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-   -   tempo markers again (https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=113350)

TheWhistler 11-14-2012 01:57 PM

tempo markers again
 
Hi, I wanted to remove the first 8 needles bars of a song.

https://i.imgur.com/NwCpg.jpg?1

The time selection is 8 bars exactly.

I have lots of tempo markers in that peace because I need to align freely played music for transcribing.
The markers are on every 1 of a bar to match the tempo.

https://i.imgur.com/vExkH.jpg?1

As you can see. Region 2 1.Verse and the related tempo marker are exactly at 25.1.00.

Then I remove the first 8 bars within the time selection using this action: "time selection: Remove contents of time selection (moving later items).

https://i.imgur.com/9ppTd.jpg?1

As you can clearly see, the result is not like intended. When removing 8 bars, I want to see the marker to be placed on 17.1.00. Because 25 - 8 = 17.
It is on 16.4.944898 ?????:confused:

Do I use the wrong action, canīt believe that. Most likely there is (still) a bug in the way this actions moves the tempo markers.
Or canīt I expect them to stay in there relative positions when removing unwanted bars?

I am using Win7 64 and REAPER 64.

Would be nice if someone could confirm, thanks.

gofer 11-14-2012 03:11 PM

It is v4.30, right?

I have a song mapped by tempo markers on every beat, so there is really a whole lot of them with the oddest tempo values. As far as I can see "Remove contents of time selection (moving later items)" gives me the expected result, although it's a bit hard to verify because the ruler is behaving a bit odd displaying many [nn.n.98] values where there should be [nn.(n+1).00]. I have to zoom further in than I'd like to see round measures on the ruler... But (assuming none of them slipped past my judgment), other than yours my tempo markers are all exactly where they should be.

Shouldn't there be a view showing tempo markers and/or time sig markers in a list? Similar to the region/marker manager? Surely would have helped me verifying the positions (as would a better ruler display behavior).


I think, the best would be to upload the problem project saved at the state before the measures get deleted. Without audio - actually I think you could even delete the tracks. Of interest for troubleshooting will probably be mostly the tempo map, the time selection and the project settings.
I suspect a rounding error case, it will be good to give the devs some concrete numbers to crunch, I guess :)




On a side note: Trying this I noticed that the time selection display in the transport was not behaving well. I had a proper readout before triggering the remove contents command [1.1.00], [9.1.00], [8.1.00]. I expect that after the remove contents function I'd get a time selection length of zero, as the time selection gets removed together with its content. Instead what I got was a readout for a zombie selection: [1.1.00], [9.1.01], [8.0.01] (also note the weird .01 values).

witti 11-14-2012 03:27 PM

A gif says more than thousands words.

Reaper 4.30, using the action "Remove contents of time selection (moving later items)"

https://stash.reaper.fm/14553/remove%...0selection.gif

Edit:
Timebase for items/envelopes/markers: Beats(position,length,rate)
Timebase for tempo/time signature envelope: Beats

gofer 11-14-2012 04:03 PM

Dang! I tried to reproduce (using your positions and values as good as I can tell from your capture). Here is what's happening on this end (XP32 SP3):

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/...selcontent.gif

Looks ok here.

Maybe there is some setting messing with it? What are your timebase settings for tempo/time signature?
I still think it's best to upload a project saved in a situation that you know goes wrong (before applying remove contents) to look at some definite numbers.

witti 11-14-2012 04:22 PM

This little example project was saved with v4.21 but opened with the new 4.30 version.

I made a completely new one with v4.30.

Seems that everything is working fine now !

(At least with this very simple example.)

Sorry, didn't want to shock anyone !

gofer 11-14-2012 04:51 PM

Don't worry :). It led to a bit of intelligence here.


If you look at the end of my capture, the edit cursor snaps weird when I click on the marker. Actually I have a doubled grid line there. Plus, when I opened the tempo lane on the master track, I saw that the marker - although it reports to be spot on - actually is a tad (less than a sample, actually) in front of the bar. I found out that the setting "Snap to project sample rate" in the snap/grid setting caused that.

