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Looped Section Generates Phantom MIDI Controller Value Issue Tools
issueid=3924 02-01-2012 05:21 AM
Human being with feelings
Looped Section Generates Phantom MIDI Controller Value
Reaper Generates Phantom MIDI Controller Value at start of Loop

If you record a MIDI Continuous Controller within a looped section,
Reaper outputs a mystery value at the start of every loop
(assigned to same controller but not actually recorded anywhere).
ie it resets that controller to zero each time whether you like it or not.

The situation is even worse when that controller is #7 (ie MIDI volume)
because it persists even when you delete the item.
In this case that value is not zero but 127 (maximum value possible).

This is all illustrated with commentry in my short video...
http://youtu.be/gvpBxfNUgtg

In the video you can see the persistent MIDI volume reappearing every time I record another controller on that track but sometimes (not in this demo video though) it gets generated each loop iteration even when the track is totally empty. Only a restart of Reaper removes this annoyance.
Issue Details
Issue Type Closed Issue
Project Deprecated REAPER issue tracker
Category MIDI recording and playback
Status Fixed
Priority 3
Affected Version 4.15
Closed Version 5.18
Yes votes 30
No votes 1
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

02-02-2012 11:52 PM
Human being with feelings
 
It does not help that I have unticked Preferences | MIDI Devices | Reset CC. When I hit stop/play there is no phantom note generated so I guess this setting is working, mind you each loop does send a start & stop SPP so perhaps the bug has something to do with this setting not working 100%.
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02-04-2012 05:14 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Have found a workaround.
You can simply filter out the zero and 127 values!
To do so I use a free Midi mapping utility called MidiOx.

Yes, the collateral damage is that you can never deliberately turn your controller completely down (zero) or completely up (127) but 1 and 126 will be good enough (barely audiblly different from 0 and 127).

So Reaper output goes via this instead of directly into my instrument. See attached .txm settings file that you load via Options | Data Mapping
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02-11-2012 09:36 AM
Human being with feelings
 
The workaround is only good if the values are zero or 127 but I have just found it can be *any* value.

If you loop (four bars say) and record a MIDI CC sweep in bar two, Reaper inserts a value at the very start of the loop (bar zero, say). That value will be identical to either the first one (plus or minus one) in that sweep from bar two or the last one (plus or minus one). That's fine..

If you are in "RECORD: MIDI replace"-mode and let it keep looping, all the CC contents of the loop (bar two in our example) are deleted (as expected) except for that one value at the loop-start which lingers. Although this can be annoying from my perspective it is understandable but the rationale of the following behaviour is hard to understand...

Even if you go into the editor, select-all then delete all the items on that track and hit record (this time without touching any CC) that phantom value reappears. Surely this is not meant to happen?
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02-11-2012 09:38 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sqgl
That value will be identical to the last one in that sweep (the CC sweep in the second bar).
I've just looked again at my video in slow motion and high resolution and noticed that is a different phenomenom.
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02-11-2012 10:49 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sqgl
Even if you go into the editor, select-all then delete all the items on that track and hit record (this time without touching any CC) that phantom value reappears. Surely this is not meant to happen?
If you again record a CC sweep in bar two, that phantom value does not change; ie it does not correspond to *any* of the CC values within the sweep.

Seems like I am just having a conversation with myself in this thread. Well at least it serves as notes to myself and for future others that may encounter this phenomenom.
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02-11-2012 11:32 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sqgl
If you loop (four bars say) and record a MIDI CC sweep in bar two, Reaper inserts a value at the very start of the loop (bar zero, say). That value will be identical to either the first one (plus or minus one) in that sweep from bar two or the last one (plus or minus one).
*SOMETIMES* Arghhhh!!!!!!! This does not always happen. Therefore it must be a bug. I don't know if it is predictable.
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02-13-2012 01:24 PM
Human being with feelings
 
I have experienced the same behavior, at least the unpredictable resets when looping. I haven't noticed CC's getting reset to values other than 0though.
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02-14-2012 08:06 AM
Human being with feelings
 
This bug keeps looking worse and worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqgl
Have found a workaround.
You can simply filter out the zero and 127 values!
To do so I use a free Midi mapping utility called MidiOx.
Mapping the output from Reaper is not good enough. You also need to map the MIDI going in. In particular you need to map zeros to ones (and 127's to 126's).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqgl
1 and 126 will be good enough (barely audiblly different from 0 and 127)
You cannot be sure you are getting a 1 or a 126 into Reaper just before your CC slider/knob hits an extreme of zero or 127.

This is because MIDI is so slow that, for instance, a fader sweep down will not generate all values, eg instead of 12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1,0 you may get 12,6,0 or even (in my experience) 12,0.
You need to turn that zero into a one before it gets into Reaper. Any zero (or 127) coming out of Reaper will definitely be the phantom value this bug report talks about and you can safely discard it, knowing that a near-enough value (one or 126) is "hot on its heels".
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02-18-2012 06:58 AM
Human being with feelings
 
The first time I've recognized this behavious was when I've used CC7 to control the volume of my Kontakt-instruments. It was kinda strange when the Volume Knob of the Instruments sometimes jumped to 12db without a given reason.

