PDA

View Full Version : An open letter from the PARIS community re: PAF (PARIS Audio File) format support


kerryg
03-08-2009, 06:06 PM
Hi folks. My name's Kerry Galloway; I'm a Reaper user on Mac OSX, and I also administer a blog, a Wiki and now a web forum for the Ensoniq PARIS DAW (you can visit the forum at its temporary URL of http://kerrygalloway.com/ParisForums/). Thanks for taking the time to read this through.

There have been quite a few ex-PARIS users on the Reaper forums before, but like myself they've tended to be Reaper users already (it's assumed they run Reaper on other hardware besides PARIS, which never had properly functional ASIO drivers).

I'm contacting you now on behalf of a larger group of *potential* Reaper users, the current PARIS user community - still going, still of substantial size, still loving PARIS, and still moving forward with development.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that folks don't know it still exists; the community was traditionally based on USENET and has thus largely cruised "under the radar" until the recent launch of the web forums. Community leaders estimate its size at about 400; I have 150 of those so far in a growing "census" database and hope to add many more over time.

The PARIS community has been extremely busy in the last year. Thanks to developer Mike Audet the core drivers (PSCL) have been re-written and modernized, and a similar refurbishing/modernization of the ASIO drivers is under way.

With proper ASIO drivers for the first time, even those many die-hard PARIS users who love their DAW and would rather fight than switch will soon discover they don't *have* to switch - they can have both. I'd like them to see Reaper as an obvious choice.

I've researched your previous work on PARIS session/audio file import, and hunted the forums for definitive word on the status of the project without much success. I know ppj bogged down for lack of documentation; this will of course be a *highly* desirable feature for PARISians, and we've begun pursuing that documentation once more, but I'll set that aside for the moment.

I'm contacting you to -

1) enquire about the status of .paf import,
2) let you know that the active PARIS user community would find this feature *extremely* attractive,
3) provide a thread where PARIS community members can come and check in and let you know how sincerely they'd appreciate this, and
4) ask if there's anything the PARIS community might be able to do to help make this something you'd consider tackling.

---

Why do PARIS users feel they need this feature so badly? Doesn't PARIS support .wav? From the end-user perspective, .paf support would solve a series of interlocking problems.

- PAF is PARIS' only truly "native" format (although it is virtually unsupported elsewhere).
- yes, in theory PARIS supports .wav files as well as .paf, but there are significant "gotchas" involved; PARIS' implementation of .wav is impaired by limitation to 16 bit, and PARIS is seriously intolerant of .bwf header information (headers have to be stripped from .WAVs before import into PARIS). This can make flying tracks to Reaper for processing into a workflow nightmare of rendering, checking and converting, with multiple copies of the files being made.
- The aging PARIS application (which is currently the only practical way to access the PARIS hardware) was last updated in 2001 and no further updates are expected (although in many ways the app continues to give excellent service)
- we don't have the source code for the app so we can't get at these problems to repair them; the solution needs to come from outside the app.

So as you can see, being able to work in Reaper in .paf format would dramatically streamline workflow between Reaper and PARIS and permit direct 24-bit transfers. Support for .paf would be a very compelling argument for Reaper as the "must have" DAW for the PARIS community.

As you can imagine, we're a small community, and resources are at a premium. Besides Mike's work on the drivers, he's simultaneously ported a large backlog of plugins and even pitched in on troubleshooting php for the forums, and all of this is done in his limited free time. I do want to assure you, however, that we're not the sort of community that expects to chuck in a feature request and then sit back and expect you to do everything else for us - we've been working very hard from our end to reach a point where PARIS and Reaper "play nice" together. With some assistance from your end on compatibility, this could be the start of some very interesting Reaper/PARIS possibilities.

Thanks for listening, and if there's anything we can do from our end to make this possible, let us know!

Kerry Galloway
Admin,
The PARIS Forums http://kerrygalloway.com/ParisForums/
The PARISWiki http://www.kerrygalloway.com/WikiPARIS/wikka.php?wakka=HomePage

dub3000
03-08-2009, 09:44 PM
for what it's worth, it looks like the PAF format is documented in the code for libsndfile (open source).

is there any documentation on the Paris session file format anywhere?

kerryg
03-08-2009, 09:58 PM
thanks for the response. I think Justin does have the .paf docs already, and there may have been some .paf work done in Reaper already.

ppj is more elusive and we haven't found it anywhere online yet. We know where we could get the docs for ppj, and we've been asking for it for quite a while. We haven't yet received it, but on the other hand we haven't had a direct "no" either; we'll persist until we find a solution. As they say at NASA, failure is not an option.

dnafe
03-09-2009, 02:48 AM
I second Kerry's request.

