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-   -   Automation item pre-release thread (https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=186608)

schwa 01-18-2017 08:08 PM

Automation item pre-release thread
 
Have at it.


Please note that this is a fairly major code change and will take a number of cycles to get right. I would be surprised if automation items made it into a release build within less than a month.

Xenakios 01-18-2017 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa (Post 1787989)
Have at it.


Please note that this is a fairly major code change and will take a number of cycles to get right. I would be surprised if automation items made it into a release build within less than a month.

Would you mind revealing a bit about how it is internally implemented? :) (This is a thing I once tried implementing myself into an app of mine and it turned into a mess I didn't want to release to the public in the end...)

Xenakios 01-18-2017 08:47 PM

Not working for master track envelopes, it seems. Hopefully that is not by design and support can be added!

Xenakios 01-18-2017 09:05 PM

Unless I failed to search with the right words, the action list seems kind of empty of actions relating to the automation items.

nofish 01-18-2017 09:15 PM

Currently there's no indication if an automation item is pooled, is there ?
I think that would be useful.

edit:
I mean apart from the same name, should be more obvious imo, so you can tell from an item on its own, like with an icon as for pooled MIDI items or so.

lachrimae 01-18-2017 09:32 PM

If you right-drag select multiple AI's, you can't DEL them unless you drag them somewhere with left mouse-button first (which seems to put focus on them so that the DEL key works).

Shift-select then DEL works because it utilizes left mouse button.

Edit:
Ctrl-select works as expected (selects additional AI's one at a time).
Shift-select mimics Ctrl-select behavior instead of selecting across the range from first selected to last selected item.

lachrimae 01-18-2017 10:17 PM

Strange behavior on this one but it can be reproduced:

Draw AI 1 and 2 on a track
On a second track, draw AI 3 and 4, then undo #4.
The name of #3 will disappear when you undo #4.

Now, select AI #2 on the first track (just to deselect #3 and show that what happens below isn't related).
Try to draw AI #4 again. It will draw a copy of AI #3 instead.

I'll provide a gif if needed.

airon 01-18-2017 11:43 PM

Just five minutes in, I'm getting it and using it well.

Suggestions for
Mouse Modifier context
Double-Click for automation item

Currently the double-click on the automation item non-edge handle opens up the naming dialogue window, but has no context in the mouse modifiers yet.

Thing we add to this context could be(similar to track items):
  • Set time selection to automation item
    (this is the one I am primarily after, since it allows me to loop playback as I tinker with the LFO tool)
  • LFO for selected automation item
  • Rename item
  • Delete item
  • Delete item, preserve points
  • Add edge points
  • Duplicate and pool item
  • Un-pool item
  • Save item to disk
All the one-shot stuff that does not require the highest precision.


LFO tool presets
May sound weird now, but we have a bunch of sliders and it's likely going to get more complicated. I'm already loving it.

As for the StuffMIDIMessage, GetNumMIDIOutputs and GetMIDIOutputName API calls, I'll raise my hand when I'm at my wits end. Tinkering with that now. Thanks again.

vanhaze 01-19-2017 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa (Post 1787989)
Have at it.


Please note that this is a fairly major code change and will take a number of cycles to get right. I would be surprised if automation items made it into a release build within less than a month.

Say Whaaat ?
OOH Yes !!!!

cjaxis 01-19-2017 01:17 AM

please, please make coloring possibilities like on regular tracks *pray*

musicbynumbers 01-19-2017 01:33 AM

Totally agree with airon about a double click mouse modifiers options.

That way we can set them up like we have normal items behave. (alt double click to delete etc etc)

EvilDragon 01-19-2017 01:34 AM

Yes, definitely need more mouse modifier love...

musicbynumbers 01-19-2017 01:37 AM

LFO
 
Tick box to enable one of two things near the rate setting.