I'm looking for a solution for the problem right know. Resetting CC7 and CC10 can be avoided by using the Volume-Faders in the MCP for MIDI-Control, but things are getting pretty annoying when other CCs keep resetting themself whenever the loop starts the next round.

So, whenever I'm playing around with a knob it's going the be only the last changed CC that'll be reseted to 0 (or 127 and 64 when using CC7 or CC10). There's a small chance that there won't be any reset, I guess it's random.

There's no CC-resetting when there's no Midi-Item in the Track. Once there is recorded Midi inside the Loop, the CC-Reset might happen. The position of the loop doesn't matter.

Also, I'm already routing the Midi-Data trough Midi-OX to Reaper. Can't be the controller itself that causes the problem.

Did ya found anything yet? Drives me crazy to deal with bugs like that when you need something like a bullet-proof setup for loop-recording.
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02-18-2012 02:17 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Fleeshch have you tried my MidiOx workaround that I mentioned in the post just before yours?
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02-18-2012 02:46 PM
Human being with feelings
 
Already tried that. The range of the CC doesn't matter at all, the reset pehnomena also happens when I'm changing CC values between 1 and 126.

It looks like that a reset only happens whenever I'm changing a CC value while Reaper is playing some MIDI-notes of a MIDI-item in the track. Twisting my nobs without something playing in the background won't cause a reset.

Did the MidiOX workaround actually solve your problem?

EDIT:

Found out that there wasn't such a problem in Reaper 4.00 .
I'm going to use this version until the resetting bug is solved.
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02-19-2012 04:12 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeesch
Already tried that. The range of the CC doesn't matter at all, the reset pehnomena also happens when I'm changing CC values between 1 and 126.
It should not matter that the reset happens because you can filter out the reset (1 or 64 or 127) so they it those values are never sent to you Kontact instrument (regardless of whether those values are caused by this reset bug).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeesch
It looks like that a reset only happens whenever I'm changing a CC value while Reaper is playing some MIDI-notes of a MIDI-item in the track.
eg even notes from a previous take? (which are not actually played if you are recording in MIDI replace mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeesch
Twisting my nobs without something playing in the background won't cause a reset.
Same here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeesch
Did the MidiOX workaround actually solve your problem?
I think it did. Need more testing. Anyone else reading this in a week's time ought to ask me again if I have not reported back here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeesch
EDIT:
Found out that there wasn't such a problem in Reaper 4.0 .
I'm going to use this version until the resetting bug is solved.
Whoah, you are saying v4.00 does not have this problem? That's awesome. Thanks heaps for the tip. I only use Reaper to record controller movements so I don't need new, improved features. I may go back and get v4.0 myself.

EDIT: Be reverting to 4.0 you may have another problem because the changlog for v4.02 says "MIDI: fixed stuck notes when looping". So I wonder if the reset problem happens in 4.02. I wish the change log also listed bugs that are *introduced* (not just the ones fixed)
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02-19-2012 04:51 AM
Human being with feelings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sqgl
eg even notes from a previous take? (which are not actually played if you are recording in MIDI replace mode.
Couldn't test this one. I don't work with takes that much, but in my opinion there shouldn't be any CC reset events at all. Stuff like that drives my crazy. It's like the auto-correction in office software, only wit h MIDI in this case.


I didn't encounter any problems with stuck notes, whether I'm just playing live with my keyboard or recording notes while looping. Maybe it is because of the fact that I've switched to the simple "Record: Input" option instead of using Reapers special MIDI recording abilities (MIDI replace, ovderdub, etc.). Every take generates a new MIDI item rather than a new take, when I'm done recording my stuff I usually just glue everything together.

There was a member in this board that mentioned a fix in v4.111 regarding our little problem:
Quote:
MIDI: fixed sending of excess pitch/note/cc resets on loop
Might be that the developers accidentally introduced the reset bug instead of fixing it.
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03-02-2012 07:47 AM
Human being with feelings
 
I've just been advised to encourage any further discussion to be done at the original thread rather than here. I've muddied this ticket enough as it is.
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05-23-2012 06:00 PM
Human being with feelings
 
I'm new to computer music, and I got my first midi controller a few days ago. My use of Reaper has been fairly limited, but the first thing I wanted to do was play a loop and edit the controls of some vsti's to test it out, and I encountered this problem within 5 minutes of setting those capabilities up. I think this issue is pretty high priority- I hardly had to dig deep in any way. Please fix this!
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This petition for a change to Fixed was rejected
04-17-2016 11:04 AM
Human being with feelings
 
FIXED (5.18)
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