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keyman_sam
05-19-2007, 01:15 PM
1). Do you know any plugin for free, that quantizes midi input?
2). I found out one called Visual Quantizer, but the DX wrapper does not see it! It doesnt load onto Reaper or EXT by its own because its apparently not a VST plugin.
3). How do i access the JS midi plugins? The plugins in the Jesusonic folder seem to be all audio related.

alex zonder
05-19-2007, 01:26 PM
in the other thread I just suggested you'd try out nicfit's beatsync plug out :)

http://asseca.com/nicfit/index.html

keyman_sam
05-19-2007, 01:40 PM
I did try that one out and it didnt work out for me. There's no label of how you're supposed to set what to what and how to change the resolution, etc. All it has is two bars with no description whatsoever. I was hoping for a more detailed plugin like Cakewalk's quantize MFX.

keyman_sam
05-19-2007, 01:43 PM
i also tried the MFX wrapper with cakewalk's MFX quantize. Reaper simply crashed. The wrapper works in EXT though.

alex zonder
05-19-2007, 01:47 PM
i also tried the MFX wrapper with cakewalk's MFX quantize. Reaper simply crashed. The wrapper works in EXT though.

But if you own eXT why not run it as a VST in REAPER to do the job?

keyman_sam
05-19-2007, 02:06 PM
Too much CPU usage. The reason i'm using reaper vs sonar is how lightweight it is. I'm simply looking for a straight forward Midi VST/DX quantize plugin. With all the junk thats out there for midi, such as randomizers, CC converters and what not, i'd figured SOMEONE would have written a really basic plugin that can do quantize. Looks like I was wrong. Infact, there's even an "un-quantize" plugin which would humanize your tracks based on various inputs, but there's no quantize plugin.

alex zonder
05-19-2007, 02:29 PM
Then my last suggestion would be to try if the wrapper will run fine in REAPER when you load it in Acon's free chainer:

http://www.kaosaudio.com/acon-digital-media-effectchainer-101-pcfree/

Had some successes with that one in REAPER's early days

BTW I don't find the REAPER-eXT 1.4 combo that CPU hungry...

Maybe our own IXix could build a quantize plug? who knows. Might be better than a wrapper-in-a-chainer

schwa
05-19-2007, 02:36 PM
Quantize would be hard in JS because there's no way for the plug to find out where the 1 beat is unless the user always starts the transport from the exact right place. Possible in VST though I think...

Bevosss
05-19-2007, 03:58 PM
Have you tried running it in Console? Not free though sorry.

http://console.jp/en/download.html

xackley
05-19-2007, 04:47 PM
i also tried the MFX wrapper with cakewalk's MFX quantize. Reaper simply crashed. The wrapper works in EXT though.

Just tried it, reaper didn't crash.
But it didn't do anything either.

It didn't quantize when I Applied FX.

Could be the way reaper processes midi. Sonar has a midi buffer that fills well ahead of play. If reaper processes as it plays, then there is no wiggle room for the Quantizer to move notes left and right.

keyman_sam
05-19-2007, 08:07 PM
Hah. Knew I shouldnt get too excited about this. Back to square one. WE NEED TEH INPUT quantize. :yawn:

EnzymeX
05-19-2007, 11:57 PM
I'm using this neat little rewire thingy called Ableton Live for input quantize until Reaper's version is ready.

schwa
05-20-2007, 05:13 AM
Curious ... what's the most basic midi quantization that would be useful? If there were something just snapped all input to the nearest 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, would that be useful, or is it more groove quantization you guys are talking about?

funkster1
05-20-2007, 05:31 AM
Curious ... what's the most basic midi quantization that would be useful? If there were something just snapped all input to the nearest 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, would that be useful, or is it more groove quantization you guys are talking about?
I guess dotted and triplets would be cool as well.
Groove quantisation could always be applied post rec. IMHO, and for this there should be some plugs already.
I mentionned in another thread the "Mfx Script" MIDI scripting plugin which I used in Cubase. It was developed by a MIDI guru who frequented the cubase forum at the time. His website is down, so I guess development has stopped as well. But the version I got could still be made available I guess.It's freeware, so (non-commercial)redistribution should be OK I guess.
Don't know if it works in Reaper though, didn't have the time to test it yet.

