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View Full Version : MIDI.... Linear, Pattern or both


BurningSG
02-19-2006, 07:46 AM
I'm hoping Reaper will feature both pattern and linear midi modes.
Pattern mode to me, is an excellent way to create drum tracks in midi. One can build up libraries of patterns over time, and possibly trade them on line. I have a VAmp... there are hundreds of presets posted online for download. It would be cool if in time there were libraries of Reaper patterns and such as well.

If anyone is familiar with PowerTab, they also have a large community were they exchange their work.

SG

pipelineaudio
02-19-2006, 10:42 AM
Power tab support would kick ass immensely

fluffy
02-19-2006, 11:57 AM
I always use the piano roll, but obviously, both is better. :)

BurningSG
02-19-2006, 06:19 PM
Piano roll works with pattern as well as linear modes

Yea Tab would be very cool also .... :)

SG

synth
02-19-2006, 07:40 PM
I always use Piano Roll only,but a combination will do even better for the rhythm parts.

I like the MIDI editing/composing to be with similar in features and flexibility as the multitracking with samples is now,but with the simplicity and effectiveness of the FLStudio piano roll.No separate windows will be ever needed for editing and no Playlist and step sequencer views (I find that very bad in FLStudio).Everything should work from one window - the main Reaper window.There should be also a possibility to create empty MIDI items.When copying MIDI items or creating new empty MIDI items with a defined length there should be auto-coloring for them,so every event should have a different color.You should be able to do overlapping like you do with audio tracks(Acid-style).This is a chore in FLStudio with the playlist (I don't like FLStudio because of this).
I find composing "modern" music quickly and easily with this overlapping feature.
Why create a new item and ,when you can re-use a 1/4 of the first part of an old item and overlap it 3 times to repeat it? It's much faster and easier this way :)
Great for remixing and DJ work too.

It should be symphonic composer-friendly (linear composition with possibility of resizing the events later for additional MIDI note input).
You should be able to set the position cursor to a certain point,and start recording MIDI events with your MIDI keyboard after a precount from that position.
Moving MIDI events (notes and chords) should be done audibly,unlike FLStudio.

I don't like strictly fixed pattern length.Every item should be resizeable,and with an optional looping mode when resizing with holding a keyboard key - like the audio tracks now.
When not holding the key and resizing,it will just add an empty area,expanding the item.
Drum/Rhythm part editing will work with a MODIFIED piano roll,with a blend of step sequencing and piano roll editing,something like a cross between FLStudio,Tunafish and a few modifications.

There should be an ability to switch to notation (staff) view and back for only the MIDI tracks,so you can edit the score there,and switch back to piano roll view to also edit it there if you wish.

scum
02-19-2006, 11:47 PM
i prefer linear linear
:)

malcolmj
02-20-2006, 12:32 AM
My vote is for both. Step and linear have different uses.

iago
02-20-2006, 01:06 AM
There should be an ability to switch to notation (staff) view and back for only the MIDI tracks,so you can edit the score there,and switch back to piano roll view to also edit it there if you wish.

I wish Justin would weigh in on this
this is one feature I really wish they had in FL Studio

catscandal
02-20-2006, 02:37 AM
Here is my few cents about what makes great flowing MIDI sequencing:

LINEAR v PATTERN
- I agree that linear and pattern style can be beneficial, why they need to be in seperate editors I don't understand. A drum grid is just a piano roll that loops at a certain point. Put loop markers in a piano roll and set your 'insert note length' and it is a pattern editor.

ONE WINDOW
- The one window concept doesn't need to be lost with the introduction of serious MIDI sequencing. In-line MIDI editing has been a reality for a long time and works particularly well in ProTools. Not sure how good it is in Cubase. It seems pretty crap to me in Tracktion.

QUANTIZATION
- One of the best ways to have fun with MIDI sequencing is using quantization. Swing is essential and other 'shifty' quantization-like effects (including realtime effects that can be applied when recording) can be great fun and produce excellent results. I like to use a combination of recording and sequencing/programming to create drum beats which I then play and record instrumental parts over.