Would love to be able to import my old Paris stuff into Reaper as it is presently my main non-paris DAW

MAB
03-09-2009, 02:53 AM
This is my first post ever so I'll keep it short.....Love PARIS hardware, love Reaper....PAF support would be great!

abstract_flight
03-09-2009, 06:52 AM
First post ever in this forum for me as well... and I will also keep it short.

Support or Paris Audio Files in Reaper would be absolutely phenomenal, and much, much appreciated.

Daniel

Xenakios
03-09-2009, 09:14 AM
Can anyone provide some PAF files to test? I am familiar with libsndfile, so if that supports those, doing some sort of a conversion extension DLL should be relatively easy. Direct (on-the-fly, no conversions required) support for playing back and recording in Reaper would be a bit trickier though. (Not impossible, but it's the kind of detailed and long-winded work I am not sure I'd want to do. I have no interest or need personally to have .PAF files working.)

kerryg
03-09-2009, 01:32 PM
I'm at work right now but I can send some to you tonight if nobody beats me to it.

.paf import/export facilities in Reaper via a .dll would make PARIS life simpler; it would be quicker and tidier than doing the same conversion using an external utility, as we do now. We'd certainly be grateful to see it implemented in Reaper as an interim measure.

But when the ASIO drivers are complete, the ability to work with .paf directly in Reaper as a fully supported format is what's going to really start to make the 400-member PARIS community see Reaper not just as one of many choices, but as *the* choice. We'd be keeping the community fully informed about these developments on the ParisForums and Wiki too.

Full .paf support would undoubtedly be more work, but it would be an important first step in the pursuit of the more fundamental PARIS/Reaper compatibility we'd like to see, and are working towards. The PARIS community is platform-loyal to a fault (as might be self-evident :D), and it's "up for grabs" right now - myself, I'd like to see Reaper take advantage of this moment and grab the PARIS community and hang on to it.

Excelav
03-09-2009, 03:43 PM
Hey Justin! I just wanted to say that this would be a great help to all Paris / Reaper users. As a former EMU-Ensoniq dealer I believe that there are many more Paris users in the world that are not counted in the 400 Paris community.

Last, I wanted to say thanks for developing Reaper for the Mac!

James

parisjedi
03-09-2009, 04:25 PM
There is no doubt if Reaper was able to read the Paris *.PPJ project files with stability, decent latency and using Paris hardware (and native, if that's possible) I'd jump into a purchase. I'm sure I can not be the only one that feels that way about it. Having VSTi on Paris hardware playback gets me giddy just thinking about it. Latency compensation would be stellar!

BTW, for those of you from the Paris forum that may not be aware, Justin F is a coding _master_ in the computer audio arts... being on the Reaper team just gives me all kinds of great vibes about the platform.

Aaron Allen

Xenakios
03-09-2009, 04:42 PM
You guys should probably try posting about this at the actual Feature Requests forum. The more complicated things you want done, the more difficult it will be for 3rd party programmers to do, and the less likely to happen. (This forum is about 3rd party Reaper related programming, not really for requests for new Reaper features aimed to the Cockos developers, who actually develop Reaper itself.)

kerryg
03-09-2009, 05:42 PM
much appreciated - I'll see if a mod can move the thread.

ganttmann
03-09-2009, 05:44 PM
Me too! Reaper would be a great place to go after 8 years in Paris!

Gantt Kushner
Gizmo Recording Company

404NotFound
03-09-2009, 06:08 PM
Both audio file and project file support can actually be done via the Extension API, so you chose the right forum. I think the Cockos guys should focus on the core functionality of Reaper, your request looks like a job for a third party developer - maybe Xenakios, maybe me, maybe someone else.

Joining the forum in numbers and +1'ing this thread doesn't help that much, providing specifications, sample files and source code (if available) does. If you get hold of something like this, please post it here.

Xenakios
03-09-2009, 06:29 PM
Of course the feasibility for Paris support can and should be discussed here. ;) But if for example the Paris project file format isn't openly available for study, the chances are very low to get that done, either by a 3rd party or by Cockos. :(

So what is needed instead of enthusiastic +1:ing in this thread here is sample sound files, spesifications, source code, like 404 said. :)

dub3000
03-09-2009, 07:28 PM
Joining the forum in numbers and +1'ing this thread doesn't help that much, providing specifications, sample files and source code (if available) does. If you get hold of something like this, please post it here.

or failing that, something like the following:

* empty project file: New/Saved, no changes, no data
* same file, but with a single item added. one track, start at 0.
* same as above, but with a second item added, same track. list where/how long it's there.
* same as above, second track
* same as above, single item split somehwere.
* same as above, one eq
* same as above, two eqs etc.