@ Whistler:
Can you please look into snap/grid settings for "snap to project sample rate"? And, should it be enabled, give it another shot with sample rate snapping disabled?

TheWhistler 11-14-2012 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gofer (Post 1068917)
Don't worry :). It led to a bit of intelligence here.


If you look at the end of my capture, the edit cursor snaps weird when I click on the marker. Actually I have a doubled grid line there. Plus, when I opened the tempo lane on the master track, I saw that the marker - although it reports to be spot on - actually is a tad (less than a sample, actually) in front of the bar. I found out that the setting "Snap to project sample rate" in the snap/grid setting caused that.

@ Whistler:
Can you please look into snap/grid settings for "snap to project sample rate"? And, should it be enabled, give it another shot with sample rate snapping disabled?

Iīll do that tonite. Would be superb if it would just be a click in the preferences. Thanks Gofer

TheWhistler 11-14-2012 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gofer (Post 1068825)
It is v4.30, right?



Shouldn't there be a view showing tempo markers and/or time sig markers in a list? Similar to the region/marker manager? Surely would have helped me verifying the positions (as would a better ruler display behavior).

It is 4.30 and yes sir, a better ruler behavior would be much appreciated.


Quote:

Originally Posted by gofer (Post 1068825)
I think, the best would be to upload the problem project saved at the state before the measures get deleted. Without audio - actually I think you could even delete the tracks. Of interest for troubleshooting will probably be mostly the tempo map, the time selection and the project settings.
I suspect a rounding error case, it will be good to give the devs some concrete numbers to crunch, I guess :)

Where shall I upload it to?




Quote:

Originally Posted by gofer (Post 1068825)
On a side note: Trying this I noticed that the time selection display in the transport was not behaving well. I had a proper readout before triggering the remove contents command [1.1.00], [9.1.00], [8.1.00]. I expect that after the remove contents function I'd get a time selection length of zero, as the time selection gets removed together with its content. Instead what I got was a readout for a zombie selection: [1.1.00], [9.1.01], [8.0.01] (also note the weird .01 values).

I will check the time selection if properly set up.

gofer 11-15-2012 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWhistler (Post 1069154)
Where shall I upload it to?

Right here. When you post a reply you find a "manage attachment" button below the main text input field. It allows to directly upload *rpp files up to a certain size.

TheWhistler 11-15-2012 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gofer (Post 1069218)
Right here. When you post a reply you find a "manage attachment" button below the main text input field. It allows to directly upload *rpp files up to a certain size.

So, here you are. I deleted everything else (Tracks etc.) just the tempo markers are left.
The first 8 bars are selceted and should be deleted.

http://forum.cockos.com/attachment.p...1&d=1353007855

TheWhistler 11-15-2012 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gofer (Post 1068917)
Don't worry :). It led to a bit of intelligence here.


If you look at the end of my capture, the edit cursor snaps weird when I click on the marker. Actually I have a doubled grid line there. Plus, when I opened the tempo lane on the master track, I saw that the marker - although it reports to be spot on - actually is a tad (less than a sample, actually) in front of the bar. I found out that the setting "Snap to project sample rate" in the snap/grid setting caused that.

@ Whistler:
Can you please look into snap/grid settings for "snap to project sample rate"? And, should it be enabled, give it another shot with sample rate snapping disabled?

I have tried that. Initially, as you suggested, I had it turned off - doesenīt work, same result weird tempo markers.
I turned it on (just for the sake of it) and it seems to get even worse.
My timebase is beats only because that is the only way to keep items "locked" to "their" bar when removing single markers.

TheWhistler 11-15-2012 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by witti (Post 1068888)
This little example project was saved with v4.21 but opened with the new 4.30 version.

I made a completely new one with v4.30.

Seems that everything is working fine now !

(At least with this very simple example.)

Sorry, didn't want to shock anyone !