1. Shows both a start and end frequency slider (instead of the one frequency slider)

2. Shows a graphic envelope in a box so we can draw in rate over time. (see any of the lfo generator scripts for an example)

This will massively expand the use of the lfo feature.

musicbynumbers 01-19-2017 02:12 AM

Will automation items be compatible with sws snapshots and previous scripts?
 
I'm going to try asap but wanted to get the "bitter sweet" conversation on the table.;)

Im guessing sws snapshots grabs the automation "chunk" right? to save automation so maybe it will still be ok?

There's also a few scripts that allow you to save whole track states as recallable presets (Sexan made a great one) but these tend to ignore automation envelopes and just work on normal items.

With this in mind and the fact that "automation items" are kind of both a envelope and an item..

.. Will these 2 systems now be broken?

Or will they be "blind" to the additional chunk information that is contained within automation items (hopefully)? :)

Will test but it thought its something to discuss/ask.

Sexan 01-19-2017 03:33 AM

FR: It would be cool if we could have double click modifier on automation items to select all points in them or right click option "select all points in item"

also could action "Envelope:Create Automation Item" work without the need of focusing envelope lane?

Mercado_Negro 01-19-2017 04:05 AM

I'll post this again here but using what I think are better examples.

Case 1: Copy/Paste Automation Items

If we have this scenario:

https://i.imgur.com/LygPDvc.png

and then we copy/paste automation item 1 right in the middle of that we get this:

https://i.imgur.com/9zKOL0V.png

Expected: if the option "add edge points when moving automation items" is enabled it should preserve the automation that's before and after the pasted automation item.



Case 2: LFO manipulation

If we have this scenario:

https://i.imgur.com/ONMVrsh.png

and we create an automation item rigth in the middle and bring up the LFO window to manipulate the envelope, we get this:

https://i.imgur.com/N4za7VV.png

Expected: if the option "add edge points when moving automation items" is enabled it should preserve the automation that's before and after the pasted automation item like this:

https://i.imgur.com/PcsIAN9.png

Mercado_Negro 01-19-2017 04:13 AM

It's also the same thing when inserting automation item from disk: they should be inserted with points at their edges if the option "add edge points when moving automation items" is enabled to preserve everything before and after.

musicbynumbers 01-19-2017 04:33 AM

Grouping: including automation items in groups?
 
Automation items solve a long standing issue with automating effects when the audio items have large gaps between automation.

This makes copying them erratic.

Being able to "group" a automation item with the items basically makes the whole lot into a "container" so that copying and moving retains all automation data.

This would be super useful. :) thanks.

gpunk_w 01-19-2017 04:45 AM

Loop option.
Reverse option.
Alt drag is already there (Buggy but reported already) but options for 1/2 and 2x are extremely useful too.
Should be able to be sent to any location, you should not need to copy/paste automation items to other tracks, they should be routable ala any other sort of track, if this is not possible then it should at least be able to sent to multiple locations within the same plugin on its own track.
Automation items should have bounds, while the little bar at the bottom is great, an automation items points should remain within the items bounds, so dragging any where on the edge should change length, not add points, same with stretching, visually a line all around the item matching the little bar at the bottom would be perfect, a true encapsulated item.
There should be no automation drawn between automation items (Value should be unset) possible option for a faded line, but really is not needed.

I will return with more

strachupl 01-19-2017 05:01 AM

Hello. Thank you very much for Automation items. Here are some bugs. v5.33pre1

https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2RV...auQ/source.gif

BUG no.1 Deleting items
1. draw few a.items
2. select them
3. press delete
RESULT: some items are deleted and some not but they stay selected.

BUG no.2 A.Items disappear and appear when drawing other new A.items
1. Draw A.Item, make for example LFO in it.
2. Drag edge to 0 like from left to totaly right and A.item is not visible.
3. Try to draw new a.item staring on previous hidden a.item. Nothing happen.
4. Try second time step 3 and a.item appear with length of previous tried to draw a.item
5. When try to draw next a.items in that lane strange things will happen.