all in one zip file. the more the better, as long as the changes to each are clearly documented.

you get the idea - just the same project over and over again with one change in each.

if the format isn't encrypted it's possible that someone can reverse engineer a file format out of it (pretty sure this is legal). then someone else can take that spec and turn it into a dll (pretty sure this is also legal, as long as it isn't the same person - that's how the IBM PC bios got cloned).

if it's encrypted it's not going to happen, though.

kerryg
03-09-2009, 07:34 PM
But if for example the Paris project file format isn't openly available for study, the chances are very low to get that done, either by a 3rd party or by Cockos. :(

Right, absolutely; that's why I thought it was best to focus on .paf format for the moment, with its more easily available documentation.

As to .ppj docs, Justin indicated that he'd need them back in April '07 when he first started looking at including .paf/ppj in the core functionality - http://www.gearslutz.com/board/q-justin-frankel-designer-reaper/119736-reaper-emu-paris.html. That was before I took the job on from the PARIS end, and I'm sorry to say we dropped the ball back then - but we're on it now, and if ppj can be obtained it will be.

Actually, upon reflection I definitely agree that if our first priority is to finish getting .paf into the core functionality, that makes this a FR rather than a developer issue; with that in mind I'll still suggest a mod move the thread into FR and start a fresh one here down the road when we start tackling future plans.

I appreciate the input, folks, which does help a lot in focusing the quest - I'll get on organizing some .paf files and libsndfile. Thanks!

- K

pipelineaudio
03-09-2009, 07:54 PM
You guys should probably try posting about this at the actual Feature Requests forum. The more complicated things you want done, the more difficult it will be for 3rd party programmers to do, and the less likely to happen. (This forum is about 3rd party Reaper related programming, not really for requests for new Reaper features aimed to the Cockos developers, who actually develop Reaper itself.)

Oh ye of little faith

Ill put a copy in the FR, but this IS the right forum for it IMHO

jdm033056
03-10-2009, 05:37 PM
I also wanted to be counted.

pipelineaudio
03-10-2009, 07:08 PM
keep em coming

dub3000
03-10-2009, 08:20 PM
note: from what i've read, one of the reasons Paris has a decent reputation appears to be that the internal DSP does some kind of soft-saturation instead of clipping on overload which might be useful if you're trying to push a mix hard. you're not going to get this on reaper without extra effects since it won't generally ever clip (because of the floating point sound engine).

kerryg
03-10-2009, 10:02 PM
note: from what i've read, one of the reasons Paris has a decent reputation appears to be that the internal DSP does some kind of soft-saturation instead of clipping on overload which might be useful if you're trying to push a mix hard. you're not going to get this on reaper without extra effects since it won't generally ever clip (because of the floating point sound engine).

Hard to say *definitively* where the PARIS mojo lives, but Mike Audet rebuilt the PSCL (the Paris Studio Control Library .dll) from the ground up in the last six months, so he's got better insights than we lowly mortals :D.

But the PARIS app does "native" submixes as well as "card" (PARIS DSP-based) submixes, and it's long been the general consensus amongst the PARIS-using community that they do not have that same "mojo" as the DSP-based ones do.

Nor, as commonly speculated, do the convertors or clock seem to be the source of the "mojo" - using external converters or clocks with PARIS doesn't seem to bypass or even impair the mojo in the least, it makes it even better. And the app itself doesn't actually seem to do a whole lot of audio processing.

My layman's guess is that this points to most or all of the fabled mojo existing in the synergy of the PSCL and the card-based DSP it talks to. But I listen to my betters talk about things that sound like "non-linearities when rolling over 56-bit accumulators" (which I've probably got entirely wrong) and my attention starts wandering and I start thinking about chord progressions. I just know it doesn't make my "bass" sound like "ass" like ProTools does, and I don't struggle to mix on it and wind up layering on plugins to get things to "sit" like I do in Logic. With PARIS mixing, you just kind of push up faders and things start finding "homes" pretty fast.

dub3000
03-10-2009, 10:21 PM
(edit: deleted, not relevant to PARIS discussion, sorry)

mikeaudet
03-10-2009, 10:43 PM
I'm very interested. :)

Xenakios
03-11-2009, 02:57 AM
I might be very close in succeeding to add Paris audio file support via an extension plugin. I can already import the files into Reaper, and a new item of correct length is created, as well as the item source file properties show correct looking values. I'd really appreciate some genuine Paris created .paf files now... ;) Hopefully I get audio playback and peaks displays to work soon too.