Doesnīt shock me at all. Maybe it is because I use a lot of really "odd" tempo markers. It is because I want to match the tempo of a free-tempo recording.

mwe 11-15-2012 03:13 PM

What is the tempo value of your first marker after you remove the time selection? When I run it on 4.30 that marker is changed to the project tempo value instead of the value of the marker that was at measure 9. If you go into project settings and change the project tempo to the same value as the marker at measure 9 and then remove the time selection, everything seems to come out right. Seems like a bug to me.

Breeder 11-15-2012 03:18 PM

Just to confirm, in numerous instances I too noticed (tinny, but still observable) rounding errors in regards to tempo markers and their musical position (yes, I have snapping to sample rate turned off).

And yes, ruler can get pretty wonky with a lot of tempo changes, drives me nuts! Hope it gets fixed.

mwe 11-15-2012 06:22 PM

I decided to play around with this a bit and I'm kind of sorry I did. Here's what I think is happening.
The time selection runs from 0 to 14.97327555821019 secs on the timeline.

The 'Intro' region runs from 14.97327555820975 to 45.32796373675119 secs and is 30.35468817854144 sec long.

The two overlap by 0.00000000000044 sec. The tempo marker at measure 9 is at 14.97327555821 seconds and is in this overlap area. When the time selection is deleted it encroaches into the 'Intro' region, zaps the marker and shortens the region to 30.35468817854100 secs (our 0.00000000000044 second overlap).

I will now join you in dining on my brain but I suspect I'm going to walk away hungry.

gofer 11-16-2012 02:11 AM

Thanks, mwe for your detective work. I confirm your findings and think you spotted the gist of the issue.

So we seem to be looking at some error with snapping the time selection here. The position the tempo marker snapped to (and calls it 9.1.00) is not exactly where the time selection thinks 9.1.00 is at.

Hope the devs can make something out of it. I think it will be best to open an issue about it in the Issue Tracker.


Instead of eating your brain, rather give it a candy :).

musicbynumbers 11-16-2012 02:40 AM

I'm sure I saw a preference or project setting to snap tempo changes to bars?

Would that not help or did I miss the point? ;)

gofer 11-16-2012 03:00 AM

I thought I remember such an option as well, but couldn't find it. But it seems if there is such a thing I have it enabled.

I took the offending tempo marker from the problem project, moved it (it snapped to 8.3) and then snapped it back to 9.1. It didn't help, the marker snapped to the exact same time position 14.973...8210 again.

A detail that is puzzling me:

In the *rpp file the time selection's time position value consists of two more digits than the position of the tempo envelope points.

a) = Time sel end position, b) = tempo point:

a)14.97327555821019
b)14.973275558210

Isn't that looking for trouble?

TheWhistler 11-16-2012 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwe (Post 1069705)
What is the tempo value of your first marker after you remove the time selection? When I run it on 4.30 that marker is changed to the project tempo value instead of the value of the marker that was at measure 9. If you go into project settings and change the project tempo to the same value as the marker at measure 9 and then remove the time selection, everything seems to come out right. Seems like a bug to me.

Then there would be a workaround. Just changing the tempo of the first marker manually to what it is intended to be instead of the overall tempo.
But that is not a good behavior. The tempo should not be changed at all.

TheWhistler 11-16-2012 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breeder (Post 1069715)
Just to confirm, in numerous instances I too noticed (tinny, but still observable) rounding errors in regards to tempo markers and their musical position (yes, I have snapping to sample rate turned off).

And yes, ruler can get pretty wonky with a lot of tempo changes, drives me nuts! Hope it gets fixed.

For my initial task (transcribing and align) this is driving me crazy no matter how small the difference may be.

TheWhistler 11-16-2012 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwe (Post 1069858)
I decided to play around with this a bit and I'm kind of sorry I did. Here's what I think is happening.
The time selection runs from 0 to 14.97327555821019 secs on the timeline.

The 'Intro' region runs from 14.97327555820975 to 45.32796373675119 secs and is 30.35468817854144 sec long.