GROOVE QUANTIZE - MIDI
- I am a very big fan of being able to extract timing from something and apply it to something else. My favourite implementation of this is in Muzys which lets you set the grid to a "sequence" i.e. a particular MIDI part. It would be great to drag a MIDI loop onto the 'grid selector' and have it use the timing from that MIDI loop. In Muzys you have to name each MIDI part and then select a MIDI part from the grid selector. The quantize in Muzys then applies the currently selected grid.

GROOVE QUANTIZE - AUDIO
- Another great fun thing to do is extract timing from some audio using peak analysis like in Recycle and then use that timing as a grid. I think it was Cubase where this worked a treat with the ability to quantize audio parts to such a timing grid (would love to see quantizing of audio parts like this in Reaper although it requires a more granular grid that Reaper's current grid). Muzys also does this well although it uses an internal sampler so that an audio file is chopped to keys on the sampler and the sequence is automatically created to play back the loop by playing each key on the sampler based on the timing extracted from the audio file. The sequence thus created can then applied as a grid as described above.

Sorry for the ramble (and I hope it makes sense) but these are features I can't find in any other MIDI sequencer and ComputerMuzys limits me to polyphony of 16, 8 tracks and only 10 plugins at a time which just isn't enough.

catcha
catscandal

Justin
02-20-2006, 02:46 AM
I wish Justin would weigh in on this
this is one feature I really wish they had in FL Studio

I'm still soaking in what people want.. Naturally, the first implementation of any MIDI editing will be incredibly basic...

-Justin

Art Evans
02-20-2006, 02:57 AM
At risk of being way out of step, I really like the way that at present midi is treated like another form of audio. I can play a VSTi like as if I was recording audio from it, and that's it. And if I get it wrong, then just retake the relevant bit. Real playing! No midi editing stuff complicating the interface.

But I admit midi isn't my personal primary concern.

malcolmj
02-20-2006, 03:22 AM
I can play a VSTi like as if I was recording audio from it, and that's it. And if I get it wrong, then just retake the relevant bit. Real playing!

Unfortunately, MIDI robbed me of my "real playing" chops about 20 years ago ;)

BurningSG
02-20-2006, 07:05 AM
Pattern (or drum machine style) is essential for writing drum/rythym midi tracks. With a pattern function the amount of time and data entry is drastically reduced - speeding up the creative flow and therefore adding to the writing process. Eleviating the redundancy of writing linear drum tracks.

Of course, keyboard, bass, ect are very different animals. And lend themselves more to linear writing.... Therefore I'd say both are essential and work together depending on the style and players preference.

Since Justin is open to our suggestions, it makes sense to request a set up that works best and appeals to all - with both pattern and linear all concerns and tastes will be meet. Thereby having a larger user base........

SG

It seems to me many apps focus on the audio end, but fall very short on the midi end. This is were Reaper could really excel - in having midi function as excellent as it's audio will no doubt be ... :)



-

scum
02-20-2006, 07:18 AM
patterns in linear sequencer:
select midi ctrl+c ->pattern1
paste midi ctrl+v ->pattern1 repeats
paste midi ctrl+v; edit ->pattern2
write some new shit -> pattern3
i think it is much easy to edit and change midi in that way, to see the ALL line, not to remember 123248 patterns, organise them, etc etc.
well this is only my way

fluffy
02-20-2006, 07:57 AM
patterns in linear sequencer:
select midi ctrl+c ->pattern1
paste midi ctrl+v ->pattern1 repeats
paste midi ctrl+v; edit ->pattern2
write some new shit -> pattern3
i think it is much easy to edit and change midi in that way, to see the ALL line, not to remember 123248 patterns, organise them, etc etc.
well this is only my way

