Any recommended musicians forums?

[braveness23]

This may be a long shot but can anyone recommend any web forums where people discuss music making from a creative standpoint. I've done a quick google and see a ton of stuff but I'm wondering if there is a MUST GO TO site.

[msore]

Been to and been with a bunch of them over the last five years. They don't last, or they get watered down. Can't recommend any now. I have found that it is more valuable to get the strong and informed views of a FEW steady collaborators and critics, and from folks who have the experience and vocabulary to speak my lingo musically.

I sympathize with the question. Talking about your musical creative process is important, because it exposes assumptions, and highlights new options. But I have come to think that it is not a "mass" phenom.

Strangely, there are many writing groups and writing methods discussions among writers. There are innumerable books on writing, but very few good books on composing and songwriting and musical method. But then, writers are more verbal than musicians.

Here are two problems that have always come up. First, musicians tend to be less abstract. They want "tricks" and "riffs" and "cool scales", rather than talking about creativity at the level of composition and harmony and genres. Second, musicians tend (more than writers) to be caught up in ONE genre, which tends to make them unable to discuss with people outside that genre.

I am interested to see if there are suggestions here, because I would love to be proved wrong.

[Panic]

very few good books on composing and songwriting and musical method.

What is this musical method? I've seen you mention it a few times, iinm. Probably not the thread for it, but could you elaborate on it somewhere?

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AFA the original topic, I've got nothing for you. Sorry. Most of the best threads on anything seem to pop up spontaneously and in no particular place.

[msore]

It is what a lot of people ASK about and wonder about when they wanna know how other people DO their stuff.

[Panic]

It is what a lot of people ASK about and wonder about when they wanna know how other people DO their stuff.

ohhhh...gotcha. Like, where do you get your ideas? Or, how do you develop your ideas?

So, what sort of answers do you offer, when you get asked?

[msore]

You mean - to stick to the question - What forums are there where people discuss this stuff and share their knowledge?

[Panic]

No. When someone asks you about your methods; what do you tell them?

[braveness23]

Sorry to make a post and take a day to look to see if anyone replied. Thanks for your replies!

I found the same problem when I was more into photography. You can find a million and one sites and books to talk about this lens or that body or flash or even how the relationship of aperture, shutter speed and film speed interrelate. But very few address photography from a standpoint of "why I positioned myself and the lights like that to get my shot.". It's almost like you have to visit the gallery on opening night and catch the photographer before he's had too much wine and hope his mother in law isn't yapping about how he loved to look at picture books when he was a kid.

I also wondered to myself as I posted, "why don't you just ask the questions here". I can see the point of musicians really working within their own genre and "not getting out enough" to be able to talk about other. I'm just not sure if there are people here who are anywhere near my world. When I spent a lot of time on the Propellerhead Reason forums it seemed like it was dubstep or die....

Finally, its also really hard to get people to listen to your stuff critically from a composition perspective. I'm afraid that here I will get more comments like "you have too much room ambiance in your drum mics, why don't you put your oversized sofa in your room and try a <insert microphone model> on the kick" when what I really want to talk about is where and how should the drums come in to get the best impact?

Anyway, maybe I'll just throw out a post about something specific and see if it gets any traction.

Thanks!

[braveness23]

I have found that it is more valuable to get the strong and informed views of a FEW steady collaborators and critics, and from folks who have the experience and vocabulary to speak my lingo musically.

I'm back. Part of the problem I am experiencing right now is that my musical collaborators right now are not exactly, well... collaborating. They have expressed to me that the love the stuff I am coming up with and are happy to participate but they are really looking to me to point the way. That can either be regarded as an enviable situation or pretty bleak one. At the moment it's the later. The camaraderie of the group makes it really enjoyable and I';m not hunting for new people to play with but not having anyone to offer ideas or give push-back on bad ones ruins the whole catalyst momentum.

<discuss>

[Panic]

It's easier to talk about gear and recording techniques. :)

Like you say, you could post something up and ask for feedback on a specific area.

Alternatively, you might consider starting up some sort of group; a handful of similarly minded writers that support, provide feedback and constructive critiques of each others work.

[karbomusic]

I'm back. Part of the problem I am experiencing right now is that my musical collaborators right now are not exactly, well... collaborating. They have expressed to me that the love the stuff I am coming up with and are happy to participate but they are really looking to me to point the way. That can either be regarded as an enviable situation or pretty bleak one. At the moment it's the later. The camaraderie of the group makes it really enjoyable and I';m not hunting for new people to play with but not having anyone to offer ideas or give push-back on bad ones ruins the whole catalyst momentum.

<discuss>

Finding a good collaborator is like finding a good mate and that's how you have to look at it. I've been in great bands with members who were great buddies but we couldn't collaborate even though we played very well together. I play in a gig now with an incredible singer who couldn't write their way out of a wet paper bag. :D We do covers, that's as far as it can go. I've also been in bands that did collaborate well together. Whichever it was, that's what it was.

I'm likely to collaborate with friends of mine I don't even gig or play with at all but we collaborate well. Those collaborations could turn into a gig as a result of the collaboration. Either way, it seems its something you search for and when you find it, keep it as long as you can as I think it is somewhat rare comparatively.

[Stretto]

@braveness:

I'm afraid you won't ever find anything like that(talking about the "why"). Music is an art form and while there is a "mathematical" basis it is as complex as the the evolution of mankind.

