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View Full Version : Dull/Muffled sounding recordings. EQ?


Rutger Ockhorst
01-06-2008, 05:35 AM
Hey all,
I just started with using REAPER and have to say that I am thoroughly impressed with the flexibility and possibilities.

So far all my recordings (did some previous recording with other software) have sounded a little bit dull/muffled to me. This is okay for demo and song writing purposes but I'd like to be able to get that open, sparkling and crispy sound of a pro recording. I've fiddled around with EQ and suggested settings found on the web, but I just can't get to it. As an example, below I'll post a link to my first REAPER test recording, a 10 second MP3 whipped up on the fly (might make it into a REAPER fm jingle). This should illustrate what I mean by muffled (although it's not that bad). I'll also post the settings (no EQ yet). If anyone has some thoughts or suggestions to beef up and open up the sound I'm all ears.

The MP3 example (http://www.rutgerockhorst.com/forums/test.mp3)

Gear and Setup:
Drums: EZdrummer, default settings (sounds fine to me for now)
All Guitars: Line 6 Toneport (Marshall sim) with some variations (gain, pickups)
Rythm: no panning, center
Lead 1: panned hard left
Lead 2: panned hard right
Bass: slightly panned off center
EQ: flat on all tracks

bullshark
01-06-2008, 09:53 AM
There's a sharp dip in the 1 to 2.5 KHz range, and that's the sweet spot where most of the "air" lives. Made simple test using an EQ to raise those frequencies a bit, an exciter and compressed down the bass (120HZ down) and highs (10K up). Not saying that's what you should do, but I think you should look into your mix and try to find why that drop is there.

http://www.s94641883.onlinehome.us/testEXC.mp3

Of course starting from an mp3 and recompressing again to mp3 ain't gonna win any awards, but it was just a quick test to see if the mix would open up a bit.

Rutger Ockhorst
01-06-2008, 11:01 AM
Thanks Bullshark!
I know it's hard to judge something like this from an mp3.

I updated the mp3 I posted earlier, because I noticed that I forgot to turn off one fx-knob that might have been responsible for that dip you noticed. But I hear no real difference. Even though you could only EQ the entire track, it does sound a little more open the way you did it. I'd be interested in hearing experiences from anyone that has some rock to metal experiences with similar recording setups (bass, rythm and the occasional double lead) and how they approach the mixing/EQ-ing, overall and individual tracks.

Rutger Ockhorst
01-06-2008, 12:08 PM
I decided that 6 MB is a small sacrifice to temporarily upload compared to all the benefits it might have. So, here it is (with rerecorded bass):

Project + uncompressed wavs (http://www.rutgerockhorst.com/forums/test.zip)

This is not the final version, but mixing pointers for the future are much appreciated!

Petersko
01-06-2008, 11:14 PM
I couldn't figure out why all of my guitar recording would sound duller than when I was playing it. Since I was using direct recording, rather than mic'ing, it should have sounded the same.

Then I had it pointed out to me that while I'm recording electric guitars, I'm hearing things that don't make it onto the recording. High frequency sounds such as string scrapes, pick noise... mechanical stuff. I'm also hearing the recorded audio plus the the tinny natural sound of the played strings themselves.

Rutger Ockhorst
01-07-2008, 02:06 AM
Then I had it pointed out to me that while I'm recording electric guitars, I'm hearing things that don't make it onto the recording. High frequency sounds such as string scrapes, pick noise... mechanical stuff.
You hear this on a modern record unless it's intentional? Nope. Why not? Because the guitar amp is in a different room than the player (his eardrums blow out otherwise). Now if you had said something about room ambience, mic bleed and reflections, you might've been on to something.

I'm not asking for miracles, I'm asking for some good EQ/FX advice to liven things up.

[edit: there used to be a harsh line here because I misinterpreted Petersko. Apologies]

spikemullings
01-07-2008, 05:23 AM
Sorted. Good man Rutger :)

Rutger Ockhorst
01-07-2008, 07:15 AM
@Spikemullins and Petersko
Mistakingly read Petersko's post as a can of sarcasm. My bad, apologies. Carry on.

Chip
01-07-2008, 07:32 AM
I agree with Spike - I think that you totally misunderstood Petersko !! I think an apology is called for.

