! that's a brilliant idea - just spawn a new Reaper-instance and ReaRoute it!

and I'm guessing you recognized the samples I used in the example project - hope that's ok with you

regards,
- Jonas
Use em!!!

Also Blueroom at RP has made some more samples available too

http://www.recordingproject.com/bbs/...ic.php?t=29271

There are not just gogs, but waves on that link
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Old 04-23-2007, 05:00 AM   #5
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Bump!!

...Gonna be working more with this over the next few days, looks very promising!

-mr moon
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Old 04-23-2007, 05:18 AM   #6
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Excuse me my 1st post.....

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???
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Old 04-23-2007, 07:25 AM   #7
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I'm actually quite tempted to reply in a less civilized manner, but I won't. so here's my reply:

I'm talking about replacing recorded drums with samples in a natural sounding way. and as I wrote above:

Quote:
sounds kind of complicated but just load the example project (after first dumping the "Jonas"-folder into you Effects-folder as described above) and see and hear it in action.
if you don't like what you hear, simply ignore this little project of mine.

regards,
- Jonas
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Old 04-23-2007, 08:25 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumblefuck View Post
Excuse me my 1st post.....

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???
Great first post!
Way to make your mark.
Welcome to the forum.
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:01 AM   #9
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Default KickaGOG

Hey!!

Using Jonas' velocity drum replacer as a template, I have created a kick drum replacer using the WAV files parsed from the *free* Sneap kick .GOG file that have been posted online.

The original sneap gogs available here:
http://www.drumagog.com/phpbb2/viewt...a5e2b69428aa2e

I A/B'd it with the drumagog track (using the same trigger file in the same project) and the one I set up works very well, especially when you have a compressor/limiter on the track to help level things out.

Keep in mind that you may need to tweak it a bit for the specific project you're working with.

Shall I post it, or is there *no* interest?


-mr moon
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:02 AM   #10
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whoa! where is andy sneap's forum?
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:12 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
whoa! where is andy sneap's forum?
Yeah, I supposed that would be a "good," "prudent," and "respectful" thing to get his OK before posting those here. Let me shoot out an email to him and see if that would be OK with him.

-mr moon
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:13 AM   #12
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So many great and useful things happening in the community (thanks Jonas, great idea and plug!) but scattered all over the forum -

I think we could use some sort of REAPER GOODIES download section for users'contributions (plugs, templates, add-ons, samples) that can be reached from the site's Download page menu (besides the sample projects and pipe's videos).

Justin's theme pack could be in there as well, plus other stuff relevant to all REAPER users (and some of them won't go through the forum all the time).
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:13 AM   #13
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He just mastered an album I mixed, (Koama) ask him if he'd like the gog's I used on that too
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:25 AM   #14
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hey all,

Quote:
Shall I post it, or is there *no* interest?
do post the it! and if possible, could you post a snippet of an A/B comparison between the drumagog and the reaper-mr.moon-jonas-version of it? would be interesting to hear.

Quote:
I think we could use some sort of REAPER GOODIES download section for users'contributions (plugs, templates, add-ons, samples) that can be reached from the site's Download page menu (besides the sample projects and pipe's videos).
I agree, this would be great. only problem is how to and who gets to decide what's a goodie?

Quote:
He just mastered an album I mixed, (Koama) ask him if he'd like the gog's I used on that too
pipe, dunno if I told you but I play in a band called Khoma - we used to be called Koma but had to change name when we signed to Roadrunner, it turned out there were sevral bands by that name already - anyway, at that time we actually discussed changing our name to Koama. probably good we went for Khoma instead

regards,
- Jonas
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:35 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas_Eriksson_Swe View Post
do post the it! and if possible, could you post a snippet of an A/B comparison between the drumagog and the reaper-mr.moon-jonas-version of it? would be interesting to hear.

- Jonas
Hi Jonas,

The email has been sent, so if I get an OK, I'll be sure to post it!! I may include the *free* W1 limiter on the FX rack for the main folder with the settings that I like best, as I have found the W1 to be GREAT for drum busses and such.

W1: http://www.yohng.com/w1limit.html

In the meantime, I'm going to tweak it a bit once I get back home to my DAW, as my work computer doesn't have a good monitoring system connected to it. However, I'm very impressed with how well it triggers as compared to the drumagog track.



-mr moon
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:36 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. moon View Post
Hey!!

Using Jonas' velocity drum replacer as a template, I have created a kick drum replacer using the WAV files parsed from the *free* Sneap kick .GOG file that have been posted online.

The original sneap gogs available here:
http://www.drumagog.com/phpbb2/viewt...a5e2b69428aa2e

I A/B'd it with the drumagog track (using the same trigger file in the same project) and the one I set up works very well, especially when you have a compressor/limiter on the track to help level things out.

Keep in mind that you may need to tweak it a bit for the specific project you're working with.

Shall I post it, or is there *no* interest?


-mr moon


How do you parse the .wav files from the .gogs?
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Old 04-23-2007, 10:04 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James HE View Post
How do you parse the .wav files from the .gogs?