http://stash.reaper.fm/2417/sourceProps.png

edit : peaks displays and audio playback work now. So what this actually turned out to be is on-the-fly support for .paf in Reaper (among some other potential audio file formats like Sound Designer 2). Nothing needs to be immediately converted etc to play the .paf files in Reaper. However, the performance may not optimal, so possibly using glue etc might be needed for big projects.

edit2 : unfortunately this exists only for Windows at the moment. However, not much platform spesific code is in the plugin so I might be able to compile relatively easily for OS-X once I get to an OS-X machine.

edit3 : the code has some problems with audio that needs to be resampled by Reaper. But if no resampling needs to happen for the audio, things seem to work quite fine.

dub3000
03-11-2009, 07:12 AM
very impressive, xenakios

kerryg
03-11-2009, 08:32 AM
you're a genius!!

(although actually I already knew that from your extensions on Mac OSX :D)

.paf files coming within about 45 min for testing; I don't have many because today is studio moving day, but I should have a small selection on hand.

- k

Xenakios
03-11-2009, 08:42 AM
you're a genius!!

(although actually I already knew that from your extensions on Mac OSX :D)

.paf files coming within about 45 min for testing; I don't have many because today is studio moving day, but I should have a small selection on hand.

- k

I just need them to verify things really work. I am using libsndfile and to test this I converted some wavs and flacs to .paf using libsndfile's tools. Quite obviously libsndfile will handle files it has itself created... ;)

I think I also got the resampling issue solved. :)

kerryg
03-11-2009, 09:16 AM
I just need them to verify things really work. I am using libsndfile and to test this I converted some wavs and flacs to .paf using libsndfile's tools. Quite obviously libsndfile will handle files it has itself created... ;)

I think I also got the resampling issue solved. :)

WooHOOO!

OK, the pafs are uploading (I'm just throwing them on my own server), but while they do, one *definitive* source of PARIS-generated paf files will be the original product demos that shipped with the platform. They're available on the PARIS Wiki for download now, at -

http://www.kerrygalloway.com/WikiPARIS/wikka.php?wakka=ParisDemos

- and they should give a pretty good range of content to check.

kerryg
03-11-2009, 09:48 AM
I just put out a call on the PARIS forums for PARIS/Reaper testers for when you need them (I'd do it myself, but I only have Reaper running on OSX right now).

A zipped folder of PAFs will be available for download at http://kerrygalloway.com/PARIS%20resources/PAFS.zip within seven or eight minutes.

Xenakios
03-11-2009, 10:16 AM
I got the files from the Paris wiki working! :) I will do some more testing and I suppose I can then upload the extension plugin for public testing.

Xenakios
03-11-2009, 10:57 AM
I just put out a call on the PARIS forums for PARIS/Reaper testers for when you need them (I'd do it myself, but I only have Reaper running on OSX right now).

A zipped folder of PAFs will be available for download at http://kerrygalloway.com/PARIS%20resources/PAFS.zip within seven or eight minutes.

Your files appear to work also.

404NotFound
03-11-2009, 11:02 AM
I had a look at the .ppj files from the Paris wiki. Good news: They're not encrypted like Pro Tools .pts and .ptf so technically it's possible to parse them. Bad news: It's tedious and time-consuming and takes _LOTS_ of demo files, as dub3000 mentioned earlier in this thread. Therefore it won't be of highest priority for me since there are project file formats that are more common and better documented - erm, well, documented at all.

tspring
03-11-2009, 11:13 AM
Ha! You just couldn't pass up the challenge could you Xenakios? I don't use Paris, but I still think that what you have done is very cool.

T

Xenakios
03-11-2009, 11:20 AM
Ha! You just couldn't pass up the challenge could you Xenakios? I don't use Paris, but I still think that what you have done is very cool.

T

Well I didn't do the toughest part here, the grunt work is done by libsndfile which is mostly authored by Erik de Castro Lopo. It basically took me under 2 hours to do the code needed to wrap the libsndfile functionality into a Reaper extension plugin.

.paf record/export support should be possible also but is a bit tougher and more boring to do.

Xenakios
03-11-2009, 11:25 AM
I just put out a call on the PARIS forums for PARIS/Reaper testers for when you need them (I'd do it myself, but I only have Reaper running on OSX right now).

A zipped folder of PAFs will be available for download at http://kerrygalloway.com/PARIS%20resources/PAFS.zip within seven or eight minutes.

Hmm the Peak Pro OS-X generated files actually fail... :( That likely is a libsndfile bug, which would be very difficult for me to try to fix.