This is the way I work, as well. Quick and easy. Copy and paste all your parts, then You can go through the whole arrangement and tweak things, change details, etc.

scum
02-20-2006, 08:24 AM
be sure were not inventing nothing:-)

hey dudes look what i found today browsing sourceforge

http://sourceforge.net/projects/mcdaw/

sounds like "i will never drink again!" :-)

BurningSG
02-20-2006, 08:35 AM
patterns in linear sequencer:
select midi ctrl+c ->pattern1
paste midi ctrl+v ->pattern1 repeats
paste midi ctrl+v; edit ->pattern2
write some new shit -> pattern3
i think it is much easy to edit and change midi in that way, to see the ALL line, not to remember 123248 patterns, organise them, etc etc.
well this is only my way




Not sure if I understand exactly what your saying here, please elaborate further.

There's no need to remember 123248 patterns, since they'll be named such as intro, bridge, ect. ... very easy.
As to 'editing', cut & pasting in linear fashion would be very difficult. If you wanted to change the velocity on a note - in
linear you'd have to go in and individually alter, each and every third high hat hit for the length of the song. If your not satisfied you'd then have to revert and run thru the process again until your satisfied - a very tedious inspiration killer.

In pattern you'd only need to alter one or so notes, this would vastly speed up the process and keep the creative flow moving.
Thereby, you could quickly and easily run thru many ideas and variations on the fly, which would only add to the creativity.
The endless and redundant editing, to me, kills a song and turns me off to using a music app.

Of course, you could add a feature that would 'collapse' the
patterns to linear. Or as I suggested having both pattern
and linear, would appeal to all ...

SG

It needn't be one or the other, as both would work well together.

fluffy
02-20-2006, 08:51 AM
If you wanted to change the velocity on a note - in
linear you'd have to go in and individually alter, each and every third high hat hit for the length of the song. If your not satisfied you'd then have to revert and run thru the process again until your satisfied - a very tedious inspiration killer.

Not necessarily. The way Cakewalk does it (that's the sequencer I'm used to) is that You have the option when pasting a phrase of "linking" it to the original, so that when You change the velocity of an event in the original, to use your example, it changes in the copies as well. Any changes in the original are reflected in the copies as well. Very Easy! :)

BurningSG
02-20-2006, 09:08 AM
Not necessarily. The way Cakewalk does it (that's the sequencer I'm used to) is that You have the option when pasting a phrase of "linking" it to the original, so that when You change the velocity of an event in the original, to use your example, it changes in the copies as well. Any changes in the original are reflected in the copies as well. Very Easy! :)


And if you want multiple variations, instead of changing every
event (which is what your describing) how would you go about a main-a, main-b, main-c, bridge-a, bridge-b, ect after your track has been written.
As you describe, you can either change all instances or none.
Or, do it all over again ....

SG

fluffy
02-20-2006, 09:16 AM
That's a really good point.

When You paste in Cakewalk, You also have another option-to paste the copies into the existing clip, or paste as new clips. If You paste the copies as new clips, You can unlink them induvidually.

But, your point is well taken, and is definitely a point in the favor of the idea You express. I guess it's just not how I'm accustomed to working. :) Perhaps if Justin implemnted BOTH, I might eventually migrate that direction. You do make some fine points.

fluffy
02-20-2006, 09:23 AM
Here's a look at the Sonar paste dialog to get an idea of different options. Bear in mind that I still use version 2.2, so it may have changed a little.

http://www.newearthsound.com/sonar_paste_dialog.png

BurningSG
02-20-2006, 10:09 AM
That's a really good point.

your point is well taken, and is definitely a point in the favor of the idea You express. I guess it's just not how I'm accustomed to working. :) Perhaps if Justin implemnted BOTH, I might eventually migrate that direction. You do make some fine points.



I really don't see it as a one or the other situation. I believe they both have their strengths and weaknesses. And work well together. I think above all creative flow and speed of use are essential. I've seen too many times were 'slow' music apps kill inspiration (and the song).

