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NI FM8: knobs/slider reset on FM8's "easy morph" page Issue Tools
issueid=828 08-04-2009 01:25 AM
Human being with feelings
NI FM8: knobs/slider reset on FM8's "easy morph" page
Every 2nd or 3rd movement the knobs/sliders are reset to "0".

When the knobs and sliders at the "easy morph" page of Native Instruments FM8 (v1.0.4)(running in Reaper 3.06) are set to a new value, at every 2nd or 3rd movement the knobs and sliders are reset to initial "0" value. With FM8 v1.0.3 the reset happened at every movement.

This bug is not occuring when Reaper is set to "default VST configuration windows to generic UI". So it is only appearing if FM8's own UI is used.
This bug seems to be Reaper-specific as the "easy morph" page works great with other VST hosts.

It would be really great if this could be fixed!
Issue Details
Issue Type Closed Issue
Project Deprecated REAPER issue tracker
Category Plugins
Status Not a Reaper Bug
Priority 10 - Lowest
Affected Version 3.06
Closed Version (none)
Yes votes 9
No votes 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

08-04-2009 07:40 AM
Human being with feelings
 
This bug almost made me go back to DP a few months ago !!
Working on the automation of sounds for an electro album turned into a nightmare because of this ...
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08-04-2009 11:52 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Yes, this bug really prevents me from using FM8 within Reaper.
I really hope there will be a fix soon!!
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08-05-2009 09:43 AM
Human being with feelings
 
I found out what causes the sliders to reset: in the preferences of REAPER under "VST" there is this "save full VST plug-in state if supported (recommended)" option. If I turn this off, the sliders and knobs on FM8's easy morph page work properly.

So it looks like this is a bug in saving the full plugin state of FM8. I hope this helps for bugfixing.

And actually it is not the number of movements but a certain periodic time when the reset happens. So maybe there is some kind of periodic plugin state save function (?) that causes this problem.
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08-05-2009 10:20 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisis-at-music
I found out what causes the sliders to reset: in the preferences of REAPER under "VST" there is this "save full VST plug-in state if supported (recommended)" option. If I turn this off, the sliders and knobs on FM8's easy morph page work properly.

So it looks like this is a bug in saving the full plugin state of FM8. I hope this helps for bugfixing.

And actually it is not the number of movements but a certain periodic time when the reset happens. So maybe there is some kind of periodic plugin state save function (?) that causes this problem.
Could the reset be linked to your project autosaving?

This would be a good bug to squish! :)
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08-05-2009 10:43 AM
Human being with feelings
 
No, I have autosaving disabled. The reset happens every 2 or 3 seconds which would be rather frequent for an autosave function. ;-)
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08-11-2009 12:23 AM
Human being with feelings
 
At least this bug has now status "confirmed". Really hope to see a bugfix in near future. :-)
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08-11-2009 06:19 AM
Administrator
 
Sorry, I unconfirmed it. I believe this is a bug in FM8. After you stop moving the controls, after about 1/2 second Reaper will ask the plugin for its current state and write an undo point. The plugin appears to be internally resetting those controls when it is asked for its state.

Disabling "save full VST state" avoids the problem because the plugin is never asked for its state, but that is not a good solution because most other plugins will prefer to have their full state saved. Disabling undo completely will also avoid the problem, but is obviously not ideal.

This is a category of plugin problem that we have seen before. The only workaround I can think of is if we add a per-plugin checkbox that lets you disable undo for that specific plugin. But in any case, I do not think this is a Reaper bug.
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08-11-2009 06:47 AM
Human being with feelings
 
schwa, thanks for your answer! Ok, I see that this may not be a Reaper bug but more a problematic interaction between the plugin and host.

I would be satisfied with a per-plugin switch for the undo function.


Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
Sorry, I unconfirmed it. I believe this is a bug in FM8. After you stop moving the controls, after about 1/2 second Reaper will ask the plugin for its current state and write an undo point. The plugin appears to be internally resetting those controls when it is asked for its state.

Disabling "save full VST state" avoids the problem because the plugin is never asked for its state, but that is not a good solution because most other plugins will prefer to have their full state saved. Disabling undo completely will also avoid the problem, but is obviously not ideal.

This is a category of plugin problem that we have seen before. The only workaround I can think of is if we add a per-plugin checkbox that lets you disable undo for that specific plugin. But in any case, I do not think this is a Reaper bug.
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08-11-2009 07:08 AM
Administrator
 
I can confirm that calling effGetChunk resets the knobs and sliders on the easy/morph screen of FM8. Reaper is simply asking the plugin for its state data, not telling it to set anything, but internally the plugin resets the controls.

.. note: I am running the demo version, it is possible that this behavior is intended in the demo (so you can't save/restore projects).
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08-11-2009 07:18 AM
Human being with feelings
 
On the NI website it says for the FM8 demo version: "Save and Total Recall functions disabled". But that means that you cannot save any presets, does it?

I have the full version running. So if there is any way where I can help or test something, please let me know.
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08-21-2009 11:01 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Any news on this problem...

I frequently use the Easy/Morph page on FM8, and would love to see a fix soon.
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08-22-2009 12:36 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Per-VST undo sounds a very reasonable solution to such type of problems. FR? :D
Reply
08-23-2009 03:33 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Yeah this needs a fix - I have to disable undo in prefs when I want to use FM8 - a checkbox per plugin might be useful (unless it can be done as a macro??)

Has anyone contacted NI about this?
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08-23-2009 03:42 AM
Human being with feelings
 
OK it's not occurring in my other hosts (Sonar, Tracktion, Podium) and they all have undo enabled so I think this is def a Reaper issue.

