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View Full Version : ok what the hell is sending out cc7 and where do I turn it off?


KenC
03-25-2013, 05:01 AM
Trying to figure out why my VEP5 hosted instruments constantly gets their volumes reset and screwing up my levels as I do my levels in VEP5 and have everything at unity gain in my template in Reaper so I only need to do minor tweaks depending on the context, it happens as soon as I start a cue in Reaper on all midi tracks.

Example:

I set levels for all instruments in a Kontact instance, start the cue and flick, everything gets reset back to defaults.

I have everything in Reaper off under prefs\MIDI Devices, unchecked Notes off\Reset pitch\Reset CC

There's no cc 7 to be found anywhere, nothing embedded in midi items, it happens even if there's no midi items at all.. so where's this pesky cc7 coming from?

KenC
03-25-2013, 06:50 AM
AHA!!

Got you now you little bugger, yeah.. look at you now, not so tough now are you mwahahaha :mad:

In case anyone else has this problem, click the track I/O button, there's a little green MIDI plug icon, turn that bastard off and this goes away.

Tod
03-25-2013, 09:46 AM
In case anyone else has this problem, click the track I/O button, there's a little green MIDI plug icon, turn that bastard off and this goes away.

Hi Ken, heh heh, I've not run across this. Basically I haven't paid a lot of attention to that little thingy. :)

So in Kontakt, it sets all the volume levels to the instrument defaults, which have been set up in each individual instrument options?

Tod
03-25-2013, 09:52 AM
Okay, I checked it out and you're right, it resets all the volumes and pans. :)

The worst part is that it leaves the Pans set R1 because there is no technical center with 128 midi values. :mad:

FnA
03-25-2013, 10:12 AM
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=114096

If you set it up as default in preferences, sends send MIDI only, or use the SWS actions to do so it doesn't do that. I have a couple cycle actions on toolbar buttons to do that and set it back. I think it's only when you eliminate the audio part that it happens.

KenC
03-25-2013, 11:01 AM
So in Kontakt, it sets all the volume levels to the instrument defaults, which have been set up in each individual instrument options?

Yep that's what it's doing, spend ages setting every instrument just so (Bordering on OCD) and with say LA Scring strings this means double bass, cello, violas, 1st and 2nd violins, each one has been set to have 4 articulations ( and each instrument has divisi sections 1st chair, a, b, c so in all 45 instruments for the 5 string sections.

ah finally done took ages... hit play and everything is reset raaaaaaaaah :mad:

I nearly went nuts and spent days trying to figure this out.

I can't really see why anyone would want this thing on, it's basically a "screw everything up" button.

It was a mere accident that I found out that little green bugger was the cause, I was basically just clicking things out of frustration lol.


I think it's only when you eliminate the audio part that it happens.

Yeah that's how I've got my MIDI tracks setup because I use Vienna ensemble pro, you run a plugin and connect to the slave, then you can send midi to that track and set other tracks to receive the audio, so all my MIDI tracks has been set to only midi and audio turned off.

Tod
03-25-2013, 11:20 AM
ah finally done took ages... hit play and everything is reset raaaaaaaaah :mad:

I nearly went nuts and spent days trying to figure this out.

I can't really see why anyone would want this thing on, it's basically a "screw everything up" button.

Don't you just love it, heh heh..:D

I usually like my volumes to start at the default so I didn't pay any attention to it. However, I've wondered why my Pans were all set to R1? :)

planetnine
03-25-2013, 02:04 PM
So in words a sound engineer could understand, what does this little green blighter actually do?

It sends CC values to reset/override the plugin's levels and pans? I can't find it in the manual, does U&R mention it?