I'd like an app that has the spontaneity of the interaction between say, a guitarist and drummer - instant and fluid. Pattern lends itself to a close approximation of that, as you can quickly swap back and forth between parts.

But, as we all have our preferences... I do believe both would work best. And imho, I'd hate to see if Pattern functionality were left out ........


SG

fluffy
02-20-2006, 10:29 AM
Yeah, I guess "transparency" should be the word of the day.

synth
02-20-2006, 02:49 PM
Yes,quantization and humanize features are essential.

A built-in combination of a gator and arpeggiator is also a must-have.
I miss FLStudio having a good step-based gator.

synth
02-20-2006, 05:24 PM
"be sure were not inventing nothing:-)

hey dudes look what i found today browsing sourceforge

http://sourceforge.net/projects/mcdaw/

sounds like "i will never drink again!" :-)"



But this "DAW" project you mentioned is not even released yet.It's just a proof of concept that's not been realized,just as those suggestions we give for Reaper are now.
At least REAPER is a live,rapidly evolving project that you can actually download and use.
This DAW project is "just on paper".

scum
02-20-2006, 11:59 PM
i said:
"i will never drink again"
i hope this guy too

dont get me wrong;]

catscandal
03-10-2006, 05:46 AM
Hi

just a few more thoughts for if/when you do some work on MIDI editing etc. (mmm with some MIDI fx, maybe the need for editing could be limited)...anyway

I would like to see some really good grooveability. In particular it would be good to have a groove that you could set to change over time, almost like applying a soft of MIDI LFO to the parameters of the groove and/or parameter automation. It would be great to have non-destructive real-time groove rather than applying a quantize. It would also be good to be able to adjust multiple parameters, not just note start, like note length and/or note end and velocity each seperately. It would be good to be able to import grooves and also be good to be able to build your own, perhaps from an existing midi passage (right-click > new groove or something). These are just some thoughts to generate discussion. After lots of searching and some interesting articles I found I am tempted to try and buy an old copy of emagic Logic Audio for these sort of features which seem to be prevelant on Macs but not PCs (at least by the looks of this comparison: http://images.industryclick.com/files/33/SEQUENCERS.pdf, and from the looks of this product: http://www.intuem.com/main/index.html).

Here is an interesting article on some aspects of the topic...

"The track box on the right of the main pattern box gives info on each track: 1-16, but also subgrouped from A-F, giving 96 channels in all. Quantise gives a colossal range of options, from 4s to 798/1536 for super accurate timing. Indeed, the cognoscenti/ honest ones amongst MIDI users will still claim that Atari's timing beats both Macs and PCs hands down even now. Most importantly, all timing is NON-DESTRUCTIVE. All info is stored exactly as you played it, and Notator provides the quantising on screen. It can be changed days, weeks, or months later to anything else you wish.

Next up, time to get groovy with groove templates. Preset ones are 16A-F, 8A-F (which by number crunching will move back progressively the last of each four in 16s, or the second of each two in 8s), for added swing or groove. You can create Status Quo grooves, reggae hi-hats, etc easily. Then there's 4 against 3 (1216), 3 against 2 (8-12), 5, 7 and 9 in a beat! In addition you can set ranges in a track for different quantisation values (say one beat with 5s or 7s-you won't want a whole pattern of those unless you're in psychic communication with Frank Zappa). Free quantisation is related to 16s, but lets you play subtle variations, from rigid to swung, all in the same track. If that's not enough, there's plenty of scope to create your own grooves." from here: http://tamw.atari-users.net/notator.htm

interesting stuff here:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Dec01/articles/logicnotes1201.asp
and here:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Feb02/articles/logicnotes0202.asp

and this...
"The groove extraction and manipulation facilities available within Emagic's Logic Audio are among the most advanced in any sequencing package. Groove templates contain timing, duration and velocity scaling, and can applied as flexibly as any other type of quantisation — in other words, each individual segment of MIDI can have its own quantisation template and in-depth parameters, all of which are interpreted in real time, allowing you to tweak settings during playback." and lots more interesting points from here:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Aug01/articles/groove2.asp