Petersko's point was that when you are DI'ing an electric guitar, you are only recording sound from the electric signal - you are not hearing the acoustic sounds that your guitar makes. These acoustic sounds from an electric tend to be 'tinny' sounds, such as finger squeaks, pick noise and in fact the string vibration itself.

I also have the same experience with recorded sound being 'duller' than I think it ought to be, so am interested in the replies.

Rutger Ockhorst
01-07-2008, 08:42 AM
I agree with Spike - I think that you totally misunderstood Petersko !! I think an apology is called for.

Apologies all round. I'll remove the line to hopefully make the topic more useful/readable.

Back on topic:
I'm also interested Chip, but the points you and Petersko bring up don't make a lot of sense to me (not saying they're wrong, I just don't understand 'em). Mostly because of what I wrote in my original reply to Petersko: stuff like fingersqueeks DO get translated into electric signal output from your guitar (turn up your amp and slide your fingers around). So do the specific tonal characters of your particular guitar and the thickness of your strings. It's all in there. Your real life amp doesn't fabricate these things by itself, it's all in the signal, it's just the way your amp deals with it that makes a difference (pinch harmonics are a good example: no good with a clean setting, but can be ripping when the gain is way up). So just blaming it on the DI'ing in general doesn't cut it I think. Of course, the specific DI and plugin/simulator you use does make a lot of difference. But it seems to melike we have something more general here.

Edit: what you could argue is that putting a mic in front of a cab colors the sound in a favorable way (to our ears) and that simulators have a hard time of reproducing it. That would make sense. Then the question becomes: how to overcome this and we get back to options we have, namely EQ and other fx.

LOSER
01-07-2008, 09:45 AM
I decided that 6 MB is a small sacrifice to temporarily upload compared to all the benefits it might have. So, here it is (with rerecorded bass):

Project + uncompressed wavs (http://www.rutgerockhorst.com/forums/test.zip)

This is not the final version, but mixing pointers for the future are much appreciated!

Okay, gave it a short try: http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/69872/retest.wav

Drums: LC ~40 (12db/oct); ~60 +3db 1 oct ~550 +3db 1 oct; ~8000 +6dB 1.5 oct; LP ~5700 (6dB/oct); some compression

Bass: LC ~20 (12db/oct); LS ~80 +6dB; ~60db -6db 1 oct; cut at 240; boost at 1k; add some saturation/tube drive

Lead Gtrs: LC 100; LS 240 +4; 8.5k +6 at 2oct; some drive

Ryth Gtrs: LC 150; 1k +4

Hope this helps.

Petersko
01-07-2008, 11:11 AM
Just getting back to this message. I have no idea why you would think I was being sarcastic. It certainly wasn't intended.

A lot of people on this board are bedroom hobbyists, and when you're recording at relatively low levels near your computer, you can clearly hear the unamplified strings of an electric in addition to the amplified sound. Those higher frequency sounds are not present on playback. It's especially bad for me when I use my hollow-body electric - what I hear when I play and what actually gets recorded are very different.

I'm kind of curious about what the original, unedited reply was!

No harm done, though. But I always say, if there are two ways to interpret something, and it's not really important, believe the happier one.

Rutger Ockhorst
01-07-2008, 01:32 PM
I'm kind of curious about what the original, unedited reply was!
It's the one sentence Bullshark quoted, so it's still here for your viewing pleasure

No harm done, though. But I always say, if there are two ways to interpret something, and it's not really important, believe the happier one.
Good advice I guess...Don't know why your post jumped at me


A lot of people on this board are bedroom hobbyists, and when you're recording at relatively low levels near your computer, you can clearly hear the unamplified strings of an electric in addition to the amplified sound. Those higher frequency sounds are not present on playback. It's especially bad for me when I use my hollow-body electric - what I hear when I play and what actually gets recorded are very different.
Yeah with acoustics, semi-acoustics and hollow bodies in mind I do get your point, then it adds a sort of charm to the sound (and changes are you're not going to make a melodic death metal record with it soon). But considering distorted solid bodies I'd say you'd want a pretty tight sound with less 'extras'.

I'm pretty happy with my simple relatively cheap recording setup (IMO toneport is a great gadget) and I'm not expecting billion dollar studio results. But still, I've got the feeling that with some pointers and a little know-how one could get a lot more out of this simple 10 second thingy. So again, suggestions? Make 'em as general or specific as you want, so everybody can enjoy.

stratman
01-07-2008, 01:59 PM
Rutger,

Your original sounded OK on my system, but I think LOSER did a good job of adding something extra. What do you think of his version?