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Milt
03-26-2013, 06:14 AM
It bugged the hell out of me for the longest time as well, and there is no mention of it anywhere in the documentation that I can find. Now, it's just second nature for me to turn the darn thing off. If anybody finds a way to permanently disable it, please post. Milton.

gofer
03-26-2013, 06:33 AM
Okay, I checked it out and you're right, it resets all the volumes and pans. :)

The worst part is that it leaves the Pans set R1 because there is no technical center with 128 midi values. :mad:
I ranted about that darn button a lot, but I don't see this happening here.
For me it resets pan (and volume) to the value set on the send faders, iow if I have pan at center in the send, then the MIDI reset will bring it back to center on playback start. Technical center of pan is CC10 64 plus CC42 0). I didn't test thoroughly, but I think only the CC10 part is sent from the reset caused by that button.

I don't really get my head around that button, so I just keep it off (I don't have a need for track MIDI faders either, and IIRC that is the use-case where one needs that button lit. I believe FNA is right, it's only when you set the audio from box to [none] when the MIDI button automatically lits up.

planetnine
03-26-2013, 06:58 AM
I ranted about that darn button a lot, but I don't see this happening here.
For me it resets pan (and volume) to the value set on the send faders, iow if I have pan at center in the send, then the MIDI reset will bring it back to center on playback start. Technical center of pan is CC10 64 plus CC42 0). I didn't test thoroughly, but I think only the CC10 part is sent from the reset caused by that button.

I don't really get my head around that button, so I just keep it off (I don't have a need for track MIDI faders either, and IIRC that is the use-case where one needs that button lit. I believe FNA is right, it's only when you set the audio from box to [none] when the MIDI button automatically lits up.


Is there a way to keep it off as default in Prefs? I think this has caused me problems in Superior Drummer before (I disabled "CC7 controls master volume" at the Superior end after it wasted several hours wondering what was going wrong).

I cannot find it in the manual, I think it needs to be at least mentioned if ignorance of it causes issues like reported in this thread. I've mentioned it to Nicholas and it'll be looked into, time allowing.

With this in mind, what is it called, what is a succinct description for what it does, anybody? Is it just CC7 forwarding? Pan & Volume synch?



>

KenC
03-26-2013, 07:36 AM
I don't have a need for track MIDI faders either.

I was just thinking about this the other day, I wish there was a way to link that fader to the fader on another track and use it for something when the track is just sending midi somewhere else.

I tried grouping a midi track and an audio track and link the faders but it doesn't seem to work.

I use Vienna ensemble pro and you set up a bunch of tracks with the vep5 plugin on, you can then send MIDI to that track or set other tracks to receive audio from it.

Would be awesome if I could link my midi track faders to an audio track faders, that way I could adjust levels on the midi track and it would change the audio track.

KenC
03-26-2013, 07:41 AM
What is a succinct description for what it does, anybody?

I suggest changing the icon to this:

http://forum.cockos.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17840&stc=1&d=1364308830

Tooltip = [Click this to waste a couple days pulling hair out] :D

Tod
03-26-2013, 07:55 AM
I ranted about that darn button a lot, but I don't see this happening here.
For me it resets pan (and volume) to the value set on the send faders, iow if I have pan at center in the send, then the MIDI reset will bring it back to center on playback start. Technical center of pan is CC10 64 plus CC42 0). I didn't test thoroughly, but I think only the CC10 part is sent from the reset caused by that button.

Hi gofer, we've discussed this before and I know you've mentioned that CC10=64 is standard center which is what I've always thought too.

However, Kontakt doesn't recognize it that way, CC10=64 sets the Pan to 1R (right 1)and CC10=63 sets it to 1L (left 1). The only way I know of to make Kontakt center is to do it manually. :(

Amazed
03-26-2013, 08:39 AM
Oh we are all clearly wrong because when you right click on it, the graphical depiction of a 5 pin din plug says 'close window on enter key' ??

Tooltips are clearly for the weak.

KenC
03-26-2013, 10:53 AM
It says that no matter where you click in the I/O dialog.

planetnine
03-26-2013, 03:49 PM
Straight from the man: There is a note to explain the "green meanie" in the next Up & Running manual.


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DarkStar
03-26-2013, 04:41 PM
... and in the User Guide?