catcha
catscandal

kejkz
03-10-2006, 09:42 AM
Justin, make it as simple as you can and I'm shure we will be happy. Don't bloat it with 100 options 1% of people will use. Simpicity is primal concern when it comes to effective midi editing: everything could be done in one window or even in sequence window; double click to open midi event, simple draging to move events, ctrl move to copy notes, with click and hold up and down changes velocity, left and right changes duration (right) or start time (left). Right button could be used for cutting notes.

-MattmaN-
03-10-2006, 12:17 PM
Yeah what kejkz said.Also groove quantize!woooooooooo :)
I think this app can fill the budget sequencer void Tracktion left when it was bought by Mackie who subsequently more than doubled the cost.

hrwmusic
03-10-2006, 05:49 PM
I'm still soaking in what people want.. Naturally, the first implementation of any MIDI editing will be incredibly basic...

-Justin
could you collaborate with "Jazz"?
probly not, but just a suggestion...

hey, what do people around here think of jazz anyways?

fluffy
03-10-2006, 06:00 PM
could you collaborate with "Jazz"?
probly not, but just a suggestion...

hey, what do people around here think of jazz anyways?

I don't know how difficult that would be, but it's not a bad idea at all, really. Jazz is not bad at all. It's mostly full featured, and is pretty stable. It simply would need refinement. It's open source, but development seems to be pretty much non existant, lately. It's only downfall as it stands now, is that it doesn't have Vst(i) support.

pipelineaudio
03-10-2006, 11:07 PM
Jazz is what you get when you play the same part wrong twice

eidenk
03-11-2006, 09:09 AM
I've just found out I can do some editing on the midi files recorded and saved by Reaper with Midget.

They won't open at all in Jazz and not properly in Modplug Tracker ATM.

They don't play in Media Player and Winamp either.

Midget http://www.silverblade.co.uk/software/midget/midget35.php

Also, if you open/save them with Midget. You can can then play them in Media Player and Winamp and also edit them in Jazz or Modplug.

And then bring'em back into Reaper.

It should keep you busy before Justin finishes to put together his incredibly basic midi editing engine.

shane
03-11-2006, 12:53 PM
Of all the genres to be dissed, around here it's metal and jazz...wtf?!

fluffy
03-11-2006, 02:36 PM
I'm no fan of metal, but I'm a huge jazz fan.

I'm not so sure, however, that he was dissing jazz. I think he was reciting an old blues saying (perhaps he had it confused, perhaps not)-- "If you make a mistake, do it again, make 'em think you meant to do it!"

BurningSG
03-11-2006, 03:44 PM
I'm still soaking in what people want.. Naturally, the first implementation of any MIDI editing will be incredibly basic...

-Justin


Hey Justin, I started this thread awhile ago to get a feel for what
others here thought they would want midi-wise.
Though I'd like to also hear your thoughts on this topic as well ... (?)

SG

synth
03-11-2006, 06:59 PM
I'm no fan of metal either,but I love the sound of good jazz. :)
I do mostly jazz and symphonic stuff,but I sometimes like to "fuse" with rock,funk,electronica and dance.
When I'm in the right mood,I also do some music for commercials,films and even game soundtracks :)

So,everything else,except metal :D

This means,I can't do anything serious without some good MIDI support.

fluffy
03-11-2006, 07:37 PM
So,everything else,except metal :D

:) That's me.

catscandal
03-12-2006, 03:30 AM
Hey Justin

I had a thought after my rambling post about groove quantize. You could simply implement MIDI synchronisation and we could all bugger off to another product for our MIDI sequencing. MTC at least and maybe MIDI clock as well would mean we could use anything for MIDI sequencing (planning on buying Logic Audio 5.5.1 for PC myself) and then route all of our audio into Reaper. As a MIDI head, I actually like using seperate apps for sequencing and recording if one app doesn't do a killer job of both (which I am yet to see).

