Tracks inside folders are quieter (SOLVED)

[DaveS]

Hi

Jusy a little nit pick. Tracks inside foldes are two or three db's (I haven't measured it exactly) lower in volume than tracks not in folders. If I move an audio track into a folder it is quieter. No fx applied to track or folder.

Cheers

[Dstruct]

not here. seems you have pan-law set to a negative value for the folder!

[DaveS]

not here. seems you have pan-law set to a negative value for the folder!

Hi

Thanks for the reply. All my folders are set to the default pan law. None are set to overide the default. I'm using -4.5db BTW and I've tried setting the project pan law to 0db with the same results. It's no problem, but it just seems odd. I've been using Reaper for about two months now and it's been the same on every version.

An example of my current project is set up/routing is like this.

I have a general guitar folder. Inside that folder I have four guitar tracks and two tracks that I have set up as group tracks. The first two guitars go to group one and the second to group two. The master/parent boxes on the guitar tracks are unchecked so that all the audio goes through the groups first.

If I move a guitar track out the folder, delete the send to the group and enable master/parent the output is significantly louder.

Here is a screenshot of the routing

http://davesmithmusic.com/routing.jpg

Cheers
Dave

[Dstruct]

still nothing wrong here. works properly. same levels here. you have three things to check:

1. pan-law
2. insert fx
3. volume envelopes

[Dstruct]

None are set to overide the default. I'm using -4.5db BTW

this is your problem. these pan-laws add up through track-routing.

read: http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8883


imo the best is to set the project-default to 0dB and then only set your (mono)tracks in the folder to the desired value ...

[DaveS]

Hi

Checked those. It's very strange. Happens with all fx removed. Individual track or overall project pan law settings don't cure it and I've looked at all volume envelopes even though I don't have any active in the project at the moment.

I'm going to start a new blank project just in case there is something wrong with the project template I have created. I'll get back later. There's no big deal in just raising the fade levels to compensate though. It's just something that has been bugging me. It's as though the track send levels are lower than the master/parent sends yet I can't find anywhere where this level has been reduced. I have the same thing going on with my drum folder and bass folder.

Cheers

[DaveS]

Hi again

Ok I've cured it. What I have done is left my project pan law set at -4.5db and set the pan law for the folder tracks at 0db. It doesn't make sense but it works. I'll have to update my template for future projects.

Thanks for the help.
Dave

Edit - The group tracks need to be set to 0db pan law too.

[Tallisman]

Hi again

Ok I've cured it. What I have done is left my project pan law set at -4.5db and set the pan law for the folder tracks at 0db. It doesn't make sense but it works. I'll have to update my template for future projects.

Thanks for the help.
Dave

Edit - The group tracks need to be set to 0db pan law too.

sure it makes sense; if you project default pan law is -4.5, then all the tracks, when <c> centered will be at level -4.5 folders included.
So if you are sending a stereo track <c> to the Folder, the you have -4.5 for the track itself, and then -4.5db for the folder.

if you override the folder to 0.0db pan law,
then, in the above scenario, you have -4.5db for the child track, and -0db for the folder (which is 4.5db louder than the above example.

I mad a track preset Called Folder Group Buss which has this override pan law as the default setting.

[xackley]

Is this the way panning laws work in other sequencers or on mixing board?

[DaveS]

Is this the way panning laws work in other sequencers or on mixing board?

Not in Cubase SX3. Route a track output to a group and there is no drop in volume. I understand Tallisman's explanation, but to me this is not how it should work. I use a lot of groups.

For example I double track all harmony vocal parts. If I have three harmonies I double track each harmony and send each pair to an individual group so that I have three grouped pairs for processing. Those groups might then be sent to a master backing vox group which then might be routed to a master vocal group.

With this method I am going to loose 4.5db for every time the tracks are grouped in Reaper. No big deal. From now on I'll I'll change the pan law for folders and groups.

Cheers
Dave

[xackley]

I've used CBase some, and Son*R lots, and I thought that was the way it worked.

i've thought about this, and I think I have to leave project Panning Law at 0db, where all routing works as expected. I think I will use panning laws only on Track that actually move, and need equal power when panning.

I don't think this is Solved, but there are workarounds.

[DaveS]

I've used CBase some, and Son*R lots, and I thought that was the way it worked.

i've thought about this, and I think I have to leave project Panning Law at 0db, where all routing works as expected. I think I will use panning laws only on Track that actually move, and need equal power when panning.

I don't think this is Solved, but there are workarounds.

Well I guess so. I'd prefer it to work in the same way as Cubase etc. I can work with it as it is though.

[user1]

I was just playing around with pan law today and found the same thing. I guess this hasn't been solved in 1.867, and probably should be. It does skew results when changing from one pan law to another where some tracks are in folders.