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Alex Stone
11-21-2007, 10:33 AM
After taking the plunge and deciding to install linux on the box, alongside vista, i offer the following.

My install distro of choice was originally JAD, as much to support the efforts of people who are trying to bring together a total audio solution, as an interest in seeing how far linux has come.
Sadly, and i assume because of my inexperience with linux, I couldn't get this going at all. Install stalled, and wouldn't play with my amd64 dual core. Graphics vanished, and the programme just wouldn't play.
I continue to offer these chaps my support and encouragement, and hope that new linux users like me can, one day soon, have a relatively trouble free install of what seems to be a fine effort at giving us a complete audio solution. I wish them well.

I then turned to Ubuntu, and to the contrary of the above experience, it installed relatively painlessly.
(A note here. If you own an ATI graphics card, there is a known problem with the install and regular boot. At boot, simply hold down Ctrl+Alt+F2, or Alt+F2, and the graphics will work. Thanks to the chaps at JAD's forum for this tip.)

After install,i explored the distro fairly extensively in a short time, including running Reaper with an initial wine setup. My thanks go to Justin, Christophe and the reap team for their linux support. Reaper performed well, even with the horrendous latency that, after some internet perusing, seems to be almost accepted as part of the current Alsa infrastructure, without extensive tweaking and some degree of linux knowledge.
All attempts on my part to install and configure wineasio failed, and despite some late night sessions trawling the net for info, i failed to get this working, or even seen in the programme.

I rather enjoyed the speed and smooth operation of the standard ubuntu package (7.10), and decided to uninstall that and go for the audio,vid specific package UbuntuStudio.(7.10)

Again, a fairly easy install, and i was mildly impressed with the range of audio and vid programmes available. Linux has come a long way since our last meeting some years ago.
Again, Ubuntu Studio has, and relative to the alsa challenges, is,performing well. No crashes to date, and it boots and performs quite a deal faster than win. (I'm using the amd 64bit version.)

But again, i face difficulties with the wineasio setup. According to US, it's installed, and i can see it in the wine folder. It shows up in Reaper as an asio option, but with no ins and outs to choose from. It doesn't show up in wine config (nor does jack, but i'm betting i've yet to set that up properly as well.)
To my delight, even with these ongoing challenges, most of my VST's show up in Reaper on Ubuntu, and work well with no noticeable degradation of performance over Win.
As i'm predominately a midi and vst user, this isn't quite so bad, as i can adjust audio device settings when playing back or rendering,but it's still disconcerting, to say the least. I hope to sort this out over the next week or so, with some hard study, and hopefully some input from those linux gurus who so generously share their time and expertise.

So, for an initial gambit, and in my humble and limited linux experience, pretty ok so far. Reaper performs well with UBStudio, and continues my ongoing respect for this programme and it's developers. It's not only good, but tough, and adaptable too.

Now I'm going back to the linux/wine/asio audio setup journey............

Just two roubles worth.

Alex.

p.s. Shup works in Ubuntu/wine as well.
Excellent.



EDIT 1/1/2008:: A big thank you to Justin, Christophe, and the Reaper team for allowing this thread to grow, and, in a sense, mature. It hasn't always been directly related toward Reaper, yet it still.....lives, lol.
Cheers chaps, your openminded perspective is much appreciated. I'm learning much from all the input, and i hope others interested in the topics we're discussing get something out of it too.

Great attitude.

charles.monteiro
11-21-2007, 10:48 AM
Alex, thanks for the post. I've been contemplating putting Linux on my PowerMac G4 500mhz dual processor for which I need to at least jack up the ram. I was wondering what distro to try , I guess I'll check the ubuntu studio, hopefully they have a PowerMac port.

404NotFound
11-21-2007, 11:22 AM
Is the Jack server running? Did you run

regsvr32 wineasio.dll

after installing wineasio?

Alex Stone
11-21-2007, 11:25 AM
Is the Jack server running? Did you run

regsvr32 wineasio.dll

after installing wineasio?

404, yes i did. Wineasio shows up in Reaper/wine as an Asio audio device, but i get an error message telling me there's a prob.
The Jack server runs without RT, but with RT it stops soon after it's started.

Message reads:cannot send request type 7 to server
cannot read result for request type 7 from server (Broken pipe)
cannot send request type 7 to server
cannot read result for request type 7 from server (Broken pipe)
jackd: no process killed.

Alex.

Zargon the Destroyer
11-21-2007, 11:30 AM
Funny!

I've been battling with Ubuntu (with a view to using Ardour) over the last few days, but ultimately the fact that it's a HUGE PAIN IN THE ARSE to get dual monitors running (with an ATI card) has put me off.

The Ubuntu desktop (with the flashy cube thing) is simply awesome for about 20 minutes until it gets boring.

I uninstalled. Probably try again if they ever get dual head stuff running without requiring huge config editing.

A word of warning, if you're running grub (for booting), uninstalling (Ubuntu) will break your master boot record and you'll need to repair it using the XP/Vista disc.

404NotFound
11-21-2007, 12:03 PM
@Alex:

The Jack behaviour you reported is quite strange. Seems like you aren't running a realtime-capable kernel, but since you installed UStudio, that kernel must be running by default... I must admit that I have no experiences with 64bit systems, so your problems can also be related to your amd64 system. I heard somewhere that wine wouldn't even run on 64bit PCs, but this seems to be wrong ;) Just post your problems to the Ubuntu forums, they're pretty good.

@Zargon:

I also had problems with dualhead since the Gutsy update, but I figured out that it has become ridiculously simple - one tweak in the xorg.conf (set virtual screen size to an appropriate value) and one command (xrandr --output VGA [or whatever] --right-of LVDS [or whatever else]).

@Charles:

Ubuntu is available for PowerPC, but wine (and Reaper) will never run on it.

nyarla
11-21-2007, 01:23 PM
In Winecfg you have to set the audio to alsa anyway, according to the wineasio instructions (or was it the JACK instructions? i forget)..

I recently installed Ubuntu as well (not the studio version or anything, just the regular one), and have managed to get REAPER working with JACK/wineasio alright. I installed the realtime kernel, but JACK doesn't work with the "realtime" box checked. It gives "cannot use real-time scheduling (FIFO at priority 10) [for thread -1210099008, from thread -1210099008] (1: Operation not permitted). cannot create engine"

REAPER runs alright, though the graphics are very slow to update (even when WINE is set to emulate virtual desktop). Every time I use scrollbars or open a window, the sound starts breaking up.. I usually have to hit stop and play, and then it's fine again.

This is all using my laptop's onboard sound btw, my audio interface doesn't work in linux.

I'm not sure if the audio breakup and slow gfx are because I have something setup incorrectly, or if it's just because my pc is a bit old.. (pentium-m 1.86ghz, 1gb, 64mb ati x300).

So i'll keep tweaking it and see what happens..

pipelineaudio
11-21-2007, 01:33 PM
^&& $*&*% %(&* ^)( &)*(&)*( &_&_ &* &_*&* &_(*& %( $*& ^(*% )_&* (

I installed ubuntu for like the 20th time this week this morning...had it pretty good last nite, running reaper, but some part of that tinfoil hat wearing paranoiac insanity security system borked my install

I did a image of it so now I got a fresh one, lets cross fingers... I hope we see line6 drivers soon. I tried the experimental one with no luck but

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/12342/1071022154959-IMAGE_123-OpenOffice.org-Draw.png

nyarla
11-21-2007, 01:39 PM
Hmm, just figured out that running JACKcontrol as root lets me enable the realtime option - but then REAPER doesn't list any i/o under ASIO audio device... so I guess maybe the realtime option isn't meant to be checked? I never actually read anything saying it was meant to be, just thought maybe it would help..

(sorry, just replying to myself really, got no answers for anyone else's REAPER-in-linux probs) :)

nyarla
11-21-2007, 02:16 PM
ok, replying to myself again, but perhaps this will help someone?

got REAPER working properly with the "realtime" option in JACK by running both JACK and WINE with sudo.. (running them as the root user). If you weren't already doing that, give it a try.. it's running a lot better here now! Yay!

running it as a normal user I got a similar problem to Alex Stone - REAPER lists wineasio, but no I/Os..



[edit]
Just ignore me! Guys on irc told me how to change the config so that JACK works in realtime mode as a normal user. Probably better than running it as root i guess. :)

Alex Stone
11-21-2007, 03:36 PM
After some concerted effort, and a lot of help from chaps far smarter with linux than i, it seems wineasio build 0.5, isn't built for amd64, in 64bit.
Not sure if this can be modded or, bluntly, i've missed something, but a heads up for those who might try this, and not understand why it doesn't want to compile or install.

Many many thanks to Woot, Nya,and Jack for the help with Jack. A successful collaboration, that has Jack in UbuntuStudio down to 3-4ms in the latest rt kernel, with an onboard soundcard. Your help is much appreciated fellas.


Alex.
:)

Jack Winter
11-21-2007, 03:56 PM
ok, replying to myself again, but perhaps this will help someone?

got REAPER working properly with the "realtime" option in JACK by running both JACK and WINE with sudo.. (running them as the root user). If you weren't already doing that, give it a try.. it's running a lot better here now! Yay!

running it as a normal user I got a similar problem to Alex Stone - REAPER lists wineasio, but no I/Os..



[edit]
Just ignore me! Guys on irc told me how to change the config so that JACK works in realtime mode as a normal user. Probably better than running it as root i guess. :)

For the people that weren't on irc. once you install the linux-rt kernel, you should read the following instructions to give jack access to the RT kernel: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation

As per advice from wOOt, i changes the priority of jack to 89, and checked soft mode. Made a world of difference to me. Screen redraws are much snappier.

I was running EZdrummer & GR3 on a P4 3GHz tonight with 6ms latency!

StudioDave
11-22-2007, 05:37 AM
Always nice to see someone jump on the ship. Welcome aboard, and please let me know if you need any specific help with Linux. I've been using it since ~1995, it's been my main OS since 1999, and I do all my music and sound production on it. Typically I use native tools (Ardour, JOST, various synths & plugins), but I like a lot of the VST/VSTi plugins I've run with Reaper, so I feel I'm getting the best of both worlds by being able to use Reaper under Linux. :)

Anyway, yes, there's a bunch of Linux Reaperites here, they seem like good people, ready to assist. And if you're in the mood to read some articles about Linux music and sound software :

http://www.linuxjournal.com/user/800764/track

Have fun. :)

StudioDave
11-22-2007, 05:48 AM
After some concerted effort, and a lot of help from chaps far smarter with linux than i, it seems wineasio build 0.5, isn't built for amd64, in 64bit.
Not sure if this can be modded or, bluntly, i've missed something, but a heads up for those who might try this, and not understand why it doesn't want to compile or install.

One problem is that you can't connect to a 64-bit JACK from a 32-bit instance of wineasio. This problem may be resolved sometime soon, maybe not. Meanwhile, you can build Wine and wineasio for 64-bits. I've not experimented with any 64-bit native Windows music and sound software, sorry.

For perspective: I run Reaper on a JAD box (2.4 GHz) with OpenSUSE 10.2, with Wine and wineasio for a reported latency between 2 to 6 ms. I run Reaper on my 64 Studio box (2 GHz) with a 32-bit build of Wine but without wineasio and get a much higher latency report (between 24 and 164 ms). Sound hardware is the same for both machines (M-Audio Delta 66), and both systems are configured for realtime kernel performance.

Alex Stone
11-22-2007, 06:35 AM
Dave, i'd read a good deal of your fine work before i even set foot in the linux audio door, lol.
And after the 64bit experiment, i decided to D/L the 32bit version and install that. No probs, and lo and behold, wineasio comes up, Reaper takes off, and latency drops to between a comfortable 6-10ms (onboard soundcard). Only 4 vsti's fail to fire, and although i'm getting some twitching in two others, everything seems to be stable and playing ok. So far so good with UbuntuStudio 32bit.

Dave, any help will be appreciated.
Alex.

:)

BoxOfSnoo
11-22-2007, 07:10 AM
...Typically I use native tools (Ardour, JOST, various synths & plugins), but I like a lot of the VST/VSTi plugins I've run with Reaper, so I feel I'm getting the best of both worlds by being able to use Reaper under Linux. :)


Ooh, JOST looks cool. Can you actually route audio out of Reaper, into JOST and back?

Must try.

404NotFound
11-22-2007, 07:21 AM
Of course you can - that's the advantage of the whole linux audio thing ;)

StudioDave
11-22-2007, 07:37 AM
Dave, i'd read a good deal of your fine work before i even set foot in the linux audio door, lol.

:)

... after the 64bit experiment, i decided to D/L the 32bit version and install that. No probs, and lo and behold, wineasio comes up, Reaper takes off, and latency drops to between a comfortable 6-10ms (onboard soundcard).

That's pretty impressive. Onboard soundchips don't usually perform so well under Linux.

Only 4 vsti's fail to fire, and although i'm getting some twitching in two others, everything seems to be stable and playing ok. So far so good with UbuntuStudio 32bit.

Dave, any help will be appreciated.


Check the compatibility database for more information about running specific VST/VSTi plugins under Linux :

http://ladspavst.linuxaudio.org/

Lots of helpful info there. Alas, some just don't work and probably never will.

Alex, thanks for the report re: Ubuntu. I'm getting contradictory reports about it, some folks love it, some hate it. I'm wedded to Debian these days in 64 Studio and OpenSUSE in JAD, and it's unlikely I'll have any chance soon to try Ubunutu Studio, so I appreciate the saga of your efforts. :)

BoxOfSnoo
11-22-2007, 07:43 AM
^&& $*&*% %(&* ^)( &)*(&)*( &_&_ &* &_*&* &_(*& %( $*& ^(*% )_&* (



Ahh I see the problem there. You're missing a few close parentheses. Otherwise perl should parse that OK.


I did a image of it so now I got a fresh one, lets cross fingers... I hope we see line6 drivers soon. I tried the experimental one with no luck but


I got the driver for my PODxt working quite a while back, is it the USB audio/control thing you're hoping for, or something like GearBox? We could probably figure out the former, not so sure about the latter... unless you just run GearBox under wine.

Zargon the Destroyer
11-22-2007, 07:44 AM
@Zargon:

I also had problems with dualhead since the Gutsy update, but I figured out that it has become ridiculously simple - one tweak in the xorg.conf (set virtual screen size to an appropriate value) and one command (xrandr --output VGA [or whatever] --right-of LVDS [or whatever else]).


Hmmm. I tried and failed a number of times - I think it might be my specific card (9250)...

BoxOfSnoo
11-22-2007, 07:49 AM
Of course you can - that's the advantage of the whole linux audio thing ;)

Other than the completely free OS, and run headless, and stuff like that :)

I've always wondered what it would take to make your own guitar/vocal effects processor with a linux box, like a rack unit or even something like a Mac mini form factor.

CF card (or USB drive) booting, USB or Firewire inputs so you can use your own interface, MIDI I/O, LCD display... If it can be done for about the price of a PODxt (or X3) it would be a superb alternative! Of course it would need to run ReaPlugs somehow.

Sounds like a good LJ article.

Alex Stone
11-22-2007, 09:56 AM
UbuntuStudio 32bit is really starting to settle in now, and after figuring out how to install win progs into wine (doh) a few of my fallback favourites have responded, and others have died.
Ce La vie. :P
Wineasio with Jack is pretty impressive. Further tweaking, and i've found that 'sweet spot' that we all lust for, and never appears to be in the same place from one comp to the next.
After an inital hiccup with a ttf-opensymbol file not working properly, (and my reinstalling from the net after dumping the cd-rom build of that file), everything's going well. The latency from my modest onboard card is even better with linux, than i ever enjoyed in vista32. Some food for thought there, for me at least.

I'm still a new user at installing from the terminal,and the file structure, and downloaded location, has me scratching my head from time to time, but slowly and surely the lights are coming on the grey matter. I'll continue to persue this, and thanks to all who have contributed for the tips, stories of woe, and links.

Dave, the vst list is enlightening to say the least, and i never dreamed half of the successful vst's would perform as they do. Credit to the devs of wine and wineasio. I hope to post pics soon, as soon as i figure out how to get shup and stashbox working properly, and maybe some of my mistakes will serve as a visual prompt forsuggestions and ways to avoid crashing and burning (which fortunately i've managed to avoid so far.)

I'll keep posting observations from the perspective of a new linux user, and i hope, embittered old tuxheads aside :), that those who may be interested get something from this thread, and put their toe in the linux pond with a little more confidence.

(Note: The graphic issue at boot with ATI drivers is present in the 32bit version of ubuntu gusty 7.10, as well. And the Alt+F2 trick at boot works for this version too, so all is not lost.)

Alex.

404NotFound
11-22-2007, 10:53 AM
@Zargon:

Hmmm, I've already heard from others that the 9250 isn't exactly the best choice for Linux graphics... Maybe you should give Linux another try when you need a new card.

@BoxOfSnoo:

You'll be surprised if you read the story behind the JS FX: http://www.jesusonic.com/ ;)

@Alex:

Good to know that everything works for you now. If you run into problems, just ask here.

BoxOfSnoo
11-22-2007, 03:12 PM
@BoxOfSnoo:

You'll be surprised if you read the story behind the JS FX: http://www.jesusonic.com/ ;)


Yeah I knew about that. Is it Linux though? I'd like something a bit smaller, of course. It doesn't need a footswitch if it has MIDI too.

pipelineaudio
11-22-2007, 03:43 PM
I got the driver for my PODxt working quite a while back, is it the USB audio/control thing you're hoping for, or something like GearBox? We could probably figure out the former, not so sure about the latter... unless you just run GearBox under wine.

As long as I can use it as an I/O it would be great

Otherwise I gotta deal with two sets of speakers on my laptop

BONUS if the midi controller from the keyboard would work but first things first

Alex Stone
11-22-2007, 10:34 PM
First challenge in wine.
Got a font not displaying correctly. (See ruler and transport bar)
Any clues as to how to fix this would be appreciated.

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/53181/fontproblem.png

Alex

p.s. Sorry about the lack of pic, and the link. Still trying to get shup to play in linux.

StudioDave
11-23-2007, 05:16 AM
First challenge in wine.
Got a font not displaying correctly. (See ruler and transport bar)
Any clues as to how to fix this would be appreciated.

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/53181/fontproblem.png

Alex

p.s. Sorry about the lack of pic, and the link. Still trying to get shup to play in linux.

Alex, I'm not at home right now, and I couldn't view your pic. However, font problems can be resolved in Wine fairly easily. Have you used the winecfg utility yet ? IIRC there's also a default font that you should put in ~/.wine (but don't quote me yet on that).

I'll be home later today, will contact you then about the font.

BoxOfSnoo
11-23-2007, 08:15 AM
As long as I can use it as an I/O it would be great

Otherwise I gotta deal with two sets of speakers on my laptop

BONUS if the midi controller from the keyboard would work but first things first

Ubuntu has an old "podxtpro" driver installed. Did you use that or grab the newer one from www.tanzband-scream.at/line6/

Walk through that installation - especially the Ubuntu "gotcha" and you can PM me your issues, maybe we'll work it out.

MIDI-USB is another thing, I got my M-Audio Oxygen 8 working at one point, and it might be the same procedure.

Alex Stone
11-23-2007, 08:21 AM
Alex, I'm not at home right now, and I couldn't view your pic. However, font problems can be resolved in Wine fairly easily. Have you used the winecfg utility yet ? IIRC there's also a default font that you should put in ~/.wine (but don't quote me yet on that).

I'll be home later today, will contact you then about the font.

Dave, your help would be much appreciated. All the dots. are showing up as 'mi' if that means anything, among other little glitches here and there.

On the thoroughly bright side though, i haven't turned Jack on all day, just reap with a few orchestral VST's. It's running fine on the wineasio driver, and latency is down to 5ms. (with the rt kernel loaded.)
That's a tad over my vista latency norm (4ms), but the sound quality has improved. I have no idea why, but please don't construe this as a complaint.
Far from it!!
:)

Alex.

Laika
11-23-2007, 08:43 AM
, but the sound quality has improved. I have no idea why, but please don't construe this as a complaint.
Far from it!!
:)

Alex.


I know some very very respectable mastering engeneers that swear the Mac sounds better than Windows............ my friend doesn't also understand why, but he swears it does.

I allways thought: "inpossible, it's the soundcard and drivers".
Your statement really shocked me

Tallisman
11-23-2007, 10:05 AM
On the thoroughly bright side though, i haven't turned Jack on all day, just reap with a few orchestral VST's. It's running fine on the wineasio driver, and latency is down to 5ms. (with the rt kernel loaded.)
Alex.

Ummm I am confused by this. I though Jack Control was needed. I can get reaper going in Ubuntu Studio with the JC latency at ~6ms but playback is flakey especially when scrolling...

Am I understanding you correctly? You are using WineAsio without Jack running? I seem to get nothing like that. I will try tonight when I get home, but I'd appreciate a repro here :D

I feel like such a bewb errrm I mean newb in linux, it is all so fun though. I have my Tomboy notes up collecting a list of terminal commands I seem to be using lots... but what does the tar zxvf wineasio-0.1.tar.gz zxvf mean?

looking for linux for dummies,

.t

plush2
11-23-2007, 10:52 AM
Hey Talisman, I can empathize and sympathize fully. If you want the skinny on pretty much any of those command line applications try typing for example "man tar" if you want to learn details about the tar program. This is just another command line app called "man" that shows a text manual for the selected application and just about all of them have one as opposed to the --help tag which doesn't always bring up useful information. When you're done reading the "man page" (the common term for these) then you can exit using ctrl-z (I think, I'm not on linux right now). I used to avoid opening man pages because I didn't know how to close them when I was done. I would kill the whole terminal and start again....hehe.

BoxOfSnoo
11-23-2007, 11:04 AM
... but what does the tar zxvf wineasio-0.1.tar.gz zxvf mean?



tar - Tape Archiver (forget the tape part. It sews up files into a single one.

xzvf - eXtract, gZipped, Verbose, from File...

filename.tar.gz - shows there is a tar archive that is also compressed. This is typically 2 processes in Unix, it's a bit more efficient and sometimes tar doesn't really need or want compression, and compression is sometimes only a single file, so why use an archiver?

Sometimes you come across bzip2ed files - it's a tighter compression. In that case use xjvf instead of xzvf

BoxOfSnoo
11-23-2007, 11:05 AM
Hey Talisman, I can empathize and sympathize fully. If you want the skinny on pretty much any of those command line applications try typing for example "man tar" if you want to learn details about the tar program. This is just another command line app called "man" that shows a text manual for the selected application and just about all of them have one as opposed to the --help tag which doesn't always bring up useful information. When you're done reading the "man page" (the common term for these) then you can exit using ctrl-z (I think, I'm not on linux right now). I used to avoid opening man pages because I didn't know how to close them when I was done. I would kill the whole terminal and start again....hehe.

Ctrl-Z puts processes in the background. fg brings them back.

man will run the text through your pager, usually "less". Press q to exit.

Also worth noting, / will start a search, space is page forward, and b is page backwards.

Tallisman
11-23-2007, 11:34 AM
thanks to the both of you.
I am swimming in a new paradigm here.
I feel like a fish out of water.

:D
t.

chip mcdonald
11-23-2007, 11:34 AM
I did a image of it so now I got a fresh one, lets cross fingers... I hope we see line6 drivers soon.

frick, I saw your image and thought "hey, I've been just using my TonePort instead of the MOTU recently... I should try UBuntu now"...

Oh well.

chip mcdonald
11-23-2007, 11:38 AM
I got the driver for my PODxt working quite a while back,

This is with a "vanilla" UBuntu install? I'm hoping to get an XTLive shortly, but for now it'd be cool if I could get my TonePort to work....

Are you taking a performance hit using the XT with Reaper under UBuntu? Since it's emulated, I presume VSTs work the same...?

Alex Stone
11-23-2007, 12:27 PM
Ok, after a day of exploration, i finally managed to get this sorted out, so Dave, relax, lol. Turns out it's a identifiable bug that can be fixed by 'touching' the related files. (something to do with timestamping i think.)


The saga continues......

p.s. Yes Talli, i'm running wineasio without jack. Works.
Don't ask me why, cos i'm as much in the dark with linux as you are, lol. I got lucky, and grateful for that.

Alex.

BoxOfSnoo
11-23-2007, 12:34 PM
This is with a "vanilla" UBuntu install? I'm hoping to get an XTLive shortly, but for now it'd be cool if I could get my TonePort to work....

Are you taking a performance hit using the XT with Reaper under UBuntu? Since it's emulated, I presume VSTs work the same...?

I don't have Ubuntu, I'm a die-hard Debian user :)

I'm not sure if TonePorts will work... if it does, it will just be a USB interface. The advantage of the XTs are that they are all processed onboard, so again, it's just USB-Audio. No processing hit at all, in that case. Come to think of it, I don't know if I've used the XT and Reaper on wine all together, though I know I used them separately. Gimme a bit and I'll try it.

I'm not sure if GearBox (the tone-processing version for TonePorts, not the patch-management version for XTs) will work under wine, but you can try.

BoxOfSnoo
11-23-2007, 01:12 PM
OK, I tested it. Yes, it works, with the following gotchas.

At first I couldn't get the frame size below 1024. JACK just wouldn't start. I also wanted to try setting different devices for input and output, but it didn't like that. I couldn't get it to detect the device without JACK running. I suspect it's an issue with permissions, seeing as I'm running it as a user and not root.

Update: I added "kdesu" in front of the command line for both qjackctl and reaper and it came up with 512 samples! Can I go lower yet?

Update 2: Woohoo! 256 samples if I check off "realtime". This requires running as root or the kdesu command.

Alex Stone
11-23-2007, 02:29 PM
Ummm I am confused by this. I though Jack Control was needed. I can get reaper going in Ubuntu Studio with the JC latency at ~6ms but playback is flakey especially when scrolling...

Am I understanding you correctly? You are using WineAsio without Jack running? I seem to get nothing like that. I will try tonight when I get home, but I'd appreciate a repro here :D

I feel like such a bewb errrm I mean newb in linux, it is all so fun though. I have my Tomboy notes up collecting a list of terminal commands I seem to be using lots... but what does the tar zxvf wineasio-0.1.tar.gz zxvf mean?

looking for linux for dummies,

.t

Talli my friend, this may well be the blind leading the blind, but the latest wineasio release is 0.15. And maybe that's the reason the performance has improved for me.

If you follow the link to the ubuntu preparation site that Jack posted, the 'sudo echo' commands can be cut and pasted into the terminal (one at a time then 'enter.') Makes a big difference, imho.

I'm sure there are more detailed tweaks that can be done, by far more experienced chaps than I, but these did make a difference.
I've eased the latency back to 8-10ms, to accomodate several VST's loaded at once. Works a treat.


Alex.

:)

Alex Stone
11-23-2007, 05:22 PM
After more research, and tweak testing, here's Reap running on it's own without Jack, just using wineasio, playing 'brad sucks' without a pop or crackle or any limitation or sluggishness at all, and stable.
Reassigning rtc and onboard soundcard irq priority helped here quite a bit.

I'm of a mind to enjoy this pic for a while, and marvel at the fact that linux can do so well for latency. :)

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/12427/lowlatency.png

Had 19 big orchestral vst's playing today at 5-7ms without a prob. (Yes, they installed in wine and played back, without a issue.)
For me, Reaper performs as well or better in Ubuntustudio, than Vista32, or 64, and both of those did well, with stable results. (Onboard sound, HDA nvidia, alsa mixer. Hehe, go figure.)

Impressive stuff, imho.

Alex.

JasonTheron
11-23-2007, 10:03 PM
Alex:
So would you recommend using UbuntuStudio to anyone who was considering building a new machine over say an OS like XP or Vista?

Jack Winter
11-24-2007, 03:23 AM
Ummm I am confused by this. I though Jack Control was needed. I can get reaper going in Ubuntu Studio with the JC latency at ~6ms but playback is flakey especially when scrolling...

