Recording a live band

[Rasa]

Hello-I am looking for advice on how to set up a system for recording my band's shows to edit later. I am using a MR18 mixer and running it with X Air Edit. The PC uses a wireless connection to my router. The router is hard wired to the mixer. My question boils down to this: Do I use the same computer that is running the mix to also record files to an external storage device? Or would I be better off with another computer hard wired to the computer to record files to an external storage unit? Any advice would be appreciated.

[mschnell]

The Rack Mixer does not transfer audio via Wireless, but only via USB. Hence the recording PC needs to be located close to the mixer.

-Michael

[serr]

[You can't use your own wi-fi router with the XR18 for control surface connection. Period. Hard stop.] edit: I'm told this is not the case! You'll have to roam close to the stage if you use the built-in mixer to mix live.

But you said you're mixing live with Reaper anyway, so that would be a moot point! :)
And your router to computer connection for whatever your wireless control surface is is not part of the XR18 so you should be golden. Just using the XR18 as a USB audio interface. (Assuming this is what you are saying and not miscommunication!)

Have a SSD in that laptop for a system drive. Record to the free space on the SSD. (Have a big enough drive to do so.)

I've run live sound with Reaper for about 10 years now and recorded the full multitrack for every show for everything. You DO want to record to the SSD for that for the lowest CPU overhead. Never a glitch. I wouldn't consider recording to an external unless it was a thunderbolt connected SSD. But that would probably just work fine too.

Using a 2nd computer would require sharing a single interface with two computers BTW. That would be more complex and/or not possible. FYI, I used to use a C2D CPU laptop and could run sound with and record all 36 channels from two audio interfaces in aggregate device config with no issue. That was using like 96% CPU mind you but it was stable. The i7 machines just idle through all this.

If you are just recording with a computer and mixing with the built-in mixer in the XR18, you connect it with USB just like any USB audio interface. You can use relaxed latency settings and just about any computer from the last 15 years for such a thing. :)

[mschnell]

You can't use your own wi-fi router with the XR18 for control surface connection.
Why do you think so ? it just works as expected. RJ-45 cable between XR18 and Wifi Router.

And using one Computer (e.g. Laptop) attached to the XR18 via USB and running Reaper for multi-track recording, and another one (e.g. a tablet) attached via some kind of network, is no problem at all. I do this all the time. (In fact I have up to four computers at the same time attached to control the XR18 (plus the recording PC). No problems at all.

(I don't assume intends to do the live mixing using Reaper as an audio engine...)

-Michael

[serr]

Why do you think so ? it just works as expected. RJ-45 cable between XR18 and Wifi Router.

-Michael

I've been told so. Perhaps I'm misinformed! Apologies for perpetuating rumor if that's the case!

[TheWhistler]

You should use a wifi-router instead of the built in one.
Besides some other advantages you will benefit by not having to choose wether you want cable connection or wifi, the router handles both of it.

I have a XR18 running with a notebook for recording, a desktop (X-Air-Edit) and a X-Touch wired by an external router via network cable. AVery stable.

I like having an external router for better W-LAN quality.
The built in one does not have proper safety (WPS only I think) and nor dual band wifi.

[mschnell]

You should use a wifi-router instead of the built in one.
Yep. the single antenna is much to near to the metal device to cover a decent distance. So it is not for "Live" use.

You should use a 3 antenna router placed above the heads of the public.

-Michael

[TheWhistler]

Yep. the single antenna is much to near to the metal device to cover a decent distance. So it is not for "Live" use.

You should use a 3 antenna router placed above the heads of the public.

-Michael

Swissonic Basic Router (https://www.thomann.de/de/swissonic_basic_router.htm)https://thumbs.static-thomann.de/thumb/bdbmagic/pics/prod/427045.jpg (https://www.thomann.de/de/swissonic_basic_router.htm)

I am using this one, works quite nice, is easy to set up and not to expensive.

[uncleswede]

I think you could use the same laptop to both Mix and record a live band on the xr18 if it was a decent spec. I've always used an old second laptop for the USB recording simply because the recording laptop needs to be within 5m of the xr18 because of USB cable length restrictions. Then I use my main laptop to mix the show connected to an external router via 40m cat5 cable. However I keep meaning to try a USB Repeater cable to enable recording on the one, mixing laptop 40m from the stage. I suspect it might work 🤔

[serr]

I think you could use the same laptop to both Mix and record a live band on the xr18 if it was a decent spec.