The two overlap by 0.00000000000044 sec. The tempo marker at measure 9 is at 14.97327555821 seconds and is in this overlap area. When the time selection is deleted it encroaches into the 'Intro' region, zaps the marker and shortens the region to 30.35468817854100 secs (our 0.00000000000044 second overlap).

I will now join you in dining on my brain but I suspect I'm going to walk away hungry.

Can I do somenthing to avoid that manually?

TheWhistler 11-16-2012 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers (Post 1070056)
I'm sure I saw a preference or project setting to snap tempo changes to bars?

Would that not help or did I miss the point? ;)

I am not sure if it helps. I want to have the tempomarker to stay at their relative positions aligned with the audio file.

mwe 11-16-2012 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWhistler (Post 1070105)
Then there would be a workaround. Just changing the tempo of the first marker manually to what it is intended to be instead of the overall tempo.
But that is not a good behavior. The tempo should not be changed at all.

Well, you would think so. When I tried that it didn't seem to have the same effect though. Bottom line is the action is not functioning as expected. I've never dealt with the issue tracker system but I think that's probably the next step.

Not to breathe fire on the coals but how does this not cause all kinds of problems with MIDI as well? Couldn't a MIDI event happen in one of these overlapping areas too?

mwe 11-16-2012 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWhistler (Post 1070109)
Can I do somenthing to avoid that manually?

Try this. Drag the edge of the time selection back to measure 8. Drag the tempo marker back to say 8.3. Drag the edge of the region forward to 10. Now drag the region, tempo marker and time selection back and let them snap to measure 9. Remove the time selection.

bradleyfilms 11-16-2012 05:07 PM

I'm not sure much can be done. Doesn't 0.00000000000044s equal 1 tick of the clock for a 2.3GHz computer i.e. the shortest time it can measure?
mwe, what is the speed your computer runs at?
Steve

mwe 11-16-2012 08:22 PM

I've done all this on an i3/2.13GHz laptop running Reaper 4.30x64 in W7x64. One interesting thing I noticed after moving the markers around, the time selection still ends at 14.97327555821019 but now the 'Intro' region begins at that same value. The tempo marker is moved to 14.973275558210188. Resnapping everything seems to align stuff much closer.

bradleyfilms 11-17-2012 03:55 AM

Thanks, maybe my maths was a bit off.
I'm wondering whether Reaper is measuring time too accurately.
This would mean a project with time markers wouldn't translate well on a different computer as the markers could fall between the ticks of that computer's clock.
Resnapping everything would solve this for that computer. But how accurate is a computer's clock? I'm out of my depth here! Do the ticks vary at all?
You findings suggest that Reaper takes all those places of decimals as significant. Maybe it shouldn't, and only use the first 6 or 9.
Brain hurts now!
Steve

TheWhistler 11-17-2012 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwe (Post 1070313)
Not to breathe fire on the coals but how does this not cause all kinds of problems with MIDI as well? Couldn't a MIDI event happen in one of these overlapping areas too?

One could expect this to make trouble in other situations too, but for me that never happende (and hopefully never will).

TheWhistler 11-17-2012 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwe (Post 1070622)
I've done all this on an i3/2.13GHz laptop running Reaper 4.30x64 in W7x64. One interesting thing I noticed after moving the markers around, the time selection still ends at 14.97327555821019 but now the 'Intro' region begins at that same value. The tempo marker is moved to 14.973275558210188. Resnapping everything seems to align stuff much closer.

I have a Core2Duo at 3 GHz. And mwe did experience quite exactly the same bahavior. The CPU speed should not make any difference, should it? I mean 486-games is another thing, we are talking about modern DAW.

TheWhistler 11-17-2012 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwe (Post 1070443)
Try this. Drag the edge of the time selection back to measure 8. Drag the tempo marker back to say 8.3. Drag the edge of the region forward to 10. Now drag the region, tempo marker and time selection back and let them snap to measure 9. Remove the time selection.

I have tried it.....and as far as I see it works but that is a BUG it can not be meant to be this way.
That is f.... arduous.