Regards
Raphael ;)

keyman_sam
05-20-2007, 11:30 AM
Curious ... what's the most basic midi quantization that would be useful? If there were something just snapped all input to the nearest 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, would that be useful, or is it more groove quantization you guys are talking about?

Yeah, as funkster said, triplets would be very useful too. I'm not asking for groove quantizing because it could be applies AFTER you've done recording the entire basic loop. So, just snapping to grid while recording would be useful, thats all. This is how REASON does its quantizing in realtime.

keyman_sam
05-20-2007, 11:31 AM
I guess dotted and triplets would be cool as well.
Groove quantisation could always be applied post rec. IMHO, and for this there should be some plugs already.
I mentionned in another thread the "Mfx Script" MIDI scripting plugin which I used in Cubase. It was developed by a MIDI guru who frequented the cubase forum at the time. His website is down, so I guess development has stopped as well. But the version I got could still be made available I guess.It's freeware, so (non-commercial)redistribution should be OK I guess.
Don't know if it works in Reaper though, didn't have the time to test it yet.

Regards
Raphael ;)

could you post the link please?

cAPSLOCK
05-20-2007, 03:58 PM
This is a HUGE HUGE HUGE one for me.

As I see it there are three sorts of quantize methods.

There is input quantize, which should not be confused with the other two. This is as far as I know, a destructive process. I know it is highly wanted by lots of folks.

There is the "built into the track control panel" quantize (like you see in Logic) that could be used in an input role or as a nondestructive effect after recording.

And there is the plugin type, which the Sonar users are used to. It's advantages are it is non destructive, could conceivably be used to input quantize, and takes no resources or TCP space for those who do not use it.

I don't really care how it's implemented as long as it is:

1. Non destructive. I want to keep what I play and quantize like a plugin.

2. Comprehensive in terms of binary and ternary divisions (whole, half, quarter, ... triplets etc) Odd division would be a Reaperesque bonus, though maybe rarely useful.

3. Percentage based. I want full control over how much I quantize.

As a bonus, I would also find it useful to be able to quantize to a groove template (a small MID file??) Or quantize to another midi track, or the transients of an audio track.

Anyway... that's how I see it.


cAPSBEG

funkster1
05-20-2007, 10:52 PM
could you post the link please?
Here it is Sam,

http://download.yousendit.com/48D12FCC352AF937

The download link will be available for 7 days or 100 downloads.

Please read the 'README II.txt' textfile in the archive.
It contains some explanations/descriptions for using it.

Cheers
Raphael ;)

scottdru
05-21-2007, 01:13 AM
This is a HUGE HUGE HUGE one for me.

As I see it there are three sorts of quantize methods.

There is input quantize, which should not be confused with the other two. This is as far as I know, a destructive process. I know it is highly wanted by lots of folks.

There is the "built into the track control panel" quantize (like you see in Logic) that could be used in an input role or as a nondestructive effect after recording.

And there is the plugin type, which the Sonar users are used to. It's advantages are it is non destructive, could conceivably be used to input quantize, and takes no resources or TCP space for those who do not use it.

I don't really care how it's implemented as long as it is:

1. Non destructive. I want to keep what I play and quantize like a plugin.

2. Comprehensive in terms of binary and ternary divisions (whole, half, quarter, ... triplets etc) Odd division would be a Reaperesque bonus, though maybe rarely useful.

3. Percentage based. I want full control over how much I quantize.

As a bonus, I would also find it useful to be able to quantize to a groove template (a small MID file??) Or quantize to another midi track, or the transients of an audio track.

Anyway... that's how I see it.


cAPSBEG

Errm . . . +1 to ALL of that!

schwa
05-21-2007, 08:32 AM
Try this VST? (http://stashbox.org/21364/MIDIQuantize.dll) Put it on a track and select "record output (midi)."

If the track already holds a midi recording, I think this will be destructive, or you can route midi from another track to be safe. Technically I think it could even work as input quantize but you wouldn't want to listen to it while recording because of the super high latency required to allow enough buffer to move notes backwards.

I should say I never use midi quantize, so this might not be anything like what you guys want -- if not, sorry! Also stashbox is sometimes weird with dlls so lmk if it doesn't download properly and I'll find somewhere else to stick it.