What makes a good artist is not some mathematical formula but some innate difference that sets them apart(could be talent, drive, experience, etc...). Strictly speaking, aesthetics is a bell curve and most people have similar aesthetics. When a person can tap into it at will they will have that something "special". This generally is because they have much of the basis covered and are in the right environment at the right time.

Why X chose Y isn't a question. It is a statement. He chose it because that is who he is and all his experience and genetics made that choice him. If it was a good choice then he will benefit from it, if not then he won't. (it is essentially evolution at work)

This is not to say you can't learn things but virtually of all of the great's at whatever subject were "naturals"(but this doesn't mean it did not take hard work).

How many people do you know that are very good at something(specially an art form) but can't explain it to you to make you good at it?

Art is a very complex subject, very difficult to even teach the step beyond the basics with good success.... and that's a good thing. Art encomposes what it means to be human. It's like trying to teach a baby to walk... you don't! The baby just does it through it's own thing that makes it life. (It whatever it is was wrong then we wouldn't have evolved to it)

So, a few points:

1. You can learn from others but you can learn more from yourself! Try doing both!

2. Art is about inner expression. Greatness is the measure of how well you do this. There are many people that can imitate well and this is the first step but no one can teach you to be great... either you are or you aren't.

3. Swimming upstream is much more difficult than downstream.

4. Sometimes wanting to know the "why" of something is irrelevant. This is very difficult for some types of people(me included). But at some point you just have to realize that from a practical perspective the "why" is not as important as the "how" and you get the "how" from "doing". (in terms of art, most good/great artists do not know the "why"(at least intellectually)... which should tell you something)


[QUOTE]You can find a million and one sites and books to talk about this lens or that body or flash or even how the relationship of aperture, shutter speed and film speed interrelate.[\QUOTE]

They are showing you the tools. Knowing your tools is extremely important and is probably 65% +- 15% of the equation

[QUOTE]But very few address photography from a standpoint of "why I positioned myself and the lights like that to get my shot.[\QUOTE]

Cause the "why" is not really known. When someone made the choice to do it that way they did it based on emotion. They didn't compute some formula consciously to determine which spot was the best but went on their gut(their emotions figured it out subconsciously for them). BUT for every person that gets it right there are thousands that do not. Those that get it right tend to be more "in tune" with consciousness in that their emotions do a better job at giving them the right answers for that particular type of problem.

What all this boils down to is: Learn your tools well. Learn the "why" up to a point but not at the cost of experience. If you want to copy others then be good at it. If your not then don't force it. Be in tune with your own consciousness so that your expressing it efficiently. Only history will determine if you were good at it/it was worth something to humanity.

[Wymarus]

Msore youre both trained musician and avant garde in a very good way so would you say its good to write,practice,study in approx. equal blocks of time?

[franV]

Deleted by myself

[braveness23]

Thanks again for everyone's thoughtful responses.

@Stretto, I especially appreciate your comments because you put a lot of thought into your response AND I don't necessarily agree with you which is a great base for future discussion. Alas, I am supposed to be at work in 60 minutes so I can't elaborate right now... <tease, huh? le sigh...>

Just FYI, here is a post I just made sharing one source of inspirational reading that I have found.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=111364

[msore]

All the things that Stretto said above (while they may be sorta real from his view and method) are things that could be and are handled DIFFERENTLY by others.

Why does a photographer move two feet to the right? Good photographers may have many reasons for it, some expressible, some teachable. Why does a guitarist use a 13th chord instead of a Dom7? There are plenty of reasons in a composition - maybe having to do with basslines, or what chord you are leading up to, or where your hand is on the fingerboard. A good composer/guitarist will be able to tell you - not emotionally brushing over it - in terms that show he has been learning, and in terms that show someone younger how to learn.

It can be talked about.

[msore]

Msore youre both trained musician and avant garde in a very good way so would you say its good to write,practice,study in approx. equal blocks of time?

I wouldn't say that.

I have approached study of music in a way that I have in the past (as teacher) compared to food. That is, the body (if you pay attention to it) often will tell you what it needs.

When you have been composing too much, your musical brain might tell you to slow down on that and spend a couple of week LISTENING to old music. Or when you have been playing too much, you may get a feeling that you should open up a fake book and study some classic chord changes.

Another useful principle is to be opportunistic. WHEN you have a friend visiting from Boston who can spend a couple of weeks collaborating and playing duets, put all that other stuff down and take advantage of her being there. On the other hand, WHEN you are in Seattle visiting your family, go out to some open-mics and see what new approaches you can find.

Another principle - which ends up pushing productivity - is to pay attention half the time (sort of) to deadlines and getting projects finished without looking too hard at them, and then allow yourself plenty of non-deadline time to explore, fuss, experiment, tweak and go in circles. If you don't do one, AND if you don't do the other, your music will suffer.

to every thing, there is a season?

[msore]

If someone were aggressive and idealistic enough to start a forum about musical ideas and methods, I would be there.

I just went to jazzmatrix.com, which is a music forum I was part of years ago and got a lot out of. Chris Standring ran it (LA guitarist http://www.reverbnation.com/chrisstandring). It kind of dragged to a slow rut, and I moved on. I can't tell if it is still alive or not.

At any rate, it is an example.