Am I understanding you correctly? You are using WineAsio without Jack running? I seem to get nothing like that. I will try tonight when I get home, but I'd appreciate a repro here :D

I feel like such a bewb errrm I mean newb in linux, it is all so fun though. I have my Tomboy notes up collecting a list of terminal commands I seem to be using lots... but what does the tar zxvf wineasio-0.1.tar.gz zxvf mean?

looking for linux for dummies,

.t

Pipe & alex. I see the same thing here regarding jackd, but the truth of the matter is that the jackd demon is started automatically. I don't know how, but I suppose that wineasio requests it & somehow the system starts the jackd demon. Easily verified by running "ps -A" which will show jackd running. So you can use qjackctl to set latency, then start the demon, stop it, from then on it should be automatically started when you run reaper. No need to run qjackctl anymore...

You can also edit ~/.jackdrc manually, it contains the startup parameters.

Jack Winter
11-24-2007, 03:32 AM
OK, I tested it. Yes, it works, with the following gotchas.

At first I couldn't get the frame size below 1024. JACK just wouldn't start. I also wanted to try setting different devices for input and output, but it didn't like that. I couldn't get it to detect the device without JACK running. I suspect it's an issue with permissions, seeing as I'm running it as a user and not root.

Update: I added "kdesu" in front of the command line for both qjackctl and reaper and it came up with 512 samples! Can I go lower yet?

Update 2: Woohoo! 256 samples if I check off "realtime". This requires running as root or the kdesu command.

In order to run jackd with rt access there are a few things you have to do. Running things as root is commonly accepted as a bad idea. Try to edit /etc/security/limits.conf as root & add the following lines:

@audio - rtprio 95
@audio - memlock 512000
@audio - nice -19

This will give jackd access to the rt kernel, and you can then run it as your normal user login!

StudioDave
11-24-2007, 05:52 AM
Hi everyone,

Alex, you can't run wineasio without JACK, so your system is probably launching JACK without you knowing about it. As JW mentioned, you can run the top or ps utilities to see what processes are currently active, and I'll wager you'll see jackd somewhere in those listings. Meanwhile, if the system is working well for you, don't muck with it. :)

Some of the multimedia distros (such as 64 Studio) arm JACK immediately, assuming that what the 64 Studio user wants is to get working asap. The only thing left for the user is to get JACK's settings perfected for the user's hardware.

And as JW also mentioned, don't run normal applications as the root user, especially if you're on a network. Running as root exposes your system to malicious hackers, and you should be able to get high performance as a normal user.

JW, wineasio will not start jackd on its own, though it would be nice if it looked for JACK first and loaded it if it wasn't running. Much of Linux runs from various scripts, many of which can be found and viewed in the /etc directory. JACK is likely started there during the boot process.

Finally, if there's a wineasio 0.15 that's probably news to the JAD maintainers. The last known release was 0.5, and I hope the Ubuntu devels aren't just going ahead with their own development without working with the JAD guys. Bad mojo when that happens.

BoxOfSnoo
11-24-2007, 06:05 AM
In order to run jackd with rt access there are a few things you have to do. Running things as root is commonly accepted as a bad idea. Try to edit /etc/security/limits.conf as root & add the following lines:

@audio - rtprio 95
@audio - memlock 512000
@audio - nice -19

This will give jackd access to the rt kernel, and you can then run it as your normal user login!

Ah cool, never saw that before!

Running as root isn't necessarily a bad idea! I'd rather run privileged applications as root than grant very loose permissions to my regular user account. Logging in as root, bad idea. Running X as root, very bad idea.

Newbies - be careful with root. Very dangerous.

Alex Stone
11-24-2007, 07:08 AM
Hi everyone,

Alex, you can't run wineasio without JACK, so your system is probably launching JACK without you knowing about it. As JW mentioned, you can run the top or ps utilities to see what processes are currently active, and I'll wager you'll see jackd somewhere in those listings. Meanwhile, if the system is working well for you, don't muck with it. :)

Some of the multimedia distros (such as 64 Studio) arm JACK immediately, assuming that what the 64 Studio user wants is to get working asap. The only thing left for the user is to get JACK's settings perfected for the user's hardware.

And as JW also mentioned, don't run normal applications as the root user, especially if you're on a network. Running as root exposes your system to malicious hackers, and you should be able to get high performance as a normal user.

JW, wineasio will not start jackd on its own, though it would be nice if it looked for JACK first and loaded it if it wasn't running. Much of Linux runs from various scripts, many of which can be found and viewed in the /etc directory. JACK is likely started there during the boot process.

Finally, if there's a wineasio 0.15 that's probably news to the JAD maintainers. The last known release was 0.5, and I hope the Ubuntu devels aren't just going ahead with their own development without working with the JAD guys. Bad mojo when that happens.

And that's my mistake dave. It is 0.5.
After using the checking tools, i found out Jack is running, and seems to be instigated at boot. Snoo, i'm not changing anything else at ths point!
:)



Alex.

Jack Winter
11-24-2007, 04:39 PM
Ah cool, never saw that before!

Running as root isn't necessarily a bad idea! I'd rather run privileged applications as root than grant very loose permissions to my regular user account. Logging in as root, bad idea. Running X as root, very bad idea.

Newbies - be careful with root. Very dangerous.

I disagree, it is bad! Just do what you have to do, and then get out of there. You can give an application access to what it needs, but there is no need to give it the possibility to wipe out your system. In the above case all you need to do, is to give the audio user group access to rt privs.

root can wipe out or corrupt your whole system.

BoxOfSnoo
11-24-2007, 05:15 PM
I disagree, it is bad! Just do what you have to do, and then get out of there. You can give an application access to what it needs, but there is no need to give it the possibility to wipe out your system. In the above case all you need to do, is to give the audio user group access to rt privs.

root can wipe out or corrupt your whole system.

I think we're talking about the same thing, actually!

I use "su" to get to a bash prompt when I need to apt-get upgrade, load modules, install compiled apps, change permissions and stuff like that. I never log in as root, unless I'm just setting up the system. "kdesu" lets you have permissions ONLY for the application that runs immediately after. Unless *that application* is going to hose your system, there aren't really any other significant ways that it's a mistake.

Not that there aren't enough ways to hose your system, of course.

Another tip for the newbies: if you're going to do something that might possibly mess up your system (including a recursive delete) when running as root, type the command, and *sit on your hands* for 10 full seconds while you look at the command, before you press enter. It's way to easy to type /dev/hda when you meant /dev/hdb, and yeah I've messed up my partition table a couple of times...

Jack Winter
11-24-2007, 05:26 PM
I think we're talking about the same thing, actually!

I use "su" to get to a bash prompt when I need to apt-get upgrade, load modules, install compiled apps, change permissions and stuff like that. I never log in as root, unless I'm just setting up the system. "kdesu" lets you have permissions ONLY for the application that runs immediately after. Unless *that application* is going to hose your system, there aren't really any other significant ways that it's a mistake.


That is the way I see it too. Use sudo to run the command that requires root access. Letting an application run as root opens you up to a lot of potential grief.

If you didn't see the above setup stuff for the audio group, this will possibly be of interest to you: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation

Alex Stone
12-05-2007, 02:26 AM
As a further update to my original post, i offer the following.

After a few reinstalls for user error, ubuntustudio is now stable and ticking along rather swimmingly. Reaper is running well with Wine, at an average of 5ms, with slightly more (8-10ms) for a full orchestral template. (Ubuntustudio 32bit.)
Nearly all the VST's are working too, with Gigasampler3 being the notable exception, but then that sampler was problematic in Windows at times, as well.

I have further question for the linux wizards, and that's concerning memory limits. I seem to hit the low memory warning a little earlier than i've expected in Win, and i'm wondering if there's a command or config setting that will enable me to set a higher limit, or determine what the current limit is.. (I have 4GB of Ram)

And a heads up at this point for a couple of linux notation editors that are growing, like Reaper, and are already proving rather useful.

Muse Score, and Canorus, both of which i'm running in UbuntuStudio. I'm not sure if these programmes are precompiled for other distros.

More to come.

Alex.

bullshark
12-05-2007, 02:57 AM
Well, I gotta say I admire you guy's patience and dedication. I've tried UnbutuStudio last week-end, and I couldn't even get a desktop with it, all I got was a Dos type command line prompt that I couldn't even begin to understand what to do with. Trying to read online "instructions" was an exercise in futility as I didn't even understand the words they used in writing them instruction, probably written in programmer slang or somesuch.

You guy's are programmer by trade?

StudioDave
12-05-2007, 04:57 AM
You guy's are programmer by trade?

I don't know about the other users, but I'm a professional musician, have been for almost 45 years (I'll be 57 in January).

You're right though, Linux can be a terribly confusing and frustrating experience. Despite all the efforts that have gone into making it friendlier it remains problematic for many new users. I think a lot has to do with your distro of choice *and* the amount of time you have to get into using Linux. It's definitely not a variant of Windows or the Mac (which is actually more like a variant of Linux now ;) ), and that means there's potentially a lot of new stuff to learn.

I usually advise interested folks to try the live CDs before you try to install a system. Good choices include the Dynebolic, MusiX, and 64 Studio live discs, but there are others that might be more appealing. You can't beat their cost ($0.00 + download), and you don't need to bother your existing installation.

BoxOfSnoo
12-05-2007, 05:52 AM
I have further question for the linux wizards, and that's concerning memory limits. I seem to hit the low memory warning a little earlier than i've expected in Win, and i'm wondering if there's a command or config setting that will enable me to set a higher limit, or determine what the current limit is.. (I have 4GB of Ram)


The command is ulimit. Try ulimit -a to see what limits are set.

Check the man page or google for details, you don't just tell it "memory" but limit things like locked memory or resident memory, stuff like that.

Alex Stone
12-05-2007, 05:52 AM
Another follow up, and another question for the L wizards.

I'm attempting to use Qsampler, and all attempts so far have failed. At each instigation of the program, i get 'server failed to start'. I have checked linuxsampler is installed, and it is. (Qsampler being a gui for ls, for the unknowing.)

Can anyone help with this? I've trawled the ls online info, and various fora, but i'm still none the wiser.
(Is this even possible in UStudio?)

Alex.

BoxOfSnoo
12-05-2007, 05:54 AM
Well, I gotta say I admire you guy's patience and dedication. I've tried UnbutuStudio last week-end, and I couldn't even get a desktop with it, all I got was a Dos type command line prompt that I couldn't even begin to understand what to do with. Trying to read online "instructions" was an exercise in futility as I didn't even understand the words they used in writing them instruction, probably written in programmer slang or somesuch.

You guy's are programmer by trade?

I am, but what got me in to Linux was being a programmer by nature :) That's what a VIC-20 at 11 years old will do to you.

I'm guessing the reason for the command prompt instead of the desktop is that you have an ATI video card? Nasty Linux support until now. One of the startup parameters (F2 or F3) will sometimes fix that up.

Alex Stone
12-05-2007, 06:00 AM
I am, but what got me in to Linux was being a programmer by nature :) That's what a VIC-20 at 11 years old will do to you.

I'm guessing the reason for the command prompt instead of the desktop is that you have an ATI video card? Nasty Linux support until now. One of the startup parameters (F2 or F3) will sometimes fix that up.

Yep, ATI card here, and it's alt+f2 each time at boot. (you can also use ctl+alt+f2)

And i'm not a programmer at all (Now there's an oxymoron..me and programmer in the same breath), having been a fulltime muso and composer for 30ish years. (I'm not as 'sage' as Dave.)
:)


Alex.

charles.monteiro
12-05-2007, 06:33 AM
one tangent question, Reaper only runs on Linux over WINE ? If you all recall I have a G4 I am contemplating turning into a Linux box. I don't actually have to run Reaper on that box but I would like to be able to run a midi sequencer that I can slave to Reaper on my PC

404NotFound
12-05-2007, 07:48 AM
one tangent question, Reaper only runs on Linux over WINE ? If you all recall I have a G4 I am contemplating turning into a Linux box. I don't actually have to run Reaper on that box but I would like to be able to run a midi sequencer that I can slave to Reaper on my PC

Actually, Reaper will not run on that box because Wine works only on Intel-compatible CPUs.

(In fact, it's possible to compile Wine on a G4, but one can't run any WIndows app because they are compiled against an i386 architecture which is incompatible with the G4's PowerPC architecture)

BoxOfSnoo
12-05-2007, 11:12 AM
Yep, ATI card here, and it's alt+f2 each time at boot. (you can also use ctl+alt+f2)


Nope, that's too late - the system's already booted - those are virtual terminals. When you boot the CD you might see a boot: prompt, before everything starts scrolling by. Sometimes there are options to boot with regular VESA support, you might see more options if you hit F2 and F3.

There are ways to get it going, it might take some work.

Alex Stone
12-05-2007, 12:25 PM
Nope, that's too late - the system's already booted - those are virtual terminals. When you boot the CD you might see a boot: prompt, before everything starts scrolling by. Sometimes there are options to boot with regular VESA support, you might see more options if you hit F2 and F3.

There are ways to get it going, it might take some work.

I have multi boot, B. When the choice boot box comes up i select the rt kernel, and a second later i hold down Alt+f2, and the screen comes up with the boot sequence.

Works for me, lol.

Alex.

StudioDave
12-05-2007, 01:23 PM
I'm attempting to use Qsampler, and all attempts so far have failed. At each instigation of the program, i get 'server failed to start'.

Alex, have you tried starting Linuxsampler from a terminal prompt ? If there's a system problem LS will probably print some error messages to the screen. If it starts okay then you may have an outdated QSampler.

Rui Capela wrote QSampler, he's a great fellow so don't hesitate to contact him directly about any problems you have with his software.

Alex Stone
12-05-2007, 02:45 PM
Alex, have you tried starting Linuxsampler from a terminal prompt ? If there's a system problem LS will probably print some error messages to the screen. If it starts okay then you may have an outdated QSampler.

Rui Capela wrote QSampler, he's a great fellow so don't hesitate to contact him directly about any problems you have with his software.

Thanks for chipping in Dave. Won't start from the terminal (command not found.) Guess that means it's not installed from the Ubuntu disk, and further research revealed that Ubuntu removed it for license reasons. So the Qsampler gui, while very efficient at opening ( :) Rui did good ) didn't have anything to work with.

I haven't got my head around manual installs yet, and can't find a binary, so i might have to sit this one out i think, at least for a while.

Alex.

funkster1
12-05-2007, 04:10 PM
Alex, do a google search for 'deb search' (there's a firefox search plugin for it ;)) and simply look for any app of your choice.
It will then most probably find it and point you to a place where to download the.deb package.
Since Ubuntu is based on Debian, you should have a means of installing it from your HD, once downloaded. I use a tool called 'GDebi', which installs a right click menu for .deb packages into Gnome. So I put them in my user folder, right-click ->open with... ->gdebi and there you go.

Raphael ;)

P.S.: I'm aware that this is probably NOT the most efficient way to go about, but I'm a lame *nix noob myself. So no miracles to expect from my side :D

funkster1
12-06-2007, 05:35 AM
Hi Alex,
I've bitten the bullet and installed Ubuntu Studio 7.10 on my box.
GDebi is effectively part of the packages in it and should work by simply clicking on a '.deb' file. A window will then pop-up and offer you the choice to install the package you just clicked on (upper right corner in the window-unless dependency errors).
Now for the bad news, I couldn't get LinuxSampler to install at all on US.
I had downloaded all packages necessary from http://www.linuxsampler.org/downloads.html#linuxsampler , but none of them installed. I neither succeeded using the terminal & 'apt-get install --force-yes'. Maybe one of the linux-gurus will be able to tell you if it's possible at all. Maybe by adjusting your sources.lst, to download/install from another repository through Synaptic would be possible, I don't know.
And personally I have no need for a Gigasampler clone. I had tried it once in another distribution (don't know if it was in JackLab or 64-Studio) and it definately worked, but I found it kind of wonky/unstable and as soon as I loaded some bigger libs I had nothing but trouble.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know.

Cheers
Raphael ;)

BoxOfSnoo
12-06-2007, 07:16 AM
Since Ubuntu is based on Debian, you should have a means of installing it from your HD, once downloaded. I use a tool called 'GDebi', which installs a right click menu for .deb packages into Gnome. So I put them in my user folder, right-click ->open with... ->gdebi and there you go.

Raphael ;)

P.S.: I'm aware that this is probably NOT the most efficient way to go about, but I'm a lame *nix noob myself. So no miracles to expect from my side :D

From the command prompt:
dpkg -i file.deb

BoxOfSnoo
12-06-2007, 07:17 AM
I have multi boot, B. When the choice boot box comes up i select the rt kernel, and a second later i hold down Alt+f2, and the screen comes up with the boot sequence.

Works for me, lol.

Ah I got mixed up over who had it working and who didn't!

The F2/3 thing is by no means universal, and only applies on the install CD, when it's there. So you probably won't see it.

Alex Stone
12-06-2007, 07:21 AM
Hi Alex,
I've bitten the bullet and installed Ubuntu Studio 7.10 on my box.
GDebi is effectively part of the packages in it and should work by simply clicking on a '.deb' file. A window will then pop-up and offer you the choice to install the package you just clicked on (upper right corner in the window-unless dependency errors).
Now for the bad news, I couldn't get LinuxSampler to install at all on US.
I had downloaded all packages necessary from http://www.linuxsampler.org/downloads.html#linuxsampler , but none of them installed. I neither succeeded using the terminal & 'apt-get install --force-yes'. Maybe one of the linux-gurus will be able to tell you if it's possible at all. Maybe by adjusting your sources.lst, to download/install from another repository through Synaptic would be possible, I don't know.
And personally I have no need for a Gigasampler clone. I had tried it once in another distribution (don't know if it was in JackLab or 64-Studio) and it definately worked, but I found it kind of wonky/unstable and as soon as I loaded some bigger libs I had nothing but trouble.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know.

Cheers
Raphael ;)

Cheers Raphael, great post!
I've tried three times with linux sampler as a manual install, and got nowhere, same as you, in UBS. (Another three letter acronym, there's just no escape :) ) I'm giving it up, for the time being.
Likewise with gigasampler, it's just not reliable enough.
I've been using gdebi to install other stuff, works well, except (and linux sampler figures in this with a red 'dependency' prob. UBS has libflac8 installed, and LS wants libflac7. Go figure.) for the odd program or two.

How are you getting on with UBS? I'm still a dummy with linux, so if it works for me, others are in with a good chance.

I have to admit, i'm having a lot of fun working all this stuff out, and using a different mindset to figure how to do different things.

Alex.
:)

p.s. There's quite a bit of stuff on the net (with Dave making a big contribution) about linux commands, but not so much for dummies like me about really basic stuff like additional keys and commands. It could be useful if a really basic glossary with 'dummy' explanations could be made available.
Any of you linux wizards got a decent link to this sort of info we can chase, and reference? (What does -r do? for example....)

Alex Stone
12-06-2007, 07:24 AM
From the command prompt:
dpkg -i file.deb

I've added this one to the notes.

Cheers!

Alex.

p.s. What's the '-i' for? Install?

Alex Stone
12-06-2007, 07:31 AM
And just for posterity, the reason i was keen to install linuxsampler was as an external sampler to Reaper. Given there are those of us who use software samplers as a big part of the working method, and probably have a fair chunk of HD space in samples in one format or another, i reckon it would be entirely useful to get all this working together.
Running dll's in Wine is competent, and works for most plugs and vsti's i've tried, but to keep it all native might yield even better results.


Alex.

Unafraid to fly over the bleeding edge, and, most of the time, cheerfully ignorant of the consequences!

404NotFound
12-06-2007, 12:00 PM
Got Qsampler up and running now. There are some things to mention:

- libflac7 is not libflac8. You can have both of them installed at the same time. Just search the web for a recent .deb of libflac7.
- The Qsampler package shipped with UbuStu won't work. Remove it via Synaptic. You also have to remove libgig.
- Go to http://download.linuxsampler.org/packages/debian/ and download + install the latest versions of libgig, liblinuxsampler, liblscp, linuxsampler and qsampler (in this order).

BoxOfSnoo
12-06-2007, 12:57 PM
p.s. What's the '-i' for? Install?

Exactly! Note these too:

dpkg -i [file.deb] ; install file.deb
dpkg --get-selections > file_of_all_installed.txt
dpkg -L [file.deb] ; list all files in file.deb. Great if you installed something and don't know exactly what it called things!
dpkg -S /usr/lib/file.so ; find package that installed file.so

apt-get update ; update listing of available packages
apt-get upgrade ; download and install upgrades to all packages. Soon replaced by safe-upgrade
apt-get install package ; download and install package and its dependencies
apt-cache search [keyword] ; find all packages that include keyword

Not sure if you have it, but try running aptitude as it wraps up all of the apt commands in a single tool. Can use command line parameters but also runs interactively.

bullshark
12-06-2007, 03:02 PM
I don't know about the other users, but I'm a professional musician, have been for almost 45 years (I'll be 57 in January).

You're right though, Linux can be a terribly confusing and frustrating experience. Despite all the efforts that have gone into making it friendlier it remains problematic for many new users. I think a lot has to do with your distro of choice *and* the amount of time you have to get into using Linux. It's definitely not a variant of Windows or the Mac (which is actually more like a variant of Linux now ;) ), and that means there's potentially a lot of new stuff to learn.

I usually advise interested folks to try the live CDs before you try to install a system. Good choices include the Dynebolic, MusiX, and 64 Studio live discs, but there are others that might be more appealing. You can't beat their cost ($0.00 + download), and you don't need to bother your existing installation.

Yeah, I've tried live cd's. They work alright for the most part, but considering all my files are on NTFS formated disc, which those Linux version can't read or write to, there's very little I can do beside browsing the web using those version. I'm not even sure UnbutuStudio can access my files on NTFS drives...I installed it to see if it could; turned out I couldn't even boot it, so I still don't know.

I love the idea of Linux, but in real life it didn't turn out to be very practical for me. I'll check it again in a year or two, maybe I'll get further with it then.

BoxOfSnoo
12-06-2007, 07:19 PM
Yeah, I've tried live cd's. They work alright for the most part, but considering all my files are on NTFS formated disc, which those Linux version can't read or write to, there's very little I can do beside browsing the web using those version. I'm not even sure UnbutuStudio can access my files on NTFS drives...I installed it to see if it could; turned out I couldn't even boot it, so I still don't know.

I love the idea of Linux, but in real life it didn't turn out to be very practical for me. I'll check it again in a year or two, maybe I'll get further with it then.

2 other ways you can try it, just to get the feel of it.

1) VMWare Server - or VirtualBox. Free virtual machines, they're really impressive.

2) Cooperative Linux http://www.colinux.org/ It runs Linux as a task within Windows, you can pop open a terminal to monitor/access the Linux "guest". It's not a VM in the same sense, and also a bit more challenging to get running.

Again, not the ideal way to run hardware stuff like audio interfaces, but you can learn good stuff that way.

funkster1
12-06-2007, 09:04 PM
From the command prompt:
dpkg -i file.deb

Many thanks BoS.
I was pretty sure that there's another means of installing .deb packages from the cl.

How are you getting on with UBS? I'm still a dummy with linux, so if it works for me, others are in with a good chance.


Alex, well, I'd tried UBS in it's first incarnation already. And while I wasn't too impressed with it, 7.10 looks pretty good and seems to offer a little more choice. Not to forget they're using a newer kernel with more supported HW. And they try to give it the same 'EZness' factor as the other (K)(X)Ubuntu distros, making it appealing to linux noobs.
I'm using diff. linux systems since only a little more than 6 months now, but quite enjoy many things. For instance I'm amazed at how linux makes use of your hardware ressources. It seems to dig way deeper into it and sometimes offers you functions you'd never knew they existed. Totally different from windows. Also, there are quite some very innovative music apps out there for it which is really cool. For me it was an app called "FreeWheeling" which really blew me away. It's a realtime looper, without any restrictions of file length, recording in .ogg or .wav format. You can superpose as many loops as you want, kind of like Ableton live or Moebius (which is far more complicated). After a day of poking around with the config file, which is written in XML (which I don't really understand, but in this case all the functions etc are very well commented), I've been more creative in 1 week than in the last 6 months on windows. Using 2 footcontrollers and a BCR2000, I don't have to worry much about workflow. You trigger recording with your sustain pedal i.e. play your keyboards, guitar, what have you, then assign your loops to the PC keyboard to trigger/stop them. Or you can assign them to MIDI CC's. Of course, they can also sync to each other. But I'm disgressing here.
As you can see, there are many things which have really impressed me on linux, but also others which I really hate. If you take the x-server for instance and the continuous problems with graphic cards and dual monitor display, I'm regularly pulling my hair off trying to configure these things, as they can differ from distro to distro or for the diff. desktop environments.

Anyway, I'm confident and comfortable enough now to use linux as my day in/day out workstation for office stuff, Internet, graphics manipulation and such things. It's quite easy, secure (no need for antivirus, no fear for trojans etc.). And I very much like the ideas of open source, freedom of choice, freedom of manipulation of the programs installed on your box etc.

I still didn't really settle on a specific distro, since I like to see/test as much as I can. But I see myself more often coming back to debian based systems. Fedora Core is also nice IMO.

As far as documentation for linux newbies, there are quite some websites dealing with that. Not to forget the really nice and useful Ubuntu docs and forums.

Ouf, OK, sorry for the lengthy post, but I guess it just shows my enthusiasm for linux (after an initial "what's that bs?" attitude).

Anyway, just enjoy your ride.

Cheers
Raphael ;)

Alex Stone
12-07-2007, 12:48 AM
404, you're a genius.
Linux sampler is finally up and running, and the instructions you provided did the trick. I've been able to load most of an orchestral quick draft, without too many hassles.
Thank you!

Some observations:


LS does load fairly well once Jack is loaded first. (Seems obvious, but in qsampler, a gui for LS, i get three options of audio devices, of which jack works, and alsa and arts don't. I choose Jack, and get audio and the option of alsa midi. In alsa i get a persistent '684, unable to open slave' error, and Qsamp crashes.)
Once i load channels, and then go back to edit, the programme freezes, and i have to restart. Whether this is LS, Jack, or USt, i don't know. So i'm careful to load and check as i go. Is this a bug, or something i should expect as 'normal' at this stage in LS development? The edit capability is still problematic, at least for me, in USt.
The latency is low, low, low. With a 'quick draft' orchestral set, i'm running Jack (rt) at 128/48000/2 for about 4-6ms. That's even with several channels playing at once. I'm rather impressed, to say the least.

Dave, my compliments to Rui for Qsampler. An easy to use, easy to find stuff, gui, that doesn't overwhelm me with a lot of options i won't use. (one only has to look at gigsampler to appreciate the difference.) With further development in LS for stability, and a more robust operation (not so 'fragile') i'm enthusiastic about using this particular programme.
I'm still trying to lash LS to Reaper, so i'll report on the success rate of this, and how it came together, when everything works.

Box, thanks for the commands! I have most of these, but have added the extras to the 'memorise' list. I've been trying to understand the particular linux syntax, and am getting there slowly, but these will help in a greater understanding.

Raphael, i did the distro jive as well, trying a few before i settled on USt. It worked the best for me. I've managed to get around most of the graphics challenges so far, using stock vesa, and as i'm not particularly interested in the graphic effects, it seems to work ok for me. I will agree that some serious thought needs to go into this though. The fact we have to come up with solutions to this is an indication of the 'enthusiasm' or otherwise of graphic card manufacturers to work in linux, and keep up with developments. (imho) As i wrote earlier, i have an ATI card, and when i went surfing for solutions, i was astonished at how many posts there were in so many places, dealing with the same issues. Food for thought when making the next card purchase. Likewise with audio cards. I'm using onboard nvidia HDA with success, but when i researched the possibility of putting a soundcard in the box, i came up with precious few options, RME being, it seems, the leading contender for sustained linux support. I rather like their madi pci cards, so maybe it's not so bad after all. (Does anyone know if Creamware are supporting linux? I couldn't find anything on their site.)

Some questions for those who may know.

Is linuxsampler 64 bit?

Can i use Wine in a 64 bit distro? (USt, for example.)

If so, does Reaper load in Wine in 64 bit ok? (Has anyone tried this?)

How do i check how much memory (ram) i can use before LS, or other linux programmes will say that's enough? If i can check the memory limit, can i change it? (I have 4gb of ram and dual core amd64, and if all this stuff can work in 64bit, then i'm keen to set higher ram usage limits if possible.)


Alex.