PS It doesn't refresh properly either - you may need to close the IO window and re-open it to see the correct state.

Tod
03-26-2013, 04:53 PM
The worst thing about it is that when you select NONE in the audio and the little greeny comes up, that's when the VSTis are set, not necessarily when you hit play.

I think if you turn of the greeny before you assign the midi you'll probably be okay. :)

gofer
03-26-2013, 06:07 PM
Hi gofer, we've discussed this before and I know you've mentioned that CC10=64 is standard center which is what I've always thought too.

However, Kontakt doesn't recognize it that way, CC10=64 sets the Pan to 1R (right 1)and CC10=63 sets it to 1L (left 1). The only way I know of to make Kontakt center is to do it manually. :(

That's a Kontakt issue. Its instrument pan faders are not working conform to the MIDI specs. There doesn't seem to be any way to set them to dead center (0) via MIDI messages. Of course a range from 0 to 127 has no integer middle, but the MIDI specs clearly define that Pan MSB 64 (with LSB 0, if used) shall be considered center on pan (same with pitch). No chance for Reaper to deal with that issue properly. If it bothers you you'll need to contact NI about it.

The only way I am aware of to get an audio NONE send without having the button light up is to create it after tweaking the send defaults in preferences to not do audio on sends, as FnA mentioned in post #5. Jeffos made a set of SWS actions for that. I tried to come up with an after-the-fact solution via ReaScript, but you get them only from the receive track... far too backwards to be of much good :(.

That said the button doesn't pose much of a problem to me (other than being annoyed that there is this stupid behavior). I just don't set to audio [none] anyway. Kind of a pragmatic approach... It works for me because I don't have audio MIDI tracks which send their MIDI to elsewhere, only on instrument tracks where I usually do want to send audio (and don't care much if MIDI is sent as well).

I tried several times to get behind the working of MIDI track/send faders - just because they are there and I thought I should at least understand them - but gave up. I don't have hardware synths anymore, so I don't need those faders.
I wonder though, why there aren't much more questions about the MIDI faders in the forum I thought we'd get an avalanche of them back then in the v4 alpha cycle.

planetnine
03-26-2013, 06:18 PM
... and in the User Guide?

PS It doesn't refresh properly either - you may need to close the IO window and re-open it to see the correct state.


The U&R manual is the user guide. Isn't it? :confused:

The refresh issue is a bug and should be reported -I'll check this on my system tomorrow.

'night all...


>

ivansc
03-27-2013, 12:46 AM
Okay, I checked it out and you're right, it resets all the volumes and pans. :)

The worst part is that it leaves the Pans set R1 because there is no technical center with 128 midi values. :mad:


Whats wrong with 64? :D

DarkStar
03-27-2013, 03:07 AM
The U&R manual is the user guide. Isn't it? :confused:

The refresh issue is a bug and should be reported -I'll check this on my system tomorrow.

'night all...


>
Not yet reported as I do not get what it's meant to do / indicate.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=105430
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=934751

planetnine
03-27-2013, 09:00 AM
For want of a better name, it's called the "MIDI button".

It changes the volume send fader to be measured as MIDI data in the range 0 to 127 rather than as decibels.

I guess as another aspect of it's function, it sends that MIDI value to its destination on CC7. I guess it sends pan information too, although I don't know by which means (is there a CC No. for pan too? -I'm no MIDI-head)

This is all I know at the moment. I'm eagerly waiting any other contributions.


Edit: I can report some seemingly inconsistent behaviour; if I turn the audio in the send "off", the MIDI button turns green without changing the send to MIDI numbers. Press the button "off" and then "on" again set's the send into "MIDI number mode"

Can conform that the button sends the level on CC7 and the Pan Position on CC10.


>

jiff 41
03-27-2013, 10:11 AM
For want of a better name, it's called the "MIDI button".