My thoughts were intended to contribute to that soaking up you are doing and to generate more discussion. Heck, Reaper rocks for Audio and it keeps getting better. MTC could mean that you needn't mess with MIDI editing at all...

Cheers
catscandal

BurningSG
03-12-2006, 06:13 AM
Hey Justin

I had a thought after my rambling post about groove quantize. You could simply implement MIDI synchronisation and we could all bugger off to another product for our MIDI sequencing. MTC at least and maybe MIDI clock as well would mean we could use anything for MIDI sequencing (planning on buying Logic Audio 5.5.1 for PC myself) and then route all of our audio into Reaper. As a MIDI head, I actually like using seperate apps for sequencing and recording if one app doesn't do a killer job of both (which I am yet to see).

My thoughts were intended to contribute to that soaking up you are doing and to generate more discussion. Heck, Reaper rocks for Audio and it keeps getting better. MTC could mean that you needn't mess with MIDI editing at all...

Cheers
catscandal




Scandal,

Since I haven't come across anything midi-wise that I thought
worthwhile, and so far Reaper is kicking butt, I'm hoping Reaper will be it .... I think Justin can pull it off.

I for one am tired of lying down big bucks for bloated apps
that don't deliver.
As far as 'syncing', use your fav midi app, convert to wav. Move it over to Reaper and let her rip .....

SG

MJH
03-12-2006, 09:46 AM
Hey Justin

You could simply implement MIDI synchronisation and we could all bugger off to another product for our MIDI sequencing. catscandal

That's a deal breaker for me. I already synch Vegas to Sonar. Vegas is the BEST audio app. I've seen and Sonar has adequate MIDI functionality, especially Staff/Notation though the rest of it is clunky and non-windows based. Sort of Adobe/Mac, lack or R-click functionality and multi-windows for different actions. I hate that.

For me, I'm hoping Reaper consolidates this especially since Justin grasps Vegas' superior GUI/intuitiveness with both audio and MIDI in one app., otherwise I gain nothing.

I don't need fancy MIDI quantizing, grooving, algorithms, just basic recording and editing functionality, soft synth support (DX/VSTi) preferably with the ability to enter notes with a "note" font on a staff based on the Windows paradigm.

That's my take, FWIW.

BTW. Jazz is king if you're a player.

BTW X2; I've explored Jazz ++, still have it. Tried it around Cakewalk 8 (circa 98?) and occasionally used it for grins later but I'm not in favor of it's behavior though for what it was (MIDI & Audio) and free who could complain but the Master track thing and the... again, lack of intuitivness including, especially, only piano roll which is like a pile of rocks compared to entering notes on a staff, doesn't blow my skirt up ;-)

I usually play drums (first inst.) and keys live recording to MIDI but find it essential to be able to enter notes in staff view for subsequent parts and at a glance (just like reading the written word in English) see what's going on.

MJ

synth
03-12-2006, 02:55 PM
catscandal,if you're into MIDI and accuracy,still nothing beats the "ancient" Atari ST.If you could only sync that with Reaper :)

catscandal
03-13-2006, 01:00 AM
catscandal,if you're into MIDI and accuracy,still nothing beats the "ancient" Atari ST.If you could only sync that with Reaper :)

Nearly bought one on ebay but it came with Cubase not Notator/Creator which have the fancy groove stuff. Still definitely considering the Atari as a MIDI sequencing option, thinking of using one for MIDI sequencing plugged into the PC running soft synths and samplers...yes, synch to Reaper would rock! especially if I could have multiple VSTi's accepting input from discrete sequencer channels so I could run 16 channels of MIDI from the Atari and play all the VSTi's - then record the MIDI to Reaper when I am happy with it, mix it up in reaper and bounce the whole thing down...sounds pretty neat!