On the bleeding edge, and getting slashed.. :)

Jack Winter
12-07-2007, 01:43 AM
Yeah, I've tried live cd's. They work alright for the most part, but considering all my files are on NTFS formated disc, which those Linux version can't read or write to, there's very little I can do beside browsing the web using those version. I'm not even sure UnbutuStudio can access my files on NTFS drives...I installed it to see if it could; turned out I couldn't even boot it, so I still don't know.


I'm mainly getting into kubuntu. The programs differ, but the functionality must be there.

In system settings advanced tab, go to disk & file systems. There you will find all disks and partitions. click administrator mode then modify with a partition selected, there you can choose a mountpoint. I created "~/windows/c", d, and e. then enable at startup, and writable if so inclined. Exit that screen, and click enable, then it should work. I think i had to manually click enable once more after restarting, but since then it's worked fine.

Jack Winter
12-07-2007, 01:52 AM
Likewise with audio cards. I'm using onboard nvidia HDA with success, but when i researched the possibility of putting a soundcard in the box, i came up with precious few options, RME being, it seems, the leading contender for sustained linux support. I rather like their madi pci cards, so maybe it's not so bad after all. (Does anyone know if Creamware are supporting linux? I couldn't find anything on their site.)

If so, does Reaper load in Wine in 64 bit ok? (Has anyone tried this?)



Be careful as not all rme cards are supported. The fireface as an example is not.

As far as I know, 32-bit wineasio can not talk to 64bit Jack... Which means if you want to use reaper with wineasio, you have to stay with 32bit.

funkster1
12-07-2007, 02:36 AM
Alex, as far as audio cards go, PCI is your best bet.
USB Audio is second best choice, firewire is still very problematic, to say the least.
Although development of the freebob drivers (which handle firewire devices) is advancing relatively fast. M-Audio PCI cards are generally very wel supported (I own a Delta 1010LT, never had the slightest problem), some Echo cards and a few others.

For my graphics card, an old ATI Radeon 7000/VE (RV100 QY), I had it working perfectly in 64 Studio i.e. with two differently sized monitors (19"+17" CRT's).
But in UBS I can't use the same xorg.conf, as they use another xorg version and RandR >1.2. And I don't even want 3D or Beryl/Compiz what have you. Just my 2 monitors working as they should.
You can effectively find several dozen howto's or whatever on the net, each explaining things differently, based on different distros with diff. xorg versions :(
Not really funny.

Cheers
Raphael ;)

btw.: Hi Jack ;)

Alex Stone
12-07-2007, 04:47 AM
As part of my ongoing Linux journey, i revisited a distro which i tried to install some little while ago, that being JAD. Got no closer this time than last with the install stalling at 'please put cd1 in the drive', from a dvd (and dvd image from their own site.). Not sure what's happening here, but if anyone has contact with the jad team, maybe it's worth mentioning. (this is the install dvd, not live.) I think these guys are onto something with a muso driven package, and i'd hate to see them disadvantaged at the first hurdle. (Remembering i'm a linux dummy.)

p.s. (This is starting to read like a diary...) If anyone can tell me why 64studio doesn't have pppoe config as part of the package, and how they get around this for a dsl connection, i'm all ears.
Cos if i can't update the distro and add packages, there isn't really much point.


Alex.

Alex Stone
12-07-2007, 04:52 AM
Alex, as far as audio cards go, PCI is your best bet.
USB Audio is second best choice, firewire is still very problematic, to say the least.
Although development of the freebob drivers (which handle firewire devices) is advancing relatively fast. M-Audio PCI cards are generally very wel supported (I own a Delta 1010LT, never had the slightest problem), some Echo cards and a few others.

For my graphics card, an old ATI Radeon 7000/VE (RV100 QY), I had it working perfectly in 64 Studio i.e. with two differently sized monitors (19"+17" CRT's).
But in UBS I can't use the same xorg.conf, as they use another xorg version and RandR >1.2. And I don't even want 3D or Beryl/Compiz what have you. Just my 2 monitors working as they should.
You can effectively find several dozen howto's or whatever on the net, each explaining things differently, based on different distros with diff. xorg versions :(
Not really funny.

Cheers
Raphael



I think i would go with pci anyway Raphael. And i didn't install compiz on the audio os, so i don't know if it would work or not!

:)

Alex.

Eye Candy. Sex for nerds....:)

StudioDave
12-07-2007, 08:55 PM
Is linuxsampler 64 bit?


Yes. I can run it in 64 Studio.


Can i use Wine in a 64 bit distro? (USt, for example.)


Yes. It's possible to compile a 32-bit version that will run in a 64-bit system. However, you can't use it with JACK, which totally blows the latency.


If so, does Reaper load in Wine in 64 bit ok? (Has anyone tried this?)


I've run Reaper under Wine in 64 Studio. I ran some VSTs in Reaper, but I didn't keep track of my experiments.


How do i check how much memory (ram) i can use before LS, or other linux programmes will say that's enough? If i can check the memory limit, can i change it? (I have 4gb of ram and dual core amd64, and if all this stuff can work in 64bit, then i'm keen to set higher ram usage limits if possible.)

Good question re: memory limit, you'll have to ask Christian or Rui on the Linuxsampler site. :)

I think the memory limit is set in the kernel configuration. And yes, with the AMD64 you should be able to access huge amounts of RAM. Note that I have not verified this, and that my 64 Studio machine has only 2 GB memory.

Alex Stone
12-09-2007, 02:07 AM
Yes. I can run it in 64 Studio.



Yes. It's possible to compile a 32-bit version that will run in a 64-bit system. However, you can't use it with JACK, which totally blows the latency.



I've run Reaper under Wine in 64 Studio. I ran some VSTs in Reaper, but I didn't keep track of my experiments.



Good question re: memory limit, you'll have to ask Christian or Rui on the Linuxsampler site. :)

I think the memory limit is set in the kernel configuration. And yes, with the AMD64 you should be able to access huge amounts of RAM. Note that I have not verified this, and that my 64 Studio machine has only 2 GB memory.

Dave, thanks again for the input! Iīve conquered the memory bit i think.

An update:

Linuxsampler in USt32 is working fine with Reaper. And the memory limit is related to īmemlock.ī

Using the preparation guidelines in the Ubuntu forums, memlock is set to 512000, which is 512mb. Ok for most apps, but a little short for linux sampler. As i have 4gb of ram, i could afford to be a bit adventurous, and with some trial and error, i set the memlock to 1536000, which is just over 1.5gb of ram. Nothing broke, and LS now loads a complete orchestra with multi articulations for each instrument, particularly the strings. So for those who want to use LS to run big gig sample sets, this may be a clue for you. (rtprio stays at 99, and nice at -19)

This is nearly double the ram i could use in gigasampler (in win) so iīm rather pleased with the result. Jack is running in realtime/softmode (with a priority of 89, thanks woot for the tip) at 48000/2/128 for latency of 8ms.

In addition to this, i can set the number of ports (midi) in linuxsampler when instigating a device. So i have Jack as the audio device, and alsa as the midi device with 10 ports. (assignable)
That means, in Reaper, i can midi hardware output to 90 plus instruments, in ports, and direct the midi data specifically. (Each port has 16 midi channels, so port 1, with an alias renaming in Reaper to ī1st violinsī, is able to handle multi articulations easily, and without triggering other instruments that may have the same midi channel number, on a different port.)

I also, as an experiment, ran LS in a purely non wine session, with muse for the midi input, ls as the sample engine, and ardour as the audio īreceiver.ī Works well, and with low, low latency. The mmc, through jack is flawless, and triggers all three programs correctly, each time. Iīm going to try muse/ls/reaper shortly, and see how well the three apps talk to each other.

There little doubt that linux as an os, and wine as a vehicle for win progs takes some tweaking to get running. But iīve discovered itīs not as daunting as it first appears, and with a bit of research, and patience, does work well. A big heads up for Justin and the team, as Reaper seems to be the most robust and forgiving of all the win programs iīve tried in wine.

And a big thanks to 404, whoīs timely advice about qsampler got all this rolling. I hope i can reciprocate at some point, when my knowledge improves.

My previously 400 track plus template in Reaper is no more, and track count, with 10 midi īls portī tracks, is down to 46.
A considerable improvement.

More to follow.....


Alex.

StudioDave
12-09-2007, 02:47 AM
...the memory limit is related to īmemlock.ī

Ah, yes, the memlock thingie. Back in The Day there was no such thing, so I tend to forget that it's there. My bad, but I'm glad you found out about it.

...A big heads up for Justin and the team, as Reaper seems to be the most robust and forgiving of all the win programs iīve tried in wine.

It's surely *one* of the best-running apps. I've tried a lot of stuff, you might be surprised at what runs well. AudioMulch performs nicely, as does a fixed version of VSThost, a lot of energyXT2 users like the Windows version in Wine, and many smaller audio apps perform well too. I think success in Wine has to do with the degree of conformity that the programmer is willing to work with in Windows itself. The big packages have a lot of proprietary solutions that work outside the Windows API or work with as-yet undocumented parts of the API (I'm guessing here, don't hold me too closely to these thoughts), so it's difficult or impossible to figure out how they're supposed to work in Wine (which is itself chasing a moving target). So less clever stuff in the original codebase may mean an easier time when working in Wine.

Alex Stone
12-09-2007, 02:27 PM
Ah, yes, the memlock thingie. Back in The Day there was no such thing, so I tend to forget that it's there. My bad, but I'm glad you found out about it.



It's surely *one* of the best-running apps. I've tried a lot of stuff, you might be surprised at what runs well. AudioMulch performs nicely, as does a fixed version of VSThost, a lot of energyXT2 users like the Windows version in Wine, and many smaller audio apps perform well too. I think success in Wine has to do with the degree of conformity that the programmer is willing to work with in Windows itself. The big packages have a lot of proprietary solutions that work outside the Windows API or work with as-yet undocumented parts of the API (I'm guessing here, don't hold me too closely to these thoughts), so it's difficult or impossible to figure out how they're supposed to work in Wine (which is itself chasing a moving target). So less clever stuff in the original codebase may mean an easier time when working in Wine.

Good point here Dave. The wine team deserve a big thanks for their efforts. None of this would be possible without them. I have Reap,Qsampler, and Jack all talking nicely to each other now.

p.s. Any idea if anyoneś building a linux version of asio4all, whether itś linked to wine or not? And iīve just pushed memlock to just under 2gb, and itś playing nicely so far. Big find that one.

Alex.

Alex Stone
12-10-2007, 06:43 AM
As an attempt to keep the linux stuff in one thread for my USt journey, i like to thank Raphael, (the funkster himself) for posting the update to wineasio, and generously building a .deb for us dummies. Hereś the link to his thread.
Thanks Raph!
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?p=135932#post135932

And a big thank you to the wineasio team for giving us another fine tool to work with, and the chance to use Reaper well, in linux. :)

An update to Qsampler. After a bit more tweaking, and further increase in memallocation, qsampler (LS) is now cruising along, loaded with a full orchestra at about 1.9gb of a total of 4gb of ram (which is almost three times the mem i could use with gigasampler). Runs like a train. Thanks to Rui, Christian and the team for the ongoing work with this. Fits with Reaper, like a glove.(or should that be condom?) If you could see your way to increasing the channel count at some stage, it would be much appreciated. I am up to 97 of 99!

Cheers chaps!

Alex.

:)

Alex Stone
12-17-2007, 01:56 AM
A quick update for the reaper tuxheads.

Having experimented further with the memlock setting in UBs (memory access limit), in direct relation to Linuxsamplerīs limit on how many gig files it can load, iīm rather pleased to report iīve eased the memlock up to 2048000, with no problems. (Thatīs 2.048GB of memory assigned for use by the program)

So for those who have lots of ram (mine is 4gb), and are running samplers, and other progs which benefit from this, the memlock setting has a direct impact. (in my modest experience as a linux dummie)

NOTE: The memlock does not seem to work when using programmes from within Wine. (Thatīs Win programmes running in Wine) I went looking, and did some research, but canīt seem to find info that would enable me to configure wine with higher mem levels. (if that is possible) This has had a direct effect on a couple of Orchestral VSTīs, with a fairly low limit of what can be loaded, before they spit the dummy, and say no more.

rtprio at 99
memlock at 2048000
nice at-19

seem to work well.

Jack settings are:

realtime/softmode checked. (Thanks Jack and Woot for these tips)

priority 89
frames 64
S/rate 48000
buffers 2 (This goes to three when iīm running the sampler loaded to the gunwales with a full orchestra..)

Ports max 512
Timeout 2000

Wine......

When using Qsampler, which is now steaming along nicely, i can define the number of midi and audio ports out, in options. A very useful option when running a full orchestra, with lots of sections, and different instruments to deal with.
And JACK sees all these ports, and gleefully sets them up, so no prob there.
The challenge remains with wine, which somehow seems restricted to 2 ins and 2 outs for audio, and īsees' a maximum of 12 qsampler midi ports. I.e. I have 24 ports for midi into qsampler driving instruments. In Reaper i can only have 12 of those ports visible and enabled as midi hardware outputs.

This may also be related to the wineasio driver, but, and i write this somewhat ruefully, i know iīm not clever enough in linux (yet) to figure this out, and make any changes, if possible.

If someone can help here, it would be appreciated.



The next challenges....

Setting up multiple in/out for Alsa, with wineasio.

Getting Dual monitors working with an ATI card. (I just may dump the ati card and buy an nvidia. Any shared experiences with this would be useful and appreciated.)

Learning how to setup an asoundrc file to manually set parameters, and what is possible. (Iīm not using one at the moment.)

All of the above is in UbuntuStudio (Gutsy 7.10) with RT kernel.

Alex

The journey continues....

woodslanding
12-17-2007, 02:37 AM
Hi All:

Well, I am attempting to jump on the linux bandwagon here. I've just installed JAD, after little success wrestling with UbuntuStudio, and it works better out of the box than any linux distro yet on my Dell 8200. The second install worked, and I chose the KDE desktop, because I was mystified by the default desktop. Don't know the ramifications of this choice exactly.

I'm having problems with my touchpad and wireless, but I cannot get past the anti-spam feature in order to register for the JAD forums. Metasymbol are you out there?? Help, what can I do--I am shown as an 'inactive' member (woodslanding) and I tried to create a new user in order to pose this question, but I can't get past the spam-control. I AM NOT A ROBOT, darn it!

I can't do much until I can get the mouse pointer across the screen in less than a minute!

If I can get past this, I will be able to test out Jack and Wine. Looks like JAD recognizes my hammerfall interface okay!

Hope to hear something. I guess I will try to post this somewhere in the SUSE forums also, if I can manage to register there.

Cheers!
eric

StudioDave
12-17-2007, 04:30 AM
I've just installed JAD, after little success wrestling with UbuntuStudio, and it works better out of the box than any linux distro yet on my Dell 8200. The second install worked, and I chose the KDE desktop, because I was mystified by the default desktop. Don't know the ramifications of this choice exactly.

It's not significant *unless* the artsd sound daemon is activated as a matter of course by your system. I use JAD too, and if I recall correctly it should auto-dump artsd (and esd in GNOME, I think).

Another consideration: If you're short on RAM or have a slow video system you may want to use the e18 default desktop. When you're feeling braver, try Fluxbox, that's what I use, it's very fast and lightweight.

... I cannot get past the anti-spam feature in order to register for the JAD forums. Metasymbol are you out there?? Help, what can I do--I am shown as an 'inactive' member (woodslanding) and I tried to create a new user in order to pose this question, but I can't get past the spam-control. I AM NOT A ROBOT, darn it!

IRC is your friend. Log on to Freenode then join the #jacklab channel. Meta hangs out there frequently, as well as the other JAD maintainers.

StudioDave
12-17-2007, 05:22 AM
Greetings to Alex et al,

One thing I'd like to stress is that few if any Linux audio developers are subbed to the Reaper list. They're not avoiding it, they just have their own things going on and their own projects. If you're looking for answers to program-specific questions regarding Linux software I urge you to :

1) Write directly to the author. His/her name will usually be in the README or some other info file. Directly contacting a programmer is common practice in the Linux world, so don't be shy. ;)

2) Join the Linux audio users mail list at http://lad.linuxaudio.org/subscribe/lau.html and ask away there too, especially questions regarding system configuration. Some devels are on that list, but there are a lot of other bright folks there too, some whom have been running Linux for a long time.

3) Harder-cores will want to join the Linux Audio Developers mail list too, it's at http://lad.linuxaudio.org/.

Both lists have archives, you'll do well to search there for answers too. Google is also your friend.

Problems re: Wine are a bit thornier than the usual Linux aggravations, so don't expect much assistance from those devels, they're too busy chasing down undocumented Windows functions.

I'm not sure if there's a users group for Wine, I'll have to check.

And of course you should feel free about asking me anything Linux-related. I may not be able to help, but if not, I will try to come up with an amusing reply. :)

HTH,

dp

Alex Stone
12-17-2007, 05:22 AM
Wine......

When using Qsampler, which is now steaming along nicely, i can define the number of midi and audio ports out, in options. A very useful option when running a full orchestra, with lots of sections, and different instruments to deal with.
And JACK sees all these ports, and gleefully sets them up, so no prob there.
The challenge remains with wine, which somehow seems restricted to 2 ins and 2 outs for audio, and īsees' a maximum of 12 qsampler midi ports. I.e. I have 24 ports for midi into qsampler driving instruments. In Reaper i can only have 12 of those ports visible and enabled as midi hardware outputs.

This may also be related to the wineasio driver, but, and i write this somewhat ruefully, i know iīm not clever enough in linux (yet) to figure this out, and make any changes, if possible.



Ok, further to this with some more experimentation.

Using a patchbay programme called Patchage, i can clearly see all the linux native stuff displayed, with the numerous ports for midi and audio in the linux sampler representation. (There is a lot, lol.)
So far so good.

But when i open Reaper, and go back to patchage, the wine midi representation appears for a brief moment, then disappears, preventing me from tweaking the cabling further. So at the moment, it seems, i canīt examine why the number of ports is limited going in and out of Wine/wineasio.

And further. If i exceed what seems an arbitrary limit of midiports in and out of reaper/wine/wineasio, then my input ports start disappearing, eg.my midi keyboard. Removing output ports restores the midi keyboard input to view.

Thereīs definitely a limit here, and iīm off to research it further, but if anyone can help with this, it would be much appreciated.
Iīm quite close now to having an ideal setup, with only the port restriction holding me back.

Alex.

Alex Stone
12-17-2007, 11:07 AM
Greetings to Alex et al,

One thing I'd like to stress is that few if any Linux audio developers are subbed to the Reaper list. They're not avoiding it, they just have their own things going on and their own projects. If you're looking for answers to program-specific questions regarding Linux software I urge you to :

1) Write directly to the author. His/her name will usually be in the README or some other info file. Directly contacting a programmer is common practice in the Linux world, so don't be shy. ;)

2) Join the Linux audio users mail list at http://lad.linuxaudio.org/subscribe/lau.html and ask away there too, especially questions regarding system configuration. Some devels are on that list, but there are a lot of other bright folks there too, some whom have been running Linux for a long time.

3) Harder-cores will want to join the Linux Audio Developers mail list too, it's at http://lad.linuxaudio.org/.

Both lists have archives, you'll do well to search there for answers too. Google is also your friend.

Problems re: Wine are a bit thornier than the usual Linux aggravations, so don't expect much assistance from those devels, they're too busy chasing down undocumented Windows functions.

I'm not sure if there's a users group for Wine, I'll have to check.

And of course you should feel free about asking me anything Linux-related. I may not be able to help, but if not, I will try to come up with an amusing reply. :)

HTH,

dp

Dave, thanks again for the heads up. Iīve been researching quite a bit on different aspects of getting all this running smoothly, and your articles have been a major feature of that research.

The amusing replies will be most welcome!

Alex.

Going back to figuring out how to get more midi ports in Alsa/Wine......

woodslanding
12-18-2007, 12:28 AM
Well, I gotta say I admire you guy's patience and dedication. I've tried UnbutuStudio last week-end, and I couldn't even get a desktop with it, all I got was a Dos type command line prompt

This happened to me the first time I installed it. There is a page in the installer with some confusing graphics, something like this:

[_] Audio Apps
[_] Multimedia
[_] Video apps
[_] Desktop

etc.

The spaces between the brackets need to have asterisks put in them. I think with the arrow keys and spacebar?? I sort of forget. But don't press enter here until you have asterisks next to everything! I complained on the ubuntu forums about this--glad to see I wasn't the only one confused.

What installer defaults with everything OFF????

This way you will get a desktop AND some applications. Not that you're out of the woods, but at least you know you are IN the woods.

Personally, I'm having better luck with JAD (Jack audio Development) which installed really effortlessly, and unlike Ubuntu, recognized my network card. I installed it with the desktop KDE (it's an obvious choice during installation) which I would so far recommend. I couldn't figure out how to configure any settings from the default desktop.

Everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt as I'm still on day one, and haven't actually gotten any audio working.

I'll put my questions about that in another post....

cheers,
eric

woodslanding
12-18-2007, 12:31 AM
UbuntuStudio 32bit is really starting to settle in now, and after figuring out how to install win progs into wine (doh)

Hey, can you tell me where you found this info?? That's exactly my current confusion....

thanks!
eric

daverich
12-18-2007, 01:40 AM
Hey, can you tell me where you found this info?? That's exactly my current confusion....

thanks!
eric

you just double-click on an .exe file and then it should ask you if you want to open it with WINE.

Just say yes and if wine can it will run the .exe file (installer or program or whatever)

Kind regards

Dave Rich

woodslanding
12-18-2007, 02:11 AM
Okay, I figured out how to start reaper with wine, and I put it in usr/bin/ which it allowed me to do. And started it from the command line.

But it is performing really poorly. Can someone explain to me the settings for jack, wine audio, and audio prefs in reaper that have worked for them??

I finally did get the audio enabled (I couldn't use the Jack-RT setting, as that wouldn't allow me to start the server at all!) but I can press play on brad sucks, and it just freezes up and nothing happens. I got glitchy sound once, but haven't been able to replicate it.

I don't see a choice for ASIO from within Jack itself. Which driver should I use there? I have ALSA selected, just because it's the only acronym I recognize!

I'm using my internal sound card which works great under ASIO4all with reaper windows. I tried selecting my hammerfall pcmcia card, but jack won't start with that setting. The message window just says 'could not connect to JACK server as client.'

In the JACK connections window, all the buttons are greyed out, don't know if that is significant.

Screen redraws are glacial. Something is obviously pretty wrong.

This is with JAD 1.0

Here are some lines from the log that might be significant:

Warning: no locale found: /usr/share/locale/gjackctl_en_US.UTF-8.gm

err:module:import_dll Library MSVCP60.dll not found

and most significantly:
jack_client_thread zombified - exiting from JACK

That last one is pretty unambiguous!


Tried some different settings, and now both Jack and Reaper are frozen.

Thanks for any ideas!
-eric

daverich
12-18-2007, 02:18 AM
you need to adjust the audio prefs in wine to JACK only.

Then in reaper wineasio should be available if it's installed properly.

You adjust the latency by adjusting the buffer size in jack.

try 3x128 for starters.

There is a really good website online - google for it, about how to setup wineasio with reaper.

Kind regards

Dave Rich.

Alex Stone
12-18-2007, 02:47 AM
Eric, i canīt speak for JAD, as i couldnīt get it installed, but if you look a few posts up, i posted my settings for jack.

I do suggest you firstly register on the jacklab forum, and ask Metasymbol to ok your registration. (They seem to have had a difficult time with spammers, so heīs doing regīs manually. Meta, if you read this, can you ok mine as well?)

Next, join the Jacklab IRC. Thereīs some good chaps there, and they will help. They certainly helped me.

A question.

Do you have wineasio installed?
Raphael very kindly posted a deb here of the latest wineasio release. After you have installed it, you will need to post the following line in a terminal, to īregister' wineasio with Jack.

regsvr32 wineasio.dll


Once that is done, Jack should see wineasio.

For ubuntu, there is a good webpage (google for UbuntuStudio Preparation) for setting up Jack/Alsa etc.. with all the settings required to get you started, and with good latency. Again, iīm not sure how this translates to Suse.

Woot, 404, Jack, Raphael, Dave and others have all contributed to this thread with some good info for setting up, and using Reaper in Linux. Can i suggest you read through the thread carefully, and take what you need.

As far as the Real time kernel goes, iīm not sure how to install it in Suse, but in ubuntu itīs simply a case of Ļsudo apt-get install linux-rt.Ļ (I didnīt even have to do this, as the rt kernel is already built in ubuntustudio.)
Perhaps asking at the Jacklab fora and irc will help.



Alex.

p.s. Studio Dave posted a link for linux journal. A really useful source of info for linux Audio. I cannot recommend it enough for setting up and tweaking your system.
http://lad.linuxaudio.org/subscribe/lau.html

Alex Stone
12-18-2007, 03:08 AM
you need to adjust the audio prefs in wine to JACK only.

Then in reaper wineasio should be available if it's installed properly.

You adjust the latency by adjusting the buffer size in jack.

try 3x128 for starters.

There is a really good website online - google for it, about how to setup wineasio with reaper.

Kind regards

Dave Rich.

Dave, iīm ignorant enough in linux to be more of a potential hazard than a help, but i found if i select jack in wineconfig, i get no midi. Selecting Alsa worked for me just fine.

Eric, an additional thought.

In Jack, and i am assuming you are using qjackctl as the gui, youīll see, on the right hand side of the first page (settings) input and output devices. I was important for me that i got this bit right, and carefully choose which HW device i would use. My usb midi kbd was listed there as well, and the first time i started jack, it crashed continually, until i figured this bit out.
In addition, setting the incorrect number of input and output channels (further down on the same page) according to the specs in your audio device caused it to crash as well.

Here is my Jack setup:

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/15034/Screenshot.png

You will see on the right middle and lower the settings i have according to my sound device.

Hereīs the Wine image.

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/15035/Screenshot-1.png

Dave has given you good advice here too. My Jack setup is a result of a lot of tweaking and refining. If i load Linuxsampler with a full orchestral template as my sound īengineī for Reaper, then i adjust the frames to 128, or 256, and increase the buffer to 3. Still highly usable and a low low latency compared to my previous win setup, consistently.
For an initial setup, to get everything going, you may well find it useful to setup as follows:

512
44100
3

This should at least get you going with some decent playback.

Like any system, and i did all this with every win and mac os i had, it takes a little while to fine tune everything to a stable fast working environment.

Alex.

funkster1
12-18-2007, 03:36 AM
Hi Alex,

concerning the number of I/O available (visible) to reaper via wineasio, simply create a file in your user (home) dir (right-click->'create new document'->'empty file') and call it ".wineasiocfg". Of course, without the quotes, but V E R Y important to put the leading dot in front. Then open it and just copy/paste:

ASIO_INPUTS=8
ASIO_OUTPUTS=2

into it. Adjust the numbers according to your available physical I/O capabilities. I have limited my I/O to 8/2 (of possible 12/10) atm, since when starting Reaper it autoconnects to all I/O.


@woodslanding:
You should definetely IRC the JAD team about your issues. I remember when trying Jacklab myself that it performed somehow (or significantly) better under e17, the default desktop. KDE, although apparently heavily optimised for the task at hand, is way more ressource hungry.

Btw, registering on the JackLab forum requires personal activation by metasymbol. So if you can't get past the captcha, IRC is your only way to get at him.

Hope that helps a little.

Cheers
Raphael ;)

Alex Stone
12-18-2007, 03:43 AM
Hi Alex,

concerning the number of I/O available (visible) to reaper via wineasio, simply create a file in your user (home) dir (right-click->'create new document'->'empty file') and call it ".wineasiocfg". Of course, without the quotes, but V E R Y important to put the leading dot in front. Then open it and just copy/paste:

ASIO_INPUTS=8
ASIO_OUTPUTS=2

into it. Adjust the numbers according to your available physical I/O capabilities. I have limited my I/O to 8/2 (of possible 12/10) atm, since when starting Reaper it autoconnects to all I/O.


@woodslanding:
You should definetely IRC the JAD team about your issues. I remember when trying Jacklab myself that it performed somehow (or significantly) better under e17, the default desktop. KDE, although apparently heavily optimised for the task at hand, is way more ressource hungry.