17857
there is a mention in the manual?? :)

planetnine
03-27-2013, 11:33 AM
17857
there is a mention in the manual?? :)

Not the current one (or at least none of us, including the author can find it at the moment if it is), but there will be in the next one. What I've put up here is the gist of what is known; despite loitering here for seven or eight years, I can't remember when it was introduced :o


>

KenC
03-27-2013, 11:47 AM
I'd just like it to be off, and never turn anything on automatically.

I've turned all the little greenies of, and all of a sudden I notice my levels are off again, sure enough, on a couple of tracks it's on again.

I hate programs that tries to think for me and guess at what I want, they are always wrong.

Other examples of this is if you have "auto arm track" on by context clicking the arm button on a track. If you touch the arm button manually by mistake, all of a sudden that option is turned off, and I'm wondering why my track isn't arming automatically anymore.

Or adaptive grid depending on zoom level, if I set a grid division, it's because I wanted that grid division, if it's changed, _I_ want to be the one that does it.

Or worst of all adaptive menus (Just a general windows thing), instead of knowing where menu items are and being able to rely on muscle memory after a while, you now have to constantly look for where it's moved to. First thing that gets turned off.

Pet peeve of mine heh.

planetnine
03-27-2013, 11:51 AM
Do you know what might be triggering in on Ken? Something in its "logic" is set off by your workflow.


>

Ollie
03-27-2013, 11:59 AM
It's turned on by turning off audio on the send. If that's set by track defaults, it will come on on all new tracks I guess.

planetnine
03-27-2013, 12:30 PM
It's turned on by turning off audio on the send. If that's set by track defaults, it will come on on all new tracks I guess.

I got it to turn green by turning off the audio, but it didn't change the send values to MIDI -had to cycle it with the mouse to switch it from dBs to MIDI.

Is everything else we know about it the whole picture Ollie? What's it called? Does it just convert the send to MIDI mode?


>

Ollie
03-27-2013, 01:07 PM
It doesn't always refresh the send window, it's mentioned in section 12.4 of the manual and it's called "button" or "darn thing". :D You will rarely notice it when you leave the sends at their factory defaults. :)

planetnine
03-27-2013, 02:41 PM
It doesn't always refresh the send window, it's mentioned in section 12.4 of the manual and it's called "button" or "darn thing". :D You will rarely notice it when you leave the sends at their factory defaults. :)


Yes, that's it, I was searching for that for ages last night!



12.4 Controlling MIDI Data Sends

REAPER's sends and receives can be used with audio items, MIDI items, or both. You have already been introduced to this topic (Chapter 4), and it is covered in more depth in Chapter 15. Meanwhile, note that the button indicated on the right can be used to ensure that a send's fader controls
are used to control the MIDI data.

With this button enabled, CC messages for Volume (127, max) and Pan (64, center) are sent on the selected channels (by default, all channels). If there are any MIDI items (even empty ones) on the sending track, they are sent when transport starts or stops, or play position changes.



Note when the MIDI data, including the CC data can be sent.



>

jiff 41
03-27-2013, 11:20 PM
Yes, that's it, I was searching for that for ages last night!

Attachment 17857
there is a mention in the manual??

TOLD YOU!! :)

planetnine
03-28-2013, 03:04 AM
Sorry Jiff, you did. I hadn't realised that was a link, was running on fumes at that point I think -needed sleep.


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jiff 41
03-28-2013, 05:25 AM
It's just that I'm trying to get to grips with midi,which is tough going when I'm trying to learn everything else as well, & I had seen that green thing & wondered what it was for,& then everybody started writing about it! & I STILL don't know what it's for! :confused: :)
hey ho!

Nip
03-28-2013, 05:36 AM
It's just that I'm trying to get to grips with midi,which is tough going when I'm trying to learn everything else as well, & I had seen that green thing & wondered what it was for,& then everybody started writing about it! & I STILL don't know what it's for! :confused: :)
hey ho!

It's just for using fader and pan on TCP on midi part - if receiving midi device(VSTi) is supporting that. Unfortunately it's turned on by default if you turn off audio for the track.