My english isnt so good to describe it proper, if that doesnt make sense here is a GIF

https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2RV...auQ/source.gif

v5.33pre2
# Automation items: prevent resizing to zero length
still BUG no.2
https://media.giphy.com/media/26xBIo...Jok/source.gif

my grid settings, maybe it will help
https://s30.postimg.org/5hvux7935/Screenshot_1.png

EvilDragon 01-19-2017 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w (Post 1788158)
an automation items points should remain within the items bounds, so dragging any where on the edge should change length, not add points,

This is why you have two mouse modifiers on automation item left drag. One just extends the item (deleting points that are outside), the other adds those points into the item (collect).

mccrabney 01-19-2017 07:21 AM

automation items may be an opportunity to solve a longstanding issue i've had with REAPER's envelopes vs MIDI learn controls. this ties into what gpunk has said elsewhere. i will try to be clear and succinct, correct me if/when i'm under-informed.

issue:
1- learn a CC to a VSTi parameter.
2- enable envelope for the same VSTi parameter.
3- issue: since the envelope exists for the length of the project, the MIDI CC is now ineffective while in READ mode. control changes do not control the parameter until the envelope is cleared.
4- desired behavior: keep the entire envelope inside the automation item. in between automation items, leave param at last envelope point value, and then behave as if the envelope does not exist. while the play cursor is inside the automation item bounds, the envelope takes precedence over the midi CC.

graphical explanation:

current behavior:
https://i.imgur.com/Zw1odx7.png

desired behavior:
https://i.imgur.com/vfHXvbq.png

another possible explanation: i want track envelopes to be able to behave more like item envelopes.

any comments or tips are much appreciated.

vitalker 01-19-2017 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mccrabney (Post 1788230)
automation...

Can't you just enable copying edge points within item? It'll solve one of two your problems without doing nothing else.

Sexan 01-19-2017 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mccrabney (Post 1788230)
4- desired behavior: keep the entire envelope inside the automation item. in between automation items, leave param at last envelope point value, and then behave as if the envelope does not exist.

I really hope to get something like this or "hide automation outside Automation Items" option to get little clearer view on the envelope lane.

btw bug or something :
When envelope is shown in media lane, automation items cannot be created

musicbynumbers 01-19-2017 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sexan (Post 1788244)
I really hope to get something like this or "hide automation outside Automation Items" option to get little clearer view on the envelope lane.

btw bug or something :
When envelope is shown in media lane, automation items cannot be created

Agreed in keeping things clean visually :)

Also, I can confirm that bug about media lanes not being able to create automation items.

Sexan 01-19-2017 07:58 AM

Maybe even better but this is only dreaming (much more complicated) because current implementation is based IN envelope lane:
Switch the position of the automation item lane (or add one more) from envelope to media lane,this way when the automation item is created it only shows the that part of envelope lane on media lane.

But IMHO it would be cool to have some indication on media lane that automation item is beneath (regardles of this above).

and btw how can I copy item or only part of it WITHOUT automation item ? Maybe a modifier for media item "copy ignoring automation" (I know for global option "move envelope with item" but something that I dont need to toggle all the time)?

mccrabney 01-19-2017 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitalker (Post 1788237)
Can't you just enable copying edge points within item? It'll solve one of two your problems without doing nothing else.

maybe i'm missing something in mouse modifiers, but edge points doesn't prevent this ramp from being create in between this automation item and its subsequent copy. i used the time selection to highlight what i'm talking about.

https://i.imgur.com/Jye9TbQ.gif

desired behavior: nothing should change in the envelope between automation item 1 and 2. ideally, the envelope wouldn't even exist in that zone. as option, etc.

Quote:

Agreed in keeping things clean visually
exactly. i sometimes have tracks where the envelope is only used at the very beginning, to automate volume and bring in the media item from silence. i'm then stuck with a subsequent volume envelope that is active through the rest of the song unless i hide the envelope. best of both worlds would be for the envelope to be only visible where it is active, and only active where it is visible.

cool mockup, ovnis.