Btw, registering on the JackLab forum requires personal activation by metasymbol. So if you can't get past the captcha, IRC is your only way to get at him.

Hope that helps a little.

Cheers
Raphael ;)

Thanks Raphael!

Excellent info, and appreciated. Iīm off to try it now.

Cheers!

Alex.
:)

Edit, works fine with the options reversed for me. Input 2, output 8. Thanks! :) Now i can concentrate on getting more midi ports sorted out.

funkster1
12-18-2007, 04:04 AM
Dave, iīm ignorant enough in linux to be more of a potential hazard than a help, but i found if i select jack in wineconfig, i get no midi. Selecting Alsa worked for me just fine.

Selecting Alsa is it, definetely.


My usb midi kbd was listed there as well, and the first time i started jack, it crashed continually, until i figured this bit out.
In addition, setting the incorrect number of input and output channels (further down on the same page) according to the specs in your audio device caused it to crash as well.

Here is my Jack setup:

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/15034/Screenshot.png


It is also important to note, that if you have more than one sound device, incl. USB-Audio or MIDI, you have to append a few lines to your "/etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base".

The ones I had to add were:
options snd-ice1712 index=0
options snd-usb-audio index=-2

This prevents the system from grabbing unwanted sounddevices on system start, or shuffling the order around.
snd-ice1712 is my Delta 1010LT, which I want to appear as hw:0, so it get's 'index=0'.
snd-usb-audio is my BCR2000, so in order to avoid that it gets positioned on hw:0 on the next system start, it gets 'index=-2", can also be 'index=1/2/3', whatever order you want it to appear. If you have enabled onboard sound, it has to be listed as well.
To find out what's in your box, type
lspci -v

into a terminal. All your hardware wil be nicely listed then.
Remember to open your alsa-base file as sudo
sudo gedit /etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base

Replace 'gedit' with whatever name of your system's simple text editor ('kwrite' or 'kate' for kde, 'mousepad' for xfce4 etc.).

Hope that helps a little to further explore all the possibilities under linux for audio stuff/work.

Btw., on my old machine I haven't yet found a way to smoothly run Reaper, so I just use Rosegarden and Ardour instead. These also work nicely, and thanks to jack, even in sync if I want. But my app of choice is a little livelooper called 'Freewheeling'.
Since using this app creativity has come back to me, enjoying playing/recording again after a long time of frustration with all this DAW shit.
Someone here once wrote:
"When I had a 4-track, I was recording - now I only play around with plugins". Extend 'plugins to 'system configuration/optimization/what_have_you' and it's so true (at least for me).

Anyway.talk to you later guys, I gotta run now.

Raphael ;)

daverich
12-18-2007, 09:09 AM
Hi Alex,
Then open it and just copy/paste:

ASIO_INPUTS=8
ASIO_OUTPUTS=2

into it.

Cheers
Raphael ;)

THANKS!

I was actually waiting for FFADO because my onyx desk was only showing 2 inputs,- i figured I needed the new driver, but doing this and setting it to 16 gives me all 16 inputs available in reaper.

Sweeet!

This is hugely important for anyone whos trying to use wineasio to know....

Kind regards

Dave Rich

funkster1
12-18-2007, 10:35 AM
Cool Dave,
I thought you were an old linux guy and surely knew about this. :D
Config. capability has been hacked into wineasio since 0.3.1 or so I think.

Glad I could help

Raphael ;)

woodslanding
12-18-2007, 02:41 PM
Hey Thanks!

This is all really helpful info, much more specific than what I've found on either the JAD or UStudio pages.

I do have the realtime kernel running via JAD, and it installs wine and wineasio on my system. Those are up and running as far as I can tell.

Somewhere in this info I should be able to get correct settings.

I'll get off KDE once I get my basic hardware working. I just couldn't find ANY of the configuration stuff with the default desktop (and I wasn't a fan of the '72 Cadillac Eldorado/Hallmark christmas card look....)

I have no idea how IRC works--great: another technical hurdle!

I am being drug kicking and screaming into the 21st century....

Thanks all, you guys rock!
-eric

Alex Stone
12-20-2007, 11:42 AM
In the ongoing journey of enthusiasm with linux, iīve been researching a coupla things, and ask for advice and enlightenment.

Pulse Audio.

Whatīs it do, is it new, will it replace Alsa/Jack/anything, and is it a potential īunifier' of linux audio options for the future? (Opinions freely accepted from those that know, lol.)


How do i create a deb package from source material?

Werner Schweer (forgive my spelling Werner, please, if this is wrong) is building a very interesting notation editor called Mscore ( a maturation into a seperate prog from his fine MusE program). Itīs at 0.7 at the moment, but later development is in svn, and iīm interested in finding out how far this clever chap has got. Alternatively, if someone, who knows how to do this, could build a deb (for ubuntustudio gutsy) from the svn/source (?) it would be very much appreciated. Iīm somewhat frustrated that i canīt get my head around this at the moment, and lack the skills to do this without messing up my current setup which has been really stable, and frankly, really enjoyable to use. (If it aint broke...)
I enjoy the bleeding edge as much as the next explorer, but iīve got most things singing now, and iīm writing a shedload of stuff, so i donīt want to f**k it up...

And...
If i install a package that gets started from the terminal (Mscore, etc...), how can i stick an icon on the top bar somewhere, so i can just click it and go? I apologise in advance to the experienced tuxettes for whom the concept of īpicturesī is akin to sacrilege. I canīt help it, iīm new at this... :)

For those who are interested, Linuxsampler is hammering along nicely, using a new memlock setting of 2.156GB of memory (from a total of 4gb installed). I might be doing something technically wrong here, but it works, and iīm happy with that, so i think that will do for now. I yearn for the lS chaps (including Rui and his supernatural, stable, pleasant looking, Qsampler gui. Go Rui,go ...)to increase the channel count.

(Please chaps, we donīt all write just chamber or shopping centre elevator music, lol.)

Again, as an addition to the lS enjoyment, i have a further question.

How do i set the maximum number of voices in lS?

I hit a full tutti in a piece recently (I did say i was enjoying myself..) with a shedload of samples going at the same time, and briefly saw a message that went along the lines of.... īiīm starting to run out of voices here Alex. Donīt be a complete dork, and gimme some more resources to work with, or iīll spit all over that old fashioned crap youīre writing...ī Is there a config file somewhere i can rampage and pillage?

Next question.

Alsa. I have 4 īvirtualī timidity ports in Alsa (and iīm using the latest safe build in the ubuntu repository, what ever that is.). Ok, i can dig that.

They show up in Reaper, and other spots, including Jack. Ok, still digging it.

And lS really steps up here (as i am rapidly coming to expect from this fine package), with the ports i ībuild' in lS options/devices, showing up in other programs. So far, other progs outside of wine environment will see every port i build. (Using Jack for Audio, and Alsa for midi.)

(And it was a singularly salutary moment, when i built 20 midiports in one device in ls, and they all showed up in another program in pure linux through Jack, another fine component. I had a quiet sip of decent cognac, because for the first time in my computer/audio/compositional history, i was able to assign a dedicated port to each instrument/section in the orchestra without having to juggle. Some of you may appreciate how deeply, deeply, fulfilling that was. As if Classicalwriting on a box was finally being taken seriously.)

But, programmes in wine remain problematic at the moment. Alsa, as shown in the wine config device tab, will only allow me to use, and īseeī 12 ports max. I will admit i donīt quite understand this, given my unadulterated delight with the freedom of pure linux as an audio package.

And iīm getting rather impatient to bring all this together, and be able to see unlimited ports in Reaper, so i can, well, see above for cognac inducing moments....

If anyone can help with this, it would be appreciated.

Is there an additional virtual port(s) i can ītrick' wine/alsa into seeing? I understand enough to know that virtual midi ports in alsa are represented as hardware ports, but after that iīm swimming up a piranha infested river sans protective codpiece as far as knowledge goes.
Or, in case iīm seeing this from the wrong doorway, how do i increase the number of midi ports visible and useable in wine/wineasio?

Iīve been a little expressive here i know, but i am rather enjoying myself with linux/Reaper/Ls, etc...and tend to enthusiasm when that happens.


Alex.

:)

funkster1
12-20-2007, 05:47 PM
Hi Alex,
I guess I can't be very helpful in your quest for more MIDI ports, as I don't know jack neither. :D

But I can try to create a deb package for you re: Mscore.

Re: Pulse Audio - as far as I understand it, it's gonna replace the 'Arts' or 'OSS' sound-servers, which only concern system sounds and such things. Nothing to do with Alsa/Jack.

But Pulse Audio is able to play back more than one audiostream at any given time, which is not the case with Arts and OSS. These older sound-servers can only playback 1 source; you can't be listening to some websounds at the same time as trying to listen to some mp3's from your HD ie.
With Pulse-Audio it is possible.

Cheers
Raphael ;)

woodslanding
12-20-2007, 11:23 PM
Well, I've corrected a number of problems, but reaper is still not happy in JAD. It takes reaper about a minute to display the gui on startup, and it can play about 5 seconds of 'brad' before siezing up.

I properly installed it into wine from the installer exe (wow, is that ever clever) but that didn't help.

I ran winecfg, and changed to winXP, and set the driver to jack, but that didn't help. Set the driver to ALSA, that didn't help

I turned 'soft' and 'rt' on and off in jack. I boosted the latency up to 100ms, no real difference....

I've tried 'duplex' and output only on my sound card. I've got two soundcards, a hammerfall pcmcia (which I don't have the breakout box handy for, so I'm not testing yet) and the onboard ac 97, which is what I'm trying to use. Neither has come or gone since I installed linux, so I don't see how they could be getting confused.

Under xp and asio4all, this card was running big sessions in reaper just fine with 25 ms latency.

I'm stumped for the moment. I guess I'll try the hammerfall next. Maybe it will be better supported in that scenario....

Still trying to get on the jad forum.... I haven't tried to research and install an irc client yet. I barely know what it is!

cheers,
e

woodslanding
12-20-2007, 11:33 PM
Ahh, a clue!!!

I'm not seeing 'wineasio_jack_client' in my connections panel.

Maybe I don't have wineasio running. Does it not start automatically with Jack?

Another clue--I'm seeing several entries for the AC 97 audio card in the input and output dropdown menus in the jack configuration settings window. I've tried all different combinations, but maybe it's a problem just that there are additional entries at all?? Anybody else seen this?

Jack Winter
12-21-2007, 03:01 AM
Well, I've corrected a number of problems, but reaper is still not happy in JAD. It takes reaper about a minute to display the gui on startup, and it can play about 5 seconds of 'brad' before siezing up.


For what it's worth, I get reaper running well on my laptop (under kubuntu) a dothan 1.6GHz with the built in soundcard and with an rme cardbus/multiface. My P4 3GHz is a different story. Long delays loading plugins, graphic redraws are slow as molasses, and it can't really play brad sucks...

I think it's a hardware issue with the p4. I'm getting a quad next year, and hope to finally get reaper running under linux...

StudioDave
12-21-2007, 09:44 AM
Pulse Audio.

Whatīs it do, is it new, will it replace Alsa/Jack/anything, and is it a potential īunifier' of linux audio options for the future? (Opinions freely accepted from those that know, lol.)


PulseAudio is YASS, i.e. yet another sound server. Its specs look good. Many packages have good specs but don't get accepted into mainstream usage. We can only wait and see what happens with it.

It's not a replacement for ALSA or Jack.

The Wine guys rightly want a single-server solution. As long as Pulse Audio supports ALSA and Jack, I'm not unhappy.

Btw, the Linux sound system breaks down like this: ALSA is the low-level basic soundcore stuff. It includes the kernel sound module, soundcard/chipset drivers, a library for applications developers, and many utilities. JACK, artsd, esd, PortAudio, PulseAudio, et al, are sound servers that depend on ALSA.

There is also a middle layer of interesting software that is not directly considered by the user. This layer includes things like libsndfile, libsoundtouch, libsamplerate, etc., all of which provide extended services and functions to programs that use them.

How do i create a deb package from source material?

You look up "how to create deb package" on Google. :)

Werner Schweer (forgive my spelling Werner, please, if this is wrong) is building a very interesting notation editor called Mscore ( a maturation into a seperate prog from his fine MusE program). Itīs at 0.7 at the moment, but later development is in svn, and iīm interested in finding out how far this clever chap has got. Alternatively, if someone, who knows how to do this, could build a deb (for ubuntustudio gutsy) from the svn/source (?) it would be very much appreciated. Iīm somewhat frustrated that i canīt get my head around this at the moment, and lack the skills to do this without messing up my current setup which has been really stable, and frankly, really enjoyable to use. (If it aint broke...)

Alas, I'm not running Ubuntu. Best thing is to contact the ubuntustudio maintainers and lobby for an up-to-date package. Alternately you can ask on a related forum if a user would be so kind to package a build.

I enjoy the bleeding edge as much as the next explorer, but iīve got most things singing now, and iīm writing a shedload of stuff, so i donīt want to f**k it up...

This is wisdom. :)

If i install a package that gets started from the terminal (Mscore, etc...), how can i stick an icon on the top bar somewhere, so i can just click it and go?

It depends on the desktop. A Google search for "desktop icons linux" turned up some promising HOWTOs.

I yearn for the lS chaps (including Rui and his supernatural, stable, pleasant looking, Qsampler gui. Go Rui,go ...)to increase the channel count.

Just ask 'em.

How do i set the maximum number of voices in lS?

I checked through some LSCP scripts in hopes of finding some such variable, but got no joy. Is it possible there's no hard-wired limit ? Better ask Christian or Rui.

Alsa, as shown in the wine config device tab, will only allow me to use, and īseeī 12 ports max. I will admit i donīt quite understand this, given my unadulterated delight with the freedom of pure linux as an audio package.

I was going to advise reloading the virmidi module with more ports, but it seems that the ALSA developers have limited the number to just four. I also tried simply creating more instances of virmidi, but that didn't work for me either. There ought ought be some way to leverage virmidi to do what you want, I'll look further into this problem.

(Update): I did add another virmidi card by using the yast2 system configuration tool for JAD 1.0. I now have eight virtual MIDI ports listed in QJackCtl. Presumably I could just keep adding virtual cards for as many ports as I want.

Is there an additional virtual port(s) i can ītrick' wine/alsa into seeing? ...
Or, in case iīm seeing this from the wrong doorway, how do i increase the number of midi ports visible and useable in wine/wineasio?

See above.

i am rather enjoying myself with linux/Reaper/Ls, etc...and tend to enthusiasm when that happens.

Moi aussi. :)

funkster1
12-21-2007, 10:32 AM
Cheers Alex,

I haven't succeeded in building the mscore-0.8.0 package, despite the fact I'm having all required libs 'n packages installed.
I keep getting errors that the make process can't find CMAKE-2.4, even though it IS installed here.
So I guess you'd best contact Werner Schweer directly, so that he can maybe guide you through or build a deb directly for you.
His dev environment is kubuntu 7.04, so it should be all well if he's willing to help you.

I'm sorry I can't help you more than this.

Regards
Raphael ;)

Alex Stone
12-21-2007, 10:58 AM
Raph, i thank you for making the effort to build mscore. If youīre having a challenge with this, i am fairly confident i would have been completely lost at this stage. Iīll email Werner, and see what he says, but i am a little reluctant to disturb him in the middle of coding this prog.

Dave, thanks for the input, and yes, after giving google a good thrashing, i did find some useful info. Appreciate the heads up, lol, and i did get the message. Sometimes itīs knowing which question to ask...

And, making a desktop icon was absurdly easy after that. I have a motley collection of miserable looking icons representing command line progs now. :)

Very interested in your efforts at virmidi. It was only this morning i figured out how to add virmidi to alsa modules, and am now the proud owner of 4 more virtual midi ports.
I have a question at this point, and i ask this with a certain caution about messing up my now reasonably tuned system. (Including a brand spanking new backport update of Jack that works well.)

If alsa accepts as a hardware virtual card, 4 midi ports at a time, how would i name further īcardsī in a manner that would be accepted by Alsa/Jack/Wine? Can i simply implant further modules with virmidi1, virmidi2, etc?

Another question about Jack midi, and the midi button in the bottom left hand corner of the qjackctl gui. (It has three options, none, raw, and seq.) I tried using this today, and jack would not start. Do you know if this been implemented yet, or do i need to configure something else to get this running? This is fairly obviously related to the ongoing search for more midi ports for reaper, but i do fear that wine is configured with a midi port limit that may prevent me from unleashing a full blown, near naked, fair maiden plundering, midi nirvana, into a poor unsuspecting Reaper. (Which is, as an aside, smooth as silk in ubs. I still cannot believe how well it runs outside of its īnormal'environment...)
Iīve been to the jacklab forum, but there doesnīt seem to be much info on this.

I thank you and the other wizards here for the input gents. Iīd still be trying to install all this without the help youīve given. It is MUCH appreciated.

Cheers!

Alex.

Wandering from one ubuntu tree to another....Which one holds the key?....

StudioDave
12-21-2007, 11:39 AM
re: building MScore

I keep getting errors that the make process can't find CMAKE-2.4, even though it IS installed here.

Where is it located ? The configuration routine may expect it in only one location, e.g. /usr/bin but not in /usr/local/bin.

bullshark
12-21-2007, 12:03 PM
This happened to me the first time I installed it. There is a page in the installer with some confusing graphics, something like this:

[_] Audio Apps
[_] Multimedia
[_] Video apps
[_] Desktop

etc.

The spaces between the brackets need to have asterisks put in them. I think with the arrow keys and spacebar?? I sort of forget. But don't press enter here until you have asterisks next to everything! I complained on the ubuntu forums about this--glad to see I wasn't the only one confused.

What installer defaults with everything OFF????

This way you will get a desktop AND some applications. Not that you're out of the woods, but at least you know you are IN the woods.

Aaaaah yes. Got it going now (I'm typing this from my new UbuntuStudio install). Thank you, and yes it's weird that it would default to everything "off", even weirder that it would go "next" when pressing "enter" while "next" isn't even highlighted...

Anyways, the important thing is that it works now, and work smoother than my last Linux trial.

Tallisman
12-21-2007, 01:40 PM
Alex, thanks for starting this thread!
Thank you to all the contributors!
I love this community and this is one of my favourite discussions.
what fun!

Many Holiday Greetings
.tallis

funkster1
12-21-2007, 04:36 PM
re: building MScore

Where is it located ? The configuration routine may expect it in only one location, e.g. /usr/bin but not in /usr/local/bin.

Cheers Dave,

If it did expect a certain location, could I simply create some symlinks in those different folders where apps seem to look for their executable? I.e. creating symlinks in /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, /usr/sbin etc?

I'll have another look at it in the next week or so, because I still have some work to do and it's christmas time after all. Meaning I won't (don't wanna) spend all my time on the PC. Beside, girl friend wouldn't be very happy if I did. :D

@Alex:
I'm absolutely no crack at linux (not yet at least *lol*), so I think you could have done as well (or worse/same) as me.
You seem pretty determined to persevere in your Linux-Audio adventure.
In all source packages you can always find a README, where the steps to building are generally roughly or well explained, incl commands to issue in a terminal.
So just keep going and experimenting.
Maybe it'll be a good idea to image your linux system now that it's running reasonably well for you. So you could continue to try out stuff and come back to a prior state if you f**k things up.*lol*

My copy of Acronis True Image i.e. is well capable to also image my Linux systems/partitions and also correctly restore them, not only Windows.

Merry X-Mas to ya all once again.

Raphael ;)

Jack Winter
12-21-2007, 04:48 PM
Cheers Dave,

If it did expect a certain location, could I simply create some symlinks in those different folders where apps seem to look for their executable? I.e. creating symlinks in /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, /usr/sbin etc?


You could also edit the makefile!

funkster1
12-21-2007, 05:23 PM
You could also edit the makefile!

Cheers Jack,
thanks a lot for this tip. That's good to know. ;)

Raphael ;)

StudioDave
12-21-2007, 05:25 PM
If it did expect a certain location, could I simply create some symlinks in those different folders where apps seem to look for their executable? I.e. creating symlinks in /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, /usr/sbin etc?

Yes, you can safely create the links.

A very Happy Holidays to everyone here, and may we all make joyful noises throughout the new year !

Drumfix
12-22-2007, 10:16 AM
@Alex Stone: wine currently has a limit of 16 midi in/out ports (and this is what you should be able to use).
if you want more you will have to recompile wine with the number
of MAX_MIDIOUTDRV and MAX_MIDIINDRV in file <wine-src>/include/mmddk.h
set to appropriate values.

Alex Stone
12-22-2007, 10:29 AM
@Alex Stone: wine currently has a limit of 16 midi in/out ports (and this is what you should be able to use).
if you want more you will have to recompile wine with the number
of MAX_MIDIOUTDRV and MAX_MIDIINDRV in file <wine-src>/include/mmddk.h
set to appropriate values.

Aaah, i was wondering if that was the case.
Thanks for the heads up Drumfix, saves me wasting time trying to do something that can't be done. And i suppose that rules out quietly sneaking into a config file somewhere and just changing the numbers. :)
I am nowhere near smart enough to recompile wine, so i'll keep going with other stuff.

Alex.

Alex Stone
12-23-2007, 07:22 AM
Raphael,

In a moment of foolish bravado, i attempted to compile mscore 0.8.0 from source, and got a consistent cmake error. I'm lost from here even with quite a bit of researching on the google late last night. I have cmake installed, so i'm not sure what's going on. Is there a procedure to go to from here?


Alex.

p.s. Drumfix, i've asked in the wine forums if the devs will consider increasing the number of midi ports in wine for a future build.
We'll see what happens.

funkster1
12-23-2007, 07:52 AM
Hi Alex,
it seems that some path are 'hardcoded' into the make file.
This is written in the README, which you can find after unpacking the tarball.

I'll write to Werner Schweer about this issue after the holidays.
For the time being, I'm stuck with the same problem, and I'll be unable to further look into it the coming days.
From thursday/friday on I'll have again some more time to spend with these things.
So I'm really sorry if I can't help you atm.
But sometimes it is best anyway, to leave things alone for a few days. Like by magic, many a problems can be solved by looking at them a bit later, and suddenly you have those little 'dancers' in front of your eyes/mind, telling you exactly what to do :D

Greets
Raphael ;)

Alex Stone
12-23-2007, 08:09 AM
Hi Alex,
it seems that some path are 'hardcoded' into the make file.
This is written in the README, which you can find after unpacking the tarball.

I'll write to Werner Schweer about this issue after the holidays.
For the time being, I'm stuck with the same problem, and I'll be unable to further look into it the coming days.
From thursday/friday on I'll have again some more time to spend with these things.
So I'm really sorry if I can't help you atm.
But sometimes it is best anyway, to leave things alone for a few days. Like by magic, many a problems can be solved by looking at them a bit later, and suddenly you have those little 'dancers' in front of your eyes/mind, telling you exactly what to do :D

Greets
Raphael ;)

Thanks for trying this Raphael, i do appreciate it. At the moment on the ubuntustudio mailing list, there is a lady called Susan (a linux enthusiast) who's going to try this, and writes with some confidence in being successful. She's using the Hardy version of Ubuntustudio (next one coming after gutsy), which seems to bode well. She's also going to 'walk me through' the process, and if i'm successful, i will post the procedure here.

If it works, then i may be able to use this as a driver for midi, and an external notation editor for Reaper. That's my intent, and i'll post with results or otherwise.

Exciting stuff this linux, lol!

Alex.

Alex Stone
12-23-2007, 03:19 PM
Raphael, it works! Alex swinging from the chandelier clutching a cognac... :)

I've been in touch with the dev today, and Werner gave me some valuable tips on which dev libraries i DIDN'T have installed.
It all seems more obvious now, but then it always does i guess.

I also got some tips on what to look for in the errors, the main culprits being libc6, qt4 4.3, tetex, and alsa library dev packages. (I didn't have any of these installed, so it was inevitable i was going to have probs. Doh.)

At the risk of sounding cocky lol, if you can send me the build probs you had, maybe i can share my experience gleaned from making a lot of mistakes of my own today. (I was at this all day. Never give up, never surrender...)

Dave's right. Once you get past the initial apprehension of compiling from source, it's quite exhilerating to bring it all together, and thoroughly interesting to try and figure it out along the way.

I am stoked at this step forward....!

Alex.

funkster1
12-24-2007, 06:35 AM
Hi Alex,
great to hear about your success.
Since I don't read/write notation very well (almost not at all), I have never felt the need for notation software, except for transforming sheet music into MIDI files. But if you manage(d) to create a deb package out of the tarball, you're most welcomed to upload it somewhere. I would certainly have a look at it, just out of curiosity.

The errors that keep coming back to me are still to do with CMake and Cpack. I'll past the error output from the terminal after X-Mas.

You see, it ain't THAT hard, provided you're willing to dig a bit deeper yourself and get yer hands dirty. :D
I found the linux guys generally to be quite helpful if you make some effort by yourself. They don't really like to take people by the hand and explain things from a-z, but prefer help to help yourself (does that make any sense in english?).

Cheers
rAPHAEL ;)

Alex Stone
12-24-2007, 08:24 AM
Hi Alex,
great to hear about your success.
Since I don't read/write notation very well (almost not at all), I have never felt the need for notation software, except for transforming sheet music into MIDI files. But if you manage(d) to create a deb package out of the tarball, you're most welcomed to upload it somewhere. I would certainly have a look at it, just out of curiosity.

The errors that keep coming back to me are still to do with CMake and Cpack. I'll past the error output from the terminal after X-Mas.

You see, it ain't THAT hard, provided you're willing to dig a bit deeper yourself and get yer hands dirty. :D
I found the linux guys generally to be quite helpful if you make some effort by yourself. They don't really like to take people by the hand and explain things from a-z, but prefer help to help yourself (does that make any sense in english?).

Cheers
rAPHAEL ;)

Raph, it works well, and i'm enjoying the updated midi features. Werner's been very forthcoming with help and is open to suggestions, so i sent a small list which he is considering. (and in the spirit of Reaper, i asked for notes, dynamics, symbols, etc... to be KC assignable as well. He seems to like that idea, so hopefully i can co-ordinate them with Reaper, and use a similar set for both. Mouse Tools. Who needs 'em! :) )

right, it's back to the digital parchment for me.....

Alex.

Alex Stone
12-25-2007, 07:23 AM
Ok, a quick follow up.....

After stretching the mental muscles a little, and a lot of googling, it's a lot easier to get the head around installing programmes from source, and i would suggest to those who are new to linux like me, to take your time and read the 'read me' and install instructions for each package as they can vary slightly. (and no, it's not like you have to read a manual, so don't panic, lol.)

Nearly all of the recent installs needed dev, or development libraries, and often some that seemed obscure, or not at first glance directly associated with an audio package. At this infant stage of learning, i don't understand it either, but it did raise an interesting by product, so to speak.
The pace of development for different packages and development stages is varied. Some packages are quite old, and sparsely maintained, and others are 'active', with dev libraries being updated.
In two of these installs (and i tried quite a few) i had to downgrade two libraries to earlier versions to get the install to work. (and after installing, i was able to 're upgrade' to a newer version)
So maybe this is worth considering if an install doesn't work first time, even if you think you have the dev library installed properly. (jack-dssi-vst being just one example of this.) I can only speak for ubuntustudio, but the default install doesn't load quite a few dev packages, so synaptic is your friend here.
All of the installs gave me clues as to which devs i needed, so it's certainly not a stab in the dark. (and another example was the location of qt3/4. Most programmes knew where it was, but a couple needed a reminder. The command for this was: export QTDIR=/your/location/for/qt )

In the ongoing pursuit of expanding the number of midi ports in wine (for Reaper) i did quite a bit of research on this too. Installing wine from source is no sinecure (It's a big complicated mother of a programme), and after checking over what i need to do, i will admit i baulked at the idea for now. Maybe when the knowledge is more firmly implanted in the skull, i will attempt this, not only for 32 bit, but 64bit too. (with 4,280 midi ports, so i won't have to address this into the future, lol.)

I also researched the current state of midi in jack, and the chance of this appearing in wine, but have had no answers so far. (I think wineasio is a significant part of this, so i hope that particular development proceeeds apace.) I will post anything i receive as an answer....