Volume is most probably supported, but not always pan through midi.

Depending on instrument(synth/sampler) this can effect the sound you get, even timbre of sound. So having the midi track with it's clips/items - you can change behavior a bit with these controls.

jiff 41
03-28-2013, 05:47 AM
It's just for using fader and pan on TCP on midi part - if receiving midi device(VSTi) is supporting that. Unfortunately it's turned on by default if you turn off audio for the track.

Volume is most probably supported, but not always pan through midi.

Depending on instrument(synth/sampler) this can effect the sound you get, even timbre of sound. So having the midi track with it's clips/items - you can change behavior a bit with these controls.

Thanks Nip,
Doesn't mean much to me yet but,, now that I've got an explanation I know where to come to check it out if needed :)

moliere
07-29-2013, 04:25 AM
Just came across this myself, when the little green thingy stuffed up my VST settings (Olga) just by clicking it/changing audio to none. Not nice.

Dafinga
07-29-2013, 08:55 AM
It is Kontakt that is screwing up resetting volume and pan. The green button jsut allows Kontakt to send midi, as far as I know; but it shouldn't be sending stuff you don't tell it too. I used to have this same problem in Sonar - I'd often have to just delete my track and start again, that's how solutionless this problem was. I'd insert a new track and then it would work for some reason. If you Google it you will find many have this same problem - the general conclusion is it's a Kontakt issue.

Tod
07-29-2013, 09:44 AM
It is Kontakt that is screwing up resetting volume and pan. The green button jsut allows Kontakt to send midi, as far as I know; but it shouldn't be sending stuff you don't tell it too. I used to have this same problem in Sonar - I'd often have to just delete my track and start again, that's how solutionless this problem was. I'd insert a new track and then it would work for some reason. If you Google it you will find many have this same problem - the general conclusion is it's a Kontakt issue.

Humm, not sure what you mean Dafinga, the little green thingy is a Reaper thingy. :)

As far as I know Kontakt doesn't send anything anywhere, there may be some Kontakt instruments that do but not Kontakt itself. :confused:

Banned
08-04-2013, 06:21 AM
That evil little green monster should go die in a fire. :-/

Seriously, is there *anybody* who would want to control the volume of MIDI instruments by using the *send* controls on a sending track? Please explain, because I really don't understand why this was designed the way it was.

What if more than one track sends MIDI to the same destination track? Would the receiving track get spammed by multiple different CC# 7 / 10 values (i.e. total chaos)?

bradleyfilms
08-04-2013, 06:44 AM
Humm, not sure what you mean Dafinga, the little green thingy is a Reaper thingy. :)

As far as I know Kontakt doesn't send anything anywhere, there may be some Kontakt instruments that do but not Kontakt itself. :confused:
Hehe Tod
Have a look in Kontakt's Options->Engine and you'll find a set for sending MIDI into the outside world.
I have mine set for script generated stuff.
Steve

bradleyfilms
08-04-2013, 06:53 AM
What if more than one track sends MIDI to the same destination track? Would the receiving track get spammed by multiple different CC# 7 / 10 values (i.e. total chaos)?
Yup.
Personally I'd like the default to be "off" when sending MIDI.

This little green monster was a feature request, and sadly received more yeas than neas.
Steve

Tod
08-04-2013, 08:33 AM
Hehe Tod
Have a look in Kontakt's Options->Engine and you'll find a set for sending MIDI into the outside world.
I have mine set for script generated stuff.

Heh heh, hey Steve, I didn't know about that one. :)

However, in light of my reply to Dafinga's reply I don't think the little green thingy has anything to do with Kontakt sending CCs. :eek:

Of course if Kontakt is sending CC7 and CC10 with that option enabled and it's changing the Send controls, that's not good.

On the other hand, wouldn't having that option enabled conflict with sending CCs to Kontakt? :confused:

Heh heh, you've got my curiousity up now Steve. :)