BTW I use a Toneport UX1 and it's great.

Pete
.

Rutger Ockhorst
01-07-2008, 03:47 PM
@Loser + Stratman
Hey! That came pretty close to what I mean. It lost some of the brown sound and sparkled it up real nice, I quite like it. Maybe just a little bit overboard, esp. the drums sound a bit harsh now, but otherwise...Just one problem: I don't fully understand Losers lingo. I suppose those numbers are frequencies. What's LC and LP? Please elaborate a bit (and maybe even how you made your decisions).

@Stratman
note to self: gonna buy a better set of speakers for monitoring, it's on my to-do-soon-list. Currently listening through small cheapo minitower speakers.

@Petersko
Some creative thinking from my side to try and help with lively recording hollow bodies. I have no clue if this will work and I have no way to try, but very interested in the results. Here goes:
If you've got a decent recording setup with a mic, and also the possibility of recording through a DI, may you can record both at the same time and mix them together. I think this should be possible if you have a toneport, using the line inputs and the guitar input. Using the same device should get rid of any delay between the signals. Use the DI signal to get a tight recording and slightly mix in the mic recording to get an ambient and lively feel.

I love the way this topic is getting constructive people. Shame about the bad start.

Petersko
01-07-2008, 04:06 PM
If you've got a decent recording setup with a mic, and also the possibility of recording through a DI, may you can record both at the same time and mix them together.

I actually tried that. Turns out that no matter what ratio I mixed in the mic'd signal, it never sounded right. Might be my technique.

What DID sound right was buying yet another guitar with the tone I was looking for.

Now I've got 6 different guitars of different styles... and even that's not enough.

Rutger Ockhorst
01-07-2008, 04:23 PM
Now I've got 6 different guitars of different styles... and even that's not enough.

It's never enough :D

LOSER
01-07-2008, 04:31 PM
What's LC and LP? Please elaborate a bit (and maybe even how you made your decisions).


LC = low cut, LP = lowpass, LS = low shelve, everything else are peaking filters.

How I made the decisions, well, I didn't like what I heard, so I tweaked the knobs :o.

P.S. I didn't really spend much time on it, was just trying to give you some hints.

Rutger Ockhorst
01-08-2008, 04:53 PM
Okay, so I've been playing around with the EQ a bit and reading some stuff. That combined with Losers initial try led me to something I think is pretty decent, at least on my system. I'd like to have your opinions:

EQ instruments, no EQ on master (http://www.rutgerockhorst.com/forums/test4.mp3)

and my personal favourite (but feel free to disagree):
same EQ instruments, additional 5kHz +3-4 dB 1 oct on master (http://www.rutgerockhorst.com/forums/test5.mp3)

The 5k boost on the entire mix IMO already works wonders on the dry recording, especially opens up the guitars. Additional EQ-ing was mainly done to give the bass some more definition and move the rythm guitar out of its way. Together with some other suggestions and the 5k boost I figured out I also used this link (http://www.recordingwebsite.com/articles/eqprimer.php) as a rough guide. Pretty good pointers!

Next step is to redirect all drum segments to their own channel and fool around with that I guess.

Anyway: opinions please :D

EDIT: just found out that playing either file with the volume way down makes the rythm guitars pop out as the dominant part and doing so in a very harsh way...So I think I'm gonna sweeten them up a bit.

azsamsancho
01-08-2008, 07:26 PM
To the original poster --- I think your test5 is where you wanted originally to take your recording so u r there. SOunds pretty good to me.

I am also offering my version (attached), but I am complete amateur in mastering and mixing. I do not know theory at all. I follow the EQ Primer (you linked) guide and a I am very satisfied with the suggested EQ settings there. I wish there was such Primer for Compression settings..

Anywho, I like a bit more liveliness to my tracks, and as far as rock goes, i like the raw sound of Nirvana. So listen to my take on your track

Wolffman
01-09-2008, 04:52 AM
Seemed like you guys were having way to much fun to be left out so here's my attempt at polishing up the mix.
Here's a quick list of plugs i used
ReaEQ,ReaComp & Tls saturated driver ( a freebee ) and thats it, nothing on the Master faders

http://shup.com/Shup/17356/Wolffmanretest.mp3

All feedback good or bad is more than welcome
Cheers
Wolffman :)