For the wizards here, i installed an organ package called Azr3. It would work ok i think, but for a problem with the midi port that shows up in jack. There are three tabs in qjackctl, Audio,Midi, and Alsa (midi). The Azr3 shows up as a Jack midi port, and is the only one in the connect page for that tab. The rest are in Alsa midi.
How do i connect these? Because so far, it's resisted all attempts to do so. I do understand that the midi architectures are separate, but how do you 'tux'edo Gandalfs get around this? I googled the hell out of this one, and fell on stony ground for answers.

Any help is always appreciated!

We've been spoiled for choice with Reaper, as far as being able to manipulate or change the theme of our working environment. In Ubuntustudio, the default 'theme' is Gnome, which like any window set provokes likes and dislikes. The notation programmes i've been trying are victims of this, as up until yesterday, they appeared as a blinding white, and were distinctly hard on the eyes. (they seemed to have been developed with kde, or some other visual framework in mind).
All is not lost for those who want to use UBs (and it's Gnomical tendencies), but are daunted by the glare, lol. Simply install the KDE base package, and any tweaks you do will change those programmes inclined to a kde default appearance. Works a treat, and the blinding glare has been replaced by a soothing (and probably boring for most) silver grey.
Relief at last........

Right, more to come at a later time...........

Alex.

p.s. I continue to be impressed with how robust and modular Linux is in the current state of maturity. A long way from the daunting prospect of predominately command line operation that seemed to be the case some time ago. Everyone will have their own success and failures according to their experience level, and the whim of the digital hardware gods, but i have been impressed with ubuntustudio, and it's ease of use for a dummy like me. If anyone is considering the switch, it's worth a little time doing some research, because (imho) the freedom of choice in picking which components you want to install is worth it.

I have held off submitting any FRs for Reaper since J and the team got stuck into the mac build. Personally, i think that's fair, and a reasonable stance to take. We've been extremely fortunate to have had direct and ongoing contact with the Reap team for quite a some time (and i've learnt that Reap devs have a sense of humour. A novel concept in the world of genius geekdom, lol.) and giving them the chance to breathe, and focus helps us all in the longer term, as we've seen. (imho)

For just this one brief moment, and for a 'well in the future' consideration, i ask the Reap team to, however briefly or seriously, muse over the possibility of building 'Jackasio' or some equivalent, (even not asio) for use in Reaper/wine/linux. There's a gap there that could really open up a big window for wine/linux users. I was thoroughly pleased with the ease with which Rearoute worked for me in win. Something like that (as recognisable audio/midi ports in a Jack server instance?) would expand the potential (imho) considerably. And Jack has proved (for me at least) to be powerful, fast, versatile, and reliable as an audio/midi/routing/playback/alround option.
Just two roubles worth..

Alex Stone
12-25-2007, 02:56 PM
Drumfix, i thank you for the great heads up. After deciding to wander out onto the bleeding ledge, i recompiled wine from source today with changes to the relavent file. So Reaper now gets 32 ports, instead of 16. It works, and wasn't as difficult as i thought it'd be, although it took most of the day.
If anyone's going to try this, you may have to remove and recompile wineasio as well. I know i did.

And this way, i'll know that if 32 midi ports aren't enough, i can always recompile, making the neccessary adjustments.
The best part was, i didn't have to reinstall my win progs again, as the new install picked up the old settings.

Drumfix, thanks. I appreciate the input.

I remain somewhat amused, that this isn't possible in win or mac, and i've spent years juggling within a restricted framework, in os's that don't give me the opportunity to choose.

Aaahh, the things you learn, eh?

Alex.

:)

p.s. Now i'll try and figure out how to keep the audio 'away' from alsa, until the very last moment (using jack to route everything), and see if we can have a shedload of audio channels as well........

Alex Stone
12-26-2007, 06:27 AM
After starting the linux/reaper journey, and having been intensely involved in figuring out many things along the way, directly related to using Reaper in this environment, i've sat back and thought about what could we do with as linux users, to complete a 'one stop' working midi/audio workplace. It's also fair to say we've all got different requirements of the tools we use, so my thoughts on this are my own, and may not be suitable or relavent to others.
I guess some would call these feature requests, but i'm putting them up as ideas, and open to discussion to be enthused about, or shot down in incandescent flames.

So here goes:

1) Reaper, built with it's own mini linux 'wrapper', removed from reliance on wine. The wrapper to be constructed in such a way as to allow Reaper to access Jack/Alsa/Audio/Midi (user's choice) directly, without having to go into wine alsa and out again. As Reaper doesn't rely on the registry, i'm wondering if it would be easier to do this with R, than other more registry reliant programmes. My reasoning for this is to avoid or circumvent the wine audio bottleneck of limited hardware in and out ports. with the 'Reawrapper' the audio stream doesn't hit the hardware until the last moment, enabling a user to create any number of audio streams or channels in the compositional/mixing/engineering stage before the signal has to be go the most limited part of the process, the audio hardware. (e.g. Linuxsampler with 64 audio ports via jack, straight into Reaper's 64, mixed down to 2, 4, 6, etc..channels, then back into jack for alsa to playback. No bottleneck.) And the same with midi. Any number of assignable midi ports going both ways (multi ways) between selected linux programmes, through Jack, to Reaper, etc...

2) Reaper to have a new porting format, along the lines of Rearoute, etc..that recognises Jack, across wine, or bypassing it, and is recognisable by Jack, and linux programmes in return. Currently, with wineasio, Reaper can show up in Jack, as an identifiable port (s). A similiar setup with Reasio, or a 'non-denominational' format? Not reliant on wineasio at all?

3)Virtual Jack/Reaper audio 'cables.' I have, and have used in win, virtual audio cables to connect programmes together, with the intent of keeping the audio stream away from the hardware until the last moment. Works well, and something like this for Reaper/Jack/Linux could provide us with an almost unlimited supply of audio ports for interaction between programmes with the culmination of all signal at hardware.

4) I've yet to explore the possibility of streaming audio/midi within a network framework on the one box. So, more as a question, has anyone tried this? Can a network be setup between linux, and Reaper, outside of wine audio/midi to, once again, bypass the audio/midi components of wine audio/midi devices, and use wine merely as a pseudo 'extra network place' to stream to and from Reaper? I'd be interestedin finding out if this possible, as extensive googling has failed to reveal an answer, or even interest in this.


Ok, that's enough to go on with.

Note: Some of you may say, after reading this, that i've missed the most obvious solution/idea, and that's having Reaper as a pure linux programme. I haven't suggested this deliberately, as i feel that Reaper is, a commercial venture, ergo, outside of the philosophy of linux gpl. It's my opinion that if J and the team were to do this, i would naturally be delighted, but conversely it would relegate Reaper to a potential conflict of interest, and put unneccessary pressure on the Reaper team to 'comply' with the spirit and intent of linux. I think that the current situation, where Reaper enjoys a status of it's own, outside of GPL requirements, and outside of the 'accepted' path of currently heavily commercialised and restricted daws, is a unique balance, and one we should work to support, among those of us who continue to be enthusiastic about Reaper and its development.

Just two roubles worth.

Alex.

404NotFound
12-26-2007, 07:03 AM
The main problems with streamlining Wine for exclusive use with Reaper are the plugins: They may depend on various parts of the Win API which Reaper doesn't need, so fewer plugins will run on "ReaWine". Keeping the whole Wine environment for the plugins would propably the best choice.

Otherwise, the idea of a native Reaper for Linux would make more sense. The application itself could enjoy all the benefits of Linux AND the compatibility with Win VST can still be achieved: Look at the way VST is implemented in Ardour - it's a module which loads a wrapper via Wine. Maybe we will see the same method in a native Linux Reaper.

There is one more advantage: A native Reaper can also use Ladspa, Ladspa v2 and DSSI plugins ;)

StudioDave
12-26-2007, 09:47 AM
Some of you may say, after reading this, that i've missed the most obvious solution/idea, and that's having Reaper as a pure linux programme. I haven't suggested this deliberately, as i feel that Reaper is, a commercial venture, ergo, outside of the philosophy of linux gpl. It's my opinion that if J and the team were to do this, i would naturally be delighted, but conversely it would relegate Reaper to a potential conflict of interest, and put unneccessary pressure on the Reaper team to 'comply' with the spirit and intent of linux. I think that the current situation, where Reaper enjoys a status of it's own, outside of GPL requirements, and outside of the 'accepted' path of currently heavily commercialised and restricted daws, is a unique balance, and one we should work to support, among those of us who continue to be enthusiastic about Reaper and its development.

I'm going to ramble a bit (a lot) in this reply, forgive me for rambling (I have the week off, huzzah!). First, thanks again for a great message. You can imagine my delight at following your venture into Linux generally and into the more specific domain of the Linux audio software stack (and you can also probably imagine how utterly different that experience was in 1995).

Your plan is excellent, but as 404 already mentioned you'll end up needing a Win32 layer anyway, so you may as well design something like the PureDyne distribution, i.e. a Linux distribution tailored to do one thing: to run Reaper with all its features intact. Such a system should have little trouble supporting by default most of the typical Linux audio/MIDI softs (Ardour, Hydrogen, Rosegarden, MusE, etc), so you'd have a powerful streamlined distro. In fact, the Dynebolic documentation includes instructions for creating your own custom distribution, based on Dynebolic and thus optimized for multimedia performance.

Wrt your quoted passage: I've just published a 2-part article in LJ regarding commercial audio/MIDI software for Linux. Frankly, I don't see any problem with the Reaper devels selling a native Linux version (should they ever decide to make one). It's always worth remembering that the whole FSF/GPL/FOSS thing is *optional* for users and developers. Yes, the Linux community is largely populated by people into the free and open-source software development model, but there's no necessary restriction to commercial opportunity. Richard Stallman has always maintained that commercialism is not opposed to the principles of free software.

The developers of eXT2 sell a native Linux version. People have bought it, they're happy with it, and they make music with it. There ya go, success. ;)

Btw, Linux != GPL. It is licensed under the GPL, with parts under the LGPL, but the GPL was around before Linux.

The "spirit and intent" of Linux is a variable thing, perhaps not so well-defined as we might think. The system has grown outrageously in a sort of bizarre controlled sprawl. It's quite Darwinian, I've seen lots of stuff take its shot and die the death, simply because another coder came up with something better, and that coder too is perfectly aware that the system's evolution will someday jettison his contribution in favor of a better solution. The "spirit" here is that of a cooperative meritocracy, i.e. everyone sees everyone's contribution, everyone is encouraged to evaluate it openly, and further enhancement and optimization is welcomed and subjected to the same review cycles.

Sometimes bigger things happen because of profound differences. Do you know how GTK and Qt came to be the dominant GUI toolkits on Linux ? It's another weird story, and the results have been a mixed blessing. Windows and Mac developers shake their heads at an OS that offers not one GUI toolkit, but two! This factor is not a plus when it comes to porting from the Win/Mac world, and I believe that choice in this area has been an impediment to interested developers.

Happily, things are changing. There's more cross-platform development on the part of the Linux audio coders (JACK runs on Windows now, btw), and frameworks like JUCE and wx offer sophisticated environments for such development on the Win/Mac side (Tracktion is built with the JUCE framework). Many Windows developers are happy to open their source code and even place it under the GPL, which definitely promotes cross-pollination (various projects have ported open-source VST plugins; see the JOST project for some great examples).

I don't use Reaper all that often. I have a work-style that's been defined over decades, and of course the Linux influence is heavy in me now. But after looking around, Reaper is the Windows sequencer/host that works best for my students. Some of them might be able to afford Cubase or SONAR, but most of them have little or no disposable income for something like a full-blown DAW software package. Reaper's pricing policy is sane and encouraging, and I think perhaps other manufacturers should consider it. And if Reaper isn't all things to all people, it is still amazing for its features, its performance, and its community. Plus, it *is* improving all the time (literally, it seems: does Justin ever sleep?), and its developers are clearly listening to the comments and criticisms of the community.

I've been out of using Windows *at all* since 1999. I've also been 'way out of touch with the terrific developments that have occurred in the Win/Mac music software world, and I've really been having fun catching up. This forum has been most helpful, and I've learned a lot from the hard-core Reaperites here. It's apparent that there's no perfect world, and that Herculean efforts often must be made to create a usable Windows-based DAW too. Lines are blurring: I know a guy who sequences with Cubase, routing his guitar first through a Linux machine dedicated to effects processing via Csound5. Another friend composes and sequences with native Linux software, but masters his work with SONAR. Mixed systems are inevitable, and programmers know that cross-platform development can be very lucrative.

Okay, time for more coffee. I have to debug a problem with the Open Music composition software from IRCAM. The problem is thorny, more caffeine is definitely required.

Thanks for making it this far. We now return to our regularly scheduled programming. :)

Drumfix
12-26-2007, 01:45 PM
Regarding the number of audioports:

You can set the number of jack port up to 1024, either in qjackctl
or as a commandline option to jackd.
You also con set the number of wineasio inputs/outputs by setting
environment variables ASIO_INPUTS and ASIO_OUTPUTS.

and if you happen to have a 64bit system with more than 4GB ram,
you can use either the "netjack" method to connect several
wine instances (with wineasio applications) to 32bit jackd and
that to a 64bit jackd (through netjack) or use my newer
wineasio version, which connects 32bit wineasio apps to a
64bit jackd though a shared memory jackbridge.
Reaper instances can also be synced through asio sync
now using the jack transport.

So in fact, the only limit in a current linux environment
is set by the capabilities of your hardware.

Alex Stone
12-26-2007, 02:18 PM
Regarding the number of audioports:

You can set the number of jack port up to 1024, either in qjackctl
or as a commandline option to jackd.
You also con set the number of wineasio inputs/outputs by setting
environment variables ASIO_INPUTS and ASIO_OUTPUTS.

and if you happen to have a 64bit system with more than 4GB ram,
you can use either the "netjack" method to connect several
wine instances (with wineasio applications) to 32bit jackd and
that to a 64bit jackd (through netjack) or use my newer
wineasio version, which connects 32bit wineasio apps to a
64bit jackd though a shared memory jackbridge.
Reaper instances can also be synced through asio sync
now using the jack transport.

So in fact, the only limit in a current linux environment
is set by the capabilities of your hardware.

Drum, thanks for this. I've set up inputs and outputs for the alsa hardware (2 in,8 out.) And i had no idea you are the dev of wineasio, so thanks very much, and all credit to you for a fine bit of software. I'm getting a lot out of it, and i'm sure others are too. It's appreciated.

I'm trying to get my head around all of this in a hurry, so please bear with me. I'm trying to bypass the hardware at the 'audio transfer to/from ls to reaper stage' so i can run ls into reaper with a stack of channels, then mix down to the limit of my hardware only at the end of the audio stream. (I do have 4gb of ram, and and amd x2 dual core 5600+, so the netbit is a real consideration.)

Are you saying here, that i can, in effect, 'tell' wineasio (through i presume the config file) that i have 64 audio ports in/out, (Ls to/from/reaper) and it will see them, as long as the LAST part of the audio stream goes down to the limit of my hardware? (I have Jack using alsa as the hardware device as the default) Does this mean that setting a defined number of inputs and outputs in wineasiocfg effectively 'overrides' the default, which i presume is based on the hardware.

So wineasio is in effect a 'virtual device' that isn't reliant on hardware specs, if defined settings override hardware default?

I'm running ubs32 at the moment, although i have the 64 cd ready to fly, lol.

How does this show up in wine config? A straight reflection of the wine asio settings, or the 'real' hardware settings? And is the config setting in wine the real bottleneck in my case, or am i getting the wrong end of the stick here?
I have jack set to 512 ports in qjackctl.
The wineasio version 0.7.2, compiled yesterday.

Here's the screenshot of current jack settings:

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/15745/Screenshot.png

EDIT: I tried changing the inputs and outputs in wineasiocfg, to no avail. Any setting, other than hardware limits wouldn't work. (Reaper came up with an audio deivce error message)

The learning curve is indeed steep, interesting, and largely successful thanks to you and the others here who give generously of their knowledge. I have to say, starting this thread is the smartest thing i've done in a while! :)

Alex.

Drumfix
12-26-2007, 03:17 PM
Well, the original author was Robert Reif, who did it as a patch to wine. But due to the ASIO licence issues it was not accepted into the wine tree.
I took it, modified some odds and pieces and made it compilable separately. The wineasiocfg is a contribution by Peter L Jones, and
there have been some more small patches by other people recently.
You can tell wineasio how many ins/outs you want (read the readme.txt). It will just
autoconnect any physical in/outs for convenience, but you can define more.

The other version with the jackbridge (actually only for testing)
you can find here:
http://people.jacklab.net/drumfix/wineasio-x.2.tgz
Here the number of input/outputs must be set in the common.h header file before compiling and no autoconnects will be performed. As always read the readme.txt.

Note that wineasio-x will get obsolete as soon as the jack devs get their 64/32bit related bugs sorted.

cern.th.skei
12-26-2007, 03:26 PM
sorry if this is too off-topic or something.. just ignore or delete if necessary...

isn't the realtime kernel needed anymore for using jack/qjackctl i realtime mode?

i run the 2.6.22-14-generic kernel now, qjackctl status reports "Realtime mode: Yes"...

am i losing anything by using the realtime mode with the generic (ubuntu) kernel?

- cern.th.skei

404NotFound
12-26-2007, 04:57 PM
Reaper instances can also be synced through asio sync
now using the jack transport.

Does this mean, Reaper behaves just like every transport-aware Jack client!?

/me jumps around happily :D

Alex Stone
12-26-2007, 09:43 PM
After several attempts at this, i'm still reliant on the physical hardware in outs for audio ports, for everything to work.

So i'm still in the hunt for a set of 'virtual' audio ports (like VAC) crossing from pure linux through wine into Reaper, and back again, before hitting the alsa pcm.

Another interesting conudrum in the linux adventure!

Alex.

Drumfix
12-27-2007, 05:12 AM
LOL, guess you just discovered a bug :)

Try with http://people.jacklab.net/drumfix/wineasio-0.7.3.tar.bz2

@Hartmut: This version has working jack transport sync
(reaper as slave). You will need this reaper version though:

http://reaper.fm/files/reaper2020_appupd.zip

Enable sync to asio in reaper and find the right values for
look ahead and the like.

Alex Stone
12-27-2007, 05:51 AM
LOL, guess you just discovered a bug :)

Try with http://people.jacklab.net/drumfix/wineasio-0.7.3.tar.bz2

@Hartmut: This version has working jack transport sync
(reaper as slave). You will need this reaper version though:

http://reaper.fm/files/reaper2020_appupd.zip

Enable sync to asio in reaper and find the right values for
look ahead and the like.

Success!!

It works. I'm now enthralled with the prospect of having 32 ins and 32 outs to use, and the opportunity to have more if i need em.. Wonderful stuff. With all that lovely routing in Reaper, i'm going to have a good time setting all this up.

Drum, thanks very much. One step closer to compositional nirvana!

Interesting thing is, i tweaked Jack and alsa a bit further while doing this, and the cpu's dropped quite a bit. (15% with all programmes open, to just under 9%)

Things are shaping up nicely.

Now i'm off to test the asio sync........

Alex.

p.s. Please forgive my enthusiasm. I had many painful years fighting to juggle orchestral resources in win and mac, and fighting to get everything done.
Now i'm finally freeeeeeee.......... :)

StudioDave
12-27-2007, 02:06 PM
http://people.jacklab.net/drumfix/wineasio-0.7.3.tar.bz2

This version has working jack transport sync
(reaper as slave). You will need this reaper version though:

http://reaper.fm/files/reaper2020_appupd.zip


Will it work with version 2.025 ?

Alex Stone
12-27-2007, 10:51 PM
Will it work with version 2.025 ?

Works here with 2025, Dave.

Alex.

Alex Stone
12-28-2007, 04:38 AM
Ok gents, the next step forward in linux bleeding edge exploration.

I've had communication with Christian and Benno over at linuxsampler, and got some really useful tips for streamlining and performance. I'm about to give this a go, and i thank both these chaps for their clear and concise explanation.

One question remains before i don the armour and go slashing into the night, fearless and foolish.

In CXXFLAGS, i get to nominate the cpu i'm using, and with the cat command, my processor comes up as two cores. After googling for a more precise answer, i came up with more choices than i'd bargained for, and no clear direction in which to go.

I have an AMD64 x2 dual core 5600+.

Here's the line i will need to make compile specific instruction in:

CXXFLAGS="-O3 -msse -march=pentium4 -mfpmath=sse -ffast-math -fomit-frame-pointer -funroll-loops" ./configure --prefix=/usr --mandir=\$${prefix}/share/man --infodir=\$${prefix}/share/info

How do i enter this particular cpu in the line? (What's the syntax for this particular processor?)

Any help will, as always, be appreciated.

And the excitement continues..............

Alex!

p.s. I see after googling, that it's considered wise to remove the old install before compiling and installing a new one. Is this correct (I've been spoiled by the smooth Reaper overbuild), and how, in linux, do i remove the old build, if it doesn't appear in synaptic?

Drumfix
12-28-2007, 05:26 AM
Use -march=athlon64 instead of -march=pentium4

Alex Stone
12-28-2007, 05:27 AM
Use -march=athlon64 instead of -march=pentium4

Thanks Drum.

Alex.

Alex Stone
12-29-2007, 01:37 AM
Ok, another step forward in the linux journey, and this time with updates.

Firstly, my thanks to Christian, Grigor, Benno, and Rui, for all their help with linuxsampler and qsampler (the gui.) After a flurry of emails, and a lot of help from them, getting me up and running and fine tuning the system, LS is no longer limited to 99 channels, and makes much better use of the resources i have.

So if you have a lot of instruments and articulations like me, in gig format, you can load em up to the gunwales, limited only by your hardware. I used to get between 700-800mb worth of instrument/samples in Gigasampler in Win, before it spat the dummy, and usually crashed hard. (BSOD, i don't miss it at all.)

In LS, and with room to breathe, i'm getting 2.4GB of instrument samples, and with (so far) 156 sample instruments loaded. I have 4GB of ram,so there's quite a bit of headroom.
I'm going to take on a full size, everything included,template soon, and see how far i get.
On top of the above, the value of LS lies in its ability to create and destroy ports at will,for midi or audio, depending on your needs of the time. Like Reaper's wonderful routing, the LS port methodology grows on you, and the more i use it, the more i appreciate the versatility of such an arrangement.

I'm posting this so those who are considering trying linux, and have gig libraries, aren't put off by a perception that they can't use them in linux. They can, and well.
I've done a lot of research and work setting this up, so if anyone is considering this, and is not sure, please ask. I'll do my best (given i'm new at this and linux in general) to walk you through the stages involved. (a big thank you to 404, who got me started with this.)

Further to this, LS now plays nicely with Reaper in Wine, with a new Jack server for multicore, called Jackdmp.
And the setup is as follows:

In LS, we have the ability to set up more than one 'virtual' audio device. I use jack for mine (you can choose arts or alsa as well), and have two, each one with about 32 audio channels. These show up in jack as two seperate audio devices. I can assign these devices across two cores, balancing the load, so to speak, and with a big orchestral template, this is kind of a neccessity to stop the pc glowing with effort.

And the 'transition' into Reaper/Wine is handled by an updated wineasio (thanks Drumfix, the update works a treat), and a winecompile with some parameters set during compile time. This sounds difficult, but it isn't, i just needed to take my time, and follow each step carefully. Linux has, as i've said before, come a long way towards being user friendly, and still maintains a high degree of tweakability. If i can do it, then others have a good chance of success.... :)

I'm really beginning to appreciate the modular nature of this type of OS, and as the knowledge grows, so the refining does too. There doesn't seem, at this stage, to be anything a user can't tweak or set to mould and shape linux to one's own needs, within the confines of hardware limitations, and i've found linux to make far better use of those resources than generically built os's, like win. I continue to be impressed.

More to come in the linux/reaper saga........

Alex.

StudioDave
12-29-2007, 03:46 AM
I see after googling, that it's considered wise to remove the old install before compiling and installing a new one. Is this correct (I've been spoiled by the smooth Reaper overbuild), and how, in linux, do i remove the old build, if it doesn't appear in synaptic?

With a new Wine build you'll be reminded by the procedure if you have a previous version installed, and you'll be asked if you want the process to remove it. Just say Yes and let the installer do its stuff. Have another cognac. :)

A *big* caveat: If you're compiling stuff that's already installed via Synaptic or a similar package manager you really should use the manager to remove the old package before building and installing from sources. The default destination for most autotools-type builds from source code (i.e. ./configure; make; make install) is the /usr/local directory, the default directory for package installs is /usr. Thus, no over-write and then you do indeed have a little mess.

Ah, but help is at hand. Source builds usually include a 'make uninstall'. As you'll discover, there's more than one "builder", and you may well run across such entities as cmake, ant, and scons, all of which should include an uninstall routine.

Generally, a fresh installation overwrites the previous one, but why take chances ? ;)

Shan
12-29-2007, 04:23 AM
...I used to get between 700-800mb worth of instrument/samples in Gigasampler in Win, before it spat the dummy, and usually crashed hard. (BSOD, i don't miss it at all.)

In LS, and with room to breathe, i'm getting 2.4GB of instrument samples, and with (so far) 156 sample instruments loaded. I have 4GB of ram,so there's quite a bit of headroom.


Alex.

Dude! Holy [BLEEP]!!! That's quite the big performance gain!

Shane

Alex Stone
12-29-2007, 05:12 AM
Dude! Holy [BLEEP]!!! That's quite the big performance gain!

Shane

A worthy understatement dear fellow.

When i think of all the times i pleaded, cajoled, bribed, bashed, argued with, railed over, and gnashed my teeth, trying to get Gigasampler to realise some sort of reasonable potential.........

Hehe, memories, Wonderful.

NOT!


:)

Alex Stone
12-29-2007, 05:15 AM
With a new Wine build you'll be reminded by the procedure if you have a previous version installed, and you'll be asked if you want the process to remove it. Just say Yes and let the installer do its stuff. Have another cognac. :)

A *big* caveat: If you're compiling stuff that's already installed via Synaptic or a similar package manager you really should use the manager to remove the old package before building and installing from sources. The default destination for most autotools-type builds from source code (i.e. ./configure; make; make install) is the /usr/local directory, the default directory for package installs is /usr. Thus, no over-write and then you do indeed have a little mess.

Ah, but help is at hand. Source builds usually include a 'make uninstall'. As you'll discover, there's more than one "builder", and you may well run across such entities as cmake, ant, and scons, all of which should include an uninstall routine.

Generally, a fresh installation overwrites the previous one, but why take chances ? ;)

Thanks for the info Dave. I've discovered a couple so far, lol.
Makes reading the enclosed 'readme' a lot more neccessary!

I 've learnt how to compile debs now, and that seems a much 'cleaner' way to install, and uninstall packages.

As the linux train rounds a curve, will it stay on the tracks?

Only time will tell.......

Alex.

:)

StudioDave
12-29-2007, 06:07 AM
I found the linux guys generally to be quite helpful if you make some effort by yourself. They don't really like to take people by the hand and explain things from a-z, but prefer help to help yourself (does that make any sense in english?).

Perfect sense (to me, anyway). :)

Yes, that's a fair estimation of a large part of the community. In the early days I received guidance from some amazing people, and I learned an incredible lot about debugging from guys like Doug Cook, Bill Schottstaedt, John ffitch, and many other notables in the computer music world. Doug Cook was especially helpful at a time when I knew almost nothing about UNIX and C. I had the ganas and he was willing to guide me through my errors, so that in the end I have a much better understanding of how all this stuff works (and what to do if it doesn't).

I should emphasize that I'm first and foremost a musician with a background that includes a lot of self-teaching and a lot of formal training. I have no collegiate background, I've never formally studied computers or programming, but I have confidence in my intelligence and I have patience. My attitude towards my students is "If I can do it, so can you." It just takes time, dedication, focus, and a jumbo-sized can of elbow grease.

Everyone starts out by knowing little or nothing. We help each other bootstrap ourselves into awareness.