Excelav
03-11-2009, 11:41 AM
I believe there is a difference between the Mac and PC PAF files. FYI, the Mac files are OS 9 only.

James

pixeltarian
03-11-2009, 11:46 AM
so, what would have to happen to just use reaper with an Interface MEC - is the MEC exclusive to the paris daw?

Tonehenge
03-11-2009, 02:06 PM
That Kerry...he really knows how to get this shit going! I guess he's going to be pushing up the value of old Paris components now....

dnafe
03-11-2009, 02:08 PM
so, what would have to happen to just use reaper with an Interface MEC - is the MEC exclusive to the paris daw?

In a word yes

developments are being done on a new ASIO driver for Paris but that is still a ways off

dnafe
03-11-2009, 02:11 PM
That Kerry...he really knows how to get this shit going! I guess he's going to be pushing up the value of old Paris components now....

Excellent, then I could dump this POS DAW and get a real one...like PT


hehehe

dub3000
03-11-2009, 02:39 PM
I believe there is a difference between the Mac and PC PAF files. FYI, the Mac files are OS 9 only.

part of the PAF data might be stored in the resource fork, which is a real pain to deal with on anything other than OS9 (or older). is there any way to export Mac files to PC format from the Paris side?

kerryg
03-11-2009, 02:46 PM
part of the PAF data might be stored in the resource fork, which is a real pain to deal with on anything other than OS9 (or older). is there any way to export Mac files to PC format from the Paris side?

Problems between Mac and PC- generated pafs are news to me. I've never had the least problem between Mac and PC pafs, going either way, except for making certain filename/extension conventions are observed.

kerryg
03-11-2009, 02:48 PM
Hmm the Peak Pro OS-X generated files actually fail... :( That likely is a libsndfile bug, which would be very difficult for me to try to fix.

Because I grabbed some very old paf files from a disaster recovery, there's a possibility that they could be corrupted in some smaller or larger way (they were what was close at hand).

I'm creating some .pafs using Peak right now and re-sending them, that ought to give us a better picture of the app's role in this.

edited to add: OK, they'll be finished uploading in about half an hour at - http://kerrygalloway.com/PARIS%20resources/PAFS%20FROM%20PEAK.zip

Xenakios
03-11-2009, 02:59 PM
Because I grabbed some very old paf files from a disaster recovery, there's a possibility that they could be corrupted in some smaller or larger way (they were what was close at hand).

I'm creating some .pafs using Peak right now and re-sending them, that ought to give us a better picture of the app's role in this.

Ah right...that could explain a lot. ;) Also another thing could be if they are 24 bit files. The Paris format handles that in an, to put it mildly, obscure way. Please do post some new files.

kerryg
03-11-2009, 03:38 PM
Also another thing could be if they are 24 bit files. The Paris format handles that in an, to put it mildly, obscure way. Please do post some new files.

There are three files in PAFS FROM PEAK.zip; they're .wav files converted into paf. using Peak. The live one is 16-bit 44.1k; the kik and snr PAFS are 24-bit 44.1k.

I seldom use 48k, but I guess we should probably check it as well :D; I'll re-render the same three files at 48k and upload them too.

Xenakios
03-11-2009, 04:26 PM
There are three files in PAFS FROM PEAK.zip; they're .wav files converted into paf. using Peak. The live one is 16-bit 44.1k; the kik and snr PAFS are 24-bit 44.1k.

I seldom use 48k, but I guess we should probably check it as well :D; I'll re-render the same three files at 48k and upload them too.

Now the 16 bit file from PEAK works. The 24 bit ones fail in a way which appears to be an endianness issue. (The sound is loud noise with some faint remnants of the original material.) Are there any Paris generated 24 bit files anywhere?

kerryg
03-11-2009, 05:02 PM
I've put out the call to the PARIS community for it - you might want to check this thread http://kerrygalloway.com/ParisForums/index.php/t/14472/ for uploads in a bit.

I did a Peak file conversion of the previous files into 48k if you still need them - http://kerrygalloway.com/PARIS%20resources/48k%20PAFS%20FROM%20PEAK.zip

By the way - this file conversion hell (including this wacky noise issue) is *not new* to PARIS users, and it will be VERY NICE to finally put an end to it once and for all.

Xenakios
03-11-2009, 05:16 PM
I've put out the call to the PARIS community for it - you might want to check this thread http://kerrygalloway.com/ParisForums/index.php/t/14472/ for uploads in a bit.

I did a Peak file conversion of the previous files into 48k if you still need them - http://kerrygalloway.com/PARIS%20resources/48k%20PAFS%20FROM%20PEAK.zip

By the way - this file conversion hell (including this wacky noise issue) is *not new* to PARIS users, and it will be VERY NICE to finally put an end to it once and for all.