Why is it closed as a bug?
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08-23-2009 04:59 AM
Administrator
 
You move something on the GUI. Reaper then asks the plugin for its state. The plugin responds to the request by changing its knobs. I am certain that the plugin itself changes its own knobs when it is asked for its state.

If this isn't happening in other hosts they must have some different method of doing things, but it's the plugin's bug that it is responding to a state request by changing its state.
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08-23-2009 05:40 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Yes but if other hosts don't have this problem then the issue is to do with the interaction between plugin and host - clearly something is being done differently in Reaper compared to other hosts and if that' the way NI would expect a host to react I can see them saying it's Reaper's problem, not ours, and this going nowhere.
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08-23-2009 05:47 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Meanwhile - the good news if anyone has Kore 2 is that if you run FM8 inside Kore 2 and move the Easy/Morph controls this problem does not occur

(of course there is the bug with Kore I reported too where it doesn't update envelopes if the gui is closed - again Reaper specific)
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08-23-2009 08:09 AM
Human being with feelings
 
I found that if you use MIDI learn in FM8 and assign a slider or knob, this problem stops.
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08-23-2009 08:21 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ Jetflow
I found that if you use MIDI learn in FM8 and assign a slider or knob, this problem stops.
Yep - probably same as in using it in Kore
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08-23-2009 08:34 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ Jetflow
I found that if you use MIDI learn in FM8 and assign a slider or knob, this problem stops.
Yes, but if you move an unassigned easy morph slider, the reset happens again.

The thing is, that the reset is the same behaviour as if the "apply" button on the easy page has been pressed. So maybe the function Reaper uses to check the plugin state somehow activates the "apply" button of FM8. This would reset the sliders as that is how the apply was supposed to work. (I've learned that recently, wasn't really aware of it... ;-))
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08-23-2009 08:54 AM
Administrator
 
Maybe one of you FM8 users could ask NI for some support. The problem, in short, is that the host calling effGetChunk causes the plugin to reset the "easy morph" controls.
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08-23-2009 09:17 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Reply
11-08-2009 05:26 PM
Human being with feelings
 
So much for NI support. 3 months passed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
.. note: I am running the demo version, it is possible that this behavior is intended in the demo (so you can't save/restore projects).
This also happens in the full version.
Reply
01-30-2010 06:39 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
So much for NI support. 3 months passed!



This also happens in the full version.
A bit of feedback from NI would have been a nice touch, even if they don't think this is their fault.

I know what Schwa said earlier but I still find it hard to believe that NI are at fault when FM8 works flawlessly in every other DAW. I have tested it in Cubase 5, FL Studio and Ableton Live. Let's not forget that the last two feature plugin undo, like REAPER.
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01-30-2010 06:49 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
You move something on the GUI. Reaper then asks the plugin for its state. The plugin responds to the request by changing its knobs. I am certain that the plugin itself changes its own knobs when it is asked for its state.

If this isn't happening in other hosts they must have some different method of doing things, but it's the plugin's bug that it is responding to a state request by changing its state.
If there is another method of doing things, that method would in theory work with every plugin because I don't think Steinberg would have written special code for FM8, and therefore it would be superior to the current method.

But, yes, there must be something different about FM8 because every other plugin works fine in REAPER.
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02-10-2010 05:34 PM
Human being with feelings
 
i've saw on the ni forum this thing occurs also in cb5

addon
http://www.native-instruments.com/fo...ad.php?t=87181
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02-10-2010 05:41 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschenkel
i've saw on the ni forum this thing occurs also in cb5
Running Cubase 5.1.1 here and I can confirm that in Cubase 5 the values DO reset themselves when you try to save a patch!
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08-15-2010 03:55 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aMUSEd
That is annoying - NI closed the report after my post - fuck knows why
Reply
08-15-2010 03:59 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisis-at-music
schwa, thanks for your answer! Ok, I see that this may not be a Reaper bug but more a problematic interaction between the plugin and host.

I would be satisfied with a per-plugin switch for the undo function.
Did this happen? If NI are unwilling to do anything then this would be fine for me
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08-15-2010 04:02 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aMUSEd
Did this happen? If NI are unwilling to do anything then this would be fine for me
Not yet. Still not implemented.
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08-15-2010 09:43 AM
Human being with feelings
 
You guys should try calling NI support about it; I hear their phone support is much much better than e-mail/forum.
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08-15-2010 06:44 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Actually I did contact NI and they did reply, but I forgot to post back here. Here it goes.
Hello Scoox,

first of all I'm sorry for my late reply. Due to a high amount of requests the reply time is higher than you can usually respect when writing to us. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused for you.

When saving a sound (or song) the easy morph parameters are applied to the sound. This is the same as if you pressed the apply button.

Best regards
Stefan, Native Instruments Support Team
So basically what this means is that this behavior is by design. Still a lot of bull, if you ask me, because if automation causes the Easy Morph controls to be displaced from their centre positions and then I save my project, the changes will be applied destructively, and therefore the project won't sound the same next time I run the project.

To be honest I am no longer a big fan of German software. Steinberg and NI have given me the finger waaaaaay to many times.
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08-16-2010 02:37 AM
Human being with feelings
 
I think Cockos and NI should get into direct contact - NI is completely missing the point.
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08-16-2010 05:38 AM
Super Moderator (no feelings)
 
Sorry for your trouble guys but since there's nothing to be added to the actual bug description anymore, can we continue the discussion here please: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=63441 Thanks!
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