Btw, I've added Alex's story to my list of notable events in Linux audio for 2007. It'll be published on-line for the Linux Journal in a few days (if my editor is back from vacation). Alex's efforts remind of a saying we have in t'ai chi: "An inch of meditation, an inch of Buddha". Obviously Alex has acquired an awfully big bunch of Buddha by now. :)

Alex Stone
12-29-2007, 07:07 AM
Perfect sense (to me, anyway). :)

Yes, that's a fair estimation of a large part of the community. In the early days I received guidance from some amazing people, and I learned an incredible lot about debugging from guys like Doug Cook, Bill Schottstaedt, John ffitch, and many other notables in the computer music world. Doug Cook was especially helpful at a time when I knew almost nothing about UNIX and C. I had the ganas and he was willing to guide me through my errors, so that in the end I have a much better understanding of how all this stuff works (and what to do if it doesn't).

I should emphasize that I'm first and foremost a musician with a background that includes a lot of self-teaching and a lot of formal training. I have no collegiate background, I've never formally studied computers or programming, but I have confidence in my intelligence and I have patience. My attitude towards my students is "If I can do it, so can you." It just takes time, dedication, focus, and a jumbo-sized can of elbow grease.

Everyone starts out by knowing little or nothing. We help each other bootstrap ourselves into awareness.

Btw, I've added Alex's story to my list of notable events in Linux audio for 2007. It'll be published on-line for the Linux Journal in a few days (if my editor is back from vacation). Alex's efforts remind of a saying we have in t'ai chi: "An inch of meditation, an inch of Buddha". Obviously Alex has acquired an awfully big bunch of Buddha by now. :)

Lol, there's another understatement.
I have a near empty tub of elbow grease, a glowing google, and two notebooks so far.
Best of all, i've met some new, clever, gifted human beings, who generously share their knowledge and patience with me, so this journey is their's too.
That in itself makes it worthy of travelling.

Another update!

Tweaked LS further and 260 voices so far, hehe. The pc is playing nicely, and doesn't glow with the effort, which goes to show that a tuned system is better for both the box and the operator. More to come in that regard, although i don't think i'm quite up to building custom kernels just yet. (hmmm, there's a thought....)

The sad news is, with such a large library loaded, I've been forced to up the latency from 4ms to.......5ms.

Sigh............

I'll find a way. I know i will.........

Alex.

:)

funkster1
12-29-2007, 08:38 AM
@Dave:
thank you for your comments & observations. ;)
The things I write here, of course, are what I perceive.
Then, almost everything I know as of today, is near 100% self tought as well. I didn't receive ANY formal training, neither in music education nor in Computer stuff. I'm now a bit over 40 and have started using computers only 5-6 years ago. Before that I never touched one. Many people here are using computers since a very long time, like yourself and also Alex, which certainly helps lots to explore yet uncovered territory.

I know I'm definetely willing, maybe a little less able, to learn new things, alternate solutions to a given problem or whatever.
Though in my case I don't advance as fast as I'd like (for different reasons). Time is probably the ressource I have most at hand, I'm untreatably ill and can't do any physical work anymore since almost 6 years, So I stay home, try out PC's and diff. OS's, make music and many more things.
But since my mind is mostly occupied with worries re: my state of health and the hope that doctors will find a way to help me one day, plus the fact that I'm under heavy medication against the pain makes that I have enormous problems to concentrate for a task at hand and for a period exceeding 30-60 minutes. So I go slowly but steadily.

So I'm ever grateful for chaps like yourself, providing a means to ease the pain of the transition from a Windows env. to a Linux-based DAW.

@Alex:
Man, you're one hell of a glory example to follow.
Your adventure into Linux-Audio is relly worth a read, every single word you write here is like 'fuel' for the curious. The pace at which you're flying towards a better DAW is incredible for someone who never used Linux before.
I really follow your thoughts and writings with great, great pleasure.
The fact that your writing style is also very nice, concise and well articulated helps a lot as well. You advanced way farther in a few weeks than I did in the last 6-9 months. Way to go.
Surely the fact that you're using computers since an eternity helps a lot, like I said above, but it's very impressive nonetheless.

Happy, fruitful, generous new year to ya all
Raphael ;)

steveo42
12-29-2007, 09:18 AM
Just thought I would say this is an amazing thread.
I've been running Linux on my home systems for a couple of years although my DAW system is still Windows.
I truly believe that Linux is the future, it just has to catch on with the masses who are blinded by Microsoft.
I suspect DRM, the failure (mostly) of Vista and the fact that the younger crowd are getting into Linux is going speed things up.

Linux needs more people like the Reaper community and less people like the wacky zealots that live over in comp.os.linux.advocacy.
Go take a look if you want a real laugh.

Alex Stone
12-29-2007, 10:36 AM
@Dave:
thank you for your comments & observations. ;)
The things I write here, of course, are what I perceive.
Then, almost everything I know as of today, is near 100% self tought as well. I didn't receive ANY formal training, neither in music education nor in Computer stuff. I'm now a bit over 40 and have started using computers only 5-6 years ago. Before that I never touched one. Many people here are using computers since a very long time, like yourself and also Alex, which certainly helps lots to explore yet uncovered territory.

I know I'm definetely willing, maybe a little less able, to learn new things, alternate solutions to a given problem or whatever.
Though in my case I don't advance as fast as I'd like (for different reasons). Time is probably the ressource I have most at hand, I'm untreatably ill and can't do any physical work anymore since almost 6 years, So I stay home, try out PC's and diff. OS's, make music and many more things.
But since my mind is mostly occupied with worries re: my state of health and the hope that doctors will find a way to help me one day, plus the fact that I'm under heavy medication against the pain makes that I have enormous problems to concentrate for a task at hand and for a period exceeding 30-60 minutes. So I go slowly but steadily.

So I'm ever grateful for chaps like yourself, providing a means to ease the pain of the transition from a Windows env. to a Linux-based DAW.

@Alex:
Man, you're one hell of a glory example to follow.
Your adventure into Linux-Audio is relly worth a read, every single word you write here is like 'fuel' for the curious. The pace at which you're flying towards a better DAW is incredible for someone who never used Linux before.
I really follow your thoughts and writings with great, great pleasure.
The fact that your writing style is also very nice, concise and well articulated helps a lot as well. You advanced way farther in a few weeks than I did in the last 6-9 months. Way to go.
Surely the fact that you're using computers since an eternity helps a lot, like I said above, but it's very impressive nonetheless.

Happy, fruitful, generous new year to ya all
Raphael ;)

Raph, my friend, i'm self taught too. and given my determined and enthusiastic nature, that means i learn stuff, but smack my forehead on a lot of brick walls too!

I tend to take 1 step forward, three steps sideways, 2 back, 1 up 4 down, etc...But i never, ever, ever give up.
Means i'd be a hell of a dancer as well, if i wasn't hammering away towards a goal i set for myself. And there have been many, lol.
If my nonsensical, enthusiastic, and occasionally humorous scribblings give you some amusement and enjoyment, Raph, then that's the best reason of all to keep going. I'm enjoying this journey. The fact that you are too, is a real bonus, and i hope you derive the same pleasure that i get from taking on a challenge, and being successful in it. I could wax lyrical about big challenges i've had in my own dubious existence, but i always found it really conscending and rather irritating when others starting sympathising with their own litany of medical challenges. So suffice to say, i'm pleased, my friend, that you're getting a smile out of this. I know i am, so we have that in common.

Now i'm off to prise a programme out that i enthusiastically installed from source, and the bastard doesn't want to play. I'm going to extract it piece by piece and roast it over a petroleum enhanced Win upgrade. That's enough to cheer anyone up, yes?

Hehe, Tally ho!

Alex.

:)

Alex Stone
12-29-2007, 01:41 PM
Ok, another step forward, and i thought i 'd include a quick pic of the programme i'm so enthusiastic about, and fits with Reaper so easily.
http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/16020/Screenshot.png

You can see the menu for installing an instrument is easy to follow, and rather clean in it's layout. also worth noting that you can pick different audio/midi devices for audio and erm, midi.

And, interesting to note, if you have a 'multigig' file, with several instruments in it, you simply click on the drop down menu and they're all listed.

There is a gigeditor as well.

Alex.

Shan
12-29-2007, 03:06 PM
More pics of your journey Alex. Too much text to read. :D

Gonna get Ubuntu Studio rollin' again.... :D

Shane

Alex Stone
12-30-2007, 09:15 AM
As i outlined in a previous thread, linuxsampler has the great ability for the user to create and destroy multiple devices at will. It's been entirely useful, and i've created 3 ensembles so far, of differing sizes, with different device requirements. (Audio and Midi.)
For example, my new quick draft template is 16 channels, covering a basic small orchestra layout. (Beethoven worked with ensembles this size, so it's 'proper', lol.)

That template only required one audio device of 32 audio outs (16 stereo channels), and one midi device, being 1 port. (each port has 16 midi channels.) Ok so far, and these samples will stream reliably from one disk.

A larger template calls for 2 audio devices and 4 midi ports.

And as i have my sample files on two extra (non system) disks, i've 'spread' the files over the two disks. Why? So the sampler isn't trying to call a large amount of samples from just one disk, and run the risk of buffer underruns, resulting in popping and clicking. According to your own requirements, you would tweak and shift files to 'balance' the use you have.

My example is on disk 1, i have 1st Violins and Violas, and on disk 2, i have 2nd violins and cellos, as these represent the 'hardest working' sections in my orchestral setup. The load is balanced not only across disks, and this is the good part, across devices as well.
The two audio devices are assigned in the sampler according to the above criteria. My 1st violins access device 1 (which is actually called device 0 in linux parlance.) and the 2nd Violins access device 2.

These show in Jack's most popular interface, Qjackctl, as 2 seperate devices, and importantly for Reaper enthusiasts, can be visually 'cabled' into Reaper tracks. So there is a smooth line between the audio port in LS, to a visual representation into Qjackctl, then out to Reaper, assigned by specific track.
I have discovered this setup is really........cool.
:)

In Qjackctl, you can save these cabling arrangements, so when you start everything up, the hard work is already done. Just open the correct cabling template, and off you go.

I'm doing some work at the moment with the java version of a linuxsampler interface called fantasia, and i'll get back here when i've figured everything out to a useable degree. It's been a busy couple of days, in conference with the devs of LS. I have to thank them for the time they spent helping me to not only sort things out, but give me some great understanding of how things work. I'm a little wiser, if a little tireder this afternoon, lol. Thanks to Christian, Benno, and Grigor for the input. As i learn more i will pass it on, and those who may wish to try LS (it is worth it, i can assure you.) and its interfaces, will avoid some of the clumsier user mistakes i made. (Doh.)
Here's the URL for the LS project, and you will see they're not standing still by any means.
http://www.linuxsampler.org/index.php

It's been my experience so far, that LS is extremely complimentary in its interaction with Reaper, and with a little thought, and patience, the two can work together in a stable reliable fashion as an even more valuable toolset for the musician/composer/writer.


Some more news on Jackdmp.

This multiprocessor version of Jackd server is not so new, having been around for a year or more, contrary to my original perception of its age. Personally, i've found it behaves in a more stable fashion than Jackd, and after getting around some install challenges of my own making, has proved to be more efficient at handling audio stream, with less xruns to deal with.
There's only been one linux programme that doesn't work with this version of the jack server, and the rest have opened and worked as usual. Best of all for the potential linux reaperite, (does that make us Linaperites? Or Geekereaperites?) it works well with Reaper.
The only challenge i had, and i think this is to do with Wine as the interface between linux and reaper, is the reaper icon in the connection window of Qjackctl disappearing. I solved this by simply enabling record on any track in Reaper, and the icon appeared and stayed. I will contact the relavent people, and see if this is a bug, or simply a reset or non active closure on the part of wine, when reaper is inactive, or not requesting a stream. More to follow on this as i find out.......

I'll post some pics shortly of Fantasia, and you can determine for yourself how user friendly it looks for you.

I continue with the intent of making the tools i have to hand perform at their most efficient. We tend to buy pc's, etc.. not realising that much of what we work with is 'safe', and generically modest in demands from the hardware. In linux, i've discovered that much can be done in finetuning the system , without hammering anything. Quite the contrary. As components are tweaked and finetuned within reasonable stable parameters, the box is running smoothly, and reliably. Perhaps PC's don't like bloat either!
:)

This might seem like a lot of work, but when you consider, in a generic Win setup, your computer is probably operating at 30% of its potential for audio/midi work, there's a lot of room for improvement. Sadly for many enthusiastic computer muso's, it takes a good programmer to take Win apart to a fine degree and increase that potential to streamline the os, and make the box more efficient. Linux is definitely easier to tune in that respect, and with a little elbow grease, and patience, offers (imho) greater rewards for those who want a more efficient setup, maximising further the resource they have.

The journey continues.....

Alex.

Alex Stone
12-30-2007, 01:03 PM
Ok, here's the first shot of Fantasia.
I've simply opened this, and added 2 midi and 1 audio device ready for a small ensemble build. A easy to understand layout. Each channel strip has a drop down option that shows midi port/channel and audio options, that you can modify.

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/16110/Fantasia.png

This version has a database function not dissimilar to kontakt. But in addition, you can set up templates, as you can see on the upper left. I've started as always with a quickdraft template, followed by strings, and then WW ensembles. This section is appropriately called..........Orchestras. (Classy title. Civilised. elegant, etc...)

I'm having quite a bit of fun with this one, but it is a serious tool of work too. So if you get into this particular sampler, then you can run it as normal, or as java. (Which is normal too.)

And a quick update, after finetuning the system further, linuxsampler is tweaked for 290 voices. More than enough to frighten the neighbours.

Aaah, a man who enjoys his craft....

Alex.

:)

Alex Stone
12-30-2007, 01:15 PM
Here's the next shot of the Channel strip in Fantasia, showing the midi and audio options.

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/16112/Fantasia1.png

Worth noting that the number of voices used for each loaded instrument channel (--/--) are seperately listed per strip, but you get a global voice count at the top as well. Good idea for keeping an eye on how much room you have to add something else. (like grunge bassoons for instance....)


And here's the Linuxsampler/Reaper setup in Jack. Couldn't be simpler. This is a medium size draft orchestra (80 channels) template loaded in LS, ported to 42 tracks in Reaper.

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/16114/jack1.png

Infuriatingly, but with some amusement, i got an xrun, just before i took this. Ahh well, lol.



Alex.

:)

p.s. I have 5 workspaces set up as Admin, Jack, Sampler, Reaper, and Plugins (Yes, you can rename them). It's Ctl+alt+ left or right arrow to get through them very quickly indeed. I'm still trying to map them to keys so i can go even faster. The only regret i have so far, is not being able to put the Reaper mixer on a separate workspace from the edit/arrange window, or i'd have 6.
But i won't give up just yet.......

404NotFound
12-30-2007, 02:03 PM
The only regret i have so far, is not being able to put the Reaper mixer on a separate workspace from the edit/arrange window

In Reaper:

Preferences -> General -> Advanced UI/system tweaks -> check "Use large window frames"

Now you can have the mixer as a separate window controlled by your window manager, so you can use right click on title bar -> move to workspace (or however it's called).

Alex Stone
12-30-2007, 02:28 PM
Hhmm, still not working. Takes the edit arrange with it.
I'll have a thinka bout this and try a few things.

Thanks for the heads up, 404.

Alex.

Shan
12-31-2007, 03:09 AM
Alex...you're an internet celebrity now. :D

http://winehq.org/?issue=336#Linux%20Journal:%20Selling%20WINE%20Com patibility


Shane

StudioDave
12-31-2007, 03:31 AM
@404: I just wanted to tell you that without doubt your reaping penguin is one of the coolest avatars I've ever seen. :)

StudioDave
12-31-2007, 03:33 AM
The only regret i have so far, is not being able to put the Reaper mixer on a separate workspace from the edit/arrange window, or i'd have 6.
But i won't give up just yet.......

Alex, have you tried simply dragging it over into another workspace ?

Jonas_Eriksson_Swe
12-31-2007, 05:21 AM
Thanks for the tip about Linuxsampler, I've got it up and running (on Windows) and for the first time since I stopped using pirated software I can use my .gig-samples!

Regards,
- Jonas

Alex Stone
12-31-2007, 06:11 AM
Alex...you're an internet celebrity now. :D

http://winehq.org/?issue=336#Linux%20Journal:%20Selling%20WINE%20Com patibility


Shane

Hehe, fame. Here today, and gone tomorrow, lol.

Dave's been spreading the message!



All the very best to you for the new year to come, Shan!


Alex.

Alex Stone
12-31-2007, 06:16 AM
Thanks for the tip about Linuxsampler, I've got it up and running (on Windows) and for the first time since I stopped using pirated software I can use my .gig-samples!

Regards,
- Jonas

Jonas, you're most welcome! The devs over at LS have been very helpful indeed getting my own install running smoothly, with some useful tips, and solutions. I hope to pass on as many of those tips, as i understand... :) I respectfully suggest you join the linuxsampler-dev mailing list. There's some good info in there. In addition, if you have any suggestions, the fellas have suggested using the bug notification list to post them.

And as an update, there have some further bugfixes and improvements in the last couple of days, so up dates are regular.

But we should be used to that with the development pace of the mighty Reaper, yes?

Jonas, if you can post back here with your experiences, it could help others who are thinking of trying Linuxsampler.
A pic or two would be good too!


The very best of the New Year to you!


Alex.

Alex Stone
12-31-2007, 06:19 AM
Alex, have you tried simply dragging it over into another workspace ?

Thanks for the tip Dave, but that one doesn't work either.

I'm definitely missing something here.....but i will sort it out, one way or the other. I have 6 workspaces now, each one the mirror of the others. Is there some sort of setting that enables me to join two 'together', as one workspace, accessed with Ctl+Alt+arrow? Because it seems that the mixer can only 'live inside' the reaper boundaries, in linux/wine. I don't have any desktop effects running, as they'd only chew resource.

Still....
Never give up, Never surrender!

My thanks to you for all your encouragement, and formidable help over these last few weeks. The journey would have been decidely more problematic without it.

All the very best to you for the New Year!

Alex.

Alex Stone
12-31-2007, 07:56 AM
Alex, have you tried simply dragging it over into another workspace ?

Dave and 404, you were right in the right environment. I've experimented with starting a session in different environments, and enlightenment, e-kde, etc...are all successful at allowing me to drag the reaper mixer into another workspace. But the xclient started session which is default (UBS gnome), doesn't, at least, i haven't figured it out yet.

1 step forward, and a half triple axle sidewise!

Alex.

Alex Stone
12-31-2007, 08:04 AM
I'm still working with Jackdmp and exploring all the options available in this server.
And i've tried unsuccessfully to contact the Jack team, although it is the festive season to be fair.
If anyone does happen to be in contact with them, could they pass on a couple of questions for me?

1) Is there an update on Jack Midi? I seem to find that most programmes will only show midi ports in the ALSA tab in Qjackctl, and there's no Jack midi showing in Winecfg. Any news on this?

2) If Jackmidi is indeed up and running, how can I configure programmes running in wine (through winecfg i guess), and pure linux to use it? (Talking about Reaper here.)
Or do programmes need to be specifically compiled to see and use Jackmidi in the first place?

I've googled this to little result so far.

Alex.

StudioDave
12-31-2007, 08:32 AM
I'm still working with Jackdmp and exploring all the options available in this server.
And i've tried unsuccessfully to contact the Jack team, although it is the festive season to be fair.

Probably the fastest way to reach the JACK crew is to log on to the #ardour channel at Freenode (an IRC node). Paul Davis and most of the other JACK devels hang out there daily, it's definitely the quickest way to get fixes for immediate problems. IRC channels are popular with developers.

And yes indeed, it's the festive season so there may not be so much activity now.

Alex Stone
12-31-2007, 05:20 PM
Probably the fastest way to reach the JACK crew is to log on to the #ardour channel at Freenode (an IRC node). Paul Davis and most of the other JACK devels hang out there daily, it's definitely the quickest way to get fixes for immediate problems. IRC channels are popular with developers.

And yes indeed, it's the festive season so there may not be so much activity now.

Thanks for the heads up, Dave.
I'll go there when everyone's sobered up!

Alex.

Alex Stone
12-31-2007, 06:05 PM
Just got home from a very pleasant New Year's celebration with friends, and felt compelled to ask a question that's been on my mind for a little while now, for those that may know.

Which part of the Wine audio/midi infrastructure supports, or would support, if built, Jack midi?

Is it wine itself, or wineasio?

And a follow on to this, and a question i think i posed previously,but couldn't find an answer to.

If midi shows up in the Jack midi tab in Qjackctl, can it be routed into the Alsa midi tab, or are the two midi infrastructures separate, never to meet? If it's possible, can i make some sort of link between the two?

Alex.

StudioDave
12-31-2007, 06:29 PM
Which part of the Wine audio/midi infrastructure supports, or would support, if built, Jack midi?

Is it wine itself, or wineasio?


Since it's JACK, it's likely to be wineasio.

If midi shows up in the Jack midi tab in Qjackctl, can it be routed into the Alsa midi tab, or are the two midi infrastructures separate, never to meet? If it's possible, can i make some sort of link between the two?

I just did it, with a module called aseq2jackmidi. :)

I'll get the source to you asap, but Ivy's getting impatient. Our night's just getting underway. :)

Shan
01-01-2008, 12:39 AM
Alex,

Alot of us Reaperites use...AutoHotKey. Have you tried AHK with Reaper in Linux? Or, would the Linux Key bindings take over that department?

Shane

Alex Stone
01-01-2008, 05:40 AM
Alex,

Alot of us Reaperites use...AutoHotKey. Have you tried AHK with Reaper in Linux? Or, would the Linux Key bindings take over that department?

Shane

A great question Shane, and one that's near the top of the todo list. I have a couple more things to sort out, then i'll be getting to this, as i am, as you know, an advocate of Key Commands. (Key bindings in linux)
As soon as i have Jack communicating with everything (see above for the progress)seamlessly, i'll start the KC challenge.

Alex.

Alex Stone
01-01-2008, 05:46 AM
Hehe, it's not often that i go near a Drum Editor, particularly pattern based editors. Writing classical music doesn't call for this very often, lol. However i had a quick session with Hydrogen this morning, and was quite impressed with the robust and stable nature of the programme. Many of you would be far better qualified to judge this than i, so i'll simply include 2 screenshots, and you can decide if this is a decent layout, that could be viable as another option in the Linux/Reaper armoury.

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/16286/Hydrogen1.png

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/16287/Hydrogen-2.png


http://www.hydrogen-music.org


Alex.

StudioDave
01-01-2008, 06:53 AM
... i had a quick session with Hydrogen this morning, and was quite impressed with the robust and stable nature of the programme.

Yes, Hydrogen is very nice. :)

Be sure to check out the demos and the various drum kits that are available from the H site. IIRC, most kits include demos, some of which are kinda cool.

StudioDave
01-01-2008, 07:01 AM
The other version with the jackbridge (actually only for testing)
you can find here:
http://people.jacklab.net/drumfix/wineasio-x.2.tgz
Here the number of input/outputs must be set in the common.h header file before compiling and no autoconnects will be performed. As always read the readme.txt.

Note that wineasio-x will get obsolete as soon as the jack devs get their 64/32bit related bugs sorted.

My build fails here:

winegcc -m32 -Bwinebuild -Wb,--as-cmd="as --32",--ld-cmd="ld -melf_i386" -shared ./wineasio.dll.spec \
asio.o main.o regsvr.o -o wineasio.dll.so \
-lwinmm -luser32 -ladvapi32 -lkernel32 -lntdll -ldxguid -luuid -ljack -lpthread -lrt -lole32
/usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/libjack.so when searching for -ljack
/usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/libjack.a when searching for -ljack
/usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/libjack.so when searching for -ljack
/usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/libjack.a when searching for -ljack
/usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/bin/../lib/libjack.so when searching for -ljack
/usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/bin/../lib/libjack.a when searching for -ljack
/usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/libjack.so when searching for -ljack
/usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/libjack.a when searching for -ljack
/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -ljack
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
winegcc: gcc failed.
make: *** [wineasio.dll.so] Error 2

The Wine package is a backport of 0.9.34, a 32-bit build for AMD64. Do I also need a 32-bit build of JACK ?

Building on 64 Studio 2.0.

Alex Stone
01-01-2008, 09:47 AM
Dave, i've just tried several times to find this online somewhere, and couldn't come up with anything. It doesn't seem to be listed in alsa modules anywhere either.
I found a dev mailing list conversation between devs (including Paul Davis) that was full of 'banter' about the pros and cons of including jackmidi, excluding alsa and relegating it to a single role of handling hardware devices, etc... Gave an interesting insight into the varying viewpoints, and number of different directions possible when building linux software. So all was not lost, and i learned something, lol. (Man those guys are like musicians in their passionate presentation of ideas! :) )

Having thought it through a little with my sparse knowlege, i think Dmitri is onto something with his idea of removing Alsa a little more from the process, and strengthening the central role of Jack, with a greater role as the link between programmes, and removing the, what seems like, dual nature of Alsa in performing some of the audio/midi roles. However, i'm aware of the 'democratic nature' of linux, and the various devs right to choose the audio/midi infrastructure they wish to include. Fascinating stuff.

The fact is, we're reliant quite heavily on Alsa at this stage, so it has to stay in one form or another. I just wonder if the next step in maturing audio/midi is there and waiting for those willing to jump.

Anyway, any clues as to where i can find this module?

Alex.

Alex Stone
01-01-2008, 10:08 AM
Shane, i went looking for info about AHK. It seems from this link, that AHK in wine works well. I haven't tried it yet, this is just the first step.

http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=8043&iTestingId=12172&sAllBugs

Alex

StudioDave
01-01-2008, 10:30 AM
Dave, i've just tried several times to find this online somewhere, and couldn't come up with anything.


Look here:

http://linux-sound.org/misc/alsaseq2jackmidi.c

Download it, compile it with this command line:

gcc -Wall -o alsaseq2jackmidi alsaseq2jackmidi.c -ljack -lasound

Let me know if you have any trouble with the build. The code builds an executable called alsaseq2jackmidi (!). You run it, an entry appears in the MIDI tab in QJackCtl, and there's your bridge between JACK MIDI and the ALSA sequencer. I plan to test it with Lars Luthman's port of the AZR3 organ VST later today.

The big deal with JACK MIDI is exactly as you surmised, i.e. no more need for ALSA MIDI. Plus, events are timestamped, which means tighter sync with JACK audio streams.

The fact is, we're reliant quite heavily on Alsa at this stage, so it has to stay in one form or another. I just wonder if the next step in maturing audio/midi is there and waiting for those willing to jump.

Well, JACK currently supports CoreAudio, OSS, ALSA, Freebob (Firewire), and PortAudio, so ALSA isn't strictly necessary *for JACK*. Remove the ALSA MIDI dependency and you have a more viable solution for cross-platform development.

Caveat lector: I'm just getting into the JACK MIDI thing myself, so I may not have my facts straight, but so far that's how I see it taking shape.

Alex Stone
01-01-2008, 10:48 AM
Look here:

http://linux-sound.org/misc/alsaseq2jackmidi.c

Download it, compile it with this command line:

gcc -Wall -o alsaseq2jackmidi alsaseq2jackmidi.c -ljack -lasound

Let me know if you have any trouble with the build. The code builds an executable called alsaseq2jackmidi (!). You run it, an entry appears in the MIDI tab in QJackCtl, and there's your bridge between JACK MIDI and the ALSA sequencer. I plan to test it with Lars Luthman's port of the AZR3 organ VST later today.

The big deal with JACK MIDI is exactly as you surmised, i.e. no more need for ALSA MIDI. Plus, events are timestamped, which means tighter sync with JACK audio streams.



Well, JACK currently supports CoreAudio, OSS, ALSA, Freebob (Firewire), and PortAudio, so ALSA isn't strictly necessary *for JACK*. Remove the ALSA MIDI dependency and you have a more viable solution for cross-platform development.

Caveat lector: I'm just getting into the JACK MIDI thing myself, so I may not have my facts straight, but so far that's how I see it taking shape.


Dave, thanks, it worked first time! (I'm a redhot newbie compiler now, full of hope, and the constant assurance that sooner or later, with persistence, and at least 100 failed compilations, i'll get lucky, lol.)