Thankīs for your help mwe. How did you get to that idea? I was so frustrated considering going back to CUBASE which I know has itīs own issues (side-chain...)

Thankīs again.

bradleyfilms 11-17-2012 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWhistler (Post 1070757)
I have a Core2Duo at 3 GHz. And mwe did experience quite exactly the same bahavior. The CPU speed should not make any difference, should it? I mean 486-games is another thing, we are talking about modern DAW.

Well this is what I'm wondering.
You see if Reaper is measuring time too accurately you might end up with markers falling between ticks of the clock, effectively disappearing.
I can see how this would give rise to the sort of errors we have been seeing.
Steve
EDIT Meh, forget it. Computers don't work that way. It's just a string of commands and I think all those decimal places on marker times are a red herring I've been focussing on.

bradleyfilms 11-17-2012 06:00 AM

Whistler, fixed it (I hope)
Place a 4/4 marker on the first bar of your intro i.e. just edit that first time marker.
That's what was missing.
Fingers crossed.
Steve

Tod 11-17-2012 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradleyfilms (Post 1070790)
Whistler, fixed it (I hope)
Place a 4/4 marker on the first bar of your intro i.e. just edit that first time marker.
That's what was missing.
Fingers crossed.
Steve

I just DLed the test project and it clearly showed that when the Remove contents of time selection is run it's deleting the tempo marker for bar-8 and inserting the project default tempo based on the Project Settings.

The simple fix here was to use the same tempo in Project Settings that shows on bar-8 before deleting the space.:)

mwe 11-17-2012 10:23 AM

Here's another wrinkle. The tempo marker at measure 5 has 'Allow a partial measure before this measure' checked. If you uncheck that then delete the time selection and create a new one, the remove action works as expected. It'll also work if you uncheck the box then drag the end of the time selection back to before measure 5 and then resnap it to measure 9.

I think all of these shenanigans are basically accomplishing the same thing, forcing Reaper to recalculate where things are in relation to the timeline.
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWhistler (Post 1070770)
How did you get to that idea?

Breeder's comments about rounding errors and my own observations about peculiar timeline behavior. It occurred to me that moving things around would cause things to be recalculated. I'm still not entirely sure if this really gets to the gist of the issue or if it's just a happy accident though.

TheWhistler 11-17-2012 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwe (Post 1070940)
Here's another wrinkle. The tempo marker at measure 5 has 'Allow a partial measure before this measure' checked. If you uncheck that then delete the time selection and create a new one, the remove action works as expected. It'll also work if you uncheck the box then drag the end of the time selection back to before measure 5 and then resnap it to measure 9.

I think all of these shenanigans are basically accomplishing the same thing, forcing Reaper to recalculate where things are in relation to the timeline.

Thatīs right, I must have clicked this accidentally, canīt remember. What does this cause, odd measures?

bradleyfilms 11-17-2012 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWhistler (Post 1070956)
Thatīs right, I must have clicked this accidentally, canīt remember. What does this cause, odd measures?

Lol, yes in a way.
You'd use it every time the preceding bar/measure isn't 4/4.
For example you have a bar in 7/8 followed by one in 4/4. If the grid is set the quarters you'd see 3.5 beats in one and the other beat markers would be offset by 1/2 a beat. That box stops this and has your bar start on the beat.
Steve

Justin 11-17-2012 12:22 PM

Thanks, duplicated this and will hopefully have it fixed soon.

nofish 11-17-2012 12:45 PM

Just for reference (though I guess it's the same issue), link to the older thread (along with schwa's comment in post #7)

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=111370

TheWhistler 11-17-2012 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin (Post 1071019)
Thanks, duplicated this and will hopefully have it fixed soon.

So I am confused now. Is this an issue/bug, or have I done something wrong?

Justin 11-17-2012 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWhistler (Post 1071039)
So I am confused now. Is this an issue/bug, or have I done something wrong?

There is a bug (less than ideal handling of tempo markers in certain instances when removing time), and it will be fixed or at least improved in the next builds.


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