Unfortunately if this is indeed a problem with libsndfile, a fix may take a long time. (Due to various issues relating to sanity and time I can't/won't fix/develop libsndfile myself.)

Erik de Castro Lopo should likely be informed the 24 bit .paf support is possibly broken. But I'd like a confirmation on the matter first, best provided by testing with a file direct from Paris itself.

edit : if I convert from a wav to a 24 bit .paf with libsndfile's convert tool, it appears to work. So libsndfile's own 24 bit implementation is compatible with itself. The question is then if it's broken for both Paris/Peak produced files or just the Peak produced files.

kerryg
03-11-2009, 08:32 PM
edit : if I convert from a wav to a 24 bit .paf with libsndfile's convert tool, it appears to work. So libsndfile's own 24 bit implementation is compatible with itself. The question is then if it's broken for both Paris/Peak produced files or just the Peak produced files.

If that's indeed the problem, then that's not bad news - from our perspective it would be a major and important insight. Obviously if libsndfile was found to have problems with 24-bit paf, then so would everything based on it; fixing that becomes a number one priority for us PARISians. Let's nail that diagnosis down definitively and then I'd take it from there with the developer of libsndfile and get you an update that fixed it.

kerryg
03-11-2009, 11:26 PM
two PARISians have volunteered to create file sets tomorrow, one set generated by PARIS running on a Mac and one set by PARIS running on a PC. Both sets will contain 16 and 24 bit PAFs at both 44.1k and 48k - I'll link the files for you when I have them tomorrow evening

- K

kerryg
03-11-2009, 11:43 PM
I had a look at the .ppj files from the Paris wiki. Good news: They're not encrypted like Pro Tools .pts and .ptf so technically it's possible to parse them. Bad news: It's tedious and time-consuming and takes _LOTS_ of demo files, as dub3000 mentioned earlier in this thread. Therefore it won't be of highest priority for me since there are project file formats that are more common and better documented - erm, well, documented at all.

Heya 404 - thanks much for taking a look at those files, and that's useful information about the encryption. I think the PARIS community understands that the onus is on us to do the legwork to provide the ppj docs if we want to see ppj supported in REAPER; we're on it.

Xenakios
03-12-2009, 06:03 PM
Here's a test build for the impatient of the extension plugin :

http://stash.reaper.fm/2421/libsndfilewrapper.zip

It should work with 16 bit .paf files. (Still waiting here for those Paris produced 24 bit files... ;) ) To install, unzip contents and put the DLL files (libsndfile-1.dll and reaper_libsndfilewrapper.dll) into Program Files/Reaper/Plugins.

(Incidentally, the plugin also enables Reaper to read Sound Designer 2 and Apple Core Audio .caf files. The sd2 support however requires the files to be specially divided into 2 components and it's unclear to me how that exactly can be achieved. At least copying the files with Macdrive from Mac formatted CD-R's won't form the files correctly.)

kerryg
03-12-2009, 08:41 PM
Looking forward to trying it out Saturday - I have Reaper on Mac OSX here, but I'll have to wait to test the extension until my XP box is set back up. I'll make the test files myself at that point if nobody's beaten me to it.

UPDATE: as I was typing this, PARIS user Ted Gerber just beat me to it - you can find a selection of varied pafs here: http://www.brilliantjoe.com/paf_reaper/

(note: the accompanying .ovw files are "Paris overview files" - similar to .reapeaks files. They can be safely ignored unless you're particularly interested in 'em.)

kerryg
03-12-2009, 08:59 PM
by the time I hit "post", PARIS user Aaron Allen notified me that he beat me to the PC version :D. He'll probably send them to me and then I'll serve them and link them here. I might just throw them into the Reaper file vault too for future reference.

Note: Ted's files are Mac OS9 PARIS-generated files, Aaron's are PC Paris-generated. Both cover 16 and 24 bit at 44.1 and 48k (which is all PARIS can do). That should give the full spectrum of PARIS-generated pafs on both platforms.

rickpa
03-13-2009, 02:57 AM
+1 her...and this os for the extra letters needed to post.

Xenakios
03-13-2009, 05:41 AM
The Macintosh Paris produced 24 bit files fail. It'll be interesting to see if the PC Paris ones will work...

kerryg
03-13-2009, 07:08 AM
The Macintosh Paris produced 24 bit files fail. It'll be interesting to see if the PC Paris ones will work...