Sexan 01-19-2017 08:13 AM

that happens only if you move or copy automation item, if you move media item along with automation item that does not happen, so probably a bug

ovnis 01-19-2017 08:16 AM

Quote:

I really hope to get something like this or "hide automation outside Automation Items" option to get little clearer view on the envelope lane.
Good idea. Or create under each item, automation item and leave blank, or with dashed or more transparent (my favorite choice) line between automation item. :)


https://stash.reaper.fm/29570/finale.jpg

mccrabney 01-19-2017 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sexan (Post 1788263)
Did you check add edge points on moving automation items?

thanks, yes. if you have a hi-to-lo saw ramp envelope shape contained in an automation item and you copy it further down the arrange view, the envelope in the in-between moves from the low end of ramp A to the high end of ramp B.

EvilDragon 01-19-2017 08:18 AM

Add edge points for automation items is currently buggy.

Sexan 01-19-2017 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mccrabney (Post 1788269)
thanks, yes. if you have a hi-to-lo saw ramp envelope shape contained in an automation item and you copy it further down the arrange view, the envelope in the in-between moves from the low end of ramp A to the high end of ramp B.

I've edited my post,go check

gunny 01-19-2017 08:39 AM

Hotkey for splitting
 
By the way, it would be nice for consistency if we could use the key "s" (split item) for automation items too...

mccrabney 01-19-2017 08:45 AM

FR: guidelines when moving automation items, just like when moving envelope points, media, and midi items.

vitalker 01-19-2017 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mccrabney (Post 1788260)
maybe i'm missing...

Oh, sorry, I was wrong - it will behave as on your video.

OPI 01-19-2017 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwa (Post 1787989)
Have at it.


Please note that this is a fairly major code change and will take a number of cycles to get right. I would be surprised if automation items made it into a release build within less than a month.



Omg...

gpunk_w 01-19-2017 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilDragon (Post 1788205)
This is why you have two mouse modifiers on automation item left drag. One just extends the item (deleting points that are outside), the other adds those points into the item (collect).

What ?
Left drag only works on the bar at the bottom here, so either it is broken on my install, or you are talking about something entirely different.

Edit*
You cut off half of the quote and then give spurious information based on the out of context quote, please do not do it again, it is not useful to anybody, very strange behaviour.

EvilDragon 01-19-2017 09:52 AM

Yes I am talking about the bar on the bottom, as the mouse modifiers only apply to that part of the envelope lane! Currently the only way to extend the automation items is via that part, from what I can see.


I can quote however I see fit, thank you very much!

Argitoth 01-19-2017 09:57 AM

I think it's simple, it seems like everyone wants automation items to act like ITEMS! Think about it. If you have two audio items, do you get a huge DC offset as the last audio sample linear-interpolates to the next audio sample? lol... no.

automation items SHOULD NOT NEED EDGE POINTS!

Edit: this would make automation items less flexible, but it would make them more straightforward to use. This is how I imagine it would work: IF you have an auto-item ontop of the auto-lane, use auto-lane for automation until you hit an auto-item (playback-wise). The auto-item completely obscures/overlaps the auto-lane. No interaction between auto-item and auto-lane, no interpolations between them. Completely different entities on the same visual space.

Edit: Another way to think of it is this: The auto-lane is ("unknown to the user") just a giant auto-item. Now when you make a new auto-item, you have have auto-items on top of the background auto-item. You could remove the old automation system completely this way, and no one would be the wiser.

Edit: Hmm... what if there was a switch "interpolate between auto-items"? There should be no interpolation within the actual auto-item area.

EvilDragon 01-19-2017 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argitoth (Post 1788341)
automation items SHOULD NOT NEED EDGE POINTS!

Yes but since they are tacked onto the current envelope system, they kinda do. :)


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