The midi link appears in both alsamidi and jackmidi tabs in qjackctl. I think i understand i'll need to run the executable each time i need it, yes? No autostart when jack cranks into life.


And of course the qualifier for this. It only goes one way, from JackMidi to AlsaMidi.

This is outstanding. Another step forward.
Exciting stuff!

Alex.

StudioDave
01-01-2008, 12:46 PM
The midi link appears in both alsamidi and jackmidi tabs in qjackctl. I think i understand i'll need to run the executable each time i need it, yes? No autostart when jack cranks into life.

If you're using QJackCtl, open the Setup dialog, click the Options tab, and look at the Scripting selections. Click in the entry box beside "Execute after Startup" and enter the path to the bridge executable, e.g. :

/home/alex/src/aseq2jmidi/alsaseq2jackmidi &

(You can also simply browse for it.)

Don't forget to add the "&" else everything will hang !

Then in "Execute On Shutdown" enter this command:

killall /home/alex/src/aseq2jmidi/alsaseq2jackmidi

(No ampersand required.)

Now the bridge will run when you click QJC's Start button, and it will unload when you click Stop.

And of course the qualifier for this. It only goes one way, from JackMidi to AlsaMidi.

Think of things as progressing from the ALSA connections to the JACK MIDI connections to the Audio connections. Your JACK MIDI clients will appear in that empty right panel.

I built and tested Lars Luthman's port of the AZR3 VST plugin. I wired my sequencer from a virtual MIDI port (in the ALSA panel) to the aseq2jmidi port (also in the ALSA panel). In the MIDI panel I hooked up the aseq2jmidi port to the AZR3 port, then I routed the audio output in the Audio panel.

Sounds like work, but the whole arrangement can be saved as a QJackCtl patchbay configuration file. The entire process can be automated, including starting the bridge.

Alex Stone
01-01-2008, 01:30 PM
If you're using QJackCtl, open the Setup dialog, click the Options tab, and look at the Scripting selections. Click in the entry box beside "Execute after Startup" and enter the path to the bridge executable, e.g. :

/home/alex/src/aseq2jmidi/alsaseq2jackmidi &

(You can also simply browse for it.)

Don't forget to add the "&" else everything will hang !



Think of things as progressing from the ALSA connections to the JACK MIDI connections to the Audio connections. Your JACK MIDI clients will appear in that empty right panel.

I built and tested Lars Luthman's port of the AZR3 VST plugin. I wired my sequencer from a virtual MIDI port (in the ALSA panel) to the aseq2jmidi port (also in the ALSA panel). In the MIDI panel I hooked up the aseq2jmidi port to the AZR3 port, then I routed the audio output in the Audio panel.

Sounds like work, but the whole arrangement can be saved as a QJackCtl patchbay configuration file. The entire process can be automated, including starting the bridge.

Thanks Dave, that works a treat.
I tried it without the & sign, and you're right, it hung. Useful information to have. (I gather the & sign is a form of 'pause until this is finished, before moving on'...)

Having 'lived' in Linux for a few weeks now, i'm not sure cabling every together is so much work. In Windows (in a former, less enjoyable life, lol) i was frequently having to rejoin stuff, becuase Win had 'changed' something.

So as a comparison, i think linux wins this one, as it is 1) modular and user definable to a much greater degree, and 2) like any template in any programme, once you get the patchbay sorted out, it stays put, and because of the layout of qjackctl, you get to see everything in front of you as you go. (Patchage is good for this too.) Lets not forget I'm dealing with large numbers on a regular basis, so if the orchestra doesn't 'see' the Daw, that's a chunk of time manually connecting a pile of ports together.

And since i've gone back to an external sampler, favoured over internal VST's, i've noticed a big performance boost. Reaper handled my VST's well in wine, but even then, it's quicker and redraws better when it's only dealing with the external sampler, and not trying to process all those vst's with instruments as well. I'd rather save that resource for the effects plugins.

I'll admit to some degree of nostalgia at this point, as using the old but warm gig files i have has been an enjoyable reminder of how much simpler writing was in an earlier time. I will admit part of my enthusiasm for LS, is the delight i get playing and using these files again.
As a somewhat ironic analogy, using the old gig files, in the 'old' way, is akin to getting out the 4 track, and pressing record. I used them so often in the early days that it became instinctive, and i knew the sound of them (and still do i'm delighted to say) so well, i could blend them to create a much closer to 'live' effect , than the more modern offerings.
Even with the wonders of development, like the superb VSL library, and it's players, and additional complimentary software, i wonder if we missed something along the way, that simple pleasure and enthusiasm for working with familiar tools, and knowing them so well,that made us feel like masters of our craft, even with the manual effort involved.
It's been.....good, to get back to basics again, and enjoy the simple process of creation, not the endless hours spent trying to figure out a NASA type GUI, that has one scratching one's head, and trying to absorb another raft of terms or actions. I've often complimented the Reaper team on the elegant simplicity of the interface, and i think LS has this right too.(Among other programmes i've discovered in linux.) We're not all astronauts, lol.

Further...
As the streamlined system gets closer and closer to a complete solution, i've been reviewing my own workflow, and what i could change to improve the process further. Having already noted a list of Key Commands i can modify slightly to 'match' them with Reaper (and vice versa), i'm also going to research linux key bindings further, and see just how clever they can be at simplifying, and automating much of the process.

I've also had a try of Lash, as a session handler, but the results were somewhat mixed, and i wasn't happy with it. I'm still looking for something like this that saves everything, including which instruments are loaded in the sampler, and which order programmes are started in. (Including the pauses while other things happen) I think a detailed, programmable, session handler would be the....'ultimate' template, requiring 'start session A' (e.g.) to get everything going, get the coffee while it's running the session commencement, and then sit down and write.
Half a dozen of these templates would constitute 90% (imho) of the processing side of setting up, so even more time saved if i can make this happen. (Never give up, never surrender.....)


Which is my ultimate goal for all of this, and if applicable, a starting point for others who would like such a configuration, for their own needs.

Alex.

This most enjoyable journey continues........

StudioDave
01-01-2008, 02:24 PM
Hi Alex,

A couple quick replies, I'm on the clock today:

...I gather the & sign is a form of 'pause until this is finished, before moving on'...

It's more like "I'm running now, you can move on to your next task." Otherwise everything just hangs at "I'm running now ..."

I've also had a try of Lash, as a session handler, but the results were somewhat mixed, and i wasn't happy with it.

I think it needs more development attention. As far as it works, it works well with the existing clients. But it needs more clients.

... I'm still looking for something like this that saves everything, including which instruments are loaded in the sampler, and which order programmes are started in. (Including the pauses while other things happen) I think a detailed, programmable, session handler would be the....'ultimate' template, requiring 'start session A' (e.g.) to get everything going, get the coffee while it's running the session commencement, and then sit down and write.
Half a dozen of these templates would constitute 90% (imho) of the processing side of setting up, so even more time saved if i can make this happen.

LASH is supposed to answer this need, but as I said, I don't think it's sufficiently developed. I may be wrong, I haven't looked at it for a while.

However, you may well be able to do what you want by learning how to write shell scripts. Your success will depend in part on whether your programs take startup arguments.

Here's one of my simple scripts :

xdosemu -input \r big.bat &
qjackctl &
sleep 7
jack-rack /home/dlphilp/racks/favoriteplate.rack &
qsynth &
jost &

The "big.bat" is a batch file that loads a required MIDI driver and starts Sequencer Plus Gold. QJC is configured to start JACK on opening. This might take a few seconds, so I use the sleep command to hold things up while JACK loads. Then JACK Rack starts with a favorite reverb, followed by QSynth (again, preconfigured with soundfont and start-on-open) and then an unconfigured JOST environment.

I named the script mysequencer, made it an executable (chmod a+x mysequencer), and added it as an item in my Fluxbox popup menu. Now I pop open the menu, click on the name, and everything sets up nicely. I can further define each step with added command options, but I've kept things simple in this one. It's my main MIDI composition template, it is indeed very handy, and it's at least one thing I can do in lieu of a full-featured session manager.

Btw, I could also add more control to the script. The bash shell is a powerful programming environment in itself, it's well worth your time to investigate. I know only a few of its capabilities, but they are most helpful to me.

Alex Stone
01-01-2008, 03:47 PM
Hi Alex,

A couple quick replies, I'm on the clock today:



It's more like "I'm running now, you can move on to your next task." Otherwise everything just hangs at "I'm running now ..."



I think it needs more development attention. As far as it works, it works well with the existing clients. But it needs more clients.



LASH is supposed to answer this need, but as I said, I don't think it's sufficiently developed. I may be wrong, I haven't looked at it for a while.

However, you may well be able to do what you want by learning how to write shell scripts. Your success will depend in part on whether your programs take startup arguments.

Here's one of my simple scripts :

xdosemu -input \r big.bat &
qjackctl &
sleep 7
jack-rack /home/dlphilp/racks/favoriteplate.rack &
qsynth &
jost &

The "big.bat" is a batch file that loads a required MIDI driver and starts Sequencer Plus Gold. QJC is configured to start JACK on opening. This might take a few seconds, so I use the sleep command to hold things up while JACK loads. Then JACK Rack starts with a favorite reverb, followed by QSynth (again, preconfigured with soundfont and start-on-open) and then an unconfigured JOST environment.

I named the script mysequencer, made it an executable (chmod a+x mysequencer), and added it as an item in my Fluxbox popup menu. Now I pop open the menu, click on the name, and everything sets up nicely. I can further define each step with added command options, but I've kept things simple in this one. It's my main MIDI composition template, it is indeed very handy, and it's at least one thing I can do in lieu of a full-featured session manager.

Btw, I could also add more control to the script. The bash shell is a powerful programming environment in itself, it's well worth your time to investigate. I know only a few of its capabilities, but they are most helpful to me.

Hehe, great info Dave.

I just tried a quick script, and it worked. I gather from what you've written, that you set Jack to start automatically in the options in qjackctl.
I have qjackctl opening, then qsampler (i can configure that to use an orchestral template when it starts, instead of untitled), then....

I've just got to figure out where i put Reaper!

I'll go look at some Bash info.

Thanks for the help!

Alex...

Off to Bash Google...erm...

ArdeII
01-02-2008, 06:29 AM
So Alex ,have you actually done any music I mean real session with
many tracks, recorded audio,midi,VST instruments, VST FX) using
Linux and Reaper or have you just tweaked everything?

If you have how all is working? Do you have any problems, what?
Do you recommend using Reaper in Linux?

I want to know this because the only thing which keeps me using Linux is that I cant really do music with it.

I know that there are Ardour etc. but I dont really like them. I like Reaper and VSTs and would really like them to work in Linux.

Maybe if you recommend this configuration I might try it too to make music ;)

ArdeII
01-02-2008, 04:06 PM
Ok, I did get Reaper to work quite well in Linux with winasio...

...but my UI is very slow and eats up lots of CPU power. The first screen shot shows CPU usage when only moving the System Monitor dialog. Its 100% ;(

Do you guys have any glue what might be the problem with the slow GUI.

The second image has my system info.

ps. I use now rt kernel but I dont notice any difference with the low latency kernel which I used before.

vocalnick
01-02-2008, 11:51 PM
What a mammoth thread!

I've just resurrected my aging PC with a bit of maintenance and upgrading (I have a new friend, and his name is thermal transfer paste ;) ) and I'm going to have a look at trying some flavour of Linux for musical/audio work. I've flirted with PCLinux2007 and Mint 3.0 (basically Ubuntu with a few bells & whistles) as general purpose distros in the past, and I'm reasonably comfortable with the very very basic basics. I managed to get Reaper 1.xx running with a low latency kernel and WineASIO in Mint a few months ago, and it performed acceptably well using the built in hardware on my old laptop. Hurrah!

It was fairly promising stuff, but I suspect I'm about to hit the learning wall now!

Not wanting to dilute the thread too much, but does anyone have any experience getting EMU hardware (or troublesome hardware in general) to function? I have an EMU 1616, for which I understand support has just arrived with the latest ALSA release. However a lot of googling has led me to believe it's not going to be as easy as I'd like. Something about firmware loading... er...

:)

I may be dual-booting for a while yet :p

Wombat
01-03-2008, 04:46 AM
Alex or StudioDave, I'm going out to buy a bigger hard drive tomorrow so I can try setting up 64Studio, (32 bit version), dual booted with XP. Once I've got Reaper going, do you happen to know if I'll be able to use EWQLSO? It's my most frequently used orchestral sampler and it's essential for my work, but my experience with getting help from Native Instruments has been miserable. Have either of you tried their VSTis at all in Linux/Reaper? Since I'll have it installed on the XP partition, will I have to buy another copy to use with Linux under Wine?

StudioDave
01-03-2008, 07:44 AM
... my experience with getting help from Native Instruments has been miserable. Have either of you tried their VSTis at all in Linux/Reaper? Since I'll have it installed on the XP partition, will I have to buy another copy to use with Linux under Wine?

Linux will recognize other systems, so if you can mount the XP partition under Linux you should be able to access its programs and data. Wine will need to know the specific paths to stuff you want to run, but I don't think you'll need to buy your plugins again.

Btw, to all interested readers: Wombat brings up an important point, which is simply that you will get NO support from the manufacturers if you're running their stuff in Wine. The Reaper team is exceptional in this regard, but don't expect the rest of the industry to be following Justin's way (yet).

FWIW, I've run NI's FM7 under Reaper/Wine, it worked fine. I've run Kontakt under another Wine-based VST bridge (FST), it ran fine too.

Drumfix
01-03-2008, 08:35 AM
@Dave: remove the -ljack from the dll build. It is only
necessary for the jackbridge.

StudioDave
01-03-2008, 10:02 AM
@Dave: remove the -ljack from the dll build. It is only
necessary for the jackbridge.

So jackbridge is not necessary ?

I pulled out -ljack then got errors regarding -lpthread, so I added -L/usr/lib32 and got further ahead. Alas, now the build fails with a reference to "missing -lgcc". I can't find that in the Makefile, so I'm stuck again. Any further suggestions ?

Drumfix
01-03-2008, 10:32 AM
@Dave:
jackbridge is necessary, but you need -ljack only for linking the 64bit jackbridge, not for linking the 32bit wineasio.dll.
For wineasio.dll you require 32bit versions of libgcc, libpthread, librt and libc.

StudioDave
01-03-2008, 11:21 AM
@Dave:
jackbridge is necessary, but you need -ljack only for linking the 64bit jackbridge, not for linking the 32bit wineasio.dll.
For wineasio.dll you require 32bit versions of libgcc, libpthread, librt and libc.

Okay, I understand now. I added -L/usr/lib32 to the Makefile, linked libgcc.so and libgcc_s.so to the existing libgcc_s.so.1, and was then able to build and install both wineasio.dll.so and the jackbridge. Alas, the registration step fails (regsv32 wineasio.dll) with a Wine error. The package is an older Wine (0.9.34), it's the only 32-bit version I found that could run under 64 Studio. Recent versions of Wine fail to build, always with the same complaint about a push/pop error, so I use the 0.9.34 package I found at debian-multimedia.org.

As this stuff is 'way off-topic here, perhaps we can communicate further via IRC ?

Wombat
01-03-2008, 03:12 PM
Linux will recognize other systems, so if you can mount the XP partition under Linux you should be able to access its programs and data. Wine will need to know the specific paths to stuff you want to run, but I don't think you'll need to buy your plugins again.

Btw, to all interested readers: Wombat brings up an important point, which is simply that you will get NO support from the manufacturers if you're running their stuff in Wine. The Reaper team is exceptional in this regard, but don't expect the rest of the industry to be following Justin's way (yet).

FWIW, I've run NI's FM7 under Reaper/Wine, it worked fine. I've run Kontakt under another Wine-based VST bridge (FST), it ran fine too.

Thanks, Dave. That's very encouraging. I don't think think I'll be doing anything quite as heroic as Alex, but I'm looking forward to the adventure.

Alex Stone
01-03-2008, 05:24 PM
A quick heads up...

http://www.linuxsampler.org/osx.html


:)

Alex Stone
01-04-2008, 04:03 AM
So Alex ,have you actually done any music I mean real session with
many tracks, recorded audio,midi,VST instruments, VST FX) using
Linux and Reaper or have you just tweaked everything?

If you have how all is working? Do you have any problems, what?
Do you recommend using Reaper in Linux?

I want to know this because the only thing which keeps me using Linux is that I cant really do music with it.

I know that there are Ardour etc. but I dont really like them. I like Reaper and VSTs and would really like them to work in Linux.

Maybe if you recommend this configuration I might try it too to make music ;)

The answer's probably half and half.
I've spent quite some time tweaking and fine tuning the system, and in addition trying it out as i go. I've been writing quite a bit of stuff in the last week, then going back and tweaking the system further.

As for VST's, well, i'm trying to get off them, to be frank. I have a decent library of gig files that were gathering a bit of dust, and various attempts to convert the file format to something a vst could use were problematic at best. I've been working with the JS and Cockos plugins more and more, and, just like our experiences with other commercial vsts, practise helps. If one is geared towards pretty pictures on plugs, then the JS and Cockos plugs are.....functional. I'm not interested in the face. Whatever the plug is, it has to work, reliably, and do what i want it to do. So i'm more than happy with the selection within Reaper already.
And as my experience with these plugs grows, i'm confident that i'll become even more adept with them, and benefit even further.

In addition, there are some fine plugs in Ladspa format that perform really well. You can't use these in Reaper, but it's easy enough to route the audio out of Reaper, into a ladspa host like Jost, for example, and take advantage of the ladspa set as well.

My intent in this journey is to setup a viable, reliable and professional working environment, with tools that will do the job day in/day out without problems. I want to be able to hit the go button on the box, run a setup script, (and thanks for the tip Dave, i have one running now that i'm tweaking, and tuning to taste), get the coffee, and write.
I wanted to get out of VSTs, and back to running the sample/audio 'engine' outside of the daw. In the past when Gigastudio actually worked, this was a good setup for me. Others will have different experiences.
I've written enthusiastically here about Linuxsampler. For me, it gives me a chance to work the way i want to, and not be 'guided' into a workflow i find time consuming in setup and continuation. I have quite a few orchestral vsts, but standing back objectively, which is why i started this journey in the first place, i found it was a lot faster,easier, and MORE PRODUCTIVE, to keep the engine outside the daw, and so reduce the number of tracks required to get things written.
Orchestral VSTs can be a big chunk of a programme's ram operating capacity, and i think, and have experienced, a loss of response when loading a lot of them at once. I suffer none of that with an external sampler, and given Reaper's excellent routing capabilities, it's only a matter of deciding where the audio stream goes to decide how you want to setup your particular rig.

We're fortunate at the moment, to see a lot of linux programmes and utilities all maturing at the same time. Imho, the time for considering Linux as not capable, or insufficient for professional audio use, is gone. There are still challenges with hardware companies providing decent drivers yes, and one needs to do some research to make wise choices in that regard, but as an operating system of work, my choice of distro, Ubuntustudio, has proved itself more than capable, and i'm sure others can give instances of other distros that work for them. I really dig the chance of fine tuning it to a much greater degree than i ever could with Win, or Mac.

Finally, most of my work is written at the moment. I have a steady stream of people asking me for some 'strings' there, or some 'woodwinds' here, and a couple of ad agencies who fire ideas to me to be orchestrated into something. The word is quietly out now, that the eccentric briton who likes living in russia, is an 'old fashioned' writer. That's a niche, within a niche, within a niche, lol.

The challenge is yet to come, as i compile (see, linux lingo already!) an album of light classical music of my own, for release. Then, all this work, and the tools i have to work with, will need to perform, and do it well. Hence the hard work now, getting it right.
I guess there's an obvious question here.
Why linux?

Easy answer. Because when we remove all the marketing, hype, bells and whistles: when we evaluate each step in our working process, (e.g. time consumed solving problems, when the client is standing next to you breathless with excitement waiting to hear what you've done): when we take each stage of the compositional process in fine detail, examining the efficiency of the 'flow', i've discovered that linux does it better, faster, and more reliably than win or mac did. Others will disagree. Hehe, like anything i do, i tend to get right into it, and examine everything in fine detail to see if it will suit me.
I knew there would be a steep learning curve with a change to linux, and there's more to come. But the results already have me convinced that the path i've taken is a wise one, that will benefit me in the long term to a greater degree than the other os's. Everyone to their own, and we will all have our own experiences, according to the way we want to work, and what we want to produce, so this is strictly my personal opinion, and experience so far.

Linux is nowhere near as daunting as it use to be. There's a more 'mainstream' feel to it now. At the same time, i have derived much pleasure from learning how to compile a programme, and throwing out ALL the ones that i don't want. A singularly satisfying experience for me, i can assure you. We can't expect to have a sleek, powerful, totally tuned Audio/Midi/Video production environment, if the os insists on keeping 'IE' , just in case. (Just one irritating example)

As you may have read, there have been challenges along the way. Routing midi and audio just for one. But these can be overcome, and are worth the effort, because the reward is the user assignable number of ports. With great help from Drumfix, Dave, Woot, 404, Jack, Raph, and others, i can now set the number of ports that i want. When you've fought with juggling too few resources, restricted by the OS, for orchestral work, for as long as i have, you appreciate the freedom this gives. No more swapping ports or audio streams. Now every player in the orchestra can have his very own audio and midi channel. As part of a workflow, that's huge for me. The time i've wasted juggling has been astronomical, and in the past, even with two or three boxes all contributing to global warming, the same restrictions have hampered, and SLOWED DOWN the working output. And i'm just like most of you guys. If an idea comes, i want to get it down quick. The fact that i tend to think in orchestral terms, doesn't remove from the fact that an idea is an idea, and needs to be recorded for posterity, or derision in the light of later objectivity.

So far, linux has exceeded my expectations. And the help i've received here and elsewhere is a big part of that satisfaction curve. Not everyone will dig it man, and that's cool, same as everyone doesn't dig Win, or Mac.

I have to say, finally, that i probably wouldn't have taken this journey if i'd been unable to use Reaper at the center. For what i do, and the way i do it, the Reap is simple, fast, and easy to use. I will admit to some trepidation when i installed Reaper in wine for the first time. what if it didn't work, or was slow or awkward in some way? That didn't happen, and the Reap flies as it did before. As someone who threw good cash away in the past on other 'commercial' programmes that NEVER (imho)performed to their stated capacity, Reaper exceeded my expectations with it's simple layout, powerful routing, and a lot of depth that i'm still yet to explore in greater detail.
At the moment, i feel like a winner. Everything works well, with other components, and i can access it all either automatically, or manually, as i choose. (Scripts are fun, try em.) In percentage terms, i've lost little with the few vsts that don't work. Ce la Vie. If the devs of those vsts or plugs don't want to play in the linux sandbox, i lose nothing, as the alternative has proved to be of much greater value, and productive enjoyment.
Using all this software and hardware doesn't have to be hard work, and frustration. We CAN get to enjoy ourselves as well! :)

More to come as new discoveries and lessons smack me squarely between the eyes in this most enjoyable journey....... :)


Alex.

Alex Stone
01-05-2008, 07:01 AM
Ok, for the next stage in the linux journey, i'm going to be taking on and researching soundcards. I'm not that interested in external usb or firwire devices, just pci.

I have a short list i've briefly researched so far, as follows:

ESI Maya 44
ESI Julia (i included this one for the 24bit, 192hz)
M-Audio 192
M-Audio 2496
RME (There seem to rather mixed reports about rme linux drivers, so i'm still no clearer as to the viability of rme as a linux based sound option.)

These all seem to have linux drivers, according to information i've read so far.

Cards in this range would be sufficient for current needs, as i'm not doing any external recording. (For at least the forseeable future.)

If you have one of these, or an equivalent, and are using it in linux, could you kindly share your experiences, including difficulty of setup, latency, etc.., and any other useful information.
Objective input gratefully received!

Thanks.

Alex.

p.s. I'll need to use it for orchestral work, with linuxsampler, in ubuntustudio.

plush2
01-05-2008, 09:33 AM
Hey Alex, as long as you stay away from their firewire products the RME cards are great under Linux. They won't release any details about how the firewire ones work so there are no drivers but they were very forthcoming about their pci/pcmcia products.

I've really been enjoying your linux adventure. Do you work to picture ever? If so then have you given it a shot under linux?

regards

Daryl

Alex Stone
01-05-2008, 10:33 AM
Hey Alex, as long as you stay away from their firewire products the RME cards are great under Linux. They won't release any details about how the firewire ones work so there are no drivers but they were very forthcoming about their pci/pcmcia products.

I've really been enjoying your linux adventure. Do you work to picture ever? If so then have you given it a shot under linux?

regards

Daryl

Hehe, not yet Daryl. (not given a shot in linux.) I've done a few bits to pic, in another daw life. (but i'm feeling better now, lol)
That's to come after some other bits first.

Thanks for the info about rme. I've had a browse around their site, and read a few posts in fora, so i have a small idea of what they're doing. (And all credit to them for at least being brave enough to take the linux driver plunge) I find it somewhat curious that HW manufacturers aren't treating linux as an opportunity for more sales. Perhaps they've had it too good for too long, who knows?
Or maybe linux needed to mature a bit further. Still, more sales, wider audience, etc... It's not as if the linux model is new, or the 'top six' distros aren't established. Is the target audience too small? Or do they lack the courage to ride what seems to be a rising wave? And it's not as if the code is so much different.
Seeing the speed and finesse of the Reap team in sorting out Win/Mac/Linuxfriendly is a good example of this.

(Either that, or J and the rest of the Reaper team aren't human at all, but a warehouse full of CRAY supercomputers, all hammering away, building a decent daw.)

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/16859/65272616_8e0253ad3f_o.png


Nope, still don't understand.
More sales for those with the vision and courage i guess....

:)

Alex

The journey continues.........

plush2
01-05-2008, 12:36 PM
Yes Alex, I think it's no coincidence that picture, payment and pain all start with the same letter. They all seem to go together unfortunately.

If you look at the main pro-sumer hardware manufacturers companies like RME and ESI are the exception with most others being tied in some way to a commercial DAW product on either MAC, PC or both. Add to that suspicions that opensource drivers will reveal trade secrets about the hardware and you start to see why some devices are completely stymied on linux.

Alex Stone
01-06-2008, 04:45 AM
Yes Alex, I think it's no coincidence that picture, payment and pain all start with the same letter. They all seem to go together unfortunately.

If you look at the main pro-sumer hardware manufacturers companies like RME and ESI are the exception with most others being tied in some way to a commercial DAW product on either MAC, PC or both. Add to that suspicions that opensource drivers will reveal trade secrets about the hardware and you start to see why some devices are completely stymied on linux.

I'd have to agree here, Daryl. I've had a morning on the google, investigating which soundcard companies offer linux as an added alternative. There are precious few, it seems. I think your point about locked software is a valid one too. Having the company 'secrets' open to the world might be a step too far for some.

But i just can't help but think what the benefits might be, in balance, for a company to take a bold step, and increase their customer base.

Creamware springs to mind as a company that would directly get something back from a more open stance, just as 1 example....

Ahh, well, back to the research...

Alex.

p.s. A quick update on the mighty Linuxsampler.
After further tweaks, i can now access just over 300 voices, and load, after revision, approx 150 channels with all manner of articulations, etc..

This sampler just keeps going. I'm, frankly, amazed.

Alex Stone
01-06-2008, 06:44 PM
While writing this evening, i rebooted the box, and seemed to lose wineasio. I've lost the client port for Reaper that usually shows up in the alsa midi tab of qjackctl. I've done the usual checks, and before i think about recompiling wineasio, is this an identifable challenge, or simply a sudden glitch?

The interesting part is, previous to this, using jackdmp, the asio client port was consistent in showing up in qjackctl using jackdmp, where it was a little problematic at times with the previous 'regular' Jackd.

Any clues would be appreciated, as i will admit, i'm a bit lost on this one. I haven't upgraded anything except Reaper.

Alex.

StudioDave
01-07-2008, 05:06 AM
While writing this evening, i rebooted the box, and seemed to lose wineasio. I've lost the client port for Reaper that usually shows up in the alsa midi tab of qjackctl. I've done the usual checks, and before i think about recompiling wineasio, is this an identifable challenge, or simply a sudden glitch?