Xenakios. Thanks again for what you've done here. Bugs like this have blocked us and plagued us for so long now we've just kind of accepted it as "the way it is" - but it *doesn't have to be like that*. If we track this down to libsndfile and we get a fix from the developer, that's a significant game-changer for the PARIS community.

kerryg
03-13-2009, 07:17 AM
PC Paris test files are up at stash.reaper.fm in "latest uploads". I'm off to work now but I'll check in later.

Xenakios
03-13-2009, 11:45 AM
PC Paris test files are up at stash.reaper.fm in "latest uploads". I'm off to work now but I'll check in later.

All the PC originating files work! My code doesn't yet confirm though if there really are 24 bit files in your package, but if there are, the likely conclusion is that libsndfile's code doesn't handle 24 bit Paris audio files that were made on the Mac correctly on Windows/x86.

404NotFound
03-13-2009, 12:15 PM
Some thoughts on these issues:

Maybe it's all about missing metadata.

The Mac file system (HFS) separates metadata and actual file data. If you open a Zip file created with a Mac, you'll see a folder named .DS_Store or something. It contains the HFS metadata of the files you zipped, if any; the metadata files are named ._[name of corresponding data file]. AFAIK libsndfile requires both of them to be in the same directory.

kerryg
03-13-2009, 12:45 PM
we may have a problem with Mac generated 24-bit PAF, potentially an endian issue? Once I have a description of the issue, I'll get on passing it on to the developer of libsndfile immediately.

tedma
03-13-2009, 01:03 PM
Hi folks - Ted Gerber here. I'm very happy to see developments on the Reaper - PARIS compatibility front. Just a note that the audio files I posted were not zipped. They were uploaded as is via DWeaver. Don't know if this is helpful or not, but I thought it might save time looking in the wrong place for a fix.

One other note, PARIS ASIO has always worked fine with other Mac OS 9 apps, like Peak and Waveburner...

Ted

Xenakios
03-13-2009, 01:26 PM
we may have a problem with Mac generated 24-bit PAF, potentially an endian issue? Once I have a description of the issue, I'll get on passing it on to the developer of libsndfile immediately.

Yes, that would seem to be the issue. It could be the endianness issue happens only on Windows and/or x86 CPU, but I can't confirm that. Note that 16 bit .paf files created on the Mac do work.

kerryg
03-13-2009, 02:14 PM
I've notified Erik of that info and given him a link to this thread. He's put out two updates to libsndfile in the last month and a half - Version 1.0.18 (Feb 07 2009) and Version 1.0.19 (Mar 02 2009) - so I'd hope there's a possibility of a quick resolution.

UPDATE: check your inbox

Xenakios
03-15-2009, 06:39 AM
Btw, I've emailed Erik, let's hope he has got the email and that I explained the problem properly to him.

kerryg
03-15-2009, 10:02 AM
OK, the info's now in the pipeline, so I guess we hang on for a bit and find out what he discovers.

dnafe
03-16-2009, 07:19 AM
I'd like to thank all involved for taking on this little venture, trust me I speak for a number of users and it's much appreciated.

Don

kerryg
03-18-2009, 12:38 PM
Just checking in. I'm assuming we're waiting for Erik to get back to us at the moment, but let me know if there's anything further you need in the way of additional files etc.

Xenakios
03-18-2009, 12:55 PM
Just checking in. I'm assuming we're waiting for Erik to get back to us at the moment, but let me know if there's anything further you need in the way of additional files etc.

Haven't heard anything from Erik. Could be that gmail has yet again lost a sent email of mine. :( I'll try resending from another email address.

If Erik ever fixes the issue in his code and posts binary builds for Windows, my plugin even in it's current state should work without modifications, you'd only need to replace the libsndfile.dll.

Just to make sure : 24 bit files *do* appear to work when they come from Paris on Windows. Please test my extension plugin and report if there's some obvious problems.

kerryg
03-18-2009, 05:18 PM
I'm in the last stages of setting up my studio and I should be able to "light up" the PARIS rig tonight; if that goes well, I have time tomorrow to buckle down and do some testing. I'm really looking forward to it - thanks for the very exciting new possibilities you just brought to the PARIS community!

kerryg
03-19-2009, 11:33 AM
+1 her...and this os for the extra letters needed to post.

You should ask for your money back on some of those extra letters :D

Xenakios
03-23-2009, 02:14 PM
I've emailed Erik again, and included 2 of the 24 bit .paf files, where the other works on Windows, the other doesn't. Hopefully he gets the email this time and finds it interesting enough to consider it a bug and to try to fix libsndfile.