In Reaper, you would open up a new project, create a track, insert the drumagog effect for the track, select the gog file you want to parse, and then under the "samples" tab in drumagog you should see the name of the gog file you're using and the associated wav files from it. You can then right-click on each of the wav files and select "export to wav"

HTH.

-mr moon
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Old 04-23-2007, 12:21 PM   #18
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How about just using THIS http://www.boxsounds.com/vst.html

LAter
Buzz

PS: works GOOD IMO !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:12 PM   #19
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Default One Problem!!

Jonas,

EDIT: the kick track run through the drumagog killer is delayed by 231 samples to the original.

I have stumbled upon a problem that you're drumagog killer has, and that is that there is *no* latency compensation when rendering with your plug like drumagog has. This means that the latency caused by the gating and triggering effects are translated to renders when in drumagog they are not. This would be fine if your rendering to stems (submixes) and them mixing submixes, because you could just nudge the drums back into the correct timing, but since I render entire mixes and not stems, this will not work for me. (The kick drum would be out of time "x" number of samples in relation to the rest of the instruments in the song)

Is there some JS utility which would take care of this latency compensation?

BTW: I have created track templates using the NS_Kit7Free kicks (open and closed) and I s'pose I could post those? I could post them without the kick samples themselves and leave it up to people to download the free kit themselves and install it into a specific directory. That way I wouldn't really be breaking any copyright/publishing rights or anything, right?

-mr moon
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Last edited by mr. moon; 04-23-2007 at 02:29 PM. Reason: Clarified samples
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Old 04-23-2007, 03:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbuzz View Post
How about just using THIS http://www.boxsounds.com/vst.html

LAter
Buzz

PS: works GOOD IMO !!!!!!!!!!!!!
that doesn't look to be the same thing. the idea is to control the triggering of specific samples according to velocity. example: let's say i sampled my snare drum 4 times using a rim shot, a light hit, a medium hit, and a hard hit. with a multi velocity sampler i can assign each sample to a velocity range. let's say 0-50 for the rim shot, 51-80 for the light hit, 81-100 for the medium, and 101-127 for the hard hit. only one sample is fired at a time. to add to that, a group of samples could be assigned to each velocity range to achieve different or more realistic sounds.
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Old 04-23-2007, 04:12 PM   #21
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use multiple instances ! , just trying to keep it simple I got MUSIC to worry about LOL !!!!!

Later
Buzz

PS: I found the Drumagog killer hard to use Or I just dont have my head around it ???????? I need a laymans operating manual for it !!
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Old 04-23-2007, 04:47 PM   #22
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Yeah, I supposed that would be a "good," "prudent," and "respectful" thing to get his OK before posting those here. Let me shoot out an email to him and see if that would be OK with him.

-mr moon
OK. Here's the response I got from Andy Sneap:

"yeah not a problem, go for it
Andy "


So, we're cool!!

I will be posting the files and everything later tonight!

-mr moon
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Old 04-23-2007, 06:54 PM   #23
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As another option, I can highly recommend KT Drum Trigger (free) as a very good audio to midi converter for drum triggering. This (and EKit Trigger, mentioned below) already has the filters, etc. built into the plugin (as well as having visual feedback of the sound that is triggering the midi signals), rather than having to use multiple plugins to do the work of a single plugin (and possibly reductin or eliminating a few latency inducing steps?).

http://www.koen.smartelectronix.com/KTDrumTrigger/

This plugin can work well both for replacing drum hits in audio tracks AND for programming drums.

I've used KT Drum Trigger to trigger drum samples by plugging DIY drum trigger pads straight into sound card inputs, and with a bit of tweaking was able to get some very tight tracking. You can also set up a mic and sing the rhythms or bang them out on a table or other surface with your hands or some drum sticks.

Another free plugin that I've found to work VERY well for this is EKit Trigger. It's no longer being developed/supported by the developer, but it's available in his archive here:

http://www.tinbrooketales.com/archiv...vstplugins.htm

Here's the developer's complete archive (more freeware plugins and drum samples):

http://www.tinbrooketales.com/archive/archive.htm

Developer's main page:

http://hem.bredband.net/tbtaudio/

You can also download EKit Trigger from here:

http://mp3.deepsound.net/plugins_divers.php

With my sound card set to low latency (2-5 ms or so), using EKit Trigger, I could get very playable results playing drum parts in via a simple piezoelectric drum trigger stuck onto a practice pad, with very tight tracking, including being able to play in very usable press rolls.

With these plugins, you can trigger any sampler via midi, so you can use velocity-layered sample instruments, soundfont kits, etc.

There are some other free and inexpensive plugins that have some similar functionality to drumagog. There's actually a nice article on this subject (it's actually about drum replacement in Cubase, which doesn't have very good native facilities for drum replacement) in this month's Sound on Sound.

Last edited by scottdru; 04-23-2007 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 04-23-2007, 07:10 PM   #24
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Default Andy Sneap Kick Replacer Posted!!

OK.