Sounds like a sudden glitch. Have you rebooted again ?

Things don't typically just disappear in a Linux system.

You can always re-register the DLL with "regsvr32 wineasio.dll" to see what happens. :)

StudioDave
01-07-2008, 05:23 AM
I'd have to agree here, Daryl. I've had a morning on the google, investigating which soundcard companies offer linux as an added alternative. There are precious few, it seems. I think your point about locked software is a valid one too. Having the company 'secrets' open to the world might be a step too far for some.

I had responded to Daryl but decided not to post. Now I think I should post.

The notion that device drivers will somehow "give away" the company's crown jewels is. to be blunt, utter bullshit. Open-source drivers exist for the Creative Labs gear, which one might assume would be worth cloning. Didn't happen, got no clones, because there's little point in attempting to reverse-engineer a device from its driver. Given the existing open-source drivers for RME, Creative, and M-Audio, surely someone would have stepped up to the plate and built those hardware clones by now, neh ?

From what I've discovered, drivers are often the last piece of the puzzle, often written only just before a product is shipped, and many drivers are written poorly, are poorly documented, and may not even be comprehensible to their authors.

Odd, isn't it ? With drivers, the gear sells. No drivers, no sales. Logic would seem to dictate that it makes sound financial sense to offer Linux drivers, or at least offer the specs to the ALSA team so they can write the drivers.

Of course, the dearth of good sense is not limited to any particular sector of the social beast.

Alex Stone
01-07-2008, 05:24 AM
Sounds like a sudden glitch. Have you rebooted again ?

Things don't typically just disappear in a Linux system.

You can always re-register the DLL with "regsvr32 wineasio.dll" to see what happens. :)

Yep that did it. Thanks Dave.
Any idea how i can get the wineasio midiports to showup in qJackctl
again? They're working, but not showing.
(They do however show up in Patchage.)

Thanks for the tip!

Alex.

Deep in the linux jungle, and getting buzzed by truculent winbugs, resentful of my departure. The journey continues.....

Alex Stone
01-07-2008, 05:27 AM
I had responded to Daryl but decided not to post. Now I think I should post.

The notion that device drivers will somehow "give away" the company's crown jewels is. to be blunt, utter bullshit. Open-source drivers exist for the Creative Labs gear, which one might assume would be worth cloning. Didn't happen, got no clones, because there's little point in attempting to reverse-engineer a device from its driver. Given the existing open-source drivers for RME, Creative, and M-Audio, surely someone would have stepped up to the plate and built those hardware clones by now, neh ?

From what I've discovered, drivers are often the last piece of the puzzle, often written only just before a product is shipped, and many drivers are written poorly, are poorly documented, and may not even be comprehensible to their authors.

Odd, isn't it ? With drivers, the gear sells. No drivers, no sales. Logic would seem to dictate that it makes sound financial sense to offer Linux drivers, or at least offer the specs to the ALSA team so they can write the drivers.

Of course, the dearth of good sense is not limited to any particular sector of the social beast.

Wonderful read.

So there's no excuse then!

Alex.

plush2
01-07-2008, 08:48 AM
Add to that suspicions that opensource drivers will reveal trade secrets about the hardware and you start to see why some devices are completely stymied on linux.

Suspicions are powerful things, especially when they are vague and unfounded. Sorry for perpetuating this one and thank you for adding some clarity.

Alex Stone
01-10-2008, 03:04 AM
A big thank you to Woot, for this, for a defintive howto for not only Wineasio, but all the other steps you need before then.
If you're thinking of doing Linux Audio, then this is invaluable information, and a simple walkthrough that even i can follow.

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16786

Thanks Woot!

S-N-S
01-11-2008, 07:24 AM
when i get my new harddrive for my fujitsu siemens amilo m1450g laptop

i wanna make a dualboot system with vista and xp
but now im thinking on trying making it with vista and linux,but is it worth it??

what version of linux is the best/easiest to set-up for audio??

will reaper work in linux??

how about vst support?

also i got some hardware that i will want to use.
i got

emagic amt8 midi-interface
yamaha rm1x
and a cubase system 4 soundcard

will that work(driver wise??)

daverich
01-11-2008, 07:27 AM
when i get my new harddrive for my fujitsu siemens amilo m1450g laptop

i wanna make a dualboot system with vista and xp
but now im thinking on trying making it with vista and linux,but is it worth it??

what version of linux is the best/easiest to set-up for audio??

will reaper work in linux??

how about vst support?

also i got some hardware that i will want to use.
i got

emagic amt8 midi-interface
yamaha rm1x
and a cubase system 4 soundcard

will that work(driver wise??)

Yes reaper will work in linux.

I would suggest Ubuntu as there's alot of tutorials around based on that distribution,- and it's pretty stable and easy to work with.

Can't really shed any light on your hardware, but 5 minutes with google and you'll have your answer.

Kind regards

Dave Rich

sekim
01-11-2008, 11:45 AM
Any chance the mods could do a Reaper Linux forum?

This is all fascinating stuff and I may try it one day. It'd be nice to have more than just the one thread to document things. I suspect I'm not the only one watching and thinking I may try it at some point. Of course I'll have questions about it and want to post and dumping them into this thread would make it that much more difficult to follow, rich as it may be and worth following...

w00t
01-12-2008, 08:23 AM
hi guys :)


here is another document for those who are linux curious......It's a howto on installing ubuntu with "wubi" this basically lets you install ubuntu from within windows, and that may help some people who may not want to just go all gun-ho or are not sure about hardware etc....




http://www.howtoforge.com/wubi_ubuntu_on_windows


http://blog.justaleaf.com/2007/09/wubi-install-linux-on-windows-safe-and.html




here are the guides i found, but there are probably a ton of them :)




so there you go, trying linux without having to repartition and junks :P

kenn
01-12-2008, 09:58 AM
In answer to Alex's earlier question about audio hardware in Linux, over the last year, I've occasionally booted my PC using the bootable-CD distro Musix (http://musix.org.ar/en/index.html), and it had no problems detecting and using my M-Audio 2496 (PCI), but I haven't yet really beat on it hard in Musix. I hope to in the near future, when I build my next PC which will be a Linux box.

Great thread, this. Lots of useful Linux info. I'm happy to hear that Reaper under Wine is working so well, but I'm still hoping for that native-Linux version in the near future. It's a more important goal than a Mac version, IMHO ;)

lowkey
01-12-2008, 09:29 PM
Hi Alex and Co,

Ive just joined the forum after lurking for a while. Thanks for posting about your exploits and keep up the good work :D

Shan
01-12-2008, 09:41 PM
Any chance the mods could do a Reaper Linux forum?

Not quite a forum, but there has been a Linux Sticky for quite some time:

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8776

Shane

Wombat
01-13-2008, 01:17 AM
For those who use EastWestQL Orchestra, I can report that mine loaded without a hitch in Linux/wineasio and runs flawlessly (apart from my crap keyboard playing). As usual, it installed itself in its own VST folder. If you drag it out of there and pop it into your generic folder with all the other dlls, just make sure you tell it where you've put it or it'll pout and refuse to go.

BIG "hear, hear" to Alex's comments about wOOt's primer! I hadn't a clue what I was doing with Linux and couldn't follow much of this giant thread, but thanks to his easy instructions I've got everything going nicely in plain old vanilla flavoured Ubuntu 7.1. I was a big sceptic, Brothers, but now I seen the light an' it ain't no miserly 40-watt econo-fluro. If you're at all hesitant about going on this Linux journey, just set up a dual-boot system and go for it. The one tip I'd pass on for beginners like me is don't rush it! There's a fair bit of downloading to do and digging around on the net for answers to problems. Allow yourself a few days to work it all through and you'll be a Reaper of great benefits.

Thanks to all who've helped. :D

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 05:02 AM
In answer to Alex's earlier question about audio hardware in Linux, over the last year, I've occasionally booted my PC using the bootable-CD distro Musix (http://musix.org.ar/en/index.html), and it had no problems detecting and using my M-Audio 2496 (PCI), but I haven't yet really beat on it hard in Musix. I hope to in the near future, when I build my next PC which will be a Linux box.

Great thread, this. Lots of useful Linux info. I'm happy to hear that Reaper under Wine is working so well, but I'm still hoping for that native-Linux version in the near future. It's a more important goal than a Mac version, IMHO ;)


Kenn, thanks for the input. Interesting that the maudio will work with a 'live' boot as well.

More useful info...

Alex.

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 05:08 AM
Hi Alex and Co,

Ive just joined the forum after lurking for a while. Thanks for posting about your exploits and keep up the good work :D

You're welcome Lowkey.

There's quite a few interesting developments coming up, and i've had a few devs contact me about what we're doing here, and just how well Reaper works in wine/linux.

If you're writing, and using gig files, then Linuxsampler is well worth a visit. Those guys have done a great job of giving us a sampler that works, is stable, and is ongoing in development. Good team of people over there.

And let's put Reaper where it deserves to be, at the centre of this. The Reap team's support has been excellent, and the opportunity to use a class act as a daw in linux is a big bonus.

Stay tuned!

Alex.

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 05:11 AM
For those who use EastWestQL Orchestra, I can report that mine loaded without a hitch in Linux/wineasio and runs flawlessly (apart from my crap keyboard playing). As usual, it installed itself in its own VST folder. If you drag it out of there and pop it into your generic folder with all the other dlls, just make sure you tell it where you've put it or it'll pout and refuse to go.

BIG "hear, hear" to Alex's comments about wOOt's primer! I hadn't a clue what I was doing with Linux and couldn't follow much of this giant thread, but thanks to his easy instructions I've got everything going nicely in plain old vanilla flavoured Ubuntu
7.1. I was a big sceptic, Brothers, but now I seen the light an' it ain't no miserly 40-watt econo-fluro. If you're at all hesitant about going on this Linux journey, just set up a dual-boot system and go for it. The one tip I'd pass on for beginners like me is don't rush it! There's a fair bit of downloading to do and digging around on the net for answers to problems. Allow yourself a few days to work it all through and you'll be a Reaper of great benefits.

Thanks to all who've helped. :D

Wombat!
Didn't exactly have to drag you kicking and screaming, lol.
Good to hear you're enjoying yourself, and it's wise advice you give. A few days planning works well, and reduces the chance of messing things up.
And you're doing all this fuelled by West End!

Dreadful beer.


:)

Alex.

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 05:12 AM
Suspicions are powerful things, especially when they are vague and unfounded. Sorry for perpetuating this one and thank you for adding some clarity.

Plush, it's cool man. We have the right picture now, and that's good.

Alex.

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 05:17 AM
Not quite a forum, but there has been a Linux Sticky for quite some time:

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8776

Shane

Hehe, all we need now is WT to do a nice splash of Reaper/Linux, and we'll be.....professional!

:)

Alex.

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 05:29 AM
After a little time doing this, i've had the good fortune to meet and communicate with quite a few of the talented devs building linux programmes and utilities, There's growing interest in the interaction between linux and Reaper/wine.

If you have any suggestions for improvements in associated programmes that work with, or would compliment Reaper, please post them, and i will do my best to pass them on. Quite a few devs are reading this thread, as they tell me, but i'll let em know as well, lol.

Thanks again to all who continue to contribute, not only in code, but with useful tips, wisdom and experiences, and that includes devs from other programmes, including linux daws, who have a passionate and ongoing interest in seeing linux mature even further, and who have contacted me to offer their support, advice, and encouragement, using Reaper in linux.

Every bit counts in the journey forward.

Some possible amusement for you...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa1RCg-Ccp0



Alex.

S-N-S
01-13-2008, 05:57 AM
has anyone tried using the dynebolic 2,5,2 version??i will see if i can start it up on a live-cd later today

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 06:37 AM
has anyone tried using the dynebolic 2,5,2 version??i will see if i can start it up on a live-cd later today

Michael,

One of our colleagues, (Bungle i think, i lost the chat)
in IRC tried Dyne as a 'live' cd and reported it went ok.
If you try this yourself, can you post back here and share your experiences? It could be useful to others who want to dabble their toes in the linux waters.

Thanks,

Alex.

Wombat
01-13-2008, 06:45 AM
And you're doing all this fuelled by West End!

Dreadful beer.


:)

Alex.

West End???spluttergurglevomit??? :eek: Never!! Coopers, man, Coopers! (But you did have the description of West End right - fuel. Works quite well in a lawn mower, I'm told...).

Onwards, brave Alex, we're right behind you.

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 07:27 AM
As a complete aside to the journey so far, i share Dave's admiration of 404's avatar. It is indeed, very cool. :)


So 404, can i ask you to consider designing a splash screen for Reaper/Linux along the same lines?
I think it would be a wonderful addition to the varied and unique options open to us in the mighty Reaper, and the superb Linux. There's a certain ironic humour in the idea of starting Reap, in Linux, with a pic to match.


Alex.

:)

sbenno
01-13-2008, 07:30 AM
Alex, an idea that comes to mind in order to make the installation of reaper+linuxsampler on linux easy could be writing a small shell script which does everything automatically. Of course this is linux distribution dependent so perhaps we should target Ubuntu 7.10 first since it is user friendly, you already have experience with it and it seems to work very well. (I recently switched from Fedora to Ubuntu and I am impressed by the userfriendliness of the distro).

Basically this shell script should automate every step which you normally perform manually.
things like installing jack, wineasio, compiling linuxsampler by hand with tuned parameters etc.

So basically once the script will be in place in order to recreate Alex's setup you just download and execute the shell script and after a few minutes of downloading and compiling you have your optimized linux reaper+linuxsampler DAW ready without spending days fiddling around with your system :)

cheers,
Benno

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 07:34 AM
Alex, an idea that comes to mind in order to make the installation of reaper+linuxsampler on linux easy could be writing a small shell script which does everything automatically. Of course this is linux distribution dependent so perhaps we should target Ubuntu 7.10 first since it is user friendly, you already have experience with it and it seems to work very well. (I recently switched from Fedora to Ubuntu and I am impressed by the userfriendliness of the distro).

Basically this shell script should automate every step which you normally perform manually.
things like installing jack, wineasio, compiling linuxsampler by hand with tuned parameters etc.

So basically once the script will be in place in order to recreate Alex's setup you just download and execute the shell script and after a few minutes of downloading and compiling you have your optimized linux reaper+linuxsampler DAW ready without spending days fiddling around with your system :)

cheers,
Benno

Benno, an excellent idea. I'm about to try recompiling LS with 800 voices (wish me luck, hehe), so as soon as i get that done, or clean up the mess afterwards, i'll post the order of startup for me. StudioDave helped me with this earlier in the journey, and i have a modest but incomplete script running to automate at least some of the process. I have a question here. I have now 5 templates that i've built for in LS/Reaper that emulate different size ensembles.

(And for those who want to match templates in LS/Reap, both have infinite port create/destruct capability to order. Ls at the channel level, and Reap in it's mighty routing ability. Makes matching things up very easy indeed, and are powerful attributes of both programmes.)

Can a script be written to start the template inside ls and reaper as well?
I could then have 5 or 6 executable scripts on my desktop, according to which ensemble i want to work with at the time.

(Concert Orchestra, Film Orchestra, Short Orchestra, Beethoven Classic, Quick Draft, Threestave notes, etc....)



Alex.

p.s. If this works, i'm going to do a dummies version of compiling LS in linux with notes about the parameters the user can select. Can i use some of the excellent explanations you sent me?

In addition to this, as a note of curiosity, can Windows users make the same adjustments, or do you guys have to do that?

On the bleeding ledge, and loving it....the journey continues

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 07:52 AM
Benno,

You can also count me in for a generic opensource sample format. No more dependency on commercial restrictions sounds ideal to me. If i had to convert or rebuild every sample in my library by hand, it would still be worth it.

Alex.

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 07:58 AM
Something that's been on my mind for sometime, and after having to D/L a commercially licensed sdk, just to compile an asio driver, i'm even more curious than ever.

Why don't we have a linux or opensource equivalent of ASIO?

LAZIO?

Would there be enough interest in the Linux audio community to consider this? Given the large difference in performance between normal audio processes, and the low latency achieved with ASIO so far, is there a linux equivalent?

And if "LAZIO" were developed, how easy would it be to have as an optional format in Win Programmes, like Reaper?

Or do i have the wrong perspective of this?

I would be interested to know why or why not.

Alex.

rrroscar
01-13-2008, 07:59 AM
Benno,

You can also count me in for a generic opensource sample format. No more dependency on commercial restrictions sounds ideal to me. If i had to convert or rebuild every sample in my library by hand, it would still be worth it.

Alex.

2nded, 25thed and 387948thed

sbenno
01-13-2008, 08:01 AM
Yes Alex of course you can use the explanations I sent you privately to write your own howtos and tutorials :)

Windows users can compile LS themselves too but it is quite a mess as it requires a ton of development packages installed and some tweaking. We did not write a windows compile howto for LS yet so the user has to figure it out by himself which can be a bit frustrating if you are not experienced.
This is why we want to remove the hardcoded stuff in the next version and allow changing at runtime the parameters like number of voices, buffer sizes, ram preload sizes etc.
This way you can tune LS to match your RAM and CPU resources and get out the most of the sampler.
Of course this will work on Linux too so recompiling will hopefully be a thing of the past soon.

About your template scripts I don't understand what you mean. setting up jack connections (this is already done by qsampler) or what ?

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 08:05 AM
Yes Alex of course you can use the explanations I sent you privately to write your own howtos and tutorials :)

Windows users can compile LS themselves too but it is quite a mess as it requires a ton of development packages installed and some tweaking. We did not write a windows compile howto for LS yet so the user has to figure it out by himself which can be a bit frustrating if you are not experienced.
This is why we want to remove the hardcoded stuff in the next version and allow changing at runtime the parameters like number of voices, buffer sizes, ram preload sizes etc.
This way you can tune LS to match your RAM and CPU resources and get out the most of the sampler.
Of course this will work on Linux too so recompiling will hopefully be a thing of the past soon.

About your template scripts I don't understand what you mean. setting up jack connections (this is already done by qsampler) or what ?

Aaah, sorry Benno, my poor description. I meant a script that automatically loaded the right template with the saved port layout. So for example Script one would open Qjackctl, with the right port template, Ls would open and load the right template, and Reaper would do the same.

Script 2, etc...


Alex.

daverich
01-13-2008, 08:07 AM
Something that's been on my mind for sometime, and after having to D/L a commercially licensed sdk, just to compile an asio driver, i'm even more curious than ever.

Why don't we have a linux or opensource equivalent of ASIO?

LAZIO?

Would there be enough interest in the Linux audio community to consider this? Given the large difference in performance between normal audio processes, and the low latency achieved with ASIO so far, is there a linux equivalent?

And if "LAZIO" were developed, how easy would it be to have as an optional format in Win Programmes, like Reaper?

Or do i have the wrong perspective of this?

I would be interested to know why or why not.

Alex.

I *believe* jack and alsa can work pretty much as well as asio.

Personally I would love to see Jesusonic become a plug in standard for linux, whether that's possible or not I guess is up to Justin, but I could understand it if he wasn't up for it.

Kind regards

Dave Rich

sbenno
01-13-2008, 08:17 AM
Alex, LAZIO would not make sense as ASIO was only a crutch by Steinberg to overcome to Window's bad driver model (we are talking about MME drivers with ridiculously high latencies).
In some regard ASIO is still very good and often preferable to native Windows drivers.

But the ASIO model compared to what jackd offers on linux looks like something prehistoric.
wineasio was only implemented because ASIO is supported by most if not all pro audio apps for windows and offers a simple way to bridge jack with windows apps achieving low latency performance.

So basically it would not make sense to implement LAZIO.

BTW the linux audio developers just have posted the new plugin specs called LV2:
http://lv2plug.in/

(it's an open standard so it should work on any platform).
It's quite new but more flexible than VST as it is extensible and do not use fixed data types.
If the standard gains traction we will implement a LV2 interface for LS too.
The ideal would be if at some point Reaper will be released as a native Linux application providing a LV2 interface.
This would be the most efficient way to run Reaper and LS as in this case LS would run as plugin without needing to send data around between apps using jack. (saves process context switches and memory back and forth copying).

contrary to VST, LV2 is flexible so it does not have the 1 input midi port limitation which is so problematic for VST as you need to run multiple instances when working with large templates and this has the downside that each additional often instance consumes precious RAM and CPU cycles.
Of course this is future music but 6-12 months from now we it could already be the standard :)
We will see :)

404NotFound
01-13-2008, 09:05 AM
As a complete aside to the journey so far, i share Dave's admiration of 404's avatar. It is indeed, very cool. :)


So 404, can i ask you to consider designing a splash screen for Reaper/Linux along the same lines?
I think it would be a wonderful addition to the varied and unique options open to us in the mighty Reaper, and the superb Linux. There's a certain ironic humour in the idea of starting Reap, in Linux, with a pic to match.


Alex.

:)

Great idea, but it's not my work, I must admit... I've "stolen" it from deviantart, here's the link:
http://vashz.deviantart.com/art/The-Man-22626770
I hope someone in here also has an deviantart account, so he could ask Vashz for permission...

Concerning audio interfaces, I would recommend RME, namely the Hammerfall series (Multiface/Digiface, HDSP96xx). The drivers are rock stable, the interfaces achieve damn low latencies and - it's made in Germany :D I've got a Multiface and won't use anything else anymore.

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 02:03 PM
Quick Update:
After a lot of research and a lot of help from the LS team, i've just recompiled LS to use 800 voices. Htop reports LS is using 2.7GB of memory, for 77% of the total. (Memlock is 2.9GB) CPU comes in for use with LS at standstill with a big template loaded at 3.9% per processor. (7.7% total for all processes, per processor.) Swap file is 35mb out of a possible 3.5GB.

Took a while and some nerve to do this, as i didn't want to break anything in the process.

Quite a feat, and ironically satisfying given my former efforts with GS in Win.

I will report back with updates on the performance, but so far everything works as well as before. I'll give Reaper some big orchestral work to do, and make sure i have the diskstream parameters ok.

(A question for the linux wizards. Is there a linux prog that allows me to check disk in/outs on the fly? I can give a better picture if i can examine the disk stream under load.)

Worth remembering here, with all these big numbers, that not all voices will be sounding at once, e.g. This represents multiple articulations for each instrument, so they won't be playing legato and Pizz at the same time (in normal circumstances.).

I continue to be impressed with LS, and Reaper's performance under such loads, and with such a large number of ports being used. Frankly, Reaper eats just about everything i can throw at it.

More to come, but i find this stuff rather exciting... :)

And i NEVER envisaged i'd be doing all this in 1 box. For someone who's laboured and struggled over multiple boxes, and juggled resources most of his computer working life, this is a revalation, to put it mildly.

Alex.

p.s. I've just been asked why i would need 800 voices?

With string sections running 6 or 7 layers, and in normal play, each section can run to 32 voices quite easily. Add to that any divisi work, extra instruments in the woodwind, brass etc.. and the numbers soon add up, particularly in busy, big passages. I envisage a peak around 600 to 650 voices, but if the system is tuned to 800, then i'll have headroom to spare.
Hope this makes sense. :)

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 02:06 PM
Great idea, but it's not my work, I must admit... I've "stolen" it from deviantart, here's the link:
http://vashz.deviantart.com/art/The-Man-22626770
I hope someone in here also has an deviantart account, so he could ask Vashz for permission...

Concerning audio interfaces, I would recommend RME, namely the Hammerfall series (Multiface/Digiface, HDSP96xx). The drivers are rock stable, the interfaces achieve damn low latencies and - it's made in Germany :D I've got a Multiface and won't use anything else anymore.

Thanks for the input 404.
I find myself gravitating more and more to RME, over the others, but i will keep researching this, as i wish to make the right purchase the first time out! :)

I sent an email, out of curiosity to Creamware, asking if they had , or were considering, linux drivers for Scope cards.

I've yet to hear back.

Alex.

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 02:16 PM
Ok, next part in the finetuning process.

As i can set midi bandwidth in both Reaper and linux, i'm ok to increase this according to need. (I continued to be stoked at this, lol.)

What part does Wine play in this?
As i have everything going through Wine, via wineasio, i'm curious about Wine's role. Does it have a midi bandwidth limit of it's own, or does it rely on the kernel setting within the OS?

If wine needs configuring for midi bandwidth, how do i do this? I've tried to find out by hammering google, but with no success so far.



Alex.

This mighty journey continues......

sbenno
01-13-2008, 02:44 PM
Alex:

800 stereo voices is a lot, according to my calculations your box should (using both cores with jack-dmp) should peak out around 500-600 voices and it will put quite a stress on the disk too.
I am curious what numbers you will get out of your box.
keep in mind that compiling LS for 800 voices and not using them means wasting a few hundred Kybte per voice (depends of your streaming buffer settings).
if you use the value 320000 then you will use 1MB per voice. this means assume you will peak out at 500 voices. it means the last 300 voices are not needed and compiling LS with voices = 500 could save you 300MB of RAM.
But since you know the numbers you can tweak it to suit your needs.
We hope to make the numbers runtime configurable soon as we see it is becoming a burden for power users like you and others. recompiling everything is not funny as it takes some time and windows want to enjoy maximum tweakabily and performance too.

As for MIDI bandwidth, I'm not sure but I think there is no such parameter in wineasio, it just forwards the MIDI data as fast as it can. inter-application MIDI transfers normally do not have limits as everything is done in RAM. MIDI bandwidth limits are normally related to serial MIDI: 31250 bits per sec = about 3000bytes/sec and given a normal midi command is 2-3 bytes long = up to 1000 midi commands per second. With USB the bandwith limits are much higher and AFAIK not really an issue (but there is some small jitter on USB as usb uses data frames while serial midi is more accurate (assuming you don't clobber the bandwidth).

Alex Stone
01-13-2008, 02:58 PM
Alex:

800 stereo voices is a lot, according to my calculations your box should (using both cores with jack-dmp) should peak out around 500-600 voices and it will put quite a stress on the disk too.
I am curious what numbers you will get out of your box.
keep in mind that compiling LS for 800 voices and not using them means wasting a few hundred Kybte per voice (depends of your streaming buffer settings).
if you use the value 320000 then you will use 1MB per voice. this means assume you will peak out at 500 voices. it means the last 300 voices are not needed and compiling LS with voices = 500 could save you 300MB of RAM.
But since you know the numbers you can tweak it to suit your needs.
We hope to make the numbers runtime configurable soon as we see it is becoming a burden for power users like you and others. recompiling everything is not funny as it takes some time and windows want to enjoy maximum tweakabily and performance too.

As for MIDI bandwidth, I'm not sure but I think there is no such parameter in wineasio, it just forwards the MIDI data as fast as it can. inter-application MIDI transfers normally do not have limits as everything is done in RAM. MIDI bandwidth limits are normally related to serial MIDI: 31250 bits per sec = about 3000bytes/sec and given a normal midi command is 2-3 bytes long = up to 1000 midi commands per second. With USB the bandwith limits are much higher and AFAIK not really an issue (but there is some small jitter on USB as usb uses data frames while serial midi is more accurate (assuming you don't clobber the bandwidth).

Thanks Benno.

I'll keep a close eye on this, but some sort of diskstreaming monitor will help get 'live' values, instead of configured ones.

If 500-600 voices is the peak, then i'll need to rethink this through.
Value is set at 160000, not 320000.

Thanks for the heads up.

Alex.

lowkey
01-13-2008, 10:50 PM
Just been checking out lv2. These guys arnt messing about! Every feature request I can think of (so far lol) for LinuxSampler can be solved if I think of it as part of a modular enviroment like Reason. Wild stuff :D

StudioDave
01-14-2008, 06:10 AM
Suspicions are powerful things, especially when they are vague and unfounded. Sorry for perpetuating this one and thank you for adding some clarity.

Not a problem, plush. However, as I re-read my posts I'm alarmed by my pedantic tone, and I apologize if I come off too strongly at times. I don't intend to offend when I send a correction, and I have all respect for *everyone* who has contributed to this thread.

StudioDave
01-14-2008, 06:13 AM
has anyone tried using the dynebolic 2,5,2 version??i will see if i can start it up on a live-cd later today

re: Apodio and Dynebolic:

http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1000096

re: Musix and StudioToGo:

http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1000104

Might be appropriate reading. :)