By the way, please consider donating him something, he seems very unhappy about releasing binary builds of libsndfile for Windows without some incentive. (And without binary builds of libsndfile this Reaper extension won't get anywhere even if the 24 bit files fix happens...)

edit : Erik replied. He would like a bit more organized and detailed test procedure for all this. I don't think I currently have the energy to deal with all that. I think I did my part in making the Reaper extension wrapper...Sorry, guys... :(

kerryg
03-23-2009, 10:56 PM
thank you for your efforts on our behalf already, they're *most* gratefully received and highly appreciated.

Since your extension's all ready to go when libsndfile is, I'll pursue a fix with Erik. The PARIS app is the app that justifies the existence of PAF files (all other apps that read PAF do so for compatibility with PARIS - no other DAW ever used it). So if one's going to bother reading PAF at all, the first priority must be nailing PARIS-generated PAFs.

kerryg
03-29-2009, 10:36 AM
Finally got my PARIS rig fired up last night (my mobo died in the PARIS comp and I think I just upgraded about four generations in one move :D). After getting PARIS dialled I loaded Reaper, installed the extension and pointed Reaper at some .pafs.

BRILLIANT!

kerryg
04-09-2009, 11:53 AM
Thought I'd update this with some more info. Erik and I have exchanged a series of emails, and he's asked for some specific files to be prepared for further testing. With the help of the PARIS community I assembled the files and sent them off to him today. Now we hang in there and wait to see what Erik discovers.

I put a link at the top of the PARIS Wiki urging donations to libsndfile (and, needless to say, Reaper licenses!).

Xenakios
04-11-2009, 07:51 PM
I've updated the .zip package with a readme.txt crediting Erik de Castro Lopo for libsndfile, nothing else is changed for now :

http://stash.reaper.fm/2597/libsndfilewrapper.zip

kerryg
05-15-2009, 12:40 AM
Erik de Castro Lopo has posted an update of libsndfile at http://www.mega-nerd.com/libsndfile/ - direct download link is http://www.mega-nerd.com/libsndfile/libsndfile-1.0.20-w32-setup.exe

I'll be checking tomorrow to see if the 24-bit PPC PAF issue is fixed...

[looks like libsndfile's 24-bit PPC PAF import is still broken in 1.0.20. I'll post updates as they come in].

kerryg
08-01-2009, 11:44 AM
a user has two PCs, a laptop and a desktop, both running XP, both running Reaper, both with your wrapper and libsndfile properly installed.

Oddly, the extension works (ie PAFS show up) on the laptop - but not the desktop. Even more strangely, Reaper (with wrapper) installed on a USB stick sees PAF on the laptop - but doesn't on the desktop! Any ideas what to pursue here? The desktop is on SP1 and the laptop on SP2 if that makes a difference.

Xenakios
08-01-2009, 02:21 PM
a user has two PCs, a laptop and a desktop, both running XP, both running Reaper, both with your wrapper and libsndfile properly installed.

Oddly, the extension works (ie PAFS show up) on the laptop - but not the desktop. Even more strangely, Reaper (with wrapper) installed on a USB stick sees PAF on the laptop - but doesn't on the desktop! Any ideas what to pursue here? The desktop is on SP1 and the laptop on SP2 if that makes a difference.

Well, I've never tested any of my things with older than XP Sp2...Could be a Visual Studio runtime issue on the Sp1 machine...Microsoft has the Visual Studio C++ runtimes for install somewhere on their pages...

kerryg
08-02-2009, 05:12 PM
This is the sort of thing he's looking for, I'd imagine?

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/259403

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa260978(VS.60).aspx

Xenakios
08-02-2009, 05:24 PM
This is the sort of thing he's looking for, I'd imagine?

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/259403

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa260978(VS.60).aspx

Yes, but should be newer ones...Visual Studio 2005/2008 runtimes, I'd imagine.

Otoh, I think I've built the libsndfile wrapper using static runtimes, so the runtime should not be an issue really. (I can check that though.) In fact I think Reaper would not even start if there was a runtime DLL issue in one of the extension plugins, at least that is the behavior I've experienced. Then again on the other hand the libsndfile wrapper is a bit special in the sense that it's a DLL that loads another DLL...It could be that if the extension fails to load the libsndfile dll, it just silently fails.

kerryg
08-02-2009, 05:46 PM
Something more like this, then?

http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b2da534-3e03-4391-8a4d-074b9f2bc1bf&displaylang=en

Xenakios
08-02-2009, 05:52 PM
Something more like this, then?

http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b2da534-3e03-4391-8a4d-074b9f2bc1bf&displaylang=en

Either that and/or this :

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=200b2fd9-ae1a-4a14-984d-389c36f85647&displaylang=en

Sorry I am unable to be more specific about the issue and possible solution...The Visual Studio runtime issues can get really hairy at times... :(