I have created and posted a self-executable file named "Kickagog1.exe" which contains the following:

1. The Andy Sneap kick drum WAVs (thanks Andy!),
2. A track template file for them,
3. A Reaper project file for them,
4. The original contents from Jonas' "Reaper-drumagog-killer.zip" file, which are needed for the Jonas effect directory and his project file for guidance,
5. a "ReadMe.txt" file which gives general instructions on how to install the files once you have them decompressed into your main Reaper program directory.


To install the necessary files, just download the "Kickagog1.exe" file into your main Reaper directory, double click it, and just click "install" ...that's it!! (Be sure to scan it for virii and such first, as you never know what ickiness may get wrapped into the file on those free file servers!) The be sure to read the readme file to get the detailed info to get it up and running.

*Please note that the files were created on a default-configured installation of Reaper, so the "C:" drive is the primary drive which contains the Reaper directory "C:\Program Files\Reaper\..." and the Reaper project folders and files within this main directory, as well as the default track template file directory. If you have customized your Reaper installation, you may need to reconfigure the file paths and such to get everything to work correctly.

(*For example, on my Win64-bit installation, the main reaper directory is actually located in the "...\Program Files (x86)\" folder, so I had to create a directory named "Reaper" in the "...\Program Files\" directory and place the "Kickagog1" folder (with the included WAV files) in there so that the templates would work correctly, as they were configured to use this directory and not the one assigned because I run Win64 rather than WinXP.)

The readme file also gives a suggestion how to manually get around the latency issue that you'll (most likely) encounter on the newly rendered kick track (not the original "trigger" kick track from the project).

Anywho, here's where you can grab the file from:

http://www.sharebigfile.com/file/151...agog1-exe.html

Here's the file with the Voxengo latency delay plug added:
http://www.sharebigfile.com/file/151...gog1b-exe.html

And a BIG thanks to Andy Sneap and Voxengo for allowing me permission for putting this together and posting it here!!!

http://www.andysneap.com/



Enjoy!

-mr moon
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Last edited by mr. moon; 04-24-2007 at 05:58 AM. Reason: Clarity & added link to the new file
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Old 04-23-2007, 08:37 PM   #25
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Default New File Updated!!

Hi Folks,

I had to upload a new file due to a bunk template file which I had included in the project. So, please download the new file to get the update one!!

I updated the link above, but I'll also post it in this thread too:
http://www.sharebigfile.com/file/151...agog1-exe.html

Here's another version that includes the Voxengo latency delay plugin, in case you'd like that one:
http://www.sharebigfile.com/file/151...gog1b-exe.html

-mr moon
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Last edited by mr. moon; 04-24-2007 at 05:56 AM. Reason: Added link for the new file
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:27 AM   #26
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hey mr. moon,

just tried your template on an old and poorly recorded kick track and it works just fine.

one thing to keep in mind is to adjust the wet out fader on the reagate so that you actually use all the velocity layers you have (eg preserving the dynamics).

nice work! I used Voxengo's Latency delay on the folder track to dela with the latency and it works great, perfectly in sync (in my test the latency was 212 samples). but in real life I'd probably adjust it manually.

mbuzz> to me it's not complicated but I created the monster so I should understand it, right I do however see the need for a better explanation of how to use it, when I find the time (might be a while...) I'll try to make one of those video tutorials for it.

regards,
- Jonas
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:37 AM   #27
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Quote:
As another option, I can highly recommend KT Drum Trigger (free) as a very good audio to midi converter for drum triggering.
I actually looked at that before I did the drumagog-killer-project but found it too complicated now I've looked at it again and it seems like it will do the job. however, it's only an alternative to the trigger part of the drumagog-killer, you'd still need a sampler (that supports different samples for different MIDI velocities) to play back the samples.

anyone know of a good (and free) sampler that does that?

I still have an idea on how to do all the thins that the drumagog killer does on a single track, will just have to write another js plug... *back to the drawing board*

regards,
- JOnas
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:48 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas_Eriksson_Swe View Post
hey mr. moon,

just tried your template on an old and poorly recorded kick track and it works just fine.

one thing to keep in mind is to adjust the wet out fader on the reagate so that you actually use all the velocity layers you have (eg preserving the dynamics).

nice work! I used Voxengo's Latency delay on the folder track to dela with the latency and it works great, perfectly in sync (in my test the latency was 212 samples). but in real life I'd probably adjust it manually.

regards,
- Jonas
Thanks Jonas! However you deserve all the credit for doing all the "real" work, I just mangled your creation for my specific application!

As far as the wet/dry reagate adjustment is concerned, here's a screen capture which displays that the different velocities are being used and outputting different levels, as demonstrated by the level indicators on each of the velocity tracks (circled in RED).



I also just posted a new version of the KickaGOG.exe package which includes the voxengo latency delay plugin, so folks can use that if they'd like. It can be downloaded from here:

http://www.sharebigfile.com/file/151...gog1b-exe.html

Enjoy!!

-mr moon
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Old 01-18-2008, 12:01 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by www.sharebigfile.com
Your requested file is not found

Please wait while we transfer you...
Could you please upload this again somewhere?
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