Absolutely. Like I said, I was running up to 36 channels low latency for live sound production with a late 2008 Macbook Pro with a C2D CPU with a SSD for OS and recording all the multitrack to file. The higher spec i7 machines pretty much idle through this. (It WAS punishing for the C2D but it worked flawlessly.)

[mschnell]

[LEFT]Swissonic Basic Router (https://www.thomann.de/de/swissonic_basic_router.htm)
Looks good. if only it had a screw thread for a microphone stand ;)

-Michael

[TheWhistler]

This thread inspired me to think about using the already available network cable also for the usb-audio.

I have a network 5-port switch which lets me connect my X-Touch and a Notebook (for visual feedback e.g. levels, FX,..) to the XR18.

I was thinking about using one of those relativly cheap usb to network adapters.

Something like this maybe....
https://www.amazon.com/Network-Extender-Ethernet-Driver-Free-Version/dp/B01K9V7D18/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1549611075&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=VTOP+USB+über+CAT5%2F5e%2F6+50+Meter

One could use the same network cable for the control signals, which is midi and does not need a lot of bandwidth, right?

Using a second network switch on the stage which gets the network connection from the XR18 and the USB-audio
after it was connected to a USB to Cat network extender, seems to be neat solution (theoretically).
My notebook is a pretty fast machine and could handle both tasks flawlessly.
And one could check recording levels from the FOH which is not possible when a second notebook is on the stage.

Has anyone tried this?:D

[TheWhistler]

Looks good. if only it had a screw thread for a microphone stand ;)

-Michael

It sits in the back of my mixers case at the bottom of the stage, works though.

[mschnell]

I was thinking about using one of those relativly cheap usb to network adapters.
I doubt that this will work decently for Audio streams.

There is a reason why Dante is expensive ;) ;) ;)

-Michael

[TheWhistler]

I doubt that this will work decently for Audio streams.

There is a reason why Dante is expensive ;) ;) ;)

-Michael

I was pointed to this by a friendly guy in the german "Musikerboard"

https://www.elacom.de/bananatracker.php

Looks interesting, but I never dealt with Raspberry nor am I skilled in any way doing so.

[mschnell]

You can run Reaper on a RasPi (See -> https://www.reaper.fm/download.php#linux_download)

-Michael

[TheWhistler]

You can run Reaper on a RasPi (See -> https://www.reaper.fm/download.php#linux_download)

-Michael

Was just scrolling up to the first post but we´re still not off-topic:D
I have never dealt with linux or Raspberry.
I just thought it is neat to have small a "set and forget" solution for that.
I have to watch my levels on the XR18 and can get decent tracks later on without having to deal with to much extra stuff in a live situation.

Banana Tracker seems to be such a thing. Put it in the back of my rack.

Have you tried running Reaper on a Raspberry?

[mschnell]

I don't have a RasPi (yet) :(

-Michael

[cyrano]

Yep. the single antenna is much to near to the metal device to cover a decent distance. So it is not for "Live" use.

You should use a 3 antenna router placed above the heads of the public.

-Michael

Ever tried another antenna?

[mschnell]

Maybe setting a (better) antenna on a stand might improve the situation, but adding a long HF cable will degrade the signal. So I am not inclined to test this. Using a WLAN router connected by RJ45 is not that much more expensive but will provide a much better result.

-Michael

[cyrano]

If I was to set up a system like this, I'd install Reaper on a computer for recording over the XR18's USB connection, close to the XR18.

Then enable the web server on the recording Reaper for remote control.

Control it all from some device with a decent web browser. An iPad, or whatever computer you've got lying around.

The big problem with the Raspberry Pi is that it's ethernet port runs over it's one USB connection. Limited performance, not enough to transfer a lot of channels.

I don't know the Banana solution, but it seems tailored for a Banana Pi. Some models of the Banana range offer "real" ethernet ports. And IIRC the performance is a lot better. Possibly this wouldn't work on a "real" Raspberry Pi.

[TheWhistler]

If I was to set up a system like this, I'd install Reaper on a computer for recording over the XR18's USB connection, close to the XR18.

Then enable the web server on the recording Reaper for remote control.

Control it all from some device with a decent web browser. An iPad, or whatever computer you've got lying around.

The big problem with the Raspberry Pi is that it's ethernet port runs over it's one USB connection. Limited performance, not enough to transfer a lot of channels.