.. adding, before anyone has the chance to be disappointed, this is really basic. Doesn't handle tempo or time sig changes, etc.

alex zonder
05-21-2007, 01:07 PM
I should say I never use midi quantize

nor did I but now I'll see what use it can be... schwa you're amazing: providing the community with midi input quantize and note namer plugins on one and the same day... great work!

alex zonder
05-22-2007, 10:06 AM
bump!

keyman sam, keyman sam are you there? Read my lips:

schwa ac-tu-al-ly pos-ted a mi-di in-put quan-tize plug for you! :D

keyman_sam
05-22-2007, 11:31 AM
Will try later today. Thanks schwa!! I downloaded the link posted previous by another user, but it has all text files and i dont know how to use those scripts. Will get back later today. I promise. :D

drew
05-22-2007, 01:06 PM
cAPS - I'm with you on the non-destructive quantize.

Incidentally I don't see any reason why input quantize couldn't be non-destructive too since it can be useful to have both the "as-played" and "auto-tidied" versions available.

But here's my worry about the chances of this being implemented any time soonish...

The MIDI data in RPP files pegs timing of each event relative to the previous - with a number representing ticks since the last event, rather than being a number of ticks offset from the item start position.

I imagine the only way quantize could be made non-destructive would be if each event was stored with ticks-from-start values for both original (as played/manually set) and optimised (quantized/automatically set) positions - as it is there's no way to revert (I can't imagine trying to keep an offset from the current position would be very practical in the present way).

Changing the format now may not be something J&C are too keen to consider! :(

jaldridge6
05-22-2007, 04:25 PM
wouldn't it be better to apply quantization after recording...?

drew
05-22-2007, 05:24 PM
I'm pretty sure certain implementations of Input Quantize only do the quantize when you stop recording and others show it on the grid as you're recording. Either way just saying it's probably best to not be destructive IMO!

Bevosss
05-22-2007, 08:11 PM
So what's the quantize we have now? Is it destructive , because the only way to reverse it is the undo history window?

drew
05-22-2007, 08:26 PM
It's destructive, Bevosss, since the original timing values are not preserved aside from in the undo buffer. Here's an explanation for anyone who is unfamiliar with the difference:

With non-destructive you can at any time revert to the original timings for all or selected notes. Particularly useful if you quantize and then later (not immediately) decide that you want to restore the natural as-played feel for any part. For instance a MIDI drum pattern may sound better in general quantized but the fills may have lost something... this may not always be obvious at the moment you have just quantized, so the undo history won't help you if it's destructive. Keeping an unquantized version as a seperate take is the only option right now, but comping in this case is not a very elegant option IMO.

Another often forgotten factor is that you may quantize once but then want to quantize to a different groove or timing - in which case of course you want to start from the original timings and not from an already quantized version! (A bit like changing compression on an audio item.. you'd want to start with unprocessed audio again)

Anything I've missed here, I wonder?

schwa
05-23-2007, 05:00 AM
Anybody get a chance to try out the midi quantize plugin I posted above?

Here's the thing, I think it would be pretty easy to extend this to a groove quantizer. But there would probably be a few rounds of "this part doesn't work the way I wish it did" or "it made my mouse explode" or what have you.

On that topic, can I get some education on midi grooves? Are groove input files simple midi files or are they different? Seems like the most direct way to load a groove would be to sidechain a separate midi input that holds the groove and "learn" it once (because then you can tweak the groove in the midi editor), does that make sense? Or is there a special midi groove file format and people just load them from file?

Thanks.

plush2
05-23-2007, 07:12 AM
schwa, I think grooves are usually a separate file that contains specific groove info (ie. push the beat a bit on 2, pull it a bit on 3) and sometimes contain velocity modifier info as well. I don't know what the standard is as most of my experience with it comes from EnergyXT.

funkster1
05-23-2007, 08:40 AM
I downloaded the link posted previous by another user, but it has all text files and i dont know how to use those scripts...
Hi Sam,

the scripting engine is normally supposed to load as a plugin.dll in your VST host of choice and then apply those scripts as presets. However, since it is based on the mfx engine from cakewalk, it doesn't work in all hosts.
It did work in Cubase, since they have a Mfxwrapper dll which can be put in some folder inside the program folder.
But I haven't succeeded to make it work in Reaper.
Sorry for the trouble I may have caused you. I only wanted to help you.

Cheers
Raphael ;)

Stringer
05-23-2007, 08:54 PM
Wouldn't input quantize turn all of your inspired, emotion-laden, excrutiatingly aesthetic, bordering-on-genius phrasing into robotic rows of happy face notes?