I don't know the Banana solution, but it seems tailored for a Banana Pi. Some models of the Banana range offer "real" ethernet ports. And IIRC the performance is a lot better. Possibly this wouldn't work on a "real" Raspberry Pi.

Thank you for chiming in and giving this technical explanation.
Do you think the recording notebook (with reaper of course9 near to the xr18 can be controlled via the same network cable the X-Touch controles the XR18?

In other words is it possible to just use network splitters on both side of a long connection?

[cyrano]

As long as only webpages, OSC or MIDI goes over the network, no problem. These are not affected by any slowdown or latency. It doesn't really matter if there's a second hickup in viewing a webpage. Or if you "stop" command arrives half a second later.

If you need to transport audio, it's an entirely different game. It needs to stay in sync.

In the config I described previously, audio goes over the USB bus. Even an old Core2duo laptop should be able to keep up recording 16 channels.

If you need to run VST's at low latency and sync that with live sound, you need a very beefy machine, or latency will ruin your session. I don't think that's what the OP intended, but I don't know.

Anyhow, it seems wise to test it before goin' live. Even if you just record 16 channels of silence.

I've been doing something like this for years. Lately with the webserver in Reaper and remote control for RME's TotalMix. Before these existed, with remote desktop software. That's a little more involved, like don't go switching programs like a madman, or it might hickup. But even that worked, provided there isn't anything else going on on the network.

If you mean "switches" with "network splitters". Yes. You don't even need the switch(es), as you can connect the XR18 with the remote computer with one cable. In the old days, you needed a "crossed" cable. Today's network gear is auto-switching and figures out there's no switch in between. But if you wanted to connect two computers, you'd need a switch. One computer controls reaper on the recording computer, the other one the webinterface of the XR18. Very flexible.

I sometimes put TotalMix' metering up on a big monitor, just as a gimmick. Seems to amaze some people :D

[audioguy_on_ca]

can someone let me know if I read this correctly off the bananatracker page:
"Streams two listen channels to the Tablet, incl. Solo function"

just to confirm I'm on the right track here:
I can monitor off the ipad I'm mixing on? with, say, a bluetooth headset?

[cyrano]

Haven't tried it, but that's what I read too.

Watch out.

This is for the Banana Pi. It probably won't work on the Raspberry Pi. The reason probably is the mediocre network performance of the Raspberry Pi, because it uses network over USB.

Even if the latest Raspberry Pi touts a Gbit ethernet port, it won't get over 300 Mbps. Not enough for multi-channel audio over network.

The Banana Pi has a SATA port, which makes connecting a SSD or a harddisk that much easier. With the Raspberry Pi, that SSD will also connect over the one internal USB2 port, just like the network.

The best thing about the Raspberry Pi is it's large community and the availability of a lot of hardware. Even multi-channel audio interfaces, fi. The Banana Pi has a lot smaller community and some Raspberry Pi hardware won't work with it.

[Yorky]

The RPi4 now available, has a new architecture in respect of USB and Ethernet offering a reportedly true Gigabit Ethernet controller detached from the USB controller. This has also allowed for USB3 [x2] connections on the Pi. It also has wifi and BT [5?]. As a piece of kit it has immense possibilities - given its massive developer base as compared to the other fruit flavoured SBCs. It will though drive the market forwards to faster, better small machines.
Early days of usage but it happily runs Reaper - needs thoroughly stress testing though.

[mschnell]

I totally agree !
Add a housing and an SSD or a some 100 GByte USB-3 stick and you can use Reaper to create a perfectly versatile multi track field recorder.
-Michael

[Yorky]

My little RPi4 project continues with the hardware side coming together nicely now. Flight case hinges changed for the lift off type; high capacity power bank arrived; 5v to 9v step up buck to power the FCB1010. Still awaiting the EEPROM firmware upgrade for the RPi4 to enable boot from USB. Increasing my understanding little by little of the workflows I want to achieve. All well and good.

So last night I received a call which has sent the few neurons I have left into a slight spin. A mate is organising acts at the newly built local village hall and called to say he could do with some of my gear to uplift his PA and monitoring. Next springtime a fairly prominent, and long standing UK based folk rock band are booked in. The opportunity to assist in the crew is great but also, to create a field based recorder [to coin Michael's phrase] and a media copier to sell thumb drives and the like of the show experience. Seems like more projects for Reaper in the Live with its mate the RPi! Onwards and forwards.