Domo arigato, Mister Roboto, domo, domo . . .

Perhaps "Mister Roboto" would be a good name for the plug.

But then someone will be asking for a "Mister Human" plug to make it sound real again.

John

alex zonder
05-24-2007, 03:40 AM
But then someone will be asking for a "Mister Human" plug to make it sound real again.

John

Tobybear labeled his Humanisator MIDI plug as an "anti-quantizer" :)

http://www.tobybear.de/images/ss_human_s.jpg

http://www.tobybear.de/p_midibag.html

mr. moon
05-24-2007, 05:14 AM
Wouldn't input quantize turn all of your inspired, emotion-laden, excrutiatingly aesthetic, bordering-on-genius phrasing into robotic rows of happy face notes?

John

Modern music no longer requires "talent" or "feeling"

...unless those are VST plugins to fix the mix and polish the turd.

:(

-mr moon

tspring
05-24-2007, 08:12 AM
Wouldn't input quantize turn all of your inspired, emotion-laden, excrutiatingly aesthetic, bordering-on-genius phrasing into robotic rows of happy face notes?


Heh, and then there the unfortunates like myself who think that we have poured forth "inspired, emotion-laden, excrutiatingly aesthetic, bordering-on-genius phrasing" until we listen to recording of it.

Yikes! Bring on the quantizing and happy face notes!

T

Stringer
05-24-2007, 10:53 AM
Yeah, I know, sometimes quantize is good. But to quantize from the get go without even giving yourself a chance to play it right means you will never improve as a player. Or at least it seems like an obstacle.

At any rate, it was fun to imagine the marching rows of robotic happy face notes.

John

sinkmusic
05-24-2007, 10:57 AM
http://www.mondo-exotica.net/magiozal/arquivo/images/2004/kraftwerk_the_man_machine.jpg
http://perso.orange.fr/kraftwerkonline/images/visuels/kraftwerk05.jpg

Gerry G
05-25-2007, 07:21 AM
That is just beautiful.

Have you got one for "CAN"?

sinkmusic
05-25-2007, 07:33 AM
That is just beautiful.

Have you got one for "CAN"?

Do you mean a Jacky Liebezeit plugin ?
?

sinkmusic
05-25-2007, 07:55 AM
Like that ?

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/21729/jakie_midiVST2.jpg

funkster1
05-25-2007, 07:57 AM
That is just beautiful.

Have you got one for "CAN"?
People still know CAN? WOW.
I love them, got almost all Vinyls in some distant past.
Today no more Vinyl, but quite some of their CD's still made it back into my discotheque.Yeah.

Good boy, Gerry, good boy. :D :D

Raphael ;)

jens
06-02-2007, 10:51 AM
Like that ?

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/21729/jakie_midiVST2.jpg

wow - that's hilarious - it isn't even Liebezeit on the photo but Holger Czukay instead (CAN's bass-player)

sinkmusic
06-02-2007, 11:18 AM
ah ah !
it made me laugh a while doing that stuff ;)
I'm glad somebody noticed it :)

(and, errrh, well... i know it isn't Liebezeit, but on that picture Holger was definitively more, well... "graphic"!)

griz lee
06-05-2007, 03:29 PM
People still know CAN? WOW.


CAN is fantastic! Very innovative stuff.

alex zonder
06-05-2007, 03:44 PM
CAN is fantastic! Very innovative stuff.

and Holger Czukay still is... :)

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=148314535

Justin
06-05-2007, 03:55 PM
yeah CAN rules!

got into them after hearing Radiohead cover them...

Gerry G
06-05-2007, 10:00 PM
Great reverse controls.

Is that because 'Sink' water runs the other way in the N Hemisphere or something European? Maybe it is out of 'Sync' or something to do with the fact that 'Sanc" is an anagram of plural 'Can'.

Whoops this is getting perilously close to the edge of rational thought processes.

Jason Brian Merrill
10-16-2007, 01:29 PM
Try this VST? (http://stashbox.org/21364/MIDIQuantize.dll) Put it on a track and select "record output (midi)."

If the track already holds a midi recording, I think this will be destructive, or you can route midi from another track to be safe. Technically I think it could even work as input quantize but you wouldn't want to listen to it while recording because of the super high latency required to allow enough buffer to move notes backwards.

I should say I never use midi quantize, so this might not be anything like what you guys want -- if not, sorry! Also stashbox is sometimes weird with dlls so lmk if it doesn't download properly and I'll find somewhere else to stick it.

.. adding, before anyone has the chance to be disappointed, this is really basic. Doesn't handle tempo or time sig changes, etc.


thanks a bunch schwa, i think i remember this one.

ill try it out asap.

PitchSlap
01-26-2008, 04:52 PM
Try this VST? (http://stashbox.org/21364/MIDIQuantize.dll) Put it on a track and select "record output (midi)."

If the track already holds a midi recording, I think this will be destructive, or you can route midi from another track to be safe. Technically I think it could even work as input quantize but you wouldn't want to listen to it while recording because of the super high latency required to allow enough buffer to move notes backwards.

I should say I never use midi quantize, so this might not be anything like what you guys want -- if not, sorry! Also stashbox is sometimes weird with dlls so lmk if it doesn't download properly and I'll find somewhere else to stick it.

.. adding, before anyone has the chance to be disappointed, this is really basic. Doesn't handle tempo or time sig changes, etc.

Can I use this as an insert? I don't want to alter the file but just tighten it up and tweak the settings while playing back.

Basically I'm just looking for a replacement for the Cubase quantize plugin:

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/19537/quantizezf6.gif

schwa
01-26-2008, 04:54 PM
Can I use this as an insert? I don't want to alter the file but just tighten it up and tweak the settings while playing back.

I'd say don't use it at all, it was just a quick thing I whipped up back when this thread was fresh and young. The quantize options in Reaper are much further along then they were then.

PitchSlap
01-26-2008, 05:56 PM
^Fair enough. If it worked as an insert, I'd use it all the time.

It seems impossible to find a simple VST, MFX or JS quantize plugin. :(

Here's the advantage of a plugin:

While the Quantize function on the MIDI menu applies the timing change to the actual notes on a track, the Quantizer effect allows you to apply quantizing "on the fly", changing the timing of the notes in real time. This makes it easier to try out different settings when creating grooves and rhythms.

I use MIDI primarily and currently the quantize function in Reaper is only available from the MIDI editor. With a plugin, I could put it on the MIDI tracks as part of my template and after tweaking the settings "on the fly" it takes a split second to copy the plugin to other channels. Another advantage is that I don't have to open the MIDI editor to quantize. It can be a real PITA if you use it alot.

drew
01-26-2008, 06:24 PM
Hey PitchSlap.

I'm interested in knowing other peoples' workflows and I do agree with what you are saying about having to go into the MIDI editor each time to quantize, but I still find it difficult to imagine the benefit of a plug-in for this if it doesn't re-position the notes on the grid.

Remember these days note quantize in REAPER is performed relative to the *original* position of the notes.. so if you go from 1/16 to 1/12 timing to set up triplets it will still be using the original note positions as a starting reference and then unquantizing all or selected notes can reveal those original timings.

It's not the old case of having to "undo" to remove quantize values now - setting the quantize type and moving the strength & swing sliders in the MIDI quantize window shift the selected notes in realtime.

That way you get the benefit of a "what you see is what you get" view of your MIDI items and the flexibility of unquantizing or using a manually set position when you want to.

Now.. you may know all of this! So if the issue is simply that this is not possible from the main window then I'm with you all the way - I'd love to be able to call the note quantize dialog and the "quantize using last settings" action directly from the main window and that was probably my very first Feature Request having come from Cubase.


Finally.. slightly different point for anyone that doesn't know about Input Quantize (since this thread may have started before it was around!)

You can set up non-destructive input quantize by right-clicking on the record button, record monitoring/mode buttons or the meter and going to Track Recording Settings. You can then unquantize all or any of your MIDI recording in the editor.

Cheers

drew

PitchSlap
01-27-2008, 04:37 PM
So if the issue is simply that this is not possible from the main window then I'm with you all the way - I'd love to be able to call the note quantize dialog and the "quantize using last settings" action directly from the main window and that was probably my very first Feature Request having come from Cubase.

I think it was my first feature request too :)
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16756

In Cubase/Nuendo its easy to quantize on the fly, because you just hit q and the item will be quantized to the value set on the main page. If its wrong, its easy to undo. With Reaper, I have to open the MIDI editor, use a dialog and I find it comparatively cumbersome to preview the results.

Having quantize